Andy Walsh and Kevin Schaefer dive into the fascinating world of unmade superhero films, specifically focusing on Kevin Smith's screenplay for "Superman Lives." This legendary script, which never made it to the big screen, is a treasure trove of comic book references and unique storytelling that reflects the quirky style of Smith. The duo discusses the plot, featuring Brainiac's quest for Kryptonian technology and Superman's epic showdown with Doomsday, all while exploring the themes of identity and sacrifice. They reminisce about the cultural impact of the "Death of Superman" narrative and how it resonates in today’s superhero landscape. Plus, every dime from this episode goes to support local libraries, proving that all reading counts, whether it's a screenplay, comic, or classic novel. So, grab your cape and get ready to explore a piece of cinema history that could have been!

The latest episode of Systematic Geekology dives headfirst into the wild world of unmade superhero films, specifically focusing on Kevin Smith's screenplay for Superman Lives—a project that tantalizingly danced on the edge of production before disappearing into the realm of ‘what could have been’. Andy Walsh and Kevin Schaefer kick things off with a cheeky banter about the geek culture that surrounds them, setting the tone for a laid-back yet insightful discussion. They explore the colorful history of Superman Lives, a film that was supposed to bring Nicolas Cage into the tights of the Man of Steel, and how it was influenced by comic book storylines like the Death of Superman. Through a witty exchange, they highlight the screenplay’s unique elements, including Brainiac's quest for power and the inclusion of various characters like Doomsday and Lex Luthor, all while emphasizing the creativity that Smith brought to the table amidst the chaotic demands of studio executives.

As they delve deeper into the screenplay, Andy and Kevin dissect the narrative structure, acknowledging its classic three-act setup while playfully critiquing its more outlandish elements, such as the infamous giant spider—a request from producer Jon Peters that has become a meme in itself. They share their thoughts on how the script blends humor with superheroics, portraying Superman as a character who grapples with both his heroic responsibilities and personal relationships, particularly with Lois Lane.

With a sprinkle of nostalgia, Andy reflects on the script's potential to resonate with audiences, had it been realized in the 90s, and the profound impact it might have had on the superhero genre. The duo wraps up with their personal reflections on the legacy of Superman Lives and its lasting influence on comic book adaptations, while promoting the importance of reading in all its forms, aligning perfectly with their mission of supporting public libraries through the episode's proceeds.

Takeaways:

• In this episode of Systematic Geekology, Andy and Kevin dive deep into the screenplay for Superman Lives, exploring the wild, untamed ideas that never made it to the big screen.
• The discussion highlights how Kevin Smith's script embodied a unique blend of comic book lore, humor, and heartfelt character moments, particularly between Clark Kent and Lois Lane.
• Superman Lives serves as a fascinating case study of a film that almost was, illustrating the challenges and creative decisions that define Hollywood's tumultuous relationship with superhero adaptations.
• Listeners can appreciate how the episode ties back to the podcast's mission—promoting literacy and the importance of reading in all forms, including screenplays and comics.
• The conversation touches on the significant cultural impact of the Death of Superman storyline and how its treatment in Smith's script reflects the era's comic book landscape.
• With proceeds from the episode supporting public libraries, the hosts remind us that engaging with literature in all its forms is vital for community enrichment and personal growth.

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Systematic Geekology

Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.

Foreign.

Cage's Superman, the greatest what if in cinema history.

Do you have any other unmade superhero movies on your mind?

Well, we are going to be talking about one of those today on another episode of Systematic Ecology.

We are the Priest of the Geeks.

And I am very happy to be here with one of my favorite geekologists.

I am Kevin Schaefer, and I am here with Andy Walsh to talk about Kevin Smith's unmade Superman Lives script.

There's a lot to talk about about this story, but Andy, how are you tonight?

I am doing pretty well.

We are in a geeky weekend.

Yesterday was free Comic Book day.

Tomorrow is May 4th be with you.

So it's an exciting time and looking forward to having this chat with you.

It's one of the best times of the year.

I was just saying I didn't get a chance to make it out to pre Comic Book Day yesterday because it was cold and rainy here.

But were you able to go?

We did make it to Big Bang Comics in Swickley, Pennsylvania, and picked up a few freebies and picked up a few trades of Kieran Gillan and Casper Winegard's Power Fantasy.

Okay, right on, right on.

Very cool.

And well, that actually perfect, very topical for today's episode because this is an episode of all reading counts where we look at different forms of literature, be it comics, be it manga, be it a novel, short story, a screenplay, which we'll be talking about today.

So, Andy, was the comics you got there, the last piece of literature you read, like within the last 24 hours or did anything else you want to give a shout out to?

Yeah, no, actually, I'll cheat.

