This is a bonus episode in collaboration with the Search with Candour podcast. Unfortunately we had some technical difficulties, meaning we don't have a recording of the live podcast we did during brightonSEO in September, where we discussed managing energy levels when at conferences. However, we promised you a podcast, so Sarah, Tazmin and Jack recorded a special episode to recap the live podcast, and discuss the main takeaways. We hope you enjoy!

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Resources used for episode

• brightonSEO the world's largest search marketing conference
• Women in Tech SEO
• Neurodivergents in SEO

Copyright 2024 Sarah & Tazmin

Jack Chambers-Ward 0:06

Hello and welcome to this podcast special. Once again, it's a crossover between Search with Candour and the SEO mindset. You probably know me already if you're listening on the Search with Candour feed, but just in case you're not. I am Jack Chambers-Ward and the host of Search with Candour. And I'm joined by my lovely co host. Hello, Sarah McDowell, how are you?

Sarah McDowell 0:24

I'm very well how about yourself?

Jack Chambers-Ward 0:27

Doing all right doing all right, we're recording together. I love podcasting with you guys. It's nice to actually sit down and record another podcast with you guys.

Sarah McDowell 0:35

Yes, and we also have Tazmin. Howdy!

Tazmin 0:43

How's everyone?

Sarah McDowell 0:46

This feels weird because we normally do these podcasts together in front of an audience. And we don't have anyone watching us that we know of, that we know.

Tazmin 1:06

We can imagine everyone.

Jack Chambers-Ward 1:07

We're talking about by the way the in person live podcast event when we were in Brighton for brightonSEO earlier on in September. But unfortunately, there were some technical difficulties and stuff. But we are going to deliver a podcast nonetheless. We promised you a podcast and a crossover event. So by gosh darn it, we're going to deliver one right guys.

Sarah McDowell 1:08

We are resilient. Right, exactly. This is an example of when things go wrong that are out of your control. Okay, what can we do about technical issues? Nothing. There's no way to get there or do back unless we've got a time machine. So we're just gonna, I mean, Jack, Tazmin any time machines knocking about?

Tazmin 1:57

I know I've had the Ghost film in my head, and now it's Back To The Future.

Jack Chambers-Ward 2:03

No time machines unfortunately.

Sarah McDowell 2:07

What we can do is we can talk about the event and have it more of like a reflection you know what we talked about and also it will give you our listeners fomo and you want to be there next time. Fear of missing out!

Jack Chambers-Ward 2:26

Yeah, cuz we're gonna we're gonna do it again right we're planning to do it hopefully pretty much around every Brighton SEO so fingers crossed in about six months time when it swings back around in April we'll be doing another live podcast event again. So yeah, if you do feel like you missed out on the last one, there'll be another one coming up in a few months as well so hopefully this will also build your excitement as well as gathering and building some fomo as well.

Tazmin 2:56

Besides we've got banners. Now doesn't that make it official if we have a banner!

Sarah McDowell 3:00

Jack, are you now healed from the banner injury?

Jack Chambers-Ward 3:06

Yeah, literally before we even started recording this is before with anybody who was in the room or anything like that we were getting set up we're getting the stores all set up and stuff is amazing venue up projects and the globe room. And we've got these like nearly seven foot tall banners. I really underestimated how tall they were and I'm I'm six foot two. I'm a big guy. I was like thank God I'm here because I can reach right to the top and like really stretch up and hook it up. And I didn't hook it up did I because I was I was a fool and miss the little hook thing and it came sliding down and the top metal of it slammed into my thumb and cut my thumb open. And yeah, so 10 minutes before people started arriving. I was I was bleeding everywhere, but it wasn't anywhere near as dramatic as I'm making it sound. It was a little cut on my thumb and it's just about healed and scarring IV again, not not for the nurses but for sarin Tassie moment to see a little line across my thumb then it's just a little the little scar there. But I know I'm a big brave boy.

Yeah. So what I think would be good is, if we did like a little recap, obviously, we can do it all again, as much as we'd love, love to be able to do that. But we can definitely do recap in like main takeaways. And I, let's start with where the conversation started. Okay, so we started by talking about what is meant by energy management. And obviously, when we think about energy management, we tend to think straight to physical energy, but it's also your mental energy. And this is largely impacted by what you think and how you perceive different situations, right.

