Lauren Brennan is the Managing Director of Project Knitwell, a charity dedicated to using knitting as a wellness tool and bringing this to people in hospital and community settings. Lauren speaks about her own journey in using to knitting to benefit her wellbeing as well as her involvement in project knitwell, bringing the joy and comfort of knitting to people in need.

View the transcript for this episode on the Captivate player

Find out more about Project knitwell at their website

Follow them on Instagram: @projectknitwell

Find out more about Dr Mia Hobbs and the Why I Knit Podcast and read the blog on the website

Follow Dr Mia Hobbs on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic

Yarn, books and patterns discussion in this episode:

TheHand by Frank R. Wilson: 9780679740476 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

Woolly wormhead azula hat azula — Woolly Wormhead

Dude sweater Ravelry: TheKnitter's Dude pattern by Andrea Rangel

Starting Point wrap Ravelry:Starting Point pattern by Joji Locatelli

Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knitt podcast. My name

is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's

passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental well

being. Each week I interview a different knitter about why they

knit and how it benefits their mental health. This week on the

podcast, I'm talking to Lauren Brennan, who is the managing

director of Project Knitwell, you can find links to Project

Knitwell, and any of the yarns and patterns that Lauren and I

discuss in the show notes. Hi, Lauren, welcome to the podcast.

Hi, thanks so much for having me. Mia, I

appreciate the opportunity to talk about knitting for

wellness.

Thank you for joining me. So I always start by asking

how your story with knitting began.

You know, I feel like my story isn't terribly

unique. I was taught to knit in the fourth grade by my

grandmother,

and how old is fourth grade for those of us who don't.

I was just just about less. Um just about nine.

Almost ten. Okay. Yeah, so pretty young. And I was very

good with my hands and my grandmother recognised that I

really enjoyed working with my hands. The unusual part of my

story is that the time that she taught me, she was going through

experimental treatment for an aggressive kidney cancer. And

she was really in a time of stress for her, I think it was

an opportunity for her to pass down a long standing tradition.

Many, many families have grandmothers and mothers who

knits but I think it was a wellness tool for her in that

moment. And she recognised that she could teach me that wellness

tool and really share a lifelong tool with me. I still have

actually, I keep it here on my desk, the original project on

the needles that we shared together. Yeah. And it's you

know, it has all these bits and bobbles and all of these little,

you know, little squirrely bits. But yeah, she was very patient

with me. And you can see where she worked with me at the

beginning and it gets wider and wider. Somehow I was

very often find that with people I've taught, I think

it's sometimes when you the yarn gets flipped over the back and

you turn the first stitch on the needle into two stitches, I

think,

right? There's no, yeah, the increases on the

edge are really, you know, I was I was letting it grow. And I

didn't even know that that was what I was up to. I always I

always tell people that I teach to knit that, every mistake is

actually a technique. And so really, you know, I was going

for a crescent. Right. I was, yeah.

Amazing. So amazing. You still have it. I think that

thats quite rare,

my mom found it in an old trunk not too long

ago. And I can't even believe that it's on the same needles

that my grandmother shared. And I should have it framed, you

know, I should frame it or something. But yeah, I like to

hold on to it every once in a while. And I put it up on my

bulletin board.

So Oh, that's amazing. Thank you for sharing

that. So that you've still got your first ever project that you

did with your grandma. Yeah. And did you keep knitting straight

away? Or was there a time where you didn't knit?

I did I knit for quite a while I did some finger

knitting. I did a lot of weaving looms, you know, tiny little

loom work. I, my walls in my childhood bedroom were covered

in little projects that I'd made. They still are covered in

some of them, actually, really, which my parents are, are good

at preserving our childhood memories. I think I'm saying but

I think that I had a long gap between probably, you know, late

middle school into college. And when I went to college, a friend

of mine was studying in Ireland, actually. And I went to visit

her and we were on a local bus. She was studying there. So we

were, you know, we were not quite tourists. But we met these

old women that were knitting. And they said here, here, take

this wool that here take this wool and knit with us. And they

were insistent that we knit and you know, I had not knit in

years, but I remembered the pattern and I remembered how to

knit just riding a bike. Yeah. And I was kind of amazed to that

that was possible that I could just pick it right back up.

