Lauren Brennan is the Managing Director of Project Knitwell, a charity dedicated to using knitting as a wellness tool and bringing this to people in hospital and community settings. Lauren speaks about her own journey in using to knitting to benefit her wellbeing as well as her involvement in project knitwell, bringing the joy and comfort of knitting to people in need.
View the transcript for this episode on the Captivate player
Find out more about Project knitwell at their website
Follow them on Instagram: @projectknitwell
Find out more about Dr Mia Hobbs and the Why I Knit Podcast and read the blog on the website
Follow Dr Mia Hobbs on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic
Yarn, books and patterns discussion in this episode:
TheHand by Frank R. Wilson: 9780679740476 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books
Woolly wormhead azula hat azula — Woolly Wormhead
Dude sweater Ravelry: TheKnitter's Dude pattern by Andrea Rangel
Starting Point wrap Ravelry:Starting Point pattern by Joji Locatelli
Mentioned in this episode:
Self-Care One Stitch at a Time
Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knitt podcast. My name
Mia Hobbs:is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's
Mia Hobbs:passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental well
Mia Hobbs:being. Each week I interview a different knitter about why they
Mia Hobbs:knit and how it benefits their mental health. This week on the
Mia Hobbs:podcast, I'm talking to Lauren Brennan, who is the managing
Mia Hobbs:director of Project Knitwell, you can find links to Project
Mia Hobbs:Knitwell, and any of the yarns and patterns that Lauren and I
Mia Hobbs:discuss in the show notes. Hi, Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
Lauren Brennan:Hi, thanks so much for having me. Mia, I
Lauren Brennan:appreciate the opportunity to talk about knitting for
Lauren Brennan:wellness.
Mia Hobbs:Thank you for joining me. So I always start by asking
Mia Hobbs:how your story with knitting began.
Lauren Brennan:You know, I feel like my story isn't terribly
Lauren Brennan:unique. I was taught to knit in the fourth grade by my
Lauren Brennan:grandmother,
Mia Hobbs:and how old is fourth grade for those of us who don't.
Lauren Brennan:I was just just about less. Um just about nine.
Lauren Brennan:Almost ten. Okay. Yeah, so pretty young. And I was very
Lauren Brennan:good with my hands and my grandmother recognised that I
Lauren Brennan:really enjoyed working with my hands. The unusual part of my
Lauren Brennan:story is that the time that she taught me, she was going through
Lauren Brennan:experimental treatment for an aggressive kidney cancer. And
Lauren Brennan:she was really in a time of stress for her, I think it was
Lauren Brennan:an opportunity for her to pass down a long standing tradition.
Lauren Brennan:Many, many families have grandmothers and mothers who
Lauren Brennan:knits but I think it was a wellness tool for her in that
Lauren Brennan:moment. And she recognised that she could teach me that wellness
Lauren Brennan:tool and really share a lifelong tool with me. I still have
Lauren Brennan:actually, I keep it here on my desk, the original project on
Lauren Brennan:the needles that we shared together. Yeah. And it's you
Lauren Brennan:know, it has all these bits and bobbles and all of these little,
Lauren Brennan:you know, little squirrely bits. But yeah, she was very patient
Lauren Brennan:with me. And you can see where she worked with me at the
Lauren Brennan:beginning and it gets wider and wider. Somehow I was
Mia Hobbs:very often find that with people I've taught, I think
Mia Hobbs:it's sometimes when you the yarn gets flipped over the back and
Mia Hobbs:you turn the first stitch on the needle into two stitches, I
Mia Hobbs:think,
Lauren Brennan:right? There's no, yeah, the increases on the
Lauren Brennan:edge are really, you know, I was I was letting it grow. And I
Lauren Brennan:didn't even know that that was what I was up to. I always I
Lauren Brennan:always tell people that I teach to knit that, every mistake is
Lauren Brennan:actually a technique. And so really, you know, I was going
Lauren Brennan:for a crescent. Right. I was, yeah.
Mia Hobbs:Amazing. So amazing. You still have it. I think that
Mia Hobbs:thats quite rare,
Lauren Brennan:my mom found it in an old trunk not too long
Lauren Brennan:ago. And I can't even believe that it's on the same needles
Lauren Brennan:that my grandmother shared. And I should have it framed, you
Lauren Brennan:know, I should frame it or something. But yeah, I like to
Lauren Brennan:hold on to it every once in a while. And I put it up on my
Lauren Brennan:bulletin board.
Mia Hobbs:So Oh, that's amazing. Thank you for sharing
Mia Hobbs:that. So that you've still got your first ever project that you
Mia Hobbs:did with your grandma. Yeah. And did you keep knitting straight
Mia Hobbs:away? Or was there a time where you didn't knit?
Lauren Brennan:I did I knit for quite a while I did some finger
Lauren Brennan:knitting. I did a lot of weaving looms, you know, tiny little
Lauren Brennan:loom work. I, my walls in my childhood bedroom were covered
Lauren Brennan:in little projects that I'd made. They still are covered in
Lauren Brennan:some of them, actually, really, which my parents are, are good
Lauren Brennan:at preserving our childhood memories. I think I'm saying but
Lauren Brennan:I think that I had a long gap between probably, you know, late
Lauren Brennan:middle school into college. And when I went to college, a friend
Lauren Brennan:of mine was studying in Ireland, actually. And I went to visit
Lauren Brennan:her and we were on a local bus. She was studying there. So we
Lauren Brennan:were, you know, we were not quite tourists. But we met these
Lauren Brennan:old women that were knitting. And they said here, here, take
Lauren Brennan:this wool that here take this wool and knit with us. And they
Lauren Brennan:were insistent that we knit and you know, I had not knit in
Lauren Brennan:years, but I remembered the pattern and I remembered how to
Lauren Brennan:knit just riding a bike. Yeah. And I was kind of amazed to that
Lauren Brennan:that was possible that I could just pick it right back up.
Lauren Brennan:Yeah. At the next bus stop. They literally almost dragged us to a
Lauren Brennan:yarn shop and I bought a bunch of Irish wool. That was
Lauren Brennan:beautiful. I still have it. And I I spent a lot of the rest of
Lauren Brennan:the trip knitting, you know, basic garter stitch. That was
Lauren Brennan:sort of my my flashback to knitting was not very advanced.
Lauren Brennan:I never really had had much advanced knitting at that point.