Because the last thing that I finished reading, which was, and all this was after I read those three comic books, was George Takei's comic memoir, they Called Us Enemy, about his childhood in the internment camps for Japanese Americans, or Japanese, not Americans as some viewed them, but people living in the United States of Japanese ancestry during World War II, and then also some of his life after that as well, but mainly focused on his experiences in that camp.

So that's the last thing I finished.

But the first, the most recent thing that I actually read, but I haven't finished it yet, is from my background is kind of cutting this off a little bit.

But friend and sometimes guest of the pod, Thomas J. Org, has a new book, A Systematic Theology of Love, Volume One, God and Creation.

So I started that this afternoon.

Oh, that sounds fascinating because I. Yeah, for listeners, viewers out there, we had Dr. Ord on an episode last year that me and Andy were on discussing Minority Report.

It's one of my favorite episodes we've done.

And that was a fascinating conversation.

So I. I look forward to.

I know he puts out a lot of books on a regular basis, so I look forward to checking that out.

Yes, he is a very prolific writer.

Well, speaking of prolific writers, for me, I haven't finished yet, but I'm reading.

I've read a lot of David Sedaris over the years, and I actually just saw him at the do a show at Raleigh Memorial Auditorium about.

Not this past weekend, but the one before.

He's one of my favorite writers.

I met him a few years ago at a book signing.

This, the one I'm reading now is an older one of his called Barrel Fever.

Um, but I. Andy, are you familiar with Sedaris and his.

Like he.

I don't believe I've read any of his writing.

I mean, I'm a little bit familiar with him as a cultural figure, but.

Right, right.

I mean, pretty much.

If you've ever visited New Yorker or.

Yeah, like.

Or npr.

I mean, you probably come across his essays at some point, right?

Yeah, I mean, like, he's a. Yeah.

And he's particularly iconic in North Carolina because he grew up in Raleigh.

But yeah, he's a humor essayist.

And a lot of his works, like some, it's complete like fiction and like delves into absurdity.

And he has just this relentless wit that carries throughout his writing.

And then a lot of his other essays are based on things he actually experienced.

But he does it through a very humorous lens.

So I love his stuff.

So Bear Elfievre is one of his older collections and again, I've read most of the ones like in recent years and he has one coming out this month as well.

So that's what I'm reading now.

As far as finished, like I'm trying to think because I've been reading a lot of comics, I guess.

One I revisited recently was the first volume of American Vampire, written by Scott Snyder and Stephen King.

That was back when Snyder was sort of starting out, like around.

Like around the time he started writing Batman.

And this was a book for Vertigo, illustrated by Raphael Albuquerque and fascinating horror Western.

Yeah, I mean, it's Stephen King co writing it, to my knowledge, one of the only comics he's co written.

He's had many of his works adapted into comics, but this is one he directly helped get off the ground and co created.

So I love that series.

It was a lot of fun revisiting the first volume.

And then also within a topical here I've been going back through some of Jeff, John, Superman, so a lot of comics.

I have the DC Universe app now, so I've been reading a ton on there.

But yeah, so I.

A lot of great literature out there.

And that's what we're gonna talk about tonight with again, this one specifically with the screenplay.

So, Andy, thank you so much for sharing and for our listeners and viewers, please, you know, like rate, review the show wherever.

If you're watching on YouTube, if you are listening on any of your preferred podcast platforms.

We really appreciate it.

You know, tell your friends about the show.

If you like us, hey, give a.

Give us a shout out.

And you can also become a financial supporter.

Click on the link in the description to the fourth Wall site.

And we want to thank one of our financial supporters tonight, Aaron Hardy.

Thank you so much for supporting the show.

You rock.

And yeah, if you do become a financial supporter, you can get a shout out on the show and you'll get other benefits and perks.

So, yeah, check it out and you can again woods the network.

This is an episode of our All Reading Counts series and any purchases of our All Reading Counts merchandise, bonus questions or donations are marked.

All reading counts will go to supporting our local libraries.

So this is a series I know Andy and I are really happy to be a part of for that reason.

So go check out all that again.

Links are in the description and we really appreciate the support.

Well, so Andy, before we get into this specific topic, you know, I like you especially, you know, you're very much an academic and I know you know reading means a lot to you and I.

And so I guess I know it's a like big broad question about like why reading is important, but is there anything you want to add to that from a personal perspective and for you about like just how you fell in love with literature?

Yeah, I mean, I guess I would just say my memories are more strongly associated with my kids now than my own experience learning to read.

But seeing them learn how to read and how that opened up the opportunity to engage with different kinds of worlds and different kinds of ideas and something without giving away too many personal details for Some people, language, communication.

Speech communication is a little bit more challenging.

Figuring out what to say is a little bit more challenging.

And being able to read and absorb the written word and then use that to construct how you speak to other people can be very helpful for some people, old, young and otherwise.

And something that we saw personally in our family.

And so, yeah, I think that is one specific.

