TW: Homophobia, suicide and depression

James McIntosh taught himself to knit with chopsticks and string when he had been so low in mood that he couldn't leave his bed. He now credits knitting with saving his life.

See the transcript for this episode on the captivate player

James is the owner of McIntosh yarn, see their website

Follow James on Instagram: @knitmcintosh

Yarns, patterns and research discussed in this episode:

Erika knight men’s knits Men'sKnits A New Direction by Erika Knight - Yarn etc...

Pussy hat project (including the critique that it is not inclusive for all races and gender identities) Pussyhat - Wikipedia

Information on mindfulness: Mindfulness- NHS (www.nhs.uk)

Evidence on mindfulness for depression: mindfulness depression | Search results page 1 | Evidence search | NICE

Ravelry: Hue Shift Afghan pattern by Kerin Dimeler-Laurence

Betsan Corkhill Stitchlinks.com

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Mentioned in this episode:

Knitting for Self-Care at Christmas

Visit our website to download the FREE bonus episode of Self-Care One Stitch at a Time focussed on Christmas. Download it now at https://creativerestoration.org/christmas/

Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name

is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's

passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental

health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different

knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental

well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to James

McIntosh, the owner and founder of Macintosh yarn, and also the

author of Knit and Nibble. You can find a link to James's

website and any of the patterns in yarns we discussed in the

show notes alongside more information on mindfulness and

the evidence base for it. Please note that during our

conversation, we talk about depression, homophobia and

bereavement, but also lots about knitting

them Hi, James, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. It's good to see you. How are you?

I'm good. Thanks. How are you doing?

I'm busy on a sleeve at the minute doing a

good, lovely raglan jumper trying to trying to recover from

second sleeve syndrome. Have you ever had it?

I have. I've definitely had second sock

syndrome, I would say more than second sleeve, I do tend to knit

top down raglans. And then you've got it's all attached.

And I feel like it's easier to see. I just need to do it. But

second, socks, definitely.

I'm doing a bottom up jumper. And really

nice bright one. Because I just want more colour in my life at

the moment. Yeah, what I've always find is with we second

sleeve is a problem. So I've come up with a new idea. And I

think it's quite clever. So do the ribbing on the cuff on one

and then on the other, right. And then there's two sets of

increases as you go so do the first set on one sleeve. And

then the second, the first one on the other one and then the

second and then knit to so many centimetres and one and the same

to the other. And then, you know, take off your four

stitches and each row and then move up to the first decrease.

And then that's how I'm doing that. So I'm doing

so like kind of two at a time.

Two at a time tango

That sounds very clever. So you beat the the

second sleeve syndrome. So you'd have to do the same thing over

again. Also, I'm not great at remembering. I know in theory,

I'm following a pattern but making sure the increases are

exactly the same on the second one. I'm not sure that always

happens.

That's because you write them out. Right? Yeah.

Row numbers and I put plus two or minus two next to the row

number and I just stroke them out as I go.

That's definitely sensible. process. I would love

to hear James where your story with knitting began.

began five years ago. Okay. I would have never

met in my life. I always loved to a handknit jumper. There is

something special about a hand knit jumper.

Even before you started you were an appreciator

of that

Oh I loved a good jumper. You see, the

problem was I became very famous very young very quickly and won

more world awards than I could arguably mentally cope with at

the time. And I say that no looking back. I'm 43 and a half

at the moment. You see what I've learned is the half is really

important. You know, because I'm not 44 It's not that I'm turning

seven. It's not 44 I, my degree was in home economics and food

marketing. And I worked in the Good Housekeeping Institute and

the Cordon Bleu cookery schools. And then I went freelance and my

first client and oh, we lasted for years together was Aga

cookers. I was worked my way up to being the global ambassador

for Aga. And I launched Aga all over the world, America, across

Europe, Canada, and I was the man that brought Aga to China. I

worked freelance and I also presented Food TV in China. I

was the only Westerner that I think has ever done it. I used

to get 100 million viewers a week on my TV shows. And I mean

the numbers are

Yeah, you got even conceive of that kind of numbers

1.8 billion people. Yeah. And I got less than 10% of

them watching my shows. So yeah, yes it wasn't quite Saturday

Kitchen. No. So it was huge. I brought all of the business home

to my native Northern Ireland and from a farm in the middle of

nowhere, but I live in London and Peckham in the posh part, as

we call it. And I brought all the business home. And it was

very clear that because I'm gay, that the business wasn't welcome

in Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland and I have letters from

senior elected Northern Irish officials denying meetings

denying investment and I Oh, it was just awful. And they

publicly shamed me. And they hung me out to dry and they

sullied my name. And one day, I just couldn't function anymore.