Lauren Brennan:But but those repetitive stitches, that's the value to
Lauren Brennan:me.
Mia Hobbs:Yeah, that's amazing, amazing story. And I'm sure they
Mia Hobbs:probably have no idea how significant that was and what
Mia Hobbs:you've ended up doing now?
Lauren Brennan:Yes, I wish I could go back in a time machine
Lauren Brennan:and talk to them again and find out what their story was. And
Lauren Brennan:they were very interesting ladies that they were even
Lauren Brennan:interested in talking to us was was a joy. Really? Yeah.
Mia Hobbs:And that, you know, you already had you already knew
Mia Hobbs:how to knit did they know that?
Lauren Brennan:Yeah. Well, it was funny. I said, Oh, I used to
Lauren Brennan:knit you know, so I had shared that, but it had been many, many
Lauren Brennan:years. But I was always pretty pretty. My hands are really, I
Lauren Brennan:think, engaged with a certain part of my brain. So I think I
Lauren Brennan:was always pretty handy. And some, you know, I think knitting
Lauren Brennan:is not for everyone, but some people are really driven by
Lauren Brennan:handwork. And I think that that ignites a certain part of our
Lauren Brennan:brains. And, you know, really, scientifically, it's proven to
Lauren Brennan:be a really great tool for a lot of people to, to regulate their,
Lauren Brennan:your hands, actually, there's a book by Frank Wilson, called The
Lauren Brennan:Hand, and it talks about how your hand is connected to 60% of
Lauren Brennan:your brain activity, which if you think about the the, the
Lauren Brennan:activity that goes on in your brain, I mean, 60% is pretty
Lauren Brennan:significant. So if you're able to ignite that much of your
Lauren Brennan:brain with bilateral knitting movements, you're really able to
Lauren Brennan:bring yourself out of pain responses, you're able to bring
Lauren Brennan:yourself down and regulate all of the neurotransmitters that
Lauren Brennan:are igniting in us every day, and some are good and some are
Lauren Brennan:bad. So I'm excited that I, whenever I can teach someone to
Lauren Brennan:knit when they're facing any sort of pressure, or stress or
Lauren Brennan:or give them that tool ahead of that point, I think it's it's
Lauren Brennan:such a benefit for the long term, you know, advances that go
Lauren Brennan:on within our, within our mental health, and also just in the
Mia Hobbs:And, obviously, now you're involved with Project net
Mia Hobbs:neuroplasticity of our brain? Yeah.
Mia Hobbs:Well, and that's something you're doing for a living. But I
Mia Hobbs:wonder for you personally, when that link first dawned on you,
Mia Hobbs:or when you first experienced that as something that knitting
Mia Hobbs:was not just doing something with your hands, but it was
Mia Hobbs:actually helping on a psychological level? Yeah.
Lauren Brennan:That is a really great question. I was thinking
Lauren Brennan:about the, the title of your, you know, the title of your
Lauren Brennan:podcast is why why you knit? Yeah, why I knit. And I feel
Lauren Brennan:like I knit because I have to which it may sound very extreme
Lauren Brennan:or overstated,
Mia Hobbs:not to me.
Lauren Brennan:Not to you good. But I really believe that it
Lauren Brennan:helps bring me back to a baseline. It provides just an
Lauren Brennan:overall sense of calm and well being. I think it took me a
Lauren Brennan:while to realise that these are proven benefits scientifically.
Lauren Brennan:You know, I, I shake my head now thinking, of course, it lowers
Lauren Brennan:my blood pressure, I can really feel that. Yeah. And it took me
Lauren Brennan:a while to make the connection between the scientific evidence.
Lauren Brennan:And what Project Knitwell tries to do is provide more outlets
Lauren Brennan:for research, to give people more of a mindset that this is
Lauren Brennan:actually a tool for well being and a tool for wellness and not
Lauren Brennan:just a luxurious hobby, or, you know, an opportunity to unwind.
Lauren Brennan:It's just really recentering and and rebalancing those chemicals
Lauren Brennan:in your brain and giving you a sense of satisfaction. At the
Lauren Brennan:same time. I think there are so many activities that can
Lauren Brennan:rebalance our brain like meditation, and yoga and all of
Lauren Brennan:these other activities that other people find as releases.
Lauren Brennan:But I think that knitting has the added benefit of something a
Lauren Brennan:presentable at the end, a gift that you can give someone or
Lauren Brennan:something that you can have as a tangible piece. Sentimental
Lauren Brennan:piece, too. I love to knit on trips. And it to me that is my
Lauren Brennan:souvenir of the trip. Yeah, you know, it's a memory that I hold.
Lauren Brennan:You know, I remember where I made each of the shawls that I
Lauren Brennan:have, and I can I can keep track of the 17 sweaters I knit during
Lauren Brennan:COVID
Mia Hobbs:17 That's impressive.
Lauren Brennan:I think of how absurd that is. but you know, I
Lauren Brennan:really genuinely was knitting because I had to It kept me
Lauren Brennan:going and, and when there was no other, no other sense of
Lauren Brennan:satisfaction, I always had my knitting and that day, you know,
Lauren Brennan:every day that I could cast something off was the day where
Lauren Brennan:I felt particularly satisfied. So yeah.
Mia Hobbs:And how about once you've finished the thing? It
Mia Hobbs:sounds like you do keep that kind of relationship with the
Mia Hobbs:object?
Lauren Brennan:Yes, I agree. I think that even when you give
Lauren Brennan:something as a gift, or maybe especially as you give something
Lauren Brennan:as a gift, it becomes a really sentimental piece of you. And
Lauren Brennan:it's funny, I think I, you know, I, I don't always give knitted
Lauren Brennan:gifts to other knitters. So sometimes people don't quite get
Lauren Brennan:how much has gone into the item you're sharing with them. And
Lauren Brennan:that can be challenging. Sometimes you want to make sure
Lauren Brennan:that you're giving the gift to someone that that gets it, you
Lauren Brennan:know, they they understand the, the effort and the you know, the
Lauren Brennan:feeling that went into that is, I think is important. But I
Lauren Brennan:yeah, I keep I keep all of my knits, you feel like you have
Lauren Brennan:quite a few items that have a sentimental attachment to or
Mia Hobbs:Yeah, definitely. And I think in a in a similar way to
Mia Hobbs:you actually. And I think I have grown into my the way in which
Mia Hobbs:I've used knitting deliberately to help me and I think I did it
Mia Hobbs:because, you know, I started doing it, my mum suggested it as
Mia Hobbs:a way of managing kind of exam stress, when I started my
Mia Hobbs:training, because she'd met someone else who'd learned to
Mia Hobbs:Brickley. And she thought I needed to do something that was
Mia Hobbs:unrelated to psychology. So she said, Why don't you learn to
Mia Hobbs:knit or relearn I've learned as a kid, and it kind of took off
Mia Hobbs:from there, really, but it has taken me a while to really think
Mia Hobbs:about the many ways that it has helped me. And I think now I
Mia Hobbs:deliberately choose projects for significant moments or
Mia Hobbs:transitions, like when I left working in the NHS, the National
Mia Hobbs:Health Service here, that was a big thing in terms of my career.