Yeah. At the next bus stop. They literally almost dragged us to a

yarn shop and I bought a bunch of Irish wool. That was

beautiful. I still have it. And I I spent a lot of the rest of

the trip knitting, you know, basic garter stitch. That was

sort of my my flashback to knitting was not very advanced.

I never really had had much advanced knitting at that point.

But but those repetitive stitches, that's the value to

me.

Yeah, that's amazing, amazing story. And I'm sure they

probably have no idea how significant that was and what

you've ended up doing now?

Yes, I wish I could go back in a time machine

and talk to them again and find out what their story was. And

they were very interesting ladies that they were even

interested in talking to us was was a joy. Really? Yeah.

And that, you know, you already had you already knew

how to knit did they know that?

Yeah. Well, it was funny. I said, Oh, I used to

knit you know, so I had shared that, but it had been many, many

years. But I was always pretty pretty. My hands are really, I

think, engaged with a certain part of my brain. So I think I

was always pretty handy. And some, you know, I think knitting

is not for everyone, but some people are really driven by

handwork. And I think that that ignites a certain part of our

brains. And, you know, really, scientifically, it's proven to

be a really great tool for a lot of people to, to regulate their,

your hands, actually, there's a book by Frank Wilson, called The

Hand, and it talks about how your hand is connected to 60% of

your brain activity, which if you think about the the, the

activity that goes on in your brain, I mean, 60% is pretty

significant. So if you're able to ignite that much of your

brain with bilateral knitting movements, you're really able to

bring yourself out of pain responses, you're able to bring

yourself down and regulate all of the neurotransmitters that

are igniting in us every day, and some are good and some are

bad. So I'm excited that I, whenever I can teach someone to

knit when they're facing any sort of pressure, or stress or

or give them that tool ahead of that point, I think it's it's

such a benefit for the long term, you know, advances that go

on within our, within our mental health, and also just in the

And, obviously, now you're involved with Project net

neuroplasticity of our brain? Yeah.

Well, and that's something you're doing for a living. But I

wonder for you personally, when that link first dawned on you,

or when you first experienced that as something that knitting

was not just doing something with your hands, but it was

actually helping on a psychological level? Yeah.

That is a really great question. I was thinking

about the, the title of your, you know, the title of your

podcast is why why you knit? Yeah, why I knit. And I feel

like I knit because I have to which it may sound very extreme

or overstated,

not to me.

Not to you good. But I really believe that it

helps bring me back to a baseline. It provides just an

overall sense of calm and well being. I think it took me a

while to realise that these are proven benefits scientifically.

You know, I, I shake my head now thinking, of course, it lowers

my blood pressure, I can really feel that. Yeah. And it took me

a while to make the connection between the scientific evidence.

And what Project Knitwell tries to do is provide more outlets

for research, to give people more of a mindset that this is

actually a tool for well being and a tool for wellness and not

just a luxurious hobby, or, you know, an opportunity to unwind.

It's just really recentering and and rebalancing those chemicals

in your brain and giving you a sense of satisfaction. At the

same time. I think there are so many activities that can

rebalance our brain like meditation, and yoga and all of

these other activities that other people find as releases.

But I think that knitting has the added benefit of something a

presentable at the end, a gift that you can give someone or

something that you can have as a tangible piece. Sentimental

piece, too. I love to knit on trips. And it to me that is my

souvenir of the trip. Yeah, you know, it's a memory that I hold.

You know, I remember where I made each of the shawls that I

have, and I can I can keep track of the 17 sweaters I knit during

COVID

17 That's impressive.

I think of how absurd that is. but you know, I

really genuinely was knitting because I had to It kept me

going and, and when there was no other, no other sense of

satisfaction, I always had my knitting and that day, you know,

every day that I could cast something off was the day where

I felt particularly satisfied. So yeah.

And how about once you've finished the thing? It

sounds like you do keep that kind of relationship with the

object?