It's not going to mean as much to everybody, but that's definitely one specific benefit that reading can have and learning how to read can have for some kind of people is just helping them to then engage more fully with the other people around them.

I love that.

So well played.

And you know, Andy, you and I were just talking before recording.

Like I. I took my niece and nephew to Barnes and Noble today and I.

And then they sell a lot of like toys and puzzles at Barnes Noble as well, which is nothing wrong with that.

But I told them day, I'm like, we're getting books.

Okay, so you guys got, you get it.

You get a coloring book, that's really fine.

But like, but let's get something, you know, with words, with pictures and.

And they were very excited and similar to you.

It's like I'm in that phase now where watching them grow up and you know, getting.

Seeing them learn how to read, learn how to really appreciate stories and you know, they're like my.

Because my needs and nephews are 9, 6 and 5.

And so particularly with my younger nephew, I read him a lot of children's books that we have out in the playroom and it's one of my favorite things like to do.

And I just love, you know, seeing their reactions, seeing which stories resonate with them.

It is such a cool thing to be a part of, especially in this day and age where there are so many technological distractions and you know, other areas that really are trying to capture kids attention.

And when you have a physical book in their hands that they can appreciate, look at the art, look at the words.

Yeah, there's fewer things that bring me as much joy as that.

Um, so I think, you know, that that's absolutely one of the things I think about a lot when we talk about the importance of literature, the importance of reading and there.

And you know, we call this series All Reading Counts because we're not.

The idea here is to not be.

The idea here is to not be snobby.

Like, you know, we don't have to have a differentiation between quote unquote, high literature and you know, something like what we're discussing today, which is a screenplay draft.

Like, I mean, all reading counts.

All reading, I think, helps you activate your imagination.

It helps see ideas expressed.

And, you know, we, Andy and I are big comic book readers, and I think there's still, I mean, the stigma around that has, I think, decreased.

But there are still people out there who are like, oh, well, you're an adult who reads comics, you know, like.

Well, like, like, come grow up, you know, and, you know, I always.

My rebuttal to that is, well, comics is a medium, and it's a form of storytelling that has just as much merit as a novel.

And, you know, whatever you're reading, I. I think it's just important to embrace it.

It's important to, you know, see what you gravitate toward.

And, and we read all kinds of books.

I mean, you know, Andy is very much an academic, so you're reading heavy level science books at times, and then you can also be reading a comic or a light novel.

And I think all of those things matter.

Yeah.

And I would just add language and abstract thinking are one of the human superpowers, and anything that you can do to expand your abilities in that regard, I think is worthwhile.

I love it.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So, yeah, I.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm very excited for this topic.

We are talking about Kevin Smith tonight and specifically his unproduced screenplay draft for a Superman film that he wrote in the 90s.

And I said Andy earlier.

He's probably one of my most influential figures in pop culture through his movies, through his comics work.

And actually I discovered Kevin Smith.

Well, actually, my.

My very first interaction with.

With Smith in anything was, oddly enough, in his cameo in Live Free or Die Hard, which I saw in, like, middle school.

That was like, my first interaction with them.

And it wasn't long after that that Comic Bookman premiered.

And so I started watching that.

And that was before I watched any of his movies.

But later I watched his movies.

I've seen him perform both comedy shows, and then I did his road shows for Clerks 3 and Jay and Silent Bob Reboot, where he went around to different theaters across the country to show these movies.

And then with comics, I've read pretty much all those you have on the screen there.

His Daredevil run is one of my favorites.

And then the Batman 66 meets the green Hornet that you have there on the screen.

And for listeners, he's got.

Andy's got several covers of comics that Kevin Smith has written and the Batman 66 meets the green Hornet.

That's actually the trade paperback that I brought when I got that picture with him, GalaxyCon, and he signed it for free.

He was like the nicest guy.

And yeah, that was.

He wrote on the trade, kevin, I love you.

So, yeah, we have that guy.

But, yeah, he's one of my favorite pop culture icons.

And what's kind of your background with Kevin Smith?

Because I feel like all comic readers have some kind of history with him.

Sure, yeah.

I mean, I've definitely read some of his comics, his Daredevil, some of his other Marvel and DC work.

I don't know that I've read any of his View Askew comics.

And I'm not the biggest Kevin Smith movie buff.

I've seen some of them, but not all of them exhaustively.

I've not disliked anything necessarily that I've come across with Kevin Smith.

And yes, by all accounts, he's super nice and super enthusiastic and very positive about his geek sides and encouraging other people's geekiness.

So I don't necessarily have anything bad to say.

I haven't necessarily engaged with all of his work to the same level.

And I haven't had the opportunity to meet him in person, although that's probably on me, given how often he is out and about.

He does if he, he's one of those characters that if you want to meet him, you probably can.

I mean, he.

He goes to shows still regularly.

And I, I love what you said there.

That's.