I collapsed. And I could not move my leg down the bed for a

few weeks. My head was very dark, it did not make sense. I

did not know what to do. And if I didn't know what to do, I

didn't have the energy to do it. I was diagnosed with what was

called a moderately severe depressive episode, I spent a

full year in bed. There was little I haven't watched on

Netflix in that year, five years ago. Because I couldn't do

anything else. Until I decided, oh, let's try knitting. Well, I

found a pair of chopsticks and a bit of string in the flat.

looked on YouTube. Learnt how to cast on Thomas my other half

came home from work. Thomas is a doctor. We'll chat about him in

a bit. Yeah, I remember wiggling this cast on something or other

at him. I did this today love and he goes brilliant. Let's get

the wool,

so he ran with it. He what? Because yes, he asked me

did why was it knitting? Do you think?

Because what else can you do in bed when you

stuck home all day? So you see, I

was like you tried other things. And then that was

the one that stuck in

I was so scared. So anxious, so afraid. And my

head was so black with depression. I couldn't leave my

bed. I couldn't leave the bedroom. It was the it was

overwhelming. Anyway, Tommy got me beige alpaca and the big 12

millimetre needles you know, we bought an Erika Knight book on

men's knits and we knit a jumper and I couldn't read a pattern

really at that point. No. I still have the jumper it's a god

awful thing as I quoted to Knitting magazine once 15 sizes

too big. You look like a Von Trapp child with hand knitted

curtains for your garb. It's horrible.

But it sounds like it served a very significant

purpose.

Oh, yes. It's at the back of my wardrobe. But it

allowed me to love myself again. I when I first put that awful

thing on a creation that I had made. Even though it was beige,

I looked in the mirror and I thought I made this I am worth

something that I made for me. And you know, that beige allowed

me to start to get a wee glimpse of colour back into my world. I

was going to the Maudsley hospital every Thursday, I never

really expected to be an outpatient of the Maudsley

hospital. But you know, it was brilliant. They put me on a year

of psychodynamic psychotherapy. Why did these words need to

ssound so clinically? electrolyzing. You know, like,

yeah, like lobotomy. But it was nothing like that. I mean, if

they've called it self improvement, or something like

that, I would've found it easier to go. But I had a therapist who

was brilliant. She was tough. She was tough. And she helped me

realise that many times in life, I was not wrong. Because I was

different. Because I'm gay, in my native Northern Ireland, that

my thoughts and my feelings were worth something. And that I was

worth something. So I came home one night and what what I really

appreciated about psycho dynamic psychotherapy was, you would do

you hour, I was a Thursday I went, and then you'd have a

whole week to think about what you've done in that hour to come

back and complain next week. And then she would ask you why you

were complaining? And are you were feeling that the key to it

was that week in between? I would do a bit of my knitting at

home. And I realised that as a stitch is tangible, and vital in

a knitted project. So my feelings are tangible to me. And

if that stitch wasn't there, the whole thing would unravel.

Yeah, that's true.

And it would fall apart. So my thoughts and

my feelings were worth something to me and part of me. And I

joked one night and said this is knititation. Nothing for

fidgeters. I've got this busy brain. It's always busy. It was

always too fast. And I can't sit there do this meditation

malarkey or this mindfulness?

I think you tried to do that had you before?

Oh, yes, yes. I'll tell you about that in a

second? That doesn't work. But one stitch and then another

allows a sense of calm, it stops me fidgeting. So, I realised if

I knit consciously and mindfully, which means no

television, no radio, consciously feeling my feet on

the floor, my bum in the seat, my back in the chair, the

needles, the wool flowing through my fingers, and accept

those feelings and sensations in my body without judging,

analysing or changing them, or evaluating them, just accept

them. Yeah. That it will not solve the world's problems, but

it will help me solve mine. And that I will be able to cope.