Yes, I agree. I think that even when you give

something as a gift, or maybe especially as you give something

as a gift, it becomes a really sentimental piece of you. And

it's funny, I think I, you know, I, I don't always give knitted

gifts to other knitters. So sometimes people don't quite get

how much has gone into the item you're sharing with them. And

that can be challenging. Sometimes you want to make sure

that you're giving the gift to someone that that gets it, you

know, they they understand the, the effort and the you know, the

feeling that went into that is, I think is important. But I

yeah, I keep I keep all of my knits, you feel like you have

quite a few items that have a sentimental attachment to or

Yeah, definitely. And I think in a in a similar way to

you actually. And I think I have grown into my the way in which

I've used knitting deliberately to help me and I think I did it

because, you know, I started doing it, my mum suggested it as

a way of managing kind of exam stress, when I started my

training, because she'd met someone else who'd learned to

Brickley. And she thought I needed to do something that was

unrelated to psychology. So she said, Why don't you learn to

knit or relearn I've learned as a kid, and it kind of took off

from there, really, but it has taken me a while to really think

about the many ways that it has helped me. And I think now I

deliberately choose projects for significant moments or

transitions, like when I left working in the NHS, the National

Health Service here, that was a big thing in terms of my career.

And I felt like I needed a big project to take me through that

transition. So I started a particular shawl that I'd been

kind of planning to knit and that was a project. But now I

still have it and associated with that transition in my life

That's so wonderful. Yes, yes, I love that

you use the word deliberate, because I do think it can be

really a something that you think about. And I think

knitters really are deliberate in a lot of what we do. And I

think that that's a good, that's a really good word to describe

kind of the practical approach to a new project and, and

thinking of it as something that's deliberately improving

your wellness and, you know, helping you and driving you

towards a sense of accomplishment that you wouldn't

necessarily have in other things. And, and also, like you

mentioned, it can be a distraction, you know, it can be

a way to get to pull yourself out of something that may be all

consuming and it might be better to be more balanced about it.

It'd be really helpful to hear about Project

Knitwell, and how that started and about your involvement.

Absolutely. So project net well has been a

formal nonprofit since 2010. So we're we just celebrated our

11th birthday, which is long standing. Yes, thank you. We're

very excited to provide knitting as a wellness tool in hospital

settings and community settings. Throughout our this region. We

have also expanded to providing virtual knitting instruction

through Knitwell in the cloud, which we're very excited to have

more touch points and more opportunity for people to feel

connected to knitting. We have found that we've taught over

6000 knitters, new knitters have been born. Yeah, which I think

is really powerful. And we're really reaching them primarily

at the point where they are most stressed. So we work with

patients, we work with their caregivers, people that are

primarily waiting, and they may need something that pulls them

out of their patient status, right. So everything they deal

with in the day has to do with their illness. And if we can

bring in knitting as a distraction or as something that

can provide them a sense of calm, to soothe them and comfort

them in that moment. That's really our ultimate goal. We

have our mission is knitting with a purpose for comfort,

wellness and community. And I think of comfort as that point

of stress. So we come in and we swoop in when they're actually

in the hospital receiving treatment for cancer, and we're

providing it out that point as a comfort, but wellness. I think

of that as a preventative measure so we're trying to reach

people before For they hit a point of stress, so that they

can build their parachute, if you will, they can have knitting

as part of their mental health toolkits, that so when they do

have a crisis moment, they can turn to knitting to stabilise

that and give them an opportunity to release that

tension. And then community of course, is really the top of our

of our house, that's the roof above all of it. And really

community is what drives a lot of us to continue to knit. And

building that sense of you think about the future and how

knitting can provide a sense of well being among senior citizens

that come together and knitting circles young people too not not

just everyone that comes together and knits provides a

really strong sense of community, which I think is a

really wonderful piece of the pie.

So most of the people you're working with, are they

new to knitting or some of the people who have have knitted

previously,

we work with both, I would say primarily,

we're teaching new knitters, there are quite a few people

that will say, Oh, I, I learned from my grandmother when I was

young. Yeah, but I haven't knit in a really long time. So

sometimes we're catching them back up to speed. But I would

say that the people that find it most rewarding are those that

may have never tried it. And they think, Oh, I'm not sure if

I'll be good at this, or I'm not that great with my hands. But if

they can overcome that, they find that we've found that they

find the most satisfaction from it. In the end that perseverance

is really powerful. You know, you release so much dopamine

when you feel that rush of Oh, I really was able to overcome

something that I wasn't certain I would be good at that. I think

a lot of children I know you work with a lot of children, do

you feel that they have that sense of accomplishment? Like

they weren't sure if they could do it yet, but they were able to

yeah I really do and really feeling kind of proud of

themselves when they've achieved something new and showing it off

to other people. And so yeah, really strong sense of pride. I

suppose it's something I still feel like I get out of knitting

that when I do a new like recently, I've been knitting a

hat, which has got very unusual construction. I don't know if

you know Woolly Wormhead who designs these amazing hats that

are knitted sideways.