Tazmin 5:49

And I think, going on a step from that, when we think about physical energy, we think about consuming it, consuming the food consuming the hydration. And we think that when we are losing it, it's when we are exercising. So that's the sort of equation if we have in our minds, but we don't often think about what do I do to enhance my mental energy, what things to consume. And equally, we don't really think about where we are losing that mental energy. So things like perfectionism, people pleasing, overthinking, these are all ways that we're losing energy. So that I feel like the mental emotional energy just doesn't get talked about enough. But when you go to places like Brighton, that's the thing that depletes you because Brighton isn't physically training. Nobody's asking you to run around Brighton centre 10 times. So it does feel like you're walking, right and centre 10 times one of the rooms.

Sarah McDowell 6:54

I think what was really good to hear is all of our experiences of where we have been in that situation where we've drained all of our energy. I remember when I first started going to conferences, and I remember the first Brian SEO, afterwards, I was a shell of a human. I just wanted to go find a dark room. stare at a wall. Okay, that's a bit dramatic. Do you want to those things? But yeah, it's really draining. It was really draining and actually reflecting back on it. And it was all because I wasn't aware of what my body needed. But also my mind. What do you reckon Jack?

Jack Chambers-Ward 7:44

Yeah, definitely. I'm a similar kind of way I talked about this, funnily enough, on the last episode, we did live, I was talking about how introverted I am, and how I really need that quiet time and alone time to recharge. And I can use a lot of energy I can switch it on and be very social and be podcast host jack or event host Jaco whatever I need to be. But really, I need to sit down, lie down, read a book, you know, play a video game or something like that, and, and just have a relaxing moment by myself to have that recharging moment. And I know quite a few people in the audience when we were there in Britain as well, we're talking about how they need those moments of like, don't be afraid to go and take a you know, a post lunch nap or something like that. You don't have to attend absolutely everything. You need to understand how to pace yourself physically and mentally for how you're going to approach a full two day, sometimes even three or four day event, you could be attending training, you can be doing the fringe events as well, it can quickly turn into what feels like an entire week's worth of socialising and energy using in a couple of days. And taking those moments specifically to have some quiet time to recharge to not be fully switched on, I think is hugely, hugely important for as for me, I don't know for plenty of other people as well, to have those ways to balance and really manage your energy levels and kind of pace yourself over the long period of the conference.

Sarah McDowell 9:08

100%. 100%. Tazmin anything else on this? Like? What is energy management?

Tazmin 9:19

So um, I remember on the evening, I use the analogy of a phone. And that seems to land.

Sarah McDowell 9:34

Yeah. Okay, so before you do share that. Yeah. Because the second part of the conversation so we had a talk about what energy management was why it's important, we all shared experiences. And then the second part of the conversation was we were sharing practical tips where we share advice of how you can better manage your energy and yeah, it's great Tazmin go with your mobile energy, mobile phone energy because mobile phone energy, you know what I'm on about?

So most of us have a mobile phone, most of us have a smartphone, and we take care of it, we will plug it in every every evening, fully charge it, take it out the next day. And if we are going to an event like Brighton, we will make sure we take a charger or we'll take a power bank or we'll take something and we will check in with our phone all the time. Oh, it's 92% Charge, I'm okay, then it starts depleting. And then when it gets to like 10, you think Ah, no, I need to find some way of charging up my phone. If it runs out of charge, it gets to zero and just stops working. And at that time, there is no one to blame. But really yourself because you didn't look after it. You didn't. You weren't mindful of it. But what about you? What precautions have you taken before you go to a conference or before you go on a plane journey or whatever? How often do we spend our time daily charging ourselves? And we look after our phones better than we look after ourselves? So you know, what is your charging routine? Do you check in with yourself to check where that energy level is? What sort of things are going to give you a boost? What's your charger? How do you look after yourself if you go to places like Brighton. And I think that landed because it's it's something that we use every day. It's something that everyone has.