I think, why I gravitated toward him so much as one of my favorite pop culture people, is that he is so, you know, unabashedly geeky and positive with this.

You know, he's always been someone who, you know, encourages that fandom and that love of whether it's, you know, comic, you love a movie, whatever.

And he tries to really foster an environment of positive fandom that unfortunately is very toxic in a lot of circles.

And he tries to kind of counteract that.

So he's always very positive in his podcast, at his live shows.

He's just a goofy storyteller.

And also, I mean, when he went, I mean, this is very.

And yeah, he's talked about this publicly numerous times, but it actually was a big source of inspiration for me when I got diagnosed with diabetes a few years ago.

And I was kind of Terrified about how to wrestle with that.

And he was actually a big source of inspiration for changing my lifestyle and getting like my diet under control.

And so, you know, he's been not just a heavy influence on me in terms of his work, but as a person he's had, you know, a profound impact on me.

So I, yeah, I like it and I, I like, I only met him briefly at that show, but it was definitely one of like my favorite people I've met at conventions.

So I'll always treasure that photo.

But yeah, but you know, and that's discretion too for anyone not familiar with his movies.

Not exactly family friendly.

So, you know, not really one you want to pop like Clerks or Chasing Amy on with the whole family.

But if you, if you're an adult and you're okay with some very raunchy off the walls humor, you can give it a shot.

But, but yeah, so that, so yes, I do have a, you know, a lot long standing history with Kevin Smith and his work and his influence on me.

But yeah, so looking at this script, so just to introduce it and maybe Andy, if you give a plot summary, but this was a script that Kevin Smith wrote in the 90s when Warner Brothers was looking to reboot Superman.

They had had multiple struggles after the Christopher Reeve films had wrapped up and particularly the fourth one kind of tanked the franchise.

And this was also in the wake of the Death of Superman comic, which was a big moment in pop culture.

And that storyline was very much on Hollywood's eyes to adapt in some form or fashion.

And so at this point, Kevin Smith had been an established indie filmmaker, had made Clerks, had made Mall Rats and Warner Brothers turned to him after several going through several other drafts from various writers and they turned to him to draft a screenplay.

There's also a lot more to this story because there's actually a full documentary called the Death of Superman Lives.

What happened?

If you want.

Because this was a movie that after this we're going to focus on the Kevin Smith draft tonight.

But after that draft and went through several other writers, it had Tim Burton attached to direct, it had Nicholas Cage attached to play Superman and it was almost to the point of production before it got canceled.

So you can go for to see that documentary or other YouTube videos.

If you're on YouTube, you can see those lovely images of Nicholas Cage as Superman when he was doing the prep work.

It's still, I think cinema was robbed of this incarnation of the character.

And we'll talk about that a little more.

But, but yeah, this was One of those superhero movies that came this close to happening before it fell apart for mainly financial reasons and other factors that weighed on Warner Brothers, on the minds of Warner Brothers executives.

But, Andy, would you be able to give a brief plot summary of this script draft, particularly that Kevin Smith wrote?

Sure.

So, you know, it's a very clear three act kind of movie.

The first act is Brainiac is traveling through space and needs energy to power himself and to feed on himself to be able to continue existing or continue having a physical body.

And so he's constantly in search for more energy.

And in particular, he is searching for Kryptonian technology that we know as the Eradicator.

He just knows it as something that Jor El of Krypton, Superman's dad, has created.

And the two of them had a history.

And so he's searching for that technology because he believes that will be the source that can kind of be his perpetual energy source.

So he gets some information that leads him to believe that that would be on Earth, thanks to a broadcast to all extraterrestrials from Lex Luthor.

And that brings him to Earth, which leads to a team up with Lex Luthor and a confrontation between Superman and Doomsday, who seems to be just sort of one of many alien creatures that Brainiac has in his menagerie on his.

On his skull shaped spaceship.

And so the first act ends with the Superman Doomsday fight that some of us may be familiar with from the comic books that led to the death of Superman.

And so that.

So then the world believes that Superman is dead.

And in fact he is only mostly dead.

And his death activates the technology that was his ship that brought him to Earth that turns into a sort of humanoid robot that identifies himself as the Eradicator, or it's identified in the script as the Eradicator.

Forget actually, if he calls himself that.

And he go the Eradicator robot, Android, humanoid life form of some kind, technological life form of some kind, goes and finds Superman and helps him to heal and recover.

But that process is stymied by the fact that Brainiac has shut off the sun, has blocked out the sun, so all of Earth is in darkness.

And Brainiac claims that this is to hide Earth from an alien invasion that he's protecting them from.

And once that invading armada passes by in a few days, he'll turn the sun back on.

He's hoping that that will give him enough time to track down this eradicator and take it over for his own purposes.

And so that's kind of the second act is how Lois and Jimmy Olsen are dealing with the fact that you.