Well I got out of bed, I got my life back. But the bit in the

middle of all of this is Thomas my other half. Thomas is a

senior consultant physician in a large central London teaching

hospital. And he's also a fellow of the Royal College of

Physicians. Thomas's inpatients are geriatrics and his

outpatients are related to autonomics. That's faint

blackouts and dizzy spells to you and me. Well, Thomas, is

very into his mindfulness. He's the only NHS consultant that we

know of, that has taken mindfulness outside of

psychiatry, and into clinical medicine. And Thomas uses

mindfulness to treat chronic illness and chronic pain. And he

may he may practices mindfulness for three hours a day, every

day. Wow. Yeah, I know. We've just celebrated 10 years

together last week.

Congratulations.

Thank you It is an achievement. Yeah. So Thomas,

for every night and morning, I have watched him do an hour of

mindfulness before bed, when he wakens up and an hour at

lunchtime. And I have seen the fruits of this in his life, in

my life, and in our lives together, but I couldn't do

this. And he would go Oh, James you have to do this we tried the

mindful movements. You know, we do the lower cobra on the floor.

And yeah, I wasn't having any of this it didn't work for me. As

we say in Northern Ireland. It did not float my boat. Yeah. The

knitting. malarkey works for me. Hmm. And knitting as a form of

mindfulness, not as a distraction technique works.

Yeah. And how did you guys was that a combination of

the two of you like was that Thomas adding his mindfulness

slant? It sounds like when you're doing it like that, it is

a very specific way of doing knitting. It's not about you

know how most people do knitting watching TV or, you know, it is

a very, much a mindfulness method of knitting. It's very

specific.

Yeah, I mean, I get out of bed in the morning.

Yeah, I make myself a cuppa. And I sit in my office and just do

hours knitting. Okay? And that's

doing it mindfully, like, Thomas, does this

meditation?

Yeah, you know, then I watch the news after

that. And, you know, the news is on a loop at that time in the

morning, so you're not gonna miss much. And if you what I

learned was if I set my mind correctly at the start of the

day, the rest of the day flows. Now, what's really interesting

about my story, is there is no evidence that's been peer

reviewed, or anecdotal that we have found that shows how

knitting or mindfulness can get you out of depression. Right.

There is evidence to suggest that mindfulness based stress

reduction MBSR Yeah. Will delay will reduce the statistics of

someone who's had moderately severe and severe depression

from suffering again, right. Okay. What this has done for me

is it got me better. This is my story. We cannot say this

medically. But this is my testimony and my story, and I am

alive and I am well and I am healthy because of knititation.

I lost my business over what happened. I've been able to

start a business. It's doing brilliant. Yeah, I mean,

McIntosh Wool, I hand dye all the wool myself. It's pure,

beautiful British wool. I do. Deramores, Do you know Deramores

the wool retailer, well they've just started to stock me, and

we're doing a whole campaign about living life with more

colour, but how to have more colour in your life, this colour

is like colours health colour is healing, the more colour I can

surround myself with, hmm, the better because it helps me stay

alive.

So that's another therapeutic part of the knitting

process surrounding yourself. Yeah, I mean, I certainly have

times when I'm like, I need to knit with pink and yellow.

Because that's what I want to be around you just about you have a

long relationship with a knitting project when it's a big

garment. Don't you like it its in your hands, in your life?

You see, you may have the luxury of that. I

don't. I have to be fast? Yeah. Do you know how many tension

squares I have to knit for the shop or retailer to see it.

Anytime a new fibre comes to me, I need to play with it. So I I'm

doing a sleeve a day at the moment. So that is quite I know.

so yes, I have my meditation, my mindful knitting first thing in

the morning. And then I do a lot of reading on the computer while

I am speed knitting to get garments for photography. Yeah.

And has your relationship with knitting

changed now that it's I don't know, when the yarn brand

started. How long ago was that?

You see what happened was I got better. And

then Thomas and I decided to go on holiday. And we we went we

decided to go to pride in Tel Aviv. Okay, the plane landed in

Tel Aviv. We can go on the phone and Thomas's mum had dropped

dead.

Oh, no, I'm sorry to hear that.

Well, Thomas is German. What do we do? Stay

here, go back to London go to Germany. We did not know what to

do. She died at home. The police took six weeks in Germany just

to make sure all was okay. And it was just awful. We went to

Jerusalem. It was a beautiful city to go to when you're in

that sort of situation. We have the funeral in Germany. And the

day after my mum was diagnosed with late term ovarian cancer.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Nine months to the day. The Thomas's mother

passed mine did and it was the first week of lockdown. There

were no flights from London to Belfast. I held my knitting

tighter. I was the only one I remember in Heathrow terminal

five that day. When I got home, my mom who was 71 looked 95.