It's easy, isn't it? Like you see you see your phone? And you see that the battery's going down to like, oh, I need to charge it. But I suppose the complexity with when it comes to charging your own battery, that's where it's so important for like self awareness and sort of understanding. Okay, what drains me and what recharges me? So at brightonSEO, I was I was proud of myself because I said no to things. So I could say yes to me. Right? You can see I'm very happy with that though. Because I yeah, I've been doing. It's been a journey and I'm still learning right. But for the past few years, I've really tried to understand okay, what do I need as a human? And as much as I love being around people and other people and people people I'm a people person and I love to socialise, it drains me and I need time for myself just to step away or or doesn't necessarily have to be by myself. I remember during brightonSEO, I was I was feeling that my energy levels were depleting and I needed to do something about it. And I bumped into Billy Geena. Shout out to Billy Geena. Wonderful human. And she did an amazing session with John Mueller on the main stage. So yeah, and I bumped into Billy Geena. So great to say as well. I am getting so side tracked, I bumped into Billy Geena. And we had a little chit chat and how and we're like, oh, how are you? I'm psycho. I'm just I'm just overwhelmed. I'm a bit tired. It's so busy, so much stuff going on. And I was like, I think I just need to go to Costco next door. Like it's much more quiet over there. And Billy came with me. And it was just so nice to come out of like the busyness of that conference centre and take a step away and it was only for like half an hour. But that did me the world of good because I went into Costa had my I think it was a peach iced tea or something or other. And we just sat had a little conversation. It was just two of us. And it helped me so there's an example of what I did.

I remember after one of the lunches so I just went back to the hotel, so I'm tired. And I'm not going to be able to get through the rest of Thursday and then I have the talk on Friday so I just went and on the walk home I bought myself a gelato strolls along. Nice and yeah. And then I came back.

What were you doing Jack to manage your energy levels?

Well, I had my nice little table in the corner with neuro divergence and SEO, we were positioned like kind of near the cloak room between women and tech SEO and with the glitch guys and be digital as well like all that kind of like community partners and stuff. So I had a nice little kind of like, I still feel like I'm there, I still feel like I'm part of it. But I was able to kind of just by know, there's a chair available, because that's my table. So I can go and sit down and chill out. And sometimes it just be on my own. And I'd be like, Oh, hello, and just wave at a couple of people. Or I'd just, you know, sit and relax and drink and eat the cupcakes there or whatever it was, like it was the leftover cupcakes from the live podcast, funnily enough, so you missed more FOMO for missing out on cupcakes, folks. And it was nice to have a little, almost like a little homebase, like a little section where I could just go and chill out. And I knew we all talked about this when we did our neurodivergent NESEA meetup on the Friday, how there is this kind of pressure from a lot of us and it's something I brought up on the live podcast as well, there's that that masking element to a lot of neurodivergent people that like, you present your best self because you know, if you go fully in with like all of your present ADHD or autistic traits, or whatever it is, it can be pretty full on for people. And it's a lot of them are not like, typically socially acceptable and stuff like that. So there's this term called masking where neurodivergent people learn to kind of present themselves and we learn to do things slightly differently and adjust our behaviour. So we fit in more easily into neurotypical social structures and stuff like that. And it was nice when we all got together, we're all able to be kind of fully weird and unmask and just be like Sarah, we're all a bunch of neurodivergent weirdos and I say that with all the love in the world as one myself. And it was this nice little moment. And that was the real big feedback we got was like, this is because that was the first impersonally if we'd ever done for that community, we're all able to just kind of be ourselves, especially at a conference is kind of a rare thing. Because, you know, I said earlier, like, Oh, I'm able to switch it on. And I mean that pretty literally, I I really have to go suddenly like okay, fine, I'm gonna I'm not gonna be miserable, grumpy Jack. Now I'm gonna be like, Hey, how are you? Oh, my God, Hi Big hugs that it is like, it's a real conscious decision for me to switch into that social mode. And to have a nice little space where I could just kind of chill out and not be so on was was really, really helpful.

That's so wonderful to hear that you created a safe space for neurodivergent people that were there. Right. But I think I think if you can, it's the same principle across the board. So not to take away from what you said, because it was it's yeah, what you said was very important. And I wasn't aware of this masking thing that you just spoke about. So that was interesting to learn about. But I think we all need to understand, okay, what people are energy drainers and what people are energy, what's the what's the opposite?

Chargers, topper uppers.

And it's not a negative thing that people drain your energy, but it's just so I find that people that I'm closer to, or someone that I can have a little hook with or someone that like I just, I can be me. Because I think when you're meeting new people, or your your everyone, to a certain extent, puts the best version of themselves, don't they? Whereas I find that I'm fortunate that I've been in the industry for a while. And I've got people that I can call friends. And that's just wonderful because I can be myself and I, I can take the pressure off myself a bit. And there was a couple of times where someone gave me a hug and I was like, Oh, I really did need that. Thank you. Oh, powerboat right there. So yeah, Tazmin I bet you've got lots of wonderful stuff to say on this matter.

