Travis welcomes Jim Wilder to the show! Jim is a neurotheologian who specializes in helping us become fully human Christ-followers. Travis and Jim discuss neurotheology, how the brain works, and how God has wired the truth of who He is into our brains. It's one of the most fun and informative conversations and it's sure to deepen your relationship with God and others. This is truly a must-listen!

Listen to other episodes with Jim Wilder:

#108 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology)

And other episodes on neurotheology:

#109 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 1-Relational Reformation

#110 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 2-Relational Reformation

#120 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 1

#121 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 2

#140 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-Enemy Mode

#141 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-Enemy Mode

#142 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 1

#143 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 2

Learn more about Life Model Works.

Check out Jim's books.

Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.

Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Characteristic of God that's been passed off to us, as far as the brain is concerned, is it's relational. It looks for a connection with somebody else with the intention that we would share life with them.

And when we do it wrong, we're death giving to others. And when we do it right, we're life giving to others.

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host. And today we're having another one of our deep conversations.

For 1,000 years, the church has spent a lot of time and energy on knowing and articulating what we believe, and rightly so.

But as time has gone on, we in the Western church especially, have lost something dramatically important along the way, and that's the importance of relationship and how it actually shapes us to be human. Now, I know that sounds odd, but it's true. As we become more and more reliant upon our technology, we seem to be losing touch with our humanity.

Ironically, given the battles that many Christians have had with science, right now, it's brain science that is helping us recover something of vital importance.

Did you know this, for example, that the brain figures out how to be human by observing those we are in relationship with, those who are older and wiser than us? That's actually what brain science says, and it's actually proving something that the Bible has already said.

Today, I invite you to join me for the first part of our conversation with author, professor, and chief neurotheologian. Yes, you heard that right. Neurotheologian Dr. Jim Wilder.

We talk about how we learn to be human, the impact of the industrial revolution on how we understand who we are. Four ideas that ruin the church, the importance of the face and how the brain cannot actually see its own identity.

And all of it is with a view toward helping us understand how to become more like Jesus. This is one of the most fun, illuminating, and thought provoking episodes we have ever done. And I hope you are inspired just as much as we have been.

Happy listening.

Jim Wilder. Welcome to Apollos Watered.

Great to be with you, Travis.

Are you ready for the fast five?

Whoa. Never ready for anything too fast.

Okay, here we go. I know you live in the Rockies, but, Austin, you grew up in the Andes, so. The Andes or the Rockies?

The Andes are taller.

But is that why? Is that why you like them? Because they're Taller?

Well, yeah, there's more diversity there. I mean, you get all the way from dry deserts, the driest on the world, snowy mountains, to jungles. You know, it's got it all mixed in there.

But in terms of just a lovely place to live, I'm glad I picked the Rockies.

Did you ever think that, Hey, I why I picked the Rockies is because I grew up in the Indies?

Oh, yeah, there's no doubt about it at all. I was for a while living in sort of flatter land and I thought I gotta find someplace where there's mountains.

So that's why I wanted to go to the Rockies. And here I am. There you go.

So you've also spent a lot of.

Time doing cross cultural work. I mean, it's pretty clear in your books. But what is the funniest cross cultural experience you've ever had?

Well, I think it was the time I was in Sri Lanka and I'd been there for a while, hadn't seen a vegetable in a great long time. So he came out with this plate that I thought was green beans.

And so I just grabbed some of those green beans and just, you know, started eating them. First bite, I realized these are the hot peppers locally. And I'm in front of this big group.

You know, I'm not either going to spit this out because I got a mouthful of the hottest peppers that got there, or I am a swallowed whole and I decided to swallow it whole. For the next day and a half, I traced my digestive tract.

Oh, that is really good. That's really good. Okay, here's the third question. Let's do a little desert island.

All right, so if you were stranded on a desert island with one book outside of the Bible that you have to have for the rest of your life, what would it be and why?

Well, if you can take the trilogy of Lord of the Rings and make one book out of it, I think that's one I would. I would read. I mean, there's always something in there.

No one's ever figured out what he's talking about on many different levels and, you know, just be fascinated. You know, that whole different world that he, that Tolkien creates would. I think that would be the book I would be working on. Wow, that's.