Mia Hobbs:And I felt like I needed a big project to take me through that
Mia Hobbs:transition. So I started a particular shawl that I'd been
Mia Hobbs:kind of planning to knit and that was a project. But now I
Mia Hobbs:still have it and associated with that transition in my life
Lauren Brennan:That's so wonderful. Yes, yes, I love that
Lauren Brennan:you use the word deliberate, because I do think it can be
Lauren Brennan:really a something that you think about. And I think
Lauren Brennan:knitters really are deliberate in a lot of what we do. And I
Lauren Brennan:think that that's a good, that's a really good word to describe
Lauren Brennan:kind of the practical approach to a new project and, and
Lauren Brennan:thinking of it as something that's deliberately improving
Lauren Brennan:your wellness and, you know, helping you and driving you
Lauren Brennan:towards a sense of accomplishment that you wouldn't
Lauren Brennan:necessarily have in other things. And, and also, like you
Lauren Brennan:mentioned, it can be a distraction, you know, it can be
Lauren Brennan:a way to get to pull yourself out of something that may be all
Lauren Brennan:consuming and it might be better to be more balanced about it.
Mia Hobbs:It'd be really helpful to hear about Project
Mia Hobbs:Knitwell, and how that started and about your involvement.
Lauren Brennan:Absolutely. So project net well has been a
Lauren Brennan:formal nonprofit since 2010. So we're we just celebrated our
Lauren Brennan:11th birthday, which is long standing. Yes, thank you. We're
Lauren Brennan:very excited to provide knitting as a wellness tool in hospital
Lauren Brennan:settings and community settings. Throughout our this region. We
Lauren Brennan:have also expanded to providing virtual knitting instruction
Lauren Brennan:through Knitwell in the cloud, which we're very excited to have
Lauren Brennan:more touch points and more opportunity for people to feel
Lauren Brennan:connected to knitting. We have found that we've taught over
Lauren Brennan:6000 knitters, new knitters have been born. Yeah, which I think
Lauren Brennan:is really powerful. And we're really reaching them primarily
Lauren Brennan:at the point where they are most stressed. So we work with
Lauren Brennan:patients, we work with their caregivers, people that are
Lauren Brennan:primarily waiting, and they may need something that pulls them
Lauren Brennan:out of their patient status, right. So everything they deal
Lauren Brennan:with in the day has to do with their illness. And if we can
Lauren Brennan:bring in knitting as a distraction or as something that
Lauren Brennan:can provide them a sense of calm, to soothe them and comfort
Lauren Brennan:them in that moment. That's really our ultimate goal. We
Lauren Brennan:have our mission is knitting with a purpose for comfort,
Lauren Brennan:wellness and community. And I think of comfort as that point
Lauren Brennan:of stress. So we come in and we swoop in when they're actually
Lauren Brennan:in the hospital receiving treatment for cancer, and we're
Lauren Brennan:providing it out that point as a comfort, but wellness. I think
Lauren Brennan:of that as a preventative measure so we're trying to reach
Lauren Brennan:people before For they hit a point of stress, so that they
Lauren Brennan:can build their parachute, if you will, they can have knitting
Lauren Brennan:as part of their mental health toolkits, that so when they do
Lauren Brennan:have a crisis moment, they can turn to knitting to stabilise
Lauren Brennan:that and give them an opportunity to release that
Lauren Brennan:tension. And then community of course, is really the top of our
Lauren Brennan:of our house, that's the roof above all of it. And really
Lauren Brennan:community is what drives a lot of us to continue to knit. And
Lauren Brennan:building that sense of you think about the future and how
Lauren Brennan:knitting can provide a sense of well being among senior citizens
Lauren Brennan:that come together and knitting circles young people too not not
Lauren Brennan:just everyone that comes together and knits provides a
Lauren Brennan:really strong sense of community, which I think is a
Lauren Brennan:really wonderful piece of the pie.
Mia Hobbs:So most of the people you're working with, are they
Mia Hobbs:new to knitting or some of the people who have have knitted
Mia Hobbs:previously,
Lauren Brennan:we work with both, I would say primarily,
Lauren Brennan:we're teaching new knitters, there are quite a few people
Lauren Brennan:that will say, Oh, I, I learned from my grandmother when I was
Lauren Brennan:young. Yeah, but I haven't knit in a really long time. So
Lauren Brennan:sometimes we're catching them back up to speed. But I would
Lauren Brennan:say that the people that find it most rewarding are those that
Lauren Brennan:may have never tried it. And they think, Oh, I'm not sure if
Lauren Brennan:I'll be good at this, or I'm not that great with my hands. But if
Lauren Brennan:they can overcome that, they find that we've found that they
Lauren Brennan:find the most satisfaction from it. In the end that perseverance
Lauren Brennan:is really powerful. You know, you release so much dopamine
Lauren Brennan:when you feel that rush of Oh, I really was able to overcome
Lauren Brennan:something that I wasn't certain I would be good at that. I think
Lauren Brennan:a lot of children I know you work with a lot of children, do
Lauren Brennan:you feel that they have that sense of accomplishment? Like
Lauren Brennan:they weren't sure if they could do it yet, but they were able to
Mia Hobbs:yeah I really do and really feeling kind of proud of
Mia Hobbs:themselves when they've achieved something new and showing it off
Mia Hobbs:to other people. And so yeah, really strong sense of pride. I
Mia Hobbs:suppose it's something I still feel like I get out of knitting
Mia Hobbs:that when I do a new like recently, I've been knitting a
Mia Hobbs:hat, which has got very unusual construction. I don't know if
Mia Hobbs:you know Woolly Wormhead who designs these amazing hats that
Mia Hobbs:are knitted sideways.