There was no morphine available. My mother screamed for hours in

my arms, because the health system in Northern Ireland had

collapsed.

So sorry,

We were not allowed a funeral. We were not

Yeah. So you really have kind of kept yourself going

allowed neighbours. We were not allowed family. We were not

allowed support. We were on our own. And my knitting stayed in

my hands. And that stitch was a breath and the next one was a

with the knitting through all of that trauma.

scream of pain and the next was a loving memory. And if it w

sn't for that knitting, but I have not been depressed since

managed to get through this hor endous tsunami. I did not get de

I mean, the best credit, a lot of it was there

ressed again. I then managed to ive up smoking by stopping by k

itting. I'd smoked for 23 ye rs. 20 a day. I am six month

and two weeks smoke and nicot ne free. Do I see the health

enefits? Yeah, don't cough on t e pillow every morning. And th

t wee bit on my finger's not y llow anymore. There's mor

to this knitting malarkey than meets the eye. So when I st

rt my business, I started Macint sh Wool two years ago, but I h

d to take a year out because f Mum. Oh sure. Yeah. And

ou know, it's a blessing. And we just want to spread the

good news about knitting. And e, human and tell people it's

okay to cry. It's okay to bre k down. Just hold something in

our two hands and make a s itch because that s

was somebody in the Olympics, who decided to do my marketing

for me. I wasn't the only wee boy knitting You know, there was

another one. I just stopped back and I just thought he'd gone.

But I've never seen items as fast in my life as what was

coming off a certain Instagram profile. Hey, yeah.

So yes, Tom Daley was doing the marketing for you. Did

you like I did get hundreds of your friends who don't have

nothing to do with knitting sending you. Have you seen this

at the olympics?

you seen this? Have you seen this? Yes. Yes,

just because he looks better than me with his top off is not

my problem

the rest of us just don't do it in speedos.

So no knitting has saved my life. Well, I would

have committed suicide by now without it. Men don't talk men

can't talk. And I was watching a lot of the parliamentary Select

Committee yesterday. About Yorkshire cricket. Oh, yes. And

I was very interested to hear the guy who was racially abused.

He said, for a lot of my life. I went along with things they

said, because they told me it wasn't racist. And I know that

from homophobia in Northern Ireland. It was okay, all my

life for people to call me a poof or a fruit. And I had to

accept that was okay. And it's only now that we are getting the

freedom to say I am worth something. Don't call me that.

Knitting has given me the strength for that.

Wow. So that's amazing.

Oh, we'll get great jumpers too.

But you know, the other stuff, you know, and I

think it can take some time to go back over all those memories

and think actually, that wasn't okay. Yeah.

I don't like doing moss stitch because

there's too much back and forwards. And I use that as

anger management.

And, I mean, does does the type of knitting make a

difference to you? Do you? Does it matter whether it's like you

said moss stitch or stockinette or a pattern or colour work or,

or not particularly?

It depends what I do I There is not enough in

the market for men. It is really hard to get a nice pattern for a

bloke you know, the market, it's barren for it. I wrote a book on

it, Knit and Nibble, but apart from that, there's not much. Um,

there was a men's Knitting magazine for a while. I

don't know if it's still around.

Rib. No it's gone.

Oh, has it?

You know, then we had I tried to stick to

blokes and gender neutral. I will expand into other things

but I'm a small company, you know, and I'm only just starting

to get knitting patterns together now for my brand. Yeah,

I can't stand intarsia I just can't those bobbins get all

messed up. I just don't want that in my life. Yeah. Other

people seem to like it. Yeah, do love a good bit of fairisle. I

mean, a multicoloured stranded yoke can just bring so much joy,

it can tell a story. And you can knit your mood in it. You know,

your pattern repeats. I hate doing the mathematics for

knitting. But Thomas does that. For me. He's great with a

calculator, and he enjoys that

for patterns do you mean for developing patterns.

Yeah, yeah. Right, like calculating yards and that kind

of thing.

I mean, if he can do morphine doses and stuff

that's important in hospital in his head and he can, he can do

shaping of garments as well. I just don't enjoy that bit.

Does he knit?

No, I've banned him from knitting.

Okay. It's your thing.

That's my thing. He doesn't have time to be

honest. He does crochet which I'm trying to learn. Okay. Do

you crochet?