Brainiac has kind of taken over and blocked out the sun and all this other stuff that's going on, while Superman and the Eradicator kind of work together to heal Superman and figure out how to.

How to strike back.

And then the third act is the big confrontation between Superman and Brainiac in which Brainiac unleashes also from his menagerie.

I forget the exact name for some kind of Thanagarian creature that fills the role of the giant spider that producer Jon Peters insisted needed to appear in this film.

And so you have this big final confrontation between Superman and a giant spider puppeted or inhabited by Brainiac.

And to the surprise of no one, Superman is triumphant.

Spoilers for a movie that you'll never be able to see.

Superman wins, and, you know, Brainiac is left to lick his wounds, and Lex is off to prison for his role in.

In all, you know, essentially taking over the world.

I think it was the Thanagarian snare beast, I want to say.

That sounds right.

Good job.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which.

It's a hilarious story.

Like, Jon Peters, I think, you know, like, very controversial figure, but for whatever reason, he insisted on putting giant spiders into a lot of his movies and seemed pretty obsessed with it.

I do love that Kevin Smith, when he was given this command to have Superman fight a giant spider, he was able to pull it from the DC mythos and be like, all right, well, it comes from Thanagar.

That's probably one of my favorite things about this script is that because there's even a cameo from Batman, there's the.

The Legion of Doom is at the beginning.

It was a lot of comic references embedded into the script.

And this was long before the MCU or when, you know, comic book movies were a more prevalent and also, you know, pulled from different eras and characters from the universe.

It wasn't just like if you had a Batman movie or you had a Superman movie, okay, you had Batman and Joker, you had Superman and Lex.

But this one throws everything from Brainiac, Doomsday, the Eradicator, Legion of Doom, Batman.

All of that is present in this story.

So, you know, I was looking at.

Well, Andy, I'm curious, too, because, like, I've read a lot of screenplays.

I mean, I.

Because I do both.

I write graphic novel scripts, and then I've done playwriting, and I've attempted screenwriting.

So I've read a lot of scripts in my lifetime and grew up a theater Kid, I'm curious for you, like a.

Have you read a lot of screenplays?

And then for you, what was it like reading this one specifically?

And do you think that the format worked for you?

Yeah, so, you know, I did some theater in high school and a little bit in college, so I had some experience reading theatrical scripts.

I'm a little bit foggy because it hasn't, certainly hasn't been anything recently, but I pretty sure that at some point, like in college or something like that, I read, you know, one or two or three or three movie scripts here and there, but not, not a big part of my reading that said, you know, I was familiar enough and with the flow of these kinds of things and what to expect that, you know, it worked for me.

I tend to be, you know, one of the reasons why I like movies and comic books is that I'm not the most visual thinker.

I don't do well translating like lots of descript into visuals.

So I'm very happy when talented visual artists can do that for me.

And so like reading a screenplay, the fact that there's not a ton of description or whatever like that doesn't really.

It just helps it kind of go smoother because it's kind of the bits that, that make the most sense to me or that I understand the most and I'm not kind of fussing over, well, here's a little bunch of description that I don't really know what to do with because it's not really forming a picture in my head.

And so, yeah, so that, that part doesn't bother me.

You know, do I have a great, you know, did I see the movie in my head as I was reading it?

No, not really.

But, you know, I could follow the, the plot, I could follow what the, what the characters motivations were, what, you know, what they were trying to do, what they were getting across each other.

And so, you know, it all worked pretty well for me.

And it makes it a quick read.

Yeah, you know, I enjoyed it.

Do I, do I deeply regret that I didn't get to actually see this movie made?

Probably not.

You know, and I think that that's an interesting thing to keep in mind too, is that it's, it's actually just a draft of a screenplay and that almost certainly, you know, either Kevin Smith or the Tim Burton or whomever like that, you know, we're seeing kind of somewhere in the process that.

And not the finished film.

And so it's entirely possible that had they gone further with making this movie that, you know, improvements or changes would have made.

Obviously there were.

I mean, there were subsequent drafts by other people, but since none of them ever got made, it's hard to say what was closer or what would have worked or whatever.

But, yeah, there were definitely.

There were things in this that I thought were good.

There were things in this I was like, ah, maybe on another draft or two, you might have wanted to make some improvements to this.

But, yeah.

What.

Had you.

Had you read this before or what were your thoughts about this?

Sure.

So I did read this script, I think, a few years ago when I was going down this rabbit hole of this movie specifically.

And I've seen the documentary.

You know, this is like one.

I mean, I'm very fascinated with unmade movies.

Like, not just comic book ones, but, like, when we put up the poll for.

Because I came up with the idea for this one and when we put up the poll, we had on there, like, Darren Aronofsky and Frank Miller's Batman year one, we had William Gibson's Alien 3.

There's also.

What else?