Lauren Brennan:How fun. Wow, I have one right here. It's one of
Lauren Brennan:my favourites because it covers my ears. Like at the this is the
Lauren Brennan:yes, she has she has the break in back it's really wonderful.
Mia Hobbs:Oh, that's beautiful. And so I'm knitting the Azula I
Mia Hobbs:think it is. So from the elemental collection, but it's a
Mia Hobbs:provisional cast on, which is not something I've tried many
Mia Hobbs:times and certainly not ever successfully I'm going to say
Mia Hobbs:with a crochet hook. And I mastered that. And then it was a
Mia Hobbs:different, very different looking pattern that I had to
Mia Hobbs:learn how to read. And that involved a lot of going back
Mia Hobbs:over the first few rows and trying to figure out where it
Mia Hobbs:was I'd gone wrong with the short rows. And then I got it
Mia Hobbs:and I figured out why. And I still got that boost of oh, I've
Mia Hobbs:achieved something new. So even 15 years down the line of
Mia Hobbs:knitting every day.
Lauren Brennan:Yes, and that actually is the most the best
Lauren Brennan:part about knitting, there's always more yeah, there's always
Lauren Brennan:more to strive towards and to try out. And there's always
Lauren Brennan:little quirky things that you may have forgotten that you
Lauren Brennan:could go back to or, but I do feel like it's always expanding
Lauren Brennan:and, and also the fundamental, just repetitive movements, even
Lauren Brennan:regardless of the challenges are really calming and are able to
Lauren Brennan:help people get back to baseline also
Mia Hobbs:are you teaching people individually or in
Mia Hobbs:groups?
Lauren Brennan:We primarily teach one on one, we have found
Lauren Brennan:that that connection is when we're most successful, and part
Lauren Brennan:of it is it's challenging to follow along without some some
Lauren Brennan:sort of personal connection. We have occasionally taught in a
Lauren Brennan:larger group setting. We have groups of nurses, for instance,
Lauren Brennan:that we can come together in a sort of a professional
Lauren Brennan:development workshop to give them an opportunity to learn
Lauren Brennan:what is knitting all about how would it you know, can they they
Lauren Brennan:can give it a try in a group setting. And we'll bounce
Lauren Brennan:through you know, we'll have two or three volunteers that can
Lauren Brennan:bounce around the room and help out. But when we are faced with
Lauren Brennan:folks that are in a stressful situation, part of the benefit
Lauren Brennan:is really the conversation that you're having with them. And
Lauren Brennan:it's not that you're approaching it as an art therapist, you're
Lauren Brennan:not there for therapy. You're just They're to give them a
Lauren Brennan:chance to feel like they can have a normal human conversation
Lauren Brennan:that doesn't have anything to do with their illness or whatever
Lauren Brennan:stress they're facing. We work with a group of Afghan refugees
Lauren Brennan:who don't actually speak English yet, and they're learning
Lauren Brennan:English, but the presence of us and being able to show them with
Lauren Brennan:our hands, and both of our hands working in unison, just being
Lauren Brennan:there together, and they come back with these glorious scarves
Lauren Brennan:that are taller than they are, I have this great picture of one
Lauren Brennan:of them standing with this enormous scarf that's almost as
Lauren Brennan:tall as she is. And she was so proud to come back the week
Lauren Brennan:after she learned to knit with this giant scarf that she had
Lauren Brennan:been so productive with. And so she was immediately a brand new
Lauren Brennan:knitter, yes. And we immediately gave her more yarn.
Mia Hobbs:Wow. So she's really run with it. What's the kind of
Mia Hobbs:feedback you get from some of your clients from Project
Mia Hobbs:Knitwell
Lauren Brennan:Well, yeah, that's a great question I, we've
Lauren Brennan:really reached out to quite a few younger folks that we're
Lauren Brennan:really trying to figure out ways to make them feel connected with
Lauren Brennan:what really is truly not a grandmother's hobby anymore. I
Lauren Brennan:mean, it's really ridiculous to think of it that way. And we
Lauren Brennan:have so many young knitters at a school for children with
Lauren Brennan:emotional challenges. We started running a summer camp there a
Lauren Brennan:few years ago, and now we're there all year. And the group of
Lauren Brennan:children that join us are really primarily teenagers are actually
Lauren Brennan:almost all boys, which is interesting. And they do not
Lauren Brennan:have any mindset for girl or boy crafts, or hobbies. And I think
Lauren Brennan:that's just wonderful. But the feedback that we get from, from
Lauren Brennan:those students, and also from the nursing students that we're
Lauren Brennan:working with, at the collegiate level, they are telling us, you
Lauren Brennan:know, I'm spending a lot less time on my phone, I'm not
Lauren Brennan:scrolling, I can check out of all of that, video games, all of
Lauren Brennan:that they can, instead use their hands in a niche and really find
Lauren Brennan:another outlet that's really timeless. And I think giving
Lauren Brennan:them other benefits that you know, beyond what they would get
Lauren Brennan:if they were just reading or doing athletics or other things,
Lauren Brennan:there's another layer to knitting that they wouldn't
Lauren Brennan:necessarily get if they were always distracted on their
Lauren Brennan:phones, and it's so great to just have a chance to, I find
Lauren Brennan:that I put down my phone and check out very easily when I'm
Lauren Brennan:in a in a knitting and knitting. You know, in a I'm in a
Lauren Brennan:different mindset with when I knit, and it helps me really be
Lauren Brennan:removed from the rest of the worries that might be out there
Lauren Brennan:on, you know, lingering on the news channels on my phone and so
Lauren Brennan:forth.
Mia Hobbs:Yeah, so it feels like a more calming and
Mia Hobbs:grounding activity for you. Absolutely. And I guess you also
Mia Hobbs:have something to show for it, unlike an hour of scrolling on
Mia Hobbs:Instagram, right?