Well, I have and I do occasionally. And if I was

making a toy or something 3D, I might choose crochet over

knitting, maybe because I've done a couple because I wanted

the thing to give to somebody or something. And I don't find it

as I don't choose it. anywhere near as often as knitting. I

also think in terms of the physical action, I would get

more kind of RSI type pain. If I did it. And I think I prefer the

fabric of knitting personally.

I'm trying to learn crochet at the moment. And

if any listeners would like to come I will cook lunch if you'd

show because every online video I've looked on how to do a

granny square the I get lost? No. Okay. I'm not daft I've got

a Master of Arts Degree. Yeah, I can follow things, but they show

you once. And then they go really fast and finish. Oh,

okay. I need to see what the treble is again, please. Slow

down!

I think we, you know, I started knitting before. I

think YouTube was a thing, but I think it is much easier

generally to learn from because I think I learned from a book.

But much easier to learn from seeing somebody and I've had a

couple of people who've asked me to teach them to knit over zoom

and I'm thinking really would be quite challenging. I think it's

better to watch a video produced by somebody who has a proper

camera that's on their hands. For example.

I For Oh, for three years until lockdown, I

haven't re-started. I ran a knitting group in Peckham. Okay.

Yeah, we get up to 96 came. I mean, it was. Yeah. But

everybody needed to learn to knit. Right? Yeah. So you start

with a tension square. If you can get your tension, you can go

on to a hat. Well, it was 96 drop stitches. Well I gave up,

okay, if I bought everybody a Jager bomb at the bar. 96

dropped stitches.

They were all new knitters, were they? Oh, wow.

That's, I mean, that's a lot. I'm running a therapeutic

knitting group in a primary school. And I've found eight new

knitters, you know, a lot. They are children. So they've

obviously got other, you know, I have to also help them find the

scissors or allow them to go to the toilet and that kind of

thing. But, yeah, I think you do need an element of one to one

support when you're just starting, don't you and then

once you've got the flow of things, I think the other thing

that's challenging over Zoom is sometimes you do just need to

hand your knitting to somebody who knows what on earth has

happened when it's gone wrong. And get them to help you

we're actually recording this over zoom, as do

you want this sleeve, because theres a dropped stitch you can

see it as you're interviewing.

There's a dropped stitch is there? No

Of course there is, I'll fix it up later at the end. It's for

photography. No you do. And th re is something caring about

eaching someone to knits, you k ow, there is I am inter

sted in your well being let m work with you. It's about a fri

ndliness. It's you can talk bout things that are perso

al. And talk about things that re deep. You can talk about

life love, and you know, wash n cold water, dry flat and ri

se and repeat. Yeah, life is tho e stitches.

Do you feel like people talk more in a knitting

group kind of environment? Because I suppose I wonder

whether the lack of kind of intense eye contact and people

kind of talk as they work on something. And sometimes that

makes people more likely to share something because they're

busy with their hands.

One lady came to knitting group one night, her

husband died that morning. She just wanted to be at her

knitting group. Yeah, because she knew she could talk. And

what an honour an honour it is. To start something with somebody

will tell you that. I just gave her the biggest hug.

I've found you know, it's a way of giving someone

comforts it's really hard, isn't it when someone's been through a

bereavement from the outside to know what.

tell me about it from the inside.

Yeah, exactly. And that's a whole nother story. But

even from the outside thinking, how can I be helpful to this

person, but I guess sitting alongside them and knitting

without,

at a time, one stitch at a time. It's not a

race unless you own the wool company

And has that changed how you feel about the knitting.

James. I'm wondering.

I have my knitting. Yeah, and I have my

work knitting

Okay, so that's separate.

Yeah. Work is about coloured blocks and stitch

patterns. My knitting is about a jumper for me. Yeah. No. As we

talk, I've sent some stuff out to designers. And I'm absolutely

shocked that a two skein shawl has been knit in three days. And

when we come off this interview, I'm going to have a look to see

what it is because I've been sent a picture of it. They can't

wait. I don't know how Brian Smith Designs has knit that

fast.

Wow. That's very fast.

I know.

Yeah. Is knitting ever unhelpful for your mental

health?

No, no, no, because, you know, his best bet

is if you get really peeved off with a pattern, yeah, you just

put it in the bag. I've got 72 of them. My PhDs my project half

dones. Oh, I haven't found it. I have knit everywhere. I mean,

everywhere. Around the world, knitting. There is no problem

getting needles on a plane. I have.

I used to worry a lot about that though. I did bring a

crochet hook once because I was thinking well, they're not

surely they're not going to take that off me.