That is a challenge though. And I think you're right. I don't know how many people really know what he was talking about. All right, here we go. Number four.

Because you travel so much, here's a question for you. If you were an airline, what would be your catchphrase? And why.

We'll bring you back down. Yeah. You know, you put. Put you in a big tin can and throw you across the sky real fast.

You know, that's the one thing I want to know, that they'll bring me back down. Bring you back down.

Oh, so I don't.

I mean, you might get a lot of customers that way.

I don't know.

But that's. That's a funny one. All right, here's the last question. If you were a store, what store would you be and why?

Oh, now you're really getting out of my area. You know, shopping is not my specialty, so I think I'd be bakery, because I've never been to a bakery and couldn't find something I liked.

I thought taking a tour of the world's bakeries and waterfalls would be a really nice kind of trip. So I'll be a bakery.

I'm sure there's probably some Facebook group about that. I'm sure there is waterfalls and bakeries, that somebody's gonna write a book based on that. So let's get to your story. I mean, you've written a lot.

You've helped a lot of people, but how. I'm not sure how many people really know who you are. Like, the Jim Wilder story. What is the. The Jim Wilder story?

Well, I guess the thing about it is I was curious and always been curious about how the mind and body work. I think possibly partly because I had a stroke when I was two years old, which is sort of unusual.

That was one of these really nasty tropical viruses that made me, you know, blow out a blood vessel. And.

And so this whole curiosity of how things work, and also just added to that that Jesus ended up with a physical body which he's going to use for all eternity. And so, you know, these things are meant to combine in some way. And, you know, how does that work together?

Because, you know, from as early as I remember, there's this fight going on between science and Christianity, you know, more or less. And, you know, it's something that should have harmonized.

And so my curiosity of how things work, you know, from taking apart everything I could as a kid, you know, trying to put it back together, to looking at plants and animals and ecosystems and humans and cultures and traveling from one culture to another, realizing, you know, the Christians in one culture look so different from the Christians in another culture, but they look more like their own culture than they do Christians elsewhere. It's like, how do people work? This is a very strange thing. So that fascination Keeps me going because every day I wake up curious about something.

You also, though, grew up in a cross cultural environment. I mean, were you born in the Andes or did you go there?

Spanish was my first language. Yeah.

Wow.

We were raised in a small little village up in the Andes. First telephone I think we got when we were fifth when we were 15. I was 15.

And so television wasn't around and, you know, we rode horses and stuff like that. So it's almost like growing up in a different century. Really. Yeah.

And among indigenous peoples groups and seeing quite a variety of different cultures. Yeah, it was a very fascinating place to grow up.

And on the other side, they were having a civil war where about a quarter of a million people were killed sort of Rwandan style. And so you got to see some of the, you know, ugly side of human nature as well. So very diverse.

Well, you mentioned that in the book too. You talk about that in Rare Leadership.

And I'm curious though, how did you go from being in the Andes with this other century where there's, there's strife, there's violence, you're on horses, you don't have a telephone to brain science. I mean, you go from kind of one extreme to the other. What led to that journey?

Part of it's a little hard to guess, but just my fascination with science. The thing I wanted most as a boy was a microscope, you know, because there's all these things swimming in the water.

You can't see, you don't want to drink, and just kind of this curiosity of what's going on inside.

And I originally wanted to be a medical doctor, and then I happened to witness somebody being healed in response to prayer from a psychological trauma. And I thought, ooh, how does that work? And so my interest moved over to psychology to try and see how the mind worked.

Um, because that, that was a whole new mechanism I'd never witnessed before. And it made me very fascinated then with how do we get to become the people God wants us to be?

Which, you know, from my own personal struggle, you know, I tried following all the rules and doing it right and, you know, never seemed to work for me at all. So I figured whatever the secret was to the church working the way we saw in the New Testament, I hadn't come across it yet.

And these, you know, these streams sort of mixed together. But all through school, the brain was the least of my interests. So I was like, yeah, I don't want to study. That's too technical.

But I kept getting assigned to these brain labs and you Know, VA hospital doing neurological assessment. And, and it was like, well, I'll never use this stuff until, you know, the day that God sort of put it all together. And it was like, whoa.

I had no idea I was getting prepared to do this.

How old were you when you came to the United States?

17.