Lauren Brennan:Absolutely, yes. And you have something that
Lauren Brennan:you've, you've been able to put out into the world, you know,
Lauren Brennan:it's something that, you know, in the ancient world, I mean,
Lauren Brennan:there were always people working with their hands. And And also,
Lauren Brennan:if you think about worry, stones, and beads and things
Lauren Brennan:that people will use there, they'll have a repetitive
Lauren Brennan:movement with their fingers. And there are so many cultures that
Lauren Brennan:have that type of tool. And I think knitting really is, is
Lauren Brennan:that for so many people with that repetitive movements. I
Lauren Brennan:think of it as meditation with my hands. So even though I'm not
Lauren Brennan:really that great at just meditating, yeah, I do think I
Lauren Brennan:get the same benefit or the same feeling that I would get
Lauren Brennan:meditating when I'm knitting, a very repetitive pattern that I
Lauren Brennan:don't have to necessarily pay attention to a chart or yeah,
Lauren Brennan:there's two types of knitting, I always say I've always had, I
Lauren Brennan:always have at least two projects, the repetitive,
Lauren Brennan:easygoing, portable bag that I can just grab and go to the
Lauren Brennan:swimming pool and knit while my kids are swimming. And then I've
Lauren Brennan:got the more complicated colour work pattern that I'm really
Lauren Brennan:focused in on and that's when I need the ultimate distraction.
Lauren Brennan:And that's really what that that more complicated pattern can
Lauren Brennan:somehow have a different set of rewards in the long run too
Mia Hobbs:Yeah, I'm exactly the same with those two categories.
Lauren Brennan:Are you Oh, good,
Mia Hobbs:exactly the same because I think sometimes Yeah,
Mia Hobbs:like you said, you want to do something meditative almost with
Mia Hobbs:your hands. And I find, certainly for me, I focus better
Mia Hobbs:on something if I was attending a zoom training or something
Mia Hobbs:where I had to sit still and listen, I would want to knit and
Mia Hobbs:that would help me focus. And that could be, you know,
Mia Hobbs:knitting lots of stockinette in the round. And, you know, could
Mia Hobbs:be a sock or a hat or something. And then I would like to have
Mia Hobbs:something more complicated, like that hat pattern where I do need
Mia Hobbs:to focus I need to count and look at a chart, but that's for,
Mia Hobbs:I call it active relaxation, where my whole brain needs to be
Mia Hobbs:busy doing something in order to allow it to turn off from other
Mia Hobbs:stressful things.
Lauren Brennan:Yeah, active relaxation. Right? Yes, that it?
Lauren Brennan:That's a perfect way to describe it, I think. Yeah,
Mia Hobbs:I used to go to salsa dancing lessons. And I noticed
Mia Hobbs:that actually, there were loads of doctors at salsa. And I was
Mia Hobbs:thinking, Why are they all here? And I think, I think I noticed
Mia Hobbs:them talking about it. Like they couldn't possibly think about
Mia Hobbs:what is a stressful and busy job. When they were trying to
Mia Hobbs:think about doing something different with their hands and
Mia Hobbs:their, you know, their arms and their hands and their feet and
Mia Hobbs:listening to music all at the same time. They were just
Mia Hobbs:mutually exclusive. And I suppose I feel like that about
Mia Hobbs:complicated patterns that, you know, you just can't think about
Mia Hobbs:other things at the same time.
Lauren Brennan:Right? Absolutely. And I think it's
Lauren Brennan:even true in more extreme cases, where when people are facing
Lauren Brennan:pain in their body, you know, actual physical pain, it can
Lauren Brennan:really help pull people back, it really pulls your brain in a
Lauren Brennan:different direction. And so I think physically, and
Lauren Brennan:scientifically, that has really been proven for so many folks
Lauren Brennan:that you can really reorganise those synapses in your brain.
Lauren Brennan:And I, I feel very strongly that there's so much research
Lauren Brennan:potential to expand on and Project Knitwell really cares
Lauren Brennan:about figuring out ways that we can study more of these benefits
Lauren Brennan:that we all already feel. Yeah. And we already know, but how do
Lauren Brennan:we prove it is the real question.
Mia Hobbs:Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I would love to
Mia Hobbs:hear about a significant project for you, Lauren, can you think
Mia Hobbs:of a significant knitting project could be one of yours or
Mia Hobbs:one from project knitwell,
Lauren Brennan:that is a really great question. And I
Lauren Brennan:immediately think of a sweater that I knit for my husband,
Lauren Brennan:which was really It started really as a labour of love. It
Lauren Brennan:was the dude sweater from The Big Lebowski, which is a movie
Lauren Brennan:that it's Who is it? Jeff Bridges is in it. And it's a
Lauren Brennan:it's kind of an edgy, quirky indie type movie, but it has a
Lauren Brennan:very recognisable sweater that has a very unique pattern to it.
Lauren Brennan:I think it might actually be a Native American pattern. So
Lauren Brennan:it's, I can I could show it to you. But it was the first
Lauren Brennan:project that I I knit in the round, okay. The knitters dude
Lauren Brennan:is by Andrea Rangel, I believe. And she, it required a steek
Lauren Brennan:which is cutting into your knitting. And this was one of
Lauren Brennan:the largest projects I had ever done. And it had all of these
Lauren Brennan:gigantic colour work floats, which are really challenging for
Lauren Brennan:colour work knitters to catch. And I, when I cut into that
Lauren Brennan:project, I thought, well, here we go, this is gonna sink this
Lauren Brennan:ship is either gonna sink or sail. And I still think of that
Lauren Brennan:moment
Mia Hobbs:by that point, you've knitted the entire thing. And
Mia Hobbs:then we're gonna cut right downt the centre of it
Lauren Brennan:saying, yes, hours and hours of work, months,
Lauren Brennan:months of work. And then I was getting my sharpest scissors out
Lauren Brennan:and I was getting ready to cut down the centre. And luckily, I
Lauren Brennan:did set up the camera, I had the mindset of I need to show
Lauren Brennan:someone and I have really great knitting friends and I said, I'm
Lauren Brennan:going to at least show someone that I'm, I'm cutting into this.