I just cry at security. Don't take my needles

away. And I've knit in nightclubs I used to knit in the

Royal Vauxhall Tavern and discos to get things finished. i Oh,

the night bus used to be really good the N63 night bus in

London. Yeah, I've knit everywhere. Do you know you only

ever get a smile and you are just sending love from your

knitting needle to somebody else? And there was one night

and these blokes got on the N63 Night bus Thomas and I were

coming home from a Night Club and let's just say they looked

like they were well oiled gentlemen with alcohol. Yeah.

And he was a big bruiser. And there was a fight about to

start. And he looks at me and he goes, my granny used to do that,

can I feel your balls? I said, Excuse me. I said, my Merino. He

calmed down, he sat beside me. And he said, that wool just

feels like what my granny used to knit for me. And she was

really, kind to me.

That's amazing.

I was about to die.

It diffused everything

Do you know what knitting makes you smile, it

gives people hope. And I think specially, during and after the

pandemic, especially with the climate crisis. You know, we

need to look at our fibres carefully now, I know not

everybody can afford new wool. But we need to consider manmade

fibres carefully. We need to consider what the petrochemical

industry makes, we need to consider making yarns out of

kerosene. And we need to be careful about this. Because the

fossil fuel it takes to make them and they don't biodegrade.

And we need to look at this and it is I don't have an answer.

Yeah. I know the price of hand dyed pure British wool, yeah,

not everybody can afford that.

Yes, it's expensive.

It is. And I'm not yarn shaming. I'm looking at

a debate. There's also a medical research paper that's out you

can it's very easy to Google and it shows where there is acrylic

fibre in human lung tissue, okay. Right. This is this is

serious, you know. But we have to look at this sensibly, we

have to look at microplastics but all this will start to

happen. You know, COP26, I must say to get as far as they did

with so many nations and so many cultures and so much invested

financial interest for countries. I was impressed

knitting, for me is mental health, but knitting is life. It

is family, it is society, it is environment. It is industry, it

is economics, it is farming, it is food production. It is it is

politics. Knitting is not just one thing.

Yeah, you can make, I don't know demonstrate your

values, I suppose. And make choices about your politics by

what yarn you choose and what fibres you're using and

what Pussy hat you wear. And that I am proud of

you know, the pussy hat whenever Trump was a little bit crude

with his as he called locker room talk. unexcusable

ignorance.

Do you want to just explain for people who don't

know about that? Because it was a few years ago now, isn't it

when Trump was elected

When Trump was elected He said the most

disgusting thing about females about why he wanted to grab

them. And he excused it by saying it was a locker room

talk. Well, I'm sorry. That was degrading, misogynistic, and

just, quite frankly, disgusting. So the ladies in America decided

right can, we do best knitting. But they do other things better.

So what they were doing was actually playing to the

stereotype and just saying, don't mess with us. So they

developed what was termed the pussy hat is what we would know

Shapeways as a tea bag hat. So a large rectangle folded over and

it was in pink. And they used a yarn originally from a wonderful

company I know very well in South America called Malabrigo.

And they developed this and they wore it in their 1000s to the

rallies to protest against Trump. And if something so

innocent as knitting can make a colourful sea of statement

across the world, what hope is there for us in those stitches

and how blessed are we to knit those stitches?

Yeah. So it really is knitted politics.

It's knitted life is visibility to the to the

invisible in society. It is saying I am here. This is my

statement, and you will see me I will knit because I am worth

something like those knitted stitches are worth something.

Oh, I'm all for knitting. Yeah.

And it's so important and it has been throughout your

life in so many different ways, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I

always ask on the podcast about a significant project. If you

wouldn't mind telling me it sounds like there's been a lot.

There was one.

There's one. Okay.

There was one. I grew up with a lady called

Kerry. And she she married a friend of ours called Dean on

the farm next door. And when mum died, she came with a casserole.

And she jumped out of the car and said James. I know there's

COVID I am giving you a hug, because you need one. Kerry came

to see me every day. And it was lockdown. And I wanted to say

thank you when I got back to London, and I knit a blanket.

it was known as a Hue Afghan Shift blanket. Okay, I can't

remember who designed it. I can look it up on Ravelry. Okay. And

it was mitre squares that joined together, it was huge. And it

made a cross in the middle and an just a display of colour from

top to bottom corner to corner is gorgeous. And I knit it for

Kerry one stitch at a time. It was all done in garter stitch.