How fun. Wow, I have one right here. It's one of

my favourites because it covers my ears. Like at the this is the

yes, she has she has the break in back it's really wonderful.

Oh, that's beautiful. And so I'm knitting the Azula I

think it is. So from the elemental collection, but it's a

provisional cast on, which is not something I've tried many

times and certainly not ever successfully I'm going to say

with a crochet hook. And I mastered that. And then it was a

different, very different looking pattern that I had to

learn how to read. And that involved a lot of going back

over the first few rows and trying to figure out where it

was I'd gone wrong with the short rows. And then I got it

and I figured out why. And I still got that boost of oh, I've

achieved something new. So even 15 years down the line of

knitting every day.

Yes, and that actually is the most the best

part about knitting, there's always more yeah, there's always

more to strive towards and to try out. And there's always

little quirky things that you may have forgotten that you

could go back to or, but I do feel like it's always expanding

and, and also the fundamental, just repetitive movements, even

regardless of the challenges are really calming and are able to

help people get back to baseline also

are you teaching people individually or in

groups?

We primarily teach one on one, we have found

that that connection is when we're most successful, and part

of it is it's challenging to follow along without some some

sort of personal connection. We have occasionally taught in a

larger group setting. We have groups of nurses, for instance,

that we can come together in a sort of a professional

development workshop to give them an opportunity to learn

what is knitting all about how would it you know, can they they

can give it a try in a group setting. And we'll bounce

through you know, we'll have two or three volunteers that can

bounce around the room and help out. But when we are faced with

folks that are in a stressful situation, part of the benefit

is really the conversation that you're having with them. And

it's not that you're approaching it as an art therapist, you're

not there for therapy. You're just They're to give them a

chance to feel like they can have a normal human conversation

that doesn't have anything to do with their illness or whatever

stress they're facing. We work with a group of Afghan refugees

who don't actually speak English yet, and they're learning

English, but the presence of us and being able to show them with

our hands, and both of our hands working in unison, just being

there together, and they come back with these glorious scarves

that are taller than they are, I have this great picture of one

of them standing with this enormous scarf that's almost as

tall as she is. And she was so proud to come back the week

after she learned to knit with this giant scarf that she had

been so productive with. And so she was immediately a brand new

knitter, yes. And we immediately gave her more yarn.

Wow. So she's really run with it. What's the kind of

feedback you get from some of your clients from Project

Knitwell

Well, yeah, that's a great question I, we've

really reached out to quite a few younger folks that we're

really trying to figure out ways to make them feel connected with

what really is truly not a grandmother's hobby anymore. I

mean, it's really ridiculous to think of it that way. And we

have so many young knitters at a school for children with

emotional challenges. We started running a summer camp there a

few years ago, and now we're there all year. And the group of

children that join us are really primarily teenagers are actually

almost all boys, which is interesting. And they do not

have any mindset for girl or boy crafts, or hobbies. And I think

that's just wonderful. But the feedback that we get from, from

those students, and also from the nursing students that we're

working with, at the collegiate level, they are telling us, you

know, I'm spending a lot less time on my phone, I'm not

scrolling, I can check out of all of that, video games, all of

that they can, instead use their hands in a niche and really find

another outlet that's really timeless. And I think giving

them other benefits that you know, beyond what they would get

if they were just reading or doing athletics or other things,

there's another layer to knitting that they wouldn't

necessarily get if they were always distracted on their

phones, and it's so great to just have a chance to, I find

that I put down my phone and check out very easily when I'm

in a in a knitting and knitting. You know, in a I'm in a

different mindset with when I knit, and it helps me really be

removed from the rest of the worries that might be out there

on, you know, lingering on the news channels on my phone and so

forth.

Yeah, so it feels like a more calming and

grounding activity for you. Absolutely. And I guess you also

have something to show for it, unlike an hour of scrolling on

Instagram, right?