Lauren Brennan:If the, if the ship sinks, at least I'll have a memory of the
Lauren Brennan:ship sinking. So I, I have a time lapse of me cutting cutting
Lauren Brennan:into it. And I had done every reinforcement, I did the crochet
Lauren Brennan:reinforcement, I run the knitting, I'd run the sewing
Lauren Brennan:machine up and down the line. So I was pretty confident that it
Lauren Brennan:wouldn't sink completely. But it could have partially, you know,
Lauren Brennan:there could be a partial failure but you know what, it was really
Lauren Brennan:exhilarating when it worked out and you know, the, the collar
Lauren Brennan:worked out I ended up making a lot of modifications to the
Lauren Brennan:pattern because it didn't quite fit. There were more many
Lauren Brennan:iterations I wanted to have it ready for Christmas and it was
Lauren Brennan:too long and it didn't have a I had a really awkward collar. And
Lauren Brennan:so I didn't have it ready for Christmas, but I think I had it
Lauren Brennan:ready by the end of January I had. I also not only did I cut
Lauren Brennan:down the middle, but I also chopped about six inches off the
Lauren Brennan:bottom because it had become a more of a duster than a
Lauren Brennan:cardigan. Men, or at least my husband wasn't as interested in
Lauren Brennan:a duster length. Yeah. So it was an adventure. And it definitely
Lauren Brennan:felt memorable to me. And I think that it was, it was also a
Lauren Brennan:sense of accomplishment. And even though, you know, he
Lauren Brennan:occasionally wears it, I probably it doesn't, it doesn't
Lauren Brennan:fit quite right. It fits pretty well, there's some good pictures
Lauren Brennan:of him in it. But I think that it's it was still well worth the
Lauren Brennan:time spent and the rewarding feeling that I overcame a lot to
Lauren Brennan:persevere. I you know, it could still be sitting in a bag
Lauren Brennan:somewhere, but it's wearable. So
Mia Hobbs:it sounds like it's almost like the knitters version
Mia Hobbs:of skydiving or something.
Lauren Brennan:Absolutely
Mia Hobbs:adrenaline fueled.
Lauren Brennan:yes it was I adrenaline is right. I really
Lauren Brennan:did feel that way. And you know, there was a certain high when it
Lauren Brennan:didn't completely unravel.
Mia Hobbs:Yeah, sure. A bit of magic. I'm interested in. And
Mia Hobbs:you mentioned a lot of kind of, I don't want to call them
Mia Hobbs:failures, but a lot of challenges along the way in that
Mia Hobbs:project. And I think that's something many knitters will
Mia Hobbs:relate to the idea of, you know, as I say, my knitting group, you
Mia Hobbs:know, none of us get to be an experienced knitter without
Mia Hobbs:having to unravel very many things. Possibly even most
Mia Hobbs:things get unravelled at some point to some extent. I'm
Mia Hobbs:interested in, I don't know how that feels for you what musings
Mia Hobbs:you have on that in terms of whether you've learned anything
Mia Hobbs:from it for the rest of your life, or
Lauren Brennan:right? Well, I'm a big believer in, there's a
Lauren Brennan:quote that says like, the person who doesn't make mistakes is
Lauren Brennan:unlikely to make anything. I think Paul Arden said that,
Lauren Brennan:okay, I think that knitting is really all about making
Lauren Brennan:mistakes, every mistake is actually a technique. And when I
Lauren Brennan:teach someone to knit, I'm usually explaining that to them
Lauren Brennan:right off the back. And I'm saying that right off the bat
Lauren Brennan:that, you know, every time you pull the yarn to the front by
Lauren Brennan:accident, that's actually a technique that you'll use later
Lauren Brennan:on. And that's a relief in a way that they can think of they can
Lauren Brennan:think of everything as if you make a mistake in a pattern, you
Lauren Brennan:know, if you make that mistake repeatedly, it's just a new
Lauren Brennan:technique, right?
Mia Hobbs:Or a new pattern
Lauren Brennan:or a new pattern. Yeah, so. So I think
Lauren Brennan:that, you know, my feeling on how things go when you're
Lauren Brennan:knitting something, and, you know, sometimes projects need to
Lauren Brennan:rest also, you know, if something is aggravating,
Lauren Brennan:there's no reason to, there's no reason to give it that
Lauren Brennan:aggravation in that moment. You know, don't give it don't give
Lauren Brennan:it that, you know, don't give it that level of attention in that
Lauren Brennan:moment. And just step back from it. I'm, I'm very good at
Lauren Brennan:letting my my WIPS or my work in progress. Yes, I'm good at
Lauren Brennan:letting them sit. And they don't taunt me the way they might
Lauren Brennan:taunt other people. Sometimes I, I find that some knitters with
Lauren Brennan:works in progress. They get really upset, like, Oh, I
Lauren Brennan:haven't finished that yet. I need to finish it, I need to get
Lauren Brennan:back to that. And I really think that it's okay to let them rest.
Lauren Brennan:Yeah. And I don't want them to taunt me or to make me feel like
Lauren Brennan:I'm not accomplishing something by letting it sit for a little
Lauren Brennan:while. And yeah, and sometimes it's just nice to come back to
Lauren Brennan:it later on. And I think that goes for a lot of things in our
Lauren Brennan:mental health that you have to step back from them in order to
Lauren Brennan:gain a little bit of perspective on maybe you look, look more in
Lauren Brennan:depth on what other people did to make that pattern work for
Lauren Brennan:them. And I find that going and looking at other people's
Lauren Brennan:projects on Ravelry is helpful. You know, I could say, oh, well,
Lauren Brennan:they it looks like they have the same problem with the collar
Lauren Brennan:that I was having. How did they overcome it? Or what did they do
Lauren Brennan:differently? Or are looking at other cardigans, like when I was
Lauren Brennan:working on the dude, I looked for other ideas of what to do
Lauren Brennan:about the collar that may be less awkward. And I really just
Lauren Brennan:invented my own collar that's totally different than the shawl
Lauren Brennan:collar that's called for in the pattern, which really wasn't
Lauren Brennan:working. So you know, there's ways to kind of get around and
Lauren Brennan:then that perseverance and it can be pretty powerful too.
Mia Hobbs:Do you think it spills over into other areas of
Mia Hobbs:your life? Do you think you've taken those things you've
Mia Hobbs:learned from knitting and helped you to be more I don't know,
Mia Hobbs:mindful of the process or able to tolerate mistakes in inverted
Mia Hobbs:commas in other areas.
Lauren Brennan:Yeah, I think so. I think I definitely feel
Lauren Brennan:like I'm a more patient person because of knitting. And I've
Lauren Brennan:always, I am very perseverent. I don't, I don't usually give up
Lauren Brennan:very easily. So I think that that's a piece that I take with
Lauren Brennan:me into other parts of my life. And I think it's a good skill to
Lauren Brennan:have or a good mindset to have that you can always keep trying.
Mia Hobbs:Yeah, I think it's made me more appreciative of the
Mia Hobbs:process. I think of other things like, you know, starting a
Mia Hobbs:business after I left the National Health Service, not
Mia Hobbs:having to have figured it all out and got to the end result
Mia Hobbs:immediately. But to be able to think, no, I'm on a journey
Mia Hobbs:towards that. That might be hopefully where I'm headed, but
Mia Hobbs:it's alright to not have figured it all out on day one, right.