The Napoleon one.

Who wrote that?

I'm trying to look.

Kubrick.

Right, Kubrick.

Stanley Kubrick's Napoleon.

Like, so I've mentioned it on the show before, but, like, I follow a YouTube channel called.

Called Bullets and Blockbusters, which, like, that's almost entirely what it's about is like, what could have been.

You know, Bryan Singer's X Men Last Stand as an example or.

Or like George Miller's Justice League.

He goes into a lot of comic book movies and a lot of other blockbusters that almost got made and didn't come to fruition.

So I am fascinated with this stuff.

So I, you know, I do enjoy going through scripts like this, whether they're good or not.

And.

Yeah, so I read this one a few years ago and then I reread it in preparation for this.

And like you said, I mean, it's very much a draft, you know, and it kind of lays the blueprint.

And I think there is a quote, I think, from.

I think it was like, Gene Wilder said this when he was writing Young Frankenstein with Mel Brooks.

Mel Brooks told him that when you've completed a first draft of a screenplay, what you have is a concept.

And like, you know, so it's very much not the finished project product at all.

Scripts go through, you know, many drafts before they, you know, go to the shooting stage.

And then after that, there's other changes.

And, you know, the movie isn't finalized until it's edited.

So this is very much just kind of a blueprint for what could have been.

And then, like, like I mentioned, there were two other writers that came on to work on drafts for this movie before it got canceled.

I know Dan Gilroy was the final writer on this one, who's Tony Gilroy's brother, and he wrote and directed Nightcrawler.

So, yeah, it went through different iterations, but, yeah, looking at this one as it is, yeah.

I mean, I like.

I always love Kevin Smith dialogue.

So I think there are some really strong scenes here.

My favorite being when Clark and Lois are, like, on a date on the top of Mount Rushmore.

I think that was just, like, a nice visual cue and it captured the characterization of Clark and Lois really well.

And I was also, when I'm rereading this, I was, like, trying to reread it in Nicholas Cage's voice and trying to, like, see what.

Imagine what his interpretation of the character would have been like.

So that was kind of fun to imagine.

You know, I think he.

I mean, he clearly loves the characters in the universe and he brings a lot of that to life here.

I.

As far as, like, would this specific script made a good movie?

Probably, you know, like you said, it needed a lot of work.

But I think this would have been a nice addition to the Animated Series at the time, or even as, like, an animated movie.

I think it would have worked really well in that universe.

It had a lot of the tenants.

But to do this as a big blockbuster and, you know, convey it to mainstream audiences, it, you know, I think it would have been hit or miss it still, again, is up there in terms of my most fascinated, fascinating.

Like, I do wish I could have seen this movie, like, the final version after it got through rewrites and, you know, was ready to shoot.

I do wish it had gotten made.

I think it would have been fascinating.

But, you know, alas, we will never know.

Exactly.

And then the only really callback to it was in the Flash movie a few years ago.

They did have that little.

In the montage sequence.

They had Nicolas Cage, Superman, there it is fighting the giant spider.

So I cannot say that that was exactly what I wanted because it was a pretty, very bad CG rendition there.

I know that's a whole other topic, but it was.

It was a nice homage.

But also, yeah, I do wish if Warner Brothers Animation could like come back and just go ahead and make this as an animated movie.

I know they've done Death of Superman and Reign of Superman, but this would be a fun, like, you know, you don't need that much budget.

Still get Nicholas Cage to voice it.

I think that would be pretty cool.

But yeah, so I mean there are definite things I like in the, in the script.

I like the unabashed comic book influences here.

It's not trying to be too gritty.

You know, the spider thing was a mandate.

But again I, I do like that the spider here comes from.

Or the, the snare beast comes from Thanagar.

I thought that was cool.

Yeah, I like a lot of the dialogue between Brand Lois.

I think Lex and Brainiac are also pretty well characterized.

But you know, similar problems to what would happen later on with like BVs and stuff.

It is, it is pretty overstuffed and there's a lot of things happening.

And you know, the inclusion of the death of Superman and storyline was very much a product of the time.

And you know, again, I.

Like I said earlier, Hollywood was eyeing to adapt that story, so it was kind of inevitable.

But yeah, I think, I mean, I think it's a perfectly enjoyable read.

And also like you were talking about, I think different screenwriters have different approach in terms of like some are very detail oriented and lay out a lot of visual cues like either.

I mean this is a case of a director, but James Gunn, when he writes his scripts, he even includes the songs in them into the script which, I mean it's not recommended for solo screenwriters.

But when you're also direct the movie, directing the movie, you kind of have a little more creative control there.

So I'm always fascinated to see different writers approaches.

But I think with Kevin Smith, his scripts are same with the comics are very dialog oriented and he kind of likes the visuals to be in the hands of comic book artists.