So I could put my grief and my tears into that without having

to think Yeah. And as this grew, and as the colours grew, I

realised that the end there was a beautiful yellow cross in the

middle of it. And then this was my grief blanket, I called it

and you know what? The most important bit of that blanket

was giving it away. And I gave it to Kerry. And I was just

like, I had to give my mum away. My tears and the pain and my

feeling and my anger and my happiness and my sad and my

worry and My strength. And every fibre of what I was struggling

with, I put into that blanket.

And that's amazing actually James the bit about

giving it away because I've heard a few other people talk

about significant projects and getting them through

bereavements.

Yeah, you have to give it away, and then it's,

but I haven't heard anyone else who's given it away.

And that's really interesting that you know, the parallel with

having to give your mum away

Grief has to be shared. Grief has to be shared

because there were many people who loved my mum. I mean, mum,

mum was a home economics teacher. She was a farmer's

wife. She ran the ladies group in church, she ran the, the

infants and babies and toddlers group in church and mum was the

community. And we were not allowed a funeral. Do you know

what that was? Like? We were allowed 10 minutes in the

garden. So I had to do something for Kerry, who loved my mum too

who I had to do something to make this all, it will never be

okay. Yeah, but I had to set Mum free in my heart. Yeah. And I

did it. And I gave it away because the metaphor of if you

really love someone, you set them free is not about love and

two teenagers falling out when they're going out. It's about

losing, deeply losing. But you know, my mum's still with me I

chat to her every day. We talk about the stitches.

Was she a knitter?

Oh, yes. Okay.Oh, yeah. Oh, mum, knitting

and crocheting crafts. And our mum was stunning at it and

embroidery. And yeah.

Do you think maybe that planted a seed for you?

Like maybe that was why your brain went to that place when

you were needing something you could do in your bed?

Oh, no. Mum said to me quite clearly. Boys don't

do that. It's okay. So mum came over in the middle of my

depression and brought her to John Lewis. And that's how it

all started really. So yeah. Mum Mum helped me a lot with it. And

for Knit and Nibble. Mum did some of the some of the jumpers

for me, but

Okay, so you did knit together later on?

Well, she did it in Northern Ireland. I did it

here, pray the Lord for FaceTime. And yeah, away we go.

Yeah. So yeah. This hasn't been too heavy a podcast for you.

It's

not at all I think it's it's just amazing how important

knitting has been and how you've also really used it very

deliberately, mindfully, intentionally for like you said,

keeping yourself going, saving your life, managing some really

difficult times discrimination, bereavement, you know, making

political protest, protest, you know, it's really, but knitting

is all of those things. And like you said, it is, you know,

exactly, so I think it's really and probably not many of us

think about all of those things that often and I guess that is

part of the podcast is thinking about actually, a lot of

knitters really feel it is very significant to them. So I don't

think you're going to be alone in having, you know, like I

said, bereavement something that's come up very often when

people talk about significant projects. But I think you've

definitely thought about all of these things and the role of

knitting a lot more than most people and articulated those

thoughts.

I've got on my knitmcintosh.com website, I've got a little bot.

So when I'm not there, you know, you can type in questions and

the bot will give you answers that are pre programmed in.

Yeah. And a lot of people use it. And what we've noticed, when

I get up in the morning, if I'm not there to answer the

questions, I get an email with what people have typed. So I can

get back to them. You know, people tell me their stories,

people tell me about the worry that the can't be with their

husband who's had a heart attack and how they're nothing's kept

on going. And there's something viral happening privately viral,

that by me being able to tell my story, other people are telling

there's that people are finding freedom, and they're nothing and

talking about it. And this is all good. This is wonderful

therapy. This is then I am here, and then they can wear it. They

can wear their story, in bright colours and be proud of it. And

rightly so.

Yeah. And I think it's something certainly from my

conversation with Betsan Corkhill, who

Oh Betsan is wonderful, she helped me start

my journey.

And she talks a lot about therapeutic knitting. And

the way she started was by discovering this filing cabinet

at a Knitting magazine or crafting magazine that where

they had all of these letters from people who'd, who were

writing about the significance of their story with knitting,

and it was a filing cabinet that she discovered and turned into,

you know, the catalyst for the rest of her career, really. But

now, I guess it's happening more online, so other people can

share and interact with those stories more, I think, whereas

previously when they sat in a physical filing cabinet, maybe

that was more difficult.