Lauren Brennan:Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the
Lauren Brennan:beauty of a new project, right? There's always possibility and
Lauren Brennan:you can always take it in a different direction if you need
Lauren Brennan:to.
Mia Hobbs:Yeah. Yeah.That's really helpful. I always ask
Mia Hobbs:about a knitting high and a knitting low. I don't know what
Mia Hobbs:your thoughts are about that. Yes. Yes.
Lauren Brennan:That's a fun question. Actually, I always
Lauren Brennan:think about one of my highs was really teaching my boys to knit
Lauren Brennan:when they were seven and 11. And I'll still occasionally many,
Lauren Brennan:many years later, find them knitting unprompted, which is
Lauren Brennan:really, it's I hope that they think back on their, you know,
Lauren Brennan:their, their mom being this very passionate knitter. And, you
Lauren Brennan:know, I'm sharing it with them. And I hope that at some point in
Lauren Brennan:their life, they can turn to it as a wellness tool. I really
Lauren Brennan:enjoy teaching other people to knit. And, you know, Project
Lauren Brennan:Knitwell, that's our main mission, our mission really is
Lauren Brennan:to figure out more outlets to give people the opportunity to
Lauren Brennan:try out knitting and to learn with quality materials and
Lauren Brennan:quality instruction that's really proven over the test of
Lauren Brennan:time that we're using what we think is the best method to
Lauren Brennan:teach new folks, I have a, prior to the pandemic I was, I had a
Lauren Brennan:group of neighbours and friends that would come over to knit at
Lauren Brennan:my house every other week. And it was such a great way to feel
Lauren Brennan:connected to each other. And we would do knit alongs Have you
Lauren Brennan:ever done a knit along where you knit the same pattern,
Mia Hobbs:I've done one with my mum and my sister actually,
Mia Hobbs:where we couldn't all be together. And I gave them a kind
Mia Hobbs:of I think it was supposed to be a sock set. You know, where you
Mia Hobbs:get a small skein of contrasting colour for the heels and the
Mia Hobbs:toes. But actually, we made cowls. So the idea was to own it
Mia Hobbs:the same
Lauren Brennan:the same. Yeah. I love that.
Mia Hobbs:Because they're more practical for walking dogs
Mia Hobbs:because the dogs not going to grab hold the end of the scarf
Lauren Brennan:true that's very true.
Mia Hobbs:Yeah, so I think that's probably the only one
Mia Hobbs:I've done. And that was one we just I just made it up
Lauren Brennan:up. Yes. A personal Yeah. Well, sometimes
Lauren Brennan:that's the best because then you have complete control. One of
Lauren Brennan:the knit alongs that I did with some friends of mine was it was
Lauren Brennan:a mystery knit along. Joji Locatelli the Starting Point,
Lauren Brennan:which is this gigantic,
Mia Hobbs:yeah, that's what I knit when I left the NHS you
Mia Hobbs:actually, it was quite poignant that it was kind of two halves,
Mia Hobbs:which I saw was like the two halves of my career joining in
Mia Hobbs:the centre
Lauren Brennan:coming together. Oh, I love that. It's so
Lauren Brennan:symbolic, right. So yeah, this is my insanely large starting
Lauren Brennan:point, right?
Mia Hobbs:It's beautiful
Lauren Brennan:it just kept going and going, right? Yeah,
Lauren Brennan:Wasn't it fun? Did you do it as a mystery? Like you did it right
Lauren Brennan:along with the pattern?
Mia Hobbs:No, I didn't. And I did it late after everyone else
Mia Hobbs:had done it. So I seen all of the clues. It wasn't a mystery,
Mia Hobbs:but actually, it's strangely in very similar colours to yours.
Lauren Brennan:Oh, no kidding. Oh, that's fun. Oh, I'd love to
Lauren Brennan:see. Yeah, the funnest. the really fun part about this is we
Lauren Brennan:had no idea what shape it would be. We had no idea how the
Lauren Brennan:mystery would come together. And when when she said okay, now
Lauren Brennan:start over and do another piece on the other side. We all shook
Lauren Brennan:our heads like oh, no, this can't be right. Yeah. It was
Lauren Brennan:really fun to have it unfold. Oh my goodness.
Mia Hobbs:That's mine.
Lauren Brennan:We have a matching set of starting points.
Lauren Brennan:That's interesting.
Mia Hobbs:So it's kind of just to describe for people listening
Mia Hobbs:to the podcast who obviously can't see that. I guess mine is
Mia Hobbs:in shades of white and almost black and then shades of grey
Mia Hobbs:with a purple and yours Yeah, I think is quite similar
Lauren Brennan:it's dark blue which kind of matches your black
Lauren Brennan:Yes. Some shades of kind of a a tealy purpley blue. So yeah, oh
Lauren Brennan:my goodness. Well, I just loved this pattern, everything about
Lauren Brennan:it. And my friends knitted knit it with me. So we all had
Lauren Brennan:different versions. And the gauge I mean, some people's are
Lauren Brennan:even larger than mine I'm I you know, tight knitters, loose
Lauren Brennan:knitters everywhere in between and, and we've really I really
Lauren Brennan:enjoy the opportunity to come together with folks and knits.
Lauren Brennan:I've been to Rhinebeck, which was a really high in my
Lauren Brennan:knitting. Career, you know, in terms of being a knitter on the
Lauren Brennan:east coast in the United States going to Rhinebeck, which is New
Lauren Brennan:York sheep and wool festival is kind of the pinnacle of you're
Lauren Brennan:surrounded by people who are true believers in the power of
Lauren Brennan:knitting. Really. It's like a pilgrimage. Yeah, well, yeah.
Mia Hobbs:And how about a knitting low?
Lauren Brennan:Oh, gosh, that's a tough question, because I do
Lauren Brennan:get so many highs from knitting. But I suppose I suppose there
Lauren Brennan:have been many times that I've had gauge issues with just a
Lauren Brennan:beautiful yarn that I was very excited about that just didn't
Lauren Brennan:knit up the way I hoped it would, it could get saggy or
Lauren Brennan:just kind of have a drape that wasn't really that appealing.