Absolutely, yes. And you have something that

you've, you've been able to put out into the world, you know,

it's something that, you know, in the ancient world, I mean,

there were always people working with their hands. And And also,

if you think about worry, stones, and beads and things

that people will use there, they'll have a repetitive

movement with their fingers. And there are so many cultures that

have that type of tool. And I think knitting really is, is

that for so many people with that repetitive movements. I

think of it as meditation with my hands. So even though I'm not

really that great at just meditating, yeah, I do think I

get the same benefit or the same feeling that I would get

meditating when I'm knitting, a very repetitive pattern that I

don't have to necessarily pay attention to a chart or yeah,

there's two types of knitting, I always say I've always had, I

always have at least two projects, the repetitive,

easygoing, portable bag that I can just grab and go to the

swimming pool and knit while my kids are swimming. And then I've

got the more complicated colour work pattern that I'm really

focused in on and that's when I need the ultimate distraction.

And that's really what that that more complicated pattern can

somehow have a different set of rewards in the long run too

Yeah, I'm exactly the same with those two categories.

Are you Oh, good,

exactly the same because I think sometimes Yeah,

like you said, you want to do something meditative almost with

your hands. And I find, certainly for me, I focus better

on something if I was attending a zoom training or something

where I had to sit still and listen, I would want to knit and

that would help me focus. And that could be, you know,

knitting lots of stockinette in the round. And, you know, could

be a sock or a hat or something. And then I would like to have

something more complicated, like that hat pattern where I do need

to focus I need to count and look at a chart, but that's for,

I call it active relaxation, where my whole brain needs to be

busy doing something in order to allow it to turn off from other

stressful things.

Yeah, active relaxation. Right? Yes, that it?

That's a perfect way to describe it, I think. Yeah,

I used to go to salsa dancing lessons. And I noticed

that actually, there were loads of doctors at salsa. And I was

thinking, Why are they all here? And I think, I think I noticed

them talking about it. Like they couldn't possibly think about

what is a stressful and busy job. When they were trying to

think about doing something different with their hands and

their, you know, their arms and their hands and their feet and

listening to music all at the same time. They were just

mutually exclusive. And I suppose I feel like that about

complicated patterns that, you know, you just can't think about

other things at the same time.

Right? Absolutely. And I think it's

even true in more extreme cases, where when people are facing

pain in their body, you know, actual physical pain, it can

really help pull people back, it really pulls your brain in a

different direction. And so I think physically, and

scientifically, that has really been proven for so many folks

that you can really reorganise those synapses in your brain.

And I, I feel very strongly that there's so much research

potential to expand on and Project Knitwell really cares

about figuring out ways that we can study more of these benefits

that we all already feel. Yeah. And we already know, but how do

we prove it is the real question.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I would love to

hear about a significant project for you, Lauren, can you think

of a significant knitting project could be one of yours or

one from project knitwell,

that is a really great question. And I

immediately think of a sweater that I knit for my husband,

which was really It started really as a labour of love. It

was the dude sweater from The Big Lebowski, which is a movie

that it's Who is it? Jeff Bridges is in it. And it's a

it's kind of an edgy, quirky indie type movie, but it has a

very recognisable sweater that has a very unique pattern to it.

I think it might actually be a Native American pattern. So

it's, I can I could show it to you. But it was the first

project that I I knit in the round, okay. The knitters dude

is by Andrea Rangel, I believe. And she, it required a steek

which is cutting into your knitting. And this was one of

the largest projects I had ever done. And it had all of these

gigantic colour work floats, which are really challenging for

colour work knitters to catch. And I, when I cut into that

project, I thought, well, here we go, this is gonna sink this

ship is either gonna sink or sail. And I still think of that

moment

by that point, you've knitted the entire thing. And

then we're gonna cut right downt the centre of it

saying, yes, hours and hours of work, months,

months of work. And then I was getting my sharpest scissors out

and I was getting ready to cut down the centre. And luckily, I

did set up the camera, I had the mindset of I need to show

someone and I have really great knitting friends and I said, I'm

going to at least show someone that I'm, I'm cutting into this.