I think and yeah, that's one of the things that we spoke about in the live that one tip to have going into conferences, know who those people are for you. And keep in touch with them and spend time with them. So you may be going around, you know, going around centre going around to talks doing your speaking whatever, but knowing that in 45 minutes or at lunchtime, I'm going to meet so and so and so and so and that's your recharging. And I think it doesn't have to be Jack your talkback with you know your neurodivergent group. It can be like Sarah said, people that you know and people that you are comfortable being yourself with and what what made me giggle was at the end of everything, we came and camped in your little area of Brighton SEO in York. And I had that raspy, slushy, and it completely went to my head. I broke I literally couldn't stop giggling. But I didn't mind it was fine because I was with friends. Whereas I think I'd have been a bit mortified if that was somebody else it right.

Sorry, Jack, you were you were gonna say something?

I was gonna make a joke. Oh, no, make the joke. No, no time has passed now.

But, um, yeah, but I just like, Yeah, it's so important, isn't it. And, like, obviously, if you're, if you're new in an industry, and you're going into conferences for the first time, like, if you, if you have, if you're not in a fortunate position where you've got friends, or, or you don't know, people, this is a great opportunity to put yourself out there. So when, what I see in the, for example, in the women in tech, SEO community shout out to reach Abu Ali, wonderful organisation that tried to reach. But what's really nice to see is like people will say, Ah, it's the first time that I'm going to write in SEO, is it anyone else's first time, and then you can kinda like create a little group there, even if it's just one of the person that you can be like, Do you know what you are? My, you're my safe space, and you don't know what's gonna come from that, like, you might, they might just be there for you during Brighton SEO, and that they're your person that you can feel safe. And you can, yeah, do whatever. But you might end up having a long and fruitful friendship, like the three of us have.

Opportunity opportunities. And for people who, absolutely and for people who have never been, and are going to the next one, one big tip that we shared on the night is don't feel that you've got to go to all of the talks. And don't feel like you've got to take copious notes of everything, because you're not going to be able to implement everything that you learn at Brighton, SEO, it's overwhelming. So pick and choose your talks, know why you're going to see them. And it could be I don't want to learn anything about that topic. But I've heard that person's a really great speaker. So I'm going to use it as a masterclass on how to do a public talk. Or, you know, I want to learn about that thing. But I don't really want to learn about anything else on the shedule. So I can just slip away.

If only I knew because the first time I went to brightonSEO, I was that person that was going to every talk, coming back with memes pages of to do's notes, and you're just not going to do it. Like there's too much on your plate. Because why you get caught up in the brightonSEO-ness, right? Stupid word. But you you have all these wonderful ideas and stuff. But you've got to be realistic, because you're gonna go back to your job, okay, and you've got your other priorities, you've got your other campaigns and stuff. I'm not saying like, don't try and implement, like anything. But even if you took away two or three things that you can really focus on and really do. That's much better than putting all this pressure with all these reams of notes. Because, like, what are you going to do with all of that? Like, you can't you can't implement it all so prioritisation is is important. Yeah, absolutely. Jack is anything else that you shared on the night?

Yeah, and we talked about a couple of different things in terms of like, what you can do to kind of plan stuff out when talking about that. Now, right thinking about how you don't have to go to everything. And how I do that is I plan my schedule out ahead of time, and I kind of prioritise stuff. And I have a these are the talks exactly as you were saying, there has been like maybe I have never seen this person speak live, but I've seen them on YouTube. I've heard them on podcasts, I need to hear them speak live, oh my god, they're like a, you know, a hero of mine in terms of public speaking, or it's a topic I'm really interested in, and I want to learn about more, or part of professional development or whatever it is, I prioritise like a handful. And I literally mean, upwards of five and no more that I really, really, really want to go and see. And then the rest of the schedule kind of falls around those kinds of things. And I want to kind of like make sure I'm not as exactly as you did. And I did say the first time I want to go to 35 talks across two days. I'm running from auditorium one to over to auditorium to then background to the syndicate stage, then background to the auditorium again and like as we're saying you spend half your time running around, dodging people with Oh, hello, sorry, scene a bit and then again, like there's this whole, like franticness and rashness. To but actually planning itself out and knowing. Okay, I know I've got a talk at 11 o'clock, and I've got a talk at two o'clock that I really want to go to. But between then maybe I'll find somebody to have lunch with maybe I can text my friend who I know is, you know, in the areas in the is at the conference and we can hang out for a bit or, in my case, it gave me an opportunity to do some interviews because I was recording podcasts. So if you're hearing this on the search, the candour podcast, that was last week's episode was my bits between the talks, going around and interviewing people and doing other bits and pieces. And that planning is so key for me to not completely burn myself out. And I already go in with an expectation set realistically, rather than a really high expectation of, oh, God, I need to do everything as much as possible and make the most of it.