So you jumped right from one culture right into the next. I mean, that's pretty extreme. Was that a massive cultural adjustment for you?

Yes, it was.

For one thing, I ended up in a very conservative Christian school in the south, moving from a community where I knew everybody to a school where it was mostly about following rules and stuff like that, that I didn't make any sense to me. And then the next year I went to a public school where, you know, they had rock and roll bands and all that sort of thing.

And, you know, this, this country seemed to be really peculiar to me, I'm sure how.

And you said you were 17. So what year are we talking about?

Which is already in a huge, huge tumultuous move. Cultural, Cultural shifts that would be able to walk into that and then to, to, to shape all that and then.

Vietnam War and all that stuff going on. Yeah.

So then that you're, you're going into studies, you're. You're being shaped into this brain science. But what was the, what was the impetus?

And maybe it's, it's several different incremental steps that really led from you, you're walking with God. And then you started to go, okay, how does brain science or how does the brain affect this? What, what really set that off?

I mean, you've given a bit of a hint of it, but what, what else was there?

And the ones that were recovering or sustaining their recovering in some way were part of church groups that sort of acted like an extended family and they were recovering. The ones that were just getting therapy were not sustaining their recovery very well.

And we wanted to know what the difference was and why some people seem to not make any recovery at all.

And it was at that point that we started trying to develop a model of how life worked that we called the life model and trying to keep it sort of not cross cultural, but we wanted something that could be made sense of for non Western cultures as much as for Western cultures.

So the best of Western science and the best of more relational cultures, and it Was at that point when we had sort of lined up, what does the Bible say about how people develop?

That we encountered the brain science, it says at all the stages, like between child and infant and parent and adult, those stages, there was a significant change in the brain that required us learning something about being human. And the people that weren't recovering had no one to teach them how to be human.

They had people to teach them theology, but no one to show them how to be human. And so all of a sudden, how the brain developed became very, very important to us. And I was working with Dallas Willard's wife, Jean Willard.

And so Dallas was a consultant.

So he's working on the spiritual formation side, and we're working on the emotional development side and realizing, you know, there's some element from each that has to be incorporated if you're going to end up maturing and starting to look and act like Jesus. And so that's where the fascination with. Well, we got to really figure this out showed up.

I want to park on something that you mentioned. Go back to something just for a second. You mentioned that people that were struggling had people to teach them theology, but not how to be human.

Explain that for a bit, because I think that's very, very true. We have a lot of theology, but not a lot of humanity. Explain that, if you would.

You don't mind?

Well, if you have noticed with children, when they're born, they don't have a very good idea of how to be human and how to interact with other people, how to use language, how to control their own bodies, you know, how to get along in groups, all those sorts of things. And the brain actually has to learn this sort of from scratch, you might say. It's pretty disorganized going in.

And the way the brain does it is by attaching to somebody and then say, I'm going to copy them. And so if they speak English, we learn English. If they speak Spanish, we learn Spanish. If they speak, you know, Hausa, they learn Hausa.

And they learn the habits and customs and everything. So basically, they're learning how to be human.

But the most important thing is learning to understand how a mind that's older, bigger and wiser than mine thinks so that I can become like that mind. That's basically what the brain is designed to do. Find a bigger, better, smarter model with more experience that can show me how do I live now?

And that's what we model after. Now, suppose your parents have severe psychological disorders. They were raised under severe trauma. So some of the people we had.

Had been in the Holocaust. Some of the people were. Their parents were criminally insane and locked up in the state prisons for the criminally insane.

And so they had copied some pretty disturbed experiences and minds of whatever was going on. So when we want to understand, how does God think when he loves me, he's taking care of me.

If everybody that I know has abused me, your brain says, I don't understand this language, I can't. Can't track it. And simply becoming Christian doesn't do that, you know, any better than it does with our other language.

For instance, I've yet to meet anyone who, because they became Christian, were suddenly fluent in Hebrew and Greek and could read the original texts. You know, they had to learn that.

So to learn the relational language that helps us get along with other people and understand what they're thinking, we also have to have experiences with relatively honest and available minds. And so that's what people were gaining from these church families, was that kind of practice.

But at the time, we couldn't tell you what the elements were. And the brain science said specifically here things that your brain must be able to do if you want to understand other minds.