And yeah, like he, I mean he typically directs his own movies, but they're typically low budget, you know, indie comedies and.

Yeah, so I mean the dialog is the more, you know, defining factor of his scripts.

Yeah, there were definitely some nice flourishes there.

There was maybe some moments where I felt Superman was a little bit too Kevin Smithy.

Yeah, very, very.

And that's the kind of thing that maybe would be cleaned up on other passes or Nicolas Cage or whoever wound up performing might have some input on that as well.

I think my biggest issue with it was that for a team up of Lex Luthor and Brainiac, it Just didn't feel like a very intelligent plot.

I agree there.

Yeah, it felt like we were told that Brainiac was very smart, but mostly that was through the eradicator going, oh, this computer code is very complicated or whatever.

But what we actually shown was not quite that.

And blotting out the sun just is one of those, like, how does that actually work?

And is that really such a good idea?

And why does it, you know, since Superman and the Eradicator wind up going into space, why don't they just go around the shield that's blocking the sun so that Superman could get supercharged up again?

Like, you know, it seemed like there were some pretty easy ways around.

All relied, you know, the.

The passing alien armada just relies on a big, like, hollow hologram projector in the sky.

Like, you know, so, you know, I think we're meant to understand Brainiac is smart because you can invent this technology that can do this thing.

But, like, his plot actually doesn't seem to be very, very smart.

So, yeah, that was.

That's the sort of thing that I felt like, oh, this maybe could be cleaned up a bit.

There's a lot of the sciencey stuff kind of feels more like placeholder Joss Whedon's science, the sciencey science as a.

As a reminder to come back and have somebody else put in actual things or himself do the research to put in later.

And yeah, like you said, the death of Superman, that really feels like it needed to have been its own.

That should be where the first act ends.

That should be the end of a film.

The audience should be left wondering about the fate of Superman rather than just having it kind of resolved three pages later in the script that, oh, yeah, Superman's not really dead.

And yes, we all know that they're not really going to kill Superman.

But I think it's hard to get across now after we've been through so many iterations of high profile comic book characters dying and coming back.

And superheroes.

Comic book superheroes are such big pop culture things.

It's hard to get across what it was like in whatever it was 93, 94, when the death of Superman happened, because there had been.

Prior to that point, there had been comic book deaths that stuck.

Comic book characters had died and not come back.

And this whole idea that, well, they'll all eventually come back wasn't as big of a.

A cliche yet.

And so the death of Superman was reported on the news.

Like, local news stations covered it, as if this character was dead and never coming Back and DC Comics had just killed off Superman and people were reacting to it, readers and the general public, whatever, were reacting to it as if this was the last that we had ever seen of Superman on the page.

I think nowadays, if you tried to sell that to the news, they'd be like, yeah, we've heard all this before, and then he's going to come back six months later.

But people didn't have quite that same expectation.

And then DC Comics pivoted and dragged out the return of Superman for longer because it was such an impactful thing, and people really were struck by it.

And so they.

I think, correctly.

And yes, part of it is perhaps a cynical commercial decision, but I think there was also a good storytelling element there of letting people kind of experience that a little bit longer and process through how they felt about that.

I still maintain that the year between Infinity War and Endgame is an important part of that storytelling, even though, you know, that those characters are not.

That half of the universe is not going to stay snapped.

Having to sit with that for a year of like, well, who is going to come back and who isn't and how is it going to happen and how are they going to do it in a way that.

That it matters, you know, and that it doesn't just sort of, you know, undo what happened before?

Like, I, you know, I think that was.

That was just as much a part of the story as what was actually filmed and put on screen.

And so I think.

I think it would have been a missed opportunity to do a Death of Superman story in the way that it was done in this.

In this screenplay, by just kind of having it, you know, have the death, return and all of that wrapped up in.

In a single.

A single film.

I agree 100%.

I mean, you know, and like you said, I mean, I just.

I just thought about it too, like, in terms of particular DC characters that had died and it would still be a long time where they came back.

I mean, Barry Allen, it was what, like a 20 year gap between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Rebirth?

I think.

Yeah, something like that.

And so, yeah, the death of Barry Allen, we were, you know, when the death of Superman happened, the death of Barry Allen was.

Was.

We were closer to the death of Barry Allen than the return of Barry Allen, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

Right, right.

You know, it had been not very long before that that we had voted with our 95 cents a minute or whatever it was to kill Jason Todd.

So, you know, yeah, it was definitely more in the Zeitgeist that comic book characters could die, period.

You know, and not this business of, oh, well, yes, that's a fake out at the end of issue one of issue 12 or whatever.

And they'll be back in issue 14.

Absolutely.

And you're totally right about.

Even when you know, like, okay, it's gonna be okay in the very end, you.

It makes more of an impact to actually have that grief and that loss matter at least, you know, for some time, I think.

Yeah.

A two parter would have been the.