Yeah, yeah. Tazmin looks like you're you're wanting to say something.

So I did not do the planning that objected. And I could feel that it was sapping my energy, because then people asked me what talk you're going to have done this yet. But when I left on the Thursday afternoon, went back to the hotel, I thought to myself, I'm going to miss that next session. I did go through the talks for the rest of Thursday and Friday and decide, these are the ones I'm going to do it and instantly, I feel better.

You did something as well. Tazmin, because I message didn't in the morning, like, oh, let's go and meet for breakfast. And you put your, it was great, you put your boundary, you put your needs first. And you were like, you know what, Sarah, as much as that sounds wonderful. I just need time for me. And I want more people to say no to other people. Do you know what I mean? Like because, like, everyone's understanding, like, I didn't get upset or angry with you at all. And I was like, You know what, Tazman? I don't blame you. You do it.

It was hard. It was hard to say no, I crafted like, text message three times. You're doing Tessman. We talk we literally talked about this yesterday. You are tired. I had so much to get done before I even got to Brighton. Everybody does. But talk about me. Now. I want you to age and all of that was shattered by the time I got there. And I was really conscious that, you know, Friday was going to be a busy day. So Thursday was my only chance to recoup. And then I thought, okay, so we'll understand. I'd love to have breakfast with you, Sarah, however, I'm going to take this opportunity just to chill. And think leading on from that, which is something that we've mentioned on the night when you are meeting people or if you see somebody there just sitting on their own. Ask first before you plough into a conversation with them. And something happened is on. On Thursday night Jack and I had gone to a dinner.

Thank you. Thank you, Gareth. And Annika. You're also supporting us.

Very nice dinner. And it was a lovely event everyone was was really sure. And it did he say his name's Gary, I'm sorry. I thought you're a waiter and asked you to get I thought he was a waiter asked him to give me a surviette.

Here's the big podcasters, the big leaguers, coming in here and just bossing us around.

I spelt glass of water, it fell around the plate. But some of it I'm sure fell into that man's chickens. But he very, he very, very graciously did not make a fuss about it and just carried on eating and we just walked around anyway. I was about to Jack asked me a question. And it wasn't going to be a simple answer. It was gonna be a long answer. So I said, look, it's a bit of a story. You ready for a story? And Jack said you're ready for a story because, you know, I was tired. I knew he was tired. And just because we were sat next to each other doesn't mean that we have to keep on talking. But told him the story about how I met my husband.

Wonderful. Right? Wow, time is ticking by because time does right. That's what time does. But is there anything else that anyone wants to share? Or do we say you should have been there?

We covered choice of language instead of saying I have to be at a conference say I get to go to a conference that will just change your mindset around it. We talked about so much and you know the The thing that we won't be able to easily replicate or actually not replicated at all is the advice that the audience gave for us. So one thing that stuck in my mind is Alice Robins advice thrown as well. She was great. And she's done it. Yeah, she is. And she did. Tick tock, whatever you call it, they call really just a tick tock. But about her ticks is about her day in Brighton where she gave a talk. And then she went for a nap. And she said, That's what I was gonna do. But she has a phrase that she uses for her Mondays. I can't remember what the phrase was. On Mondays, all she does bare minimum. Please, we were talking about starting the week all energised, but feeling burnt out by the end of Monday. And she says that on Mondays, all she does is check her emails. So I think that was that was really great advice.

She said that, then you sort of set up your expectation for what you're going to achieve that day. And you can always check your emails. But then what she said as well is if you do achieve anything out, then you feel like yeah, I got this. But yeah, so it's always wonderful. And as far as that that's why we're urging people to come to the, to the actual events in person is because it's not just the three of us that are talking and sharing our experiences. But it's also hearing from people as well. That's really, that's really valuable.