If the, if the ship sinks, at least I'll have a memory of the

ship sinking. So I, I have a time lapse of me cutting cutting

into it. And I had done every reinforcement, I did the crochet

reinforcement, I run the knitting, I'd run the sewing

machine up and down the line. So I was pretty confident that it

wouldn't sink completely. But it could have partially, you know,

there could be a partial failure but you know what, it was really

exhilarating when it worked out and you know, the, the collar

worked out I ended up making a lot of modifications to the

pattern because it didn't quite fit. There were more many

iterations I wanted to have it ready for Christmas and it was

too long and it didn't have a I had a really awkward collar. And

so I didn't have it ready for Christmas, but I think I had it

ready by the end of January I had. I also not only did I cut

down the middle, but I also chopped about six inches off the

bottom because it had become a more of a duster than a

cardigan. Men, or at least my husband wasn't as interested in

a duster length. Yeah. So it was an adventure. And it definitely

felt memorable to me. And I think that it was, it was also a

sense of accomplishment. And even though, you know, he

occasionally wears it, I probably it doesn't, it doesn't

fit quite right. It fits pretty well, there's some good pictures

of him in it. But I think that it's it was still well worth the

time spent and the rewarding feeling that I overcame a lot to

persevere. I you know, it could still be sitting in a bag

somewhere, but it's wearable. So

it sounds like it's almost like the knitters version

of skydiving or something.

Absolutely

adrenaline fueled.

yes it was I adrenaline is right. I really

did feel that way. And you know, there was a certain high when it

didn't completely unravel.

Yeah, sure. A bit of magic. I'm interested in. And

you mentioned a lot of kind of, I don't want to call them

failures, but a lot of challenges along the way in that

project. And I think that's something many knitters will

relate to the idea of, you know, as I say, my knitting group, you

know, none of us get to be an experienced knitter without

having to unravel very many things. Possibly even most

things get unravelled at some point to some extent. I'm

interested in, I don't know how that feels for you what musings

you have on that in terms of whether you've learned anything

from it for the rest of your life, or

right? Well, I'm a big believer in, there's a

quote that says like, the person who doesn't make mistakes is

unlikely to make anything. I think Paul Arden said that,

okay, I think that knitting is really all about making

mistakes, every mistake is actually a technique. And when I

teach someone to knit, I'm usually explaining that to them

right off the back. And I'm saying that right off the bat

that, you know, every time you pull the yarn to the front by

accident, that's actually a technique that you'll use later

on. And that's a relief in a way that they can think of they can

think of everything as if you make a mistake in a pattern, you

know, if you make that mistake repeatedly, it's just a new

technique, right?

Or a new pattern

or a new pattern. Yeah, so. So I think

that, you know, my feeling on how things go when you're

knitting something, and, you know, sometimes projects need to

rest also, you know, if something is aggravating,

there's no reason to, there's no reason to give it that

aggravation in that moment. You know, don't give it don't give

it that, you know, don't give it that level of attention in that

moment. And just step back from it. I'm, I'm very good at

letting my my WIPS or my work in progress. Yes, I'm good at

letting them sit. And they don't taunt me the way they might

taunt other people. Sometimes I, I find that some knitters with

works in progress. They get really upset, like, Oh, I

haven't finished that yet. I need to finish it, I need to get

back to that. And I really think that it's okay to let them rest.

Yeah. And I don't want them to taunt me or to make me feel like

I'm not accomplishing something by letting it sit for a little

while. And yeah, and sometimes it's just nice to come back to

it later on. And I think that goes for a lot of things in our

mental health that you have to step back from them in order to

gain a little bit of perspective on maybe you look, look more in

depth on what other people did to make that pattern work for

them. And I find that going and looking at other people's

projects on Ravelry is helpful. You know, I could say, oh, well,

they it looks like they have the same problem with the collar

that I was having. How did they overcome it? Or what did they do

differently? Or are looking at other cardigans, like when I was

working on the dude, I looked for other ideas of what to do

about the collar that may be less awkward. And I really just

invented my own collar that's totally different than the shawl

collar that's called for in the pattern, which really wasn't

working. So you know, there's ways to kind of get around and

then that perseverance and it can be pretty powerful too.

Do you think it spills over into other areas of

your life? Do you think you've taken those things you've

learned from knitting and helped you to be more I don't know,

mindful of the process or able to tolerate mistakes in inverted

commas in other areas.

Yeah, I think so. I think I definitely feel

like I'm a more patient person because of knitting. And I've

always, I am very perseverent. I don't, I don't usually give up

very easily. So I think that that's a piece that I take with

me into other parts of my life. And I think it's a good skill to

have or a good mindset to have that you can always keep trying.