Lauren Brennan:But I think sometimes, you know, even when it doesn't come out,
Lauren Brennan:as you expect, you can always reknit things, that's the beauty
Lauren Brennan:of knitting, you can always pull it out again. And you can find a
Lauren Brennan:greater reward in frogging it and then trying over and that's
Lauren Brennan:part of the, you know, and sometimes the biggest obstacles
Lauren Brennan:in knitting that I that I think about, I think I actually got a
Lauren Brennan:really strong dopamine kick from it, you know, I was really gonna
Lauren Brennan:overcome it and, and move forward to a higher reward. And
Lauren Brennan:I think that whether you're a beginner knitter or an advanced
Lauren Brennan:knitter, it's really easy to feel that sense of
Lauren Brennan:accomplishment and, and I like to think of it as an opportunity
Lauren Brennan:to, to face a challenge that isn't, you know, it isn't life
Lauren Brennan:threatening, nothing bad is going to happen, but it gives
Lauren Brennan:you a chance to feel like you were able to, to try something
Lauren Brennan:that may have been challenging and overcome it. Yeah,
Mia Hobbs:I talked about that the kind of the idea of making
Mia Hobbs:safe mistakes, like, yeah, you know, we struggle with doing
Mia Hobbs:things that might go wrong, I suppose. Generally, that can
Mia Hobbs:feel difficult, but I think it is, like you said, it's a way of
Mia Hobbs:doing something where you try something new, and probably
Mia Hobbs:there will be things that go wrong, but you can, unless you
Mia Hobbs:get the scissors out, I always say, which was why the steek is
Mia Hobbs:so challenging, you can unravel it. So it is a fairly safe way
Mia Hobbs:of making mistakes, and practising tolerating that, and
Mia Hobbs:overcoming that I suppse.
Lauren Brennan:Right? Right. And I hope that I hope that my
Lauren Brennan:children, or even my friends see that when we overcome things
Lauren Brennan:together like that, they you know, that they see that that
Lauren Brennan:sense of safe, you know, safe mistakes really are powerful to
Lauren Brennan:give you a sense of resilience. And Project Knitwell really
Lauren Brennan:wants to provide folks that are facing that stressful situation,
Lauren Brennan:a sense of hope, a sense that they are resilient, that they
Lauren Brennan:are fundamentally human. And they're, they're striving
Lauren Brennan:towards something that could be as simple as loops on a needle,
Lauren Brennan:right. But it doesn't have to be complicated and keeping things
Lauren Brennan:at the fundamental, simple level of, you know, those individual
Lauren Brennan:stitches that all come together into something really beautiful,
Lauren Brennan:is pretty powerful. And I I'm excited that when whenever
Lauren Brennan:someone new comes to our online, we have an online, knit two
Lauren Brennan:together community group, and when they come with a new
Lauren Brennan:project to share, you know, that sense of pride that they have,
Lauren Brennan:and showing it off and sharing it with someone that they've
Lauren Brennan:just met on the internet, or they've just met in a hospital
Lauren Brennan:waiting room, or any number of community settings that we've
Lauren Brennan:been able to interact with folks, I think it's a great
Lauren Brennan:equaliser and an opportunity for people to just focus on the
Lauren Brennan:texture of the yarn, the colour of the yarn. And the the beauty
Lauren Brennan:of that is so simple.
Mia Hobbs:And I guess you know, maybe as adults, we don't get so
Mia Hobbs:many opportunities to do like, show and tell is something I've
Mia Hobbs:done or made. And I suppose kids are probably better at that
Mia Hobbs:because we encourage it in them and give them opportunities to
Mia Hobbs:do it. But guess it's not something that necessarily lands
Mia Hobbs:on your lap as an adult.
Lauren Brennan:Yeah, I think we all need show and tell. Exactly.
Lauren Brennan:Exactly.
Mia Hobbs:Yeah. So I generally end the interview Lauren with
Mia Hobbs:the question about what's the greatest gift knitting has given
Mia Hobbs:you for the rest of your life?
Lauren Brennan:Oh, goodness, oh my goodness. Well, that the
Lauren Brennan:greatest gift I think is really in the lesson of finding Finding
Lauren Brennan:something that grounds you, that gives you some just a sense of
Lauren Brennan:overall calm and well being. And if it's knitting, I hope that I
Lauren Brennan:hope that you can share that passion with me. But if it's
Lauren Brennan:something else, I, I just hope that everyone finds an outlet
Lauren Brennan:that is as as powerfully rewarding for them as knitting
Lauren Brennan:is for me.
Mia Hobbs:Oh, that's great. Thank you very much. It's been
Mia Hobbs:such a pleasure to talk to you. I'm sure there'll be people who
Mia Hobbs:want to hear more about Project Knitwell, or about you, where
Mia Hobbs:can they find out about that?
Lauren Brennan:Absolutely. We have a website, Project
Lauren Brennan:Knitwell.org. And we're very excited to connect with folks.
Lauren Brennan:We have a newsletter that you can subscribe to, that keeps you
Lauren Brennan:in touch with all of our happenings and Knit Well in the
Lauren Brennan:cloud is very powerful for us now, because it helps us connect
Lauren Brennan:with folks all over the world. And we're especially excited to
Lauren Brennan:have more volunteers that teach virtually, and we are, we're
Lauren Brennan:here to train people in the methods that we've found to be
Lauren Brennan:tried and true. And we really feel that more boots on the
Lauren Brennan:ground in waiting rooms and hospitals and community groups,
Lauren Brennan:schools, teachers, we are so passionate about reaching out to
Lauren Brennan:as many communities so if you're a doctor or a nurse or a teacher
Lauren Brennan:that's facing burnout or feeling that compassion fatigue, we want
Lauren Brennan:to help you we want to connect you to knitting, we want to find
Lauren Brennan:a way to give you the opportunity to find out if
Lauren Brennan:knitting is right for you. So definitely reach out to connect
Lauren Brennan:with us. And I look forward to continuing to spread wellness
Lauren Brennan:and spread knitting as a wellness tool.
Mia Hobbs:Thank you so much for joining me, Lauren. It's been an
Mia Hobbs:absolute pleasure.
Lauren Brennan:Thank you so much.
Mia Hobbs:Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit
Mia Hobbs:podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic
Mia Hobbs:knitting you can follow me on Instagram at knitting is
Mia Hobbs:therapeutic. Or check out my website therapeutic
Mia Hobbs:knitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is released.
Mia Hobbs:Please subscribe on your podcast app