And so we've been practicing teaching the people that don't have those skills how to do them or how to, you know, learn from somebody who does have the skills and then spread that to other people in the interests of helping them understand God in his mind.

Were those churches that you were interacting with, were those different ethnic churches, or were those just normal churches in that area that had already a better focus on these issues?

No, actually what we found out was that none of the people who are participating with church were part of a program that the church had initiated.

It turns out it was a spontaneously merging from a small group or an encounter of people that decided they wanted to do a little bit more of life together and support each other, you know, so these are spontaneous gatherings that sort of formed out of churches, never out of an intentional program by the church. Not that churches weren't running lots of intentional programs, but they weren't doing the thing we needed.

It was people who kind of looked at somebody go, hey, you need a family, you need somebody to be with on Thanksgiving, you need someplace to go camping on the weekend, come along with us, you know, and they were just basically sharing life together with other people and from a lot of different churches. And so is diverse, but not by intention.

We're going to take a quick break.

And hear a word from our sponsors, and we'll be right Back. The most important Bible translation is the one you read at Apollos Watered.

We use several different translations when we're studying, preaching or teaching. But again and again we keep coming back to the new living translation, the nlt. That's why we are excited to partner together.

We are united in the belief that understanding the Bible changes everything. Because if you can't understand it, then you won't read it.

We want you to know the God of the Bible to water your faith so that you will water your world. That's why we recommend getting an nlt. It's the Bible in the language we speak. It's not foreign or complicated, but up close and personal.

To save some Money, go to Tyndale.com, use the promo code NLTBIBLES. It will give you 15% off. There's an NLT for everyone from kids to adults. Devotional Bibles, study Bibles and so much more.

Get one today because understanding the Bible changes everything. And the NLT is the Bible you can understand.

A lot of churches do programs well, they do management well. You know, the whole trellis and the vine. The trellis is great, but there is not, I don't want to say there's not an awareness.

There's a greater awareness now on the self in a good way. I mean, of course you've got people talking about God centered and Jesus centered. We all want to be that.

But at Apollos Water, one of the things we talk about is we're to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength. That's the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it is to love our neighbor as ourself.

And that's the part that I think people miss is that because the culture has become so self absorbed that they don't have a proper balance.

I mean, we know that the devil takes one thing and goes to an extreme, but we do have to have a proper understanding of the self and the relational aspect of things in a body.

Because I think, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but a lot of times when people do choose churches, it's not always because of the theology, although that should be it, but it's about the community, about the identity, about feeling a part of that group. As you've done this research and you're helping people see that. I mean, why the greater focus on this now?

I mean, why have we had to come to a point where, where we need to understand this relational aspect that we've lost? Because being in church history Looking over time, I don't know how much those in the second and third century were talking in this same way.

And one of the things that I've struggled with is saying, okay, we have this language now. We're able to kind of parse our experience, our feelings, our emotions. Not to say that they didn't thin, but they didn't have the much language.

And it was more of a survival in a lot of ways. And a lot of those things were much more intuitive within the culture.

What has happened that has brought this desire to understand the self and our relationships? And if I'm saying something incorrect, please feel free to correct me that we need to talk about this now.

Well, I think the, the changes in our culture are going on at a rate at which they've never done before. Pardon me?

That's okay.

The changes in our culture are going down at a rate they haven't before. We have at least two major changes that I can point to. One is the Industrial Revolution.

Just thinking that when that hit, we no longer spent most of the time with our family. In multi generational context, we are now pretty much in work groups for large parts of the day.

So whereas previously, if I was, let's say, a stonemason, I would have spent most of my time with my family going to work together and we would have, you know, my grandfather was probably there, he'd probably been damaged by some accident at work, so he helped raise me when I was little.

And then I went work with my dad, who is, you know, whatever it is, and my children would even be expected to follow those kind of things that just made multi generational life make sense. And we didn't move anywhere very often.

So most of the people who I know, and that's one of the things that growing up in South America, most of the people there could tell you what the grandparents of any particular person in the village had been like.

So if your grandfather had been a wonderful person, your family was esteemed in the town, and if your grandfather had been a jerk, your family was looked at with some suspicion. That's the downside of it. But here we have the long term effects of being human. Very obvious from at least three or four generations.