Yeah, I think it's made me more appreciative of the

process. I think of other things like, you know, starting a

business after I left the National Health Service, not

having to have figured it all out and got to the end result

immediately. But to be able to think, no, I'm on a journey

towards that. That might be hopefully where I'm headed, but

it's alright to not have figured it all out on day one, right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the

beauty of a new project, right? There's always possibility and

you can always take it in a different direction if you need

to.

Yeah. Yeah.That's really helpful. I always ask

about a knitting high and a knitting low. I don't know what

your thoughts are about that. Yes. Yes.

That's a fun question. Actually, I always

think about one of my highs was really teaching my boys to knit

when they were seven and 11. And I'll still occasionally many,

many years later, find them knitting unprompted, which is

really, it's I hope that they think back on their, you know,

their, their mom being this very passionate knitter. And, you

know, I'm sharing it with them. And I hope that at some point in

their life, they can turn to it as a wellness tool. I really

enjoy teaching other people to knit. And, you know, Project

Knitwell, that's our main mission, our mission really is

to figure out more outlets to give people the opportunity to

try out knitting and to learn with quality materials and

quality instruction that's really proven over the test of

time that we're using what we think is the best method to

teach new folks, I have a, prior to the pandemic I was, I had a

group of neighbours and friends that would come over to knit at

my house every other week. And it was such a great way to feel

connected to each other. And we would do knit alongs Have you

ever done a knit along where you knit the same pattern,

I've done one with my mum and my sister actually,

where we couldn't all be together. And I gave them a kind

of I think it was supposed to be a sock set. You know, where you

get a small skein of contrasting colour for the heels and the

toes. But actually, we made cowls. So the idea was to own it

the same

the same. Yeah. I love that.

Because they're more practical for walking dogs

because the dogs not going to grab hold the end of the scarf

true that's very true.

Yeah, so I think that's probably the only one

I've done. And that was one we just I just made it up

up. Yes. A personal Yeah. Well, sometimes

that's the best because then you have complete control. One of

the knit alongs that I did with some friends of mine was it was

a mystery knit along. Joji Locatelli the Starting Point,

which is this gigantic,

yeah, that's what I knit when I left the NHS you

actually, it was quite poignant that it was kind of two halves,

which I saw was like the two halves of my career joining in

the centre

coming together. Oh, I love that. It's so

symbolic, right. So yeah, this is my insanely large starting

point, right?

It's beautiful

it just kept going and going, right? Yeah,

Wasn't it fun? Did you do it as a mystery? Like you did it right

along with the pattern?

No, I didn't. And I did it late after everyone else

had done it. So I seen all of the clues. It wasn't a mystery,

but actually, it's strangely in very similar colours to yours.

Oh, no kidding. Oh, that's fun. Oh, I'd love to

see. Yeah, the funnest. the really fun part about this is we

had no idea what shape it would be. We had no idea how the

mystery would come together. And when when she said okay, now

start over and do another piece on the other side. We all shook

our heads like oh, no, this can't be right. Yeah. It was

really fun to have it unfold. Oh my goodness.

That's mine.

We have a matching set of starting points.

That's interesting.

So it's kind of just to describe for people listening

to the podcast who obviously can't see that. I guess mine is

in shades of white and almost black and then shades of grey

with a purple and yours Yeah, I think is quite similar

it's dark blue which kind of matches your black

Yes. Some shades of kind of a a tealy purpley blue. So yeah, oh

my goodness. Well, I just loved this pattern, everything about

it. And my friends knitted knit it with me. So we all had

different versions. And the gauge I mean, some people's are

even larger than mine I'm I you know, tight knitters, loose

knitters everywhere in between and, and we've really I really

enjoy the opportunity to come together with folks and knits.

I've been to Rhinebeck, which was a really high in my

knitting. Career, you know, in terms of being a knitter on the

east coast in the United States going to Rhinebeck, which is New

York sheep and wool festival is kind of the pinnacle of you're

surrounded by people who are true believers in the power of

knitting. Really. It's like a pilgrimage. Yeah, well, yeah.

And how about a knitting low?

Oh, gosh, that's a tough question, because I do

get so many highs from knitting. But I suppose I suppose there

have been many times that I've had gauge issues with just a

beautiful yarn that I was very excited about that just didn't

knit up the way I hoped it would, it could get saggy or

just kind of have a drape that wasn't really that appealing.