What I love most about Betson was how She

struggled to get research published on knitting So she

changed it quite sensibly to instead of calling it knitting

into a bilateral rhythmic psychosocial intervention. Of

course, everybody wants to fund a bilateral rhythmic

psychosocial intervention and give it money, you know, well

done, you Betsan.

James I always ask about knitting high and low,

they can be deep and meaningful or entirely frivolous, whatever

comes to mind for you.

I think you've dealt with the lows. I think

I've told you about the love. That's the highs. Yeah. And I

don't know, I think I've covered that well. I have knit all over

the world. Oh, knitting high lying in the Dead Sea. Which was

the day after Thomas's mum died. And I was lying in the Dead Sea.

Knitting

Yeah. Wow. And how did you keep it dry?

I put it on my tummy.

And you were that boyant?

,you're only going up to your knees and walk

in backwards. And you just sit down? Yeah. And it throws you

over. So my whole tummy was dry,

and you were knitting there? Yeah, extraordinary.

Yeah, definitely sounds like a knitting like a once in a

lifetime.

No it makes me sound like I'm weird. And I need

to go back to the Maudsley for more.

Sounds like you're very dedicated knitter just

depends on what spin you put on it James. Indeed, do you find it

and you end up striking up conversations with random people

because they see you knitting?

The most Random? Honestly, I mean, who else knits

in a night club, I mean there was a very famous gay nightclub

back in the 90s. called Heaven. Yeah, it's still going well,

there was a certain sound of music in the 90s naughties in

Heaven. And they were doing a tribute to it at the Royal

Vauxhall Tavern one night, but I had a photography sample to do

and I haven't heard this music in years. And I really wanted

to go out and just be it. You know? 20 something again? Yeah.

So I was clubbing doing my knitting I think to get it

finished, and do you know what it worked.

Are there any places where you feel like the knitting

has helped you? I don't know feel okay in a place. I don't

own a doctor's waiting room or that it's helped. I don't know

whether it helped him that night bus whether you felt

my biggest phobia is injection needles. is

cruel phobia to have. It's awful. Getting COVID Jobs was

not easy. was not easy. I had to get quite a bit of diazepam from

a doctor. It was it was not Thomas, by the way. It was not

easy. During my depression, I needed some dental work done.

And I couldn't but Christine who goes to my knitting group. She's

a dentist, okay. And I sit in her chair knitting. While she

does my dental injections and that's how we do it. Wow.

And that helped enough to get you to manage it

i still scream like a two year old. So you're

killing me, but it just didn't do it. He just, I can do it.

Yeah, I don't like it, but I can do. And I do have a shake after

my body just shakes after having injection, but I can still get

it done. Yeah. And everybody's got something like this.

Everybody. I was scared about giving up smoking. The thought

of being not being a nonsmoker. But the thought about giving up

something that I'd done habitually for 20 odd years.

Yeah, it did scare me. But knitting just. A stitch is a

breath stitch, A stitch is tangible. So I am and if I can

make this stitch, I can do whatever I need to do.

Yeah, that's amazing

that answer your question does?

And it feels kind of, I don't know whether it's

slightly frivolous to ask this question when you've offered so

much. But I always end with asking the greatest gift that

knitting has given you for the rest of your life. And I guess

for you, maybe it's difficult to pin down because it's

Oh, no. That's easy. My greatest gift through

knitting? Yeah, is a song that the late and very great Whitney

Houston sang. And that is once I have learned to love myself, it

is the greatest gift of all. And when I've got that no one, no

matter how hard they try, with homophobia with whatever, they

cannot take away my dignity, because through knitting, I have

found me.

And that's the ultimate. It is. Yeah, the key

to all of the other things.

I have peace in myself. You know, and that's,

that's not an easy thing to find. No. But I've done that

through knitting.

Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing.

Thank you for having me.

It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you. And can you just

let us know? Because I'm sure there'll be lots of people who

want to find out about your yarn and your books, and

my knititation

Exactly. So just tell people what are the best ways to get in

touch or to find out what you're up to?

would just come and see me online at knitmcintosh.com.

That's knit K.N.I.T. mcintosh.com. At KnitMcIntosh on

all the socials. Come and see me drop me an email. I normally say

Hello, nice and friendly.

Thank you so much, James.

Pleasure. Thank you, Mia.

Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit

podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic

knitting you can follow me on Instagram

@knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website

therapeuticknitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is

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