Like whatever I'm doing is going to impact my grandchildren, at least probably my great grandchildren. That's completely disappeared from culture then. The second thing is that it takes practice to relate to other people.

Currently most people are spending about eight hours a day looking at a computer screen. Computer screens are not people. They don't interact, they don't track us the same way that other people will.

The consequences of our behaviors don't, you know, they're not too obvious.

And so we've, you know, you can be very rude with a computer screen and you don't, you know, if you walk away feeling like a hero, you can't do that in a village where your grandchildren are going to remember that you were a jerk. You know, so these kind of things that formed us into humans and helped us understand how our cultures and communities work.

And even the practice time we need to interact with other people has rapidly fallen apart. And then there's been the other philosophical changes and stuff like that. A lot of moving that didn't happen before.

So when you move someplace, you kind of leave your past behind you. And so the sense of, you know, we make a difference long term in the world is mostly disappeared from human interactions.

And now we just, it's a question of how well we do our job, becoming sort of the, the mainstay of identity and, But I think at the, in the west, both men and women are, you know, being reduced to how well they perform whatever their job function is. There's really quite a bit of difference from a relational world where we all learn these things.

So now we have to teach people what your grandfather couldn't teach you because you've never seen him or you've only vacationed with him twice when you went back to visit for a week.

Taking that then into consideration, it's kind of a rediscover of our humanity as we become much more individualistic, we become more separated, we become more technological and isolated.

You're calling it, and it seems that you're calling people back to a lot of the practices that the ancient, I don't say the ancient world, majority world cultures have managed to hold on to that have been taken for granted. But the Bible already talks about, and you're just giving the brain science behind why this occurs the way that it does. Is that correct?

Yeah, that's. We're basically saying here's the mechanism and you know, the, the worse you are at it, the, the better it is to know the way the brain works.

If you're, if your culture is all very good at, let's say, treating people with respect, you'll have Learned, you know, 100, a thousand ways to show respect for other people.

If you've been raised watching sitcoms where people are rude to each other and that's how you get the most laughs and you know, social media where, you know, a smart Comment is, gets more likes than, you know, than other things. Those kind of responses mean we need a lot of practice and it'd be better to learn it the way the brain learns it.

So the more efficient we become, because we've got now a small window to put it in, more efficient we become, the more important that detail becomes as part of our life and as far as the world's concerned.

I was speaking to the Christian universities of Asia and they were lamenting the fact that most of their students, even two decades ago, came knowing who their people were and what their identities were. Now most of these young people have created their own community online with people their parents and community have no idea they're interacting with.

And they're coming in quite confused about who are my people and what are we like and what do we do and what do we value.

The Korean youth in high school now are beginning to show signs that we would consider Alzheimer's, early signs of dementia from simply excessive screen exposure. Cultures that 20 years ago were very well established are disintegrating before our lives, our eyes around the world.

So the, the spread, the rapid spread of technology is just having massive impact. And so how are we going to put back in to people's minds? Here's how you understand your people to be the people of God.

And how do you teach other people how to look and act like Jesus?

One more comment I'll throw in is that, you know, when, when we pray or study the scripture, we have a, often have a spiritual revelation of a kind of life that we hadn't imagined. But your brain doesn't get good at it under duress unless you practice it with other people.

So in other words, I can know that God loves me, but as soon as you cut me off in traffic, I forget that God loves me unless I've practiced it with other people. Then I then that practice in my brain reminds me, oh yeah, yeah, even when people cut you off, God loves you. So we want to be loving in this context.

And so the in, you know, we have to have the truth on the one side, but we have to have the practice with people on the other side if we're going to do it under duress.

You mentioned someone cutting me off in traffic. My question is not does God love me? It's does God love them?

Now if you're God's face in traffic, people will be looking at you to see the answer.

That's true. That's true. Talk about that for a minute. You mentioned that in the other half of church you talk about seeing the necessity of the face.

And even in the Aaronic blessing, the Lord causes face to shine upon you. This idea the scripture talks about is the face. What is the significance both theologically and for us spiritually?

And understanding staining the face?

Yeah, that's really, to me, very, very fascinating. Because babies develop their identity looking at faces before they can ever understand words.