But I think sometimes, you know, even when it doesn't come out,

as you expect, you can always reknit things, that's the beauty

of knitting, you can always pull it out again. And you can find a

greater reward in frogging it and then trying over and that's

part of the, you know, and sometimes the biggest obstacles

in knitting that I that I think about, I think I actually got a

really strong dopamine kick from it, you know, I was really gonna

overcome it and, and move forward to a higher reward. And

I think that whether you're a beginner knitter or an advanced

knitter, it's really easy to feel that sense of

accomplishment and, and I like to think of it as an opportunity

to, to face a challenge that isn't, you know, it isn't life

threatening, nothing bad is going to happen, but it gives

you a chance to feel like you were able to, to try something

that may have been challenging and overcome it. Yeah,

I talked about that the kind of the idea of making

safe mistakes, like, yeah, you know, we struggle with doing

things that might go wrong, I suppose. Generally, that can

feel difficult, but I think it is, like you said, it's a way of

doing something where you try something new, and probably

there will be things that go wrong, but you can, unless you

get the scissors out, I always say, which was why the steek is

so challenging, you can unravel it. So it is a fairly safe way

of making mistakes, and practising tolerating that, and

overcoming that I suppse.

Right? Right. And I hope that I hope that my

children, or even my friends see that when we overcome things

together like that, they you know, that they see that that

sense of safe, you know, safe mistakes really are powerful to

give you a sense of resilience. And Project Knitwell really

wants to provide folks that are facing that stressful situation,

a sense of hope, a sense that they are resilient, that they

are fundamentally human. And they're, they're striving

towards something that could be as simple as loops on a needle,

right. But it doesn't have to be complicated and keeping things

at the fundamental, simple level of, you know, those individual

stitches that all come together into something really beautiful,

is pretty powerful. And I I'm excited that when whenever

someone new comes to our online, we have an online, knit two

together community group, and when they come with a new

project to share, you know, that sense of pride that they have,

and showing it off and sharing it with someone that they've

just met on the internet, or they've just met in a hospital

waiting room, or any number of community settings that we've

been able to interact with folks, I think it's a great

equaliser and an opportunity for people to just focus on the

texture of the yarn, the colour of the yarn. And the the beauty

of that is so simple.

And I guess you know, maybe as adults, we don't get so

many opportunities to do like, show and tell is something I've

done or made. And I suppose kids are probably better at that

because we encourage it in them and give them opportunities to

do it. But guess it's not something that necessarily lands

on your lap as an adult.

Yeah, I think we all need show and tell. Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah. So I generally end the interview Lauren with

the question about what's the greatest gift knitting has given

you for the rest of your life?

Oh, goodness, oh my goodness. Well, that the

greatest gift I think is really in the lesson of finding Finding

something that grounds you, that gives you some just a sense of

overall calm and well being. And if it's knitting, I hope that I

hope that you can share that passion with me. But if it's

something else, I, I just hope that everyone finds an outlet

that is as as powerfully rewarding for them as knitting

is for me.

Oh, that's great. Thank you very much. It's been

such a pleasure to talk to you. I'm sure there'll be people who

want to hear more about Project Knitwell, or about you, where

can they find out about that?

Absolutely. We have a website, Project

Knitwell.org. And we're very excited to connect with folks.

We have a newsletter that you can subscribe to, that keeps you

in touch with all of our happenings and Knit Well in the

cloud is very powerful for us now, because it helps us connect

with folks all over the world. And we're especially excited to

have more volunteers that teach virtually, and we are, we're

here to train people in the methods that we've found to be

tried and true. And we really feel that more boots on the

ground in waiting rooms and hospitals and community groups,

schools, teachers, we are so passionate about reaching out to

as many communities so if you're a doctor or a nurse or a teacher

that's facing burnout or feeling that compassion fatigue, we want

to help you we want to connect you to knitting, we want to find

a way to give you the opportunity to find out if

knitting is right for you. So definitely reach out to connect

with us. And I look forward to continuing to spread wellness

and spread knitting as a wellness tool.

Thank you so much for joining me, Lauren. It's been an

absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit

podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic

knitting you can follow me on Instagram at knitting is

therapeutic. Or check out my website therapeutic

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