Yeah, definitely, I think there's a huge factor in having different speakers there, and the attendees there. And people talking about their experiences from both perspectives, right. And using Alice as a perfect example there. We were talking at the new divergent meetup afterwards. And we were saying like, the big reason, a part of coming to brightonSEO is to learn stuff and networking is that you get to see your friends as well. And Alex is one of those people for me now, we have now become like, the people who are hanging out together a lot of brightonSEO has like it's now a big part of Brighton is seeing the people who you feel most comfortable with. And we're creating this little group of like, yeah, we will, you know, really like hanging out with each other and, and having that moment and setting those expectations for Benjamin Monday's is the kind of the last thing I'll say about this, because you should have been there to hear the rest of it listeners is something Alice and I have also learned from Miriam Jessier, as well is planning your meetings as well, because they can be super, super draining the same applies to talk. The same applies to if you're doing meetings at conferences as well, I don't envy those people who have to then go off and do a client call and then run off to a talk. I've never done it. But I know plenty of people do they have to do work while they're there as well. But planning those out and making sure you have time before to prep and time after to recover. So you're not as I said earlier, literally running from one to the other makes such a huge difference for me. And I've now applied that to my working week, as much as I can in that I'm not my own Boston stuff. But Miriam and Alice being freelancers can really, really tailor this to their energy levels and their mood and things like that is don't book a bunch of stuff happening on a Friday afternoon, don't book a bunch of client calls first thing on a Monday, if that's not how you are, maybe you're brilliant on a Monday. And that's when you should book all of your stuff on a Monday. But understand and what I've done over the last few months is record my energy levels and mood as I'm going through the week. Oh, Tuesday afternoon is always brilliant for me, and I'm most productive, where it's Thursday morning on my worst or wherever understanding yourself and learning that really has helped me then plan out my week. And if I know there's a really important piece of work that needs doing, I can then use that focus time and the high energy time to really get it done. And then plan around. I cannot be dealing with three client calls in a row on a Monday, I do not have the energy for this. And knowing that applies to conferences. It applies to my work week as well. It's something I've learned from both Alice and Miriam over knowing them over the last couple of years.

Like hearing all this such great advice. And it's just it all boils down to just being kinder to yourself and putting yourself first and not saying yes to everything and learning about yourself. And yeah, I said earlier that I'm on that journey of getting to know who I am being more self aware. And I'm always going to be learning and yeah, like it's not scary. Well, I suppose it is a bit scary because you feel like you're you're opening up a bit of you that you've not done before. So you're like oh, what's gonna come out like but do you know what, as soon as you start being more curious, and the next like, if anything like the next week, just just jot down so whatever activities like whether that's something that you do in full work or something socially, or admin or whatever, while you're going through it, just jot down, like how your energy levels were. And then you'll be, the more that you do this, the more that you become aware. So the next time you're at a conference or the next time that you're in a energy draining scenario, you know, okay, I know what I need to do. So that I'm not a shell of a human when I come to the end of the conference, right. So yeah, right. Um, I think I think that's it really. We've, we've covered as much as we can, and you're just gonna have to be there next time.

Yeah exactly. That's, that's the thing to take away is come to the next one. That's the thing to take away?

Well, what we can do is, so we've put together a Google form, that we can pop in the show notes. So the plan is that every time there's a brightonSEO, every time there's a conference at an event, me Jack and Tazmin will be there to do a live podcast. And we always pick topics that are related to conferences and stuff. So we've done anxiety. We've done energy levels. So we'll just we'll carry on picking because we've scratched to scratch the surface, haven't we both? Yes. There's so much that we can tap into. So yeah, so check out in the shownotes. Look out for that Google form. And you can sign up and then we can keep you in the loop about the live events and when you can get tickets and all that information so you can be with us next time. And we promise not to spam

We're SEO people we won't spam you we promise.

So wonderful. Why. Well, thank you for a lovely conversation. Jack and Tazmin.

Thank you. For the Friday afternoon chat.

And yes, should we say goodbye then? Goodbye then.

Goodbye everyone.

Jack I'll put you or put you on the spot here. Like you. You say goodbye. You do. You do the podcasting host thing.

I'll do my podcast hosting. I'll switch on and do the host thing. You can follow of course the Search for Candour podcast. Search for us on any podcast apps and same for SEO mindset as well go and search the SEO mindset or go to seomindset.co.uk or withcandour.co.uk. And you can get either of us there, all of the show notes, all the links, all that stuff, either of the podcasts, and there's also links for all of our social media stuff as well. So you can go follow myself. Follow Sarah and follow Tazmin on there as well.

Wonderful and we really hope to see as many faces at our next live podcast as possible.