And could have been pretty epic if they had done a two part covering Death and Return of Superman in the 90s.

I think that would have been actually something special if they did it right.

Because you're absolutely right.

I mean, I felt the impact of Infinity War and the wait up until Endgame.

And that's why we were all cheering so much in that last hour of Endgame during the portal scene.

It didn't feel cheap.

It actually felt earned because we had to go in real time with this year long gap.

And then especially at the beginning of Endgame, when you watch the five years later caption come up, you're broken for your favorite characters because they have to be in this period of grief for so long.

And for them, they have no reason to believe that anyone, anyone is ever coming back.

They.

They think it's permanent.

So I.

That was genuinely moving storytelling the way they did it.

Yeah, yeah, I love it.

So I know I could go on and on, but is there anything else in terms of themes about this script in particular or anything else you want to say?

But I think that was a great point about, you know, its handling of the death of Superman storyline.

Yeah.

The only sort of other thematic thing that stood out to me that was interesting was Superman kind of grappling with why.

Why he does what he does and why he doesn't spend more time, you know, helping people.

You know, that Superman has to take time off or whatever.

And that would echo kind of some of the things.

And then his relationship with Lois kind of helps center him and helps frame how he relates to the rest of humanity.

Was interesting because that would kind of come up in the Matrix Reloaded and the Matrix Revolutions with Neo and Trinity and so forth.

And so I thought that was an interesting sort of hint or precursor to that movie storyline.

Another Superman esque character and storyline and a very similar theme of how do you care about all of humanity, but when you are a finite person who can't actually personally know all of humanity, how do you balance that with your relationships to specific people around you.

I love that.

Yeah, there were.

It's great comparison with the, the Matrix movies.

I didn't even think about that.

But yeah.

You know, there were ideas from this one that did kind of make it over in a little bit in terms of Superman being away for a long time, coming back and you know, in the relationship with Lois and how that's explored.

But you know, alt.

And then, then of course they would do Death of Superman years later in bbs, which was also, I mean I similar to that.

I mean they kind of let him stay dead until the end of the movie, but then also immediately teasing it that he was gonna be back.

So I, I agree that yeah, they, they don't.

They.

If they attempt Death of Superman, they don't give it enough time to actually make an impact.

They also did it.

I, I thought they did it pretty well in Superman and Lois the series.

They do have Superman in the final season and they at least give it a few episodes before he's back.

And I like that you get to kind of sit with Smallville and sit with the Kent family, you know, dealing with his passing.

And it made the.

I thought like they were they're resurrection really powerful.

And also it has a great series finale that ties into all those themes.

So.

So there were ideas here that carried over.

But for the most part I think this is very much kind of stayed in the 90s and remained a what if.

But it is.

There are a lot of fascinating ideas here.

And I, and I, yeah, I would say that my favorite part of the script is it does, I think, do Clark and Lois pretty well like you said, very much with some Kevin Smith quips in there.

But it's got a good, you know, examination of the heart and humor and Lois like her love for Clark Superman, but also, you know, feeling like, oh, I can't have him to myself because he belongs to the world.

And how do they reconcile with that?

So there were some cool stuff there.

Yeah, agreed.

Awesome.

Sweet.

Well, again, I know I could talk on and on about this one.

And also I do want to recommend the Death of Superman Lives what Happened documentary.

I think you can find it on YouTube.

It was the director of that actually passed away a few years ago, but he's a guy.

I followed you on screen, duckies.

So do you recommend checking that out?

And also the YouTube channel Bullets and Blockbusters has a lot of these stories on here.

But what do you think?

We would love to hear from you all.

If you've read this script, if you're into this kind of stuff, I could talk about it all day.

So do you have any other recommendations that.

I know that for me, that's not literature.

I know I'm recommending a movie here, but it ties into this topic.

Sure, sure.

We were talking earlier about getting people into reading and all reading counts and free Comic Book Day, if they still have it around, or the book that it was teasing.

There was a Aquamanity book for small children at the Free Comic Book Day yesterday.

Your local comic book store might still have some, some copies if they didn't give them all away yesterday.

I know we were there towards the end of the day yesterday and they still had lots of stacks of freebies.

So you might still be able to get a copy of that particular promotional thing or it was presumably teasing something bigger that D.C. is doing for young readers.

So yeah, that looked very charming, very preschool to elementary school kind of age range of early reader audience.

So give it, give that a.

An investigation.

If you have folks of that persuasion in your, in your circle.

Great choice.

And I was gonna say, like, even if you miss free Fountain Book Day, typically the shops carry leftover books from that event.

So you can probably stop by your local comic shop and odds are you'll have a chance of finding the free issues.

But Annie, thank you so much and this has been a blast.

I'm want to thank all of our listeners and viewers for checking us out.

Rate and review the show wherever you're listening or watching on YouTube.

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I don't know.

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