So by the time you have a vocabulary of 50 words, you've pretty much figured out how to interact with other human beings. You'll be about 18 months old. And so the brain is already designed to look at people's face and look who are the eyes looking at?

Me, who's glad to be with me, who shares my distress. And then I'll copy how they act. And all of that is registered on the face.

It's the primary means of communication, and it happens much faster than spoken communication. So you and I might. We're giving very long paragraphs in between her comments. Right.

But that would say we have one exchange that goes on every two or three minutes. But face to face communication runs back and forth six times per second.

Actually, since we're watching each other on video cameras, the fact that you've nodded right there, the audience can't see it or smiled just now, all these things communicate to me much faster than any words ever would. What's going on in your mind? And that's how we learn to be human and understand each other through the face.

You talk about the face you talk about, the life model works. You talk about rare leadership. I mean, these are all.

I find this particularly fascinating because as you said, or as we discussed in the pre show walkthrough, you've given words to stuff and experiences that many people have felt were missing in their world. Why is it then imperative that we understand the face? Why do we understand this life model that is there? Because people have gravitated toward it.

Their lives have been changed by it. What is it hitting that we're missing?

Well, what it's hitting is that we're essentially relational beings. The number one characteristic of God that's been passed off to us as far as the brain is concerned, is it's relational.

It looks for a connection with somebody else with the intention that we would share life with them. And when we do it wrong, we're death giving to others. And when we do it right, we're life giving to others.

And it's the difference between wisdom and folly. All of those things come back to, how am I relating to you? And.

And so the Part of the brain that creates our identity and character and responses is all the relational circuits in the brain. Then we have the linguistic and analytical part of the brain.

And the problem with that is it's way downstream of all the things that give us our character.

So by the time you put beliefs and understanding in there, truths which are very useful to have, by the way, but they don't really change our character very readily or very easily. It's a very, very slow process because traffic in the brain is one way, one directional traffic.

So if you put, on the other hand, well, let's put it this way, we're much more changed by who we love than what we believe. And so we're trying to move the Christianity back to where it was about a thousand years ago, which was primarily about our loves.

And so the love of God was more central than our understanding theologically of what he was like. Is he totally other, is he not? We don't know. We love God as we look for him in our daily lives and we practice that with others.

You mentioned that's you're moving it back to a thousand years ago. Yes, we've gone through the Industrial revolution and all these different things. What has the church then lost that we are trying to recover?

And do you see it being lost globally or is it something that's more of a Western phenomenon that has been a trick that, that has kind of jumped the seas, if you will, because of the influence of the Western church on the world, that it's starting to trickle into those other churches?

Well, I think there's quite a difference globally to begin with, although the same kind of problems we're having are spreading around the globe at an amazing rate. So that said, the, the biggest problems in the, in the Western church happened with four great ideas that sort of ruined the church.

So in the Enlightenment, we start with I think therefore I am. And so that raised thinking to the most important thing about humans. And what they meant by thinking was conscious, logical sort of thoughts.

And so the church thought, well, you know, if you want to think and you want logical thoughts, you want truth, we've got truth. So we then started making truth available to culture.

The only problem is that at that point truth began to eclipse love as the, as the, as our central message. We began arguing about truth. And then the volunteerists came along and he said, well, it doesn't matter what you believe if you can't make a choice.

So making the right choice became the sort of the central thing for the gospel. And so we made becoming A Christian choosing Jesus as your savior and the solution to all problems were making better choices.

You hear that all around the church in the west don't hear that much in the Eastern church or a lot of other cultures, but we, you know, and of course we want to make good choices, but that doesn't make as big a difference as who we love. And after that, then came the will to power. What's the point in having having a will and making choices if you don't have the power to have it?

And so Nietzsche and all the power people came along and the Nazis and other people that wanted to implement that power. So, and Christianity that to power as well, you know, we're going to have powerful experience. You know, you don't want a Christianity without power.

So we began looking for whatever was a powerful thing. And so the most common comment I hear about worship is, wow, that was powerful. Because that's, you know, the value we picked up.

And of course we don't want to have inert Christianity. Right. But power is not as important as who you love.

And then when the truth and the right choices and the power of the spirit, all of those were failing to do things like prevent divorces and the rest of that.

The church then went with culture in the direction of, well, if you're going to be loving, what that means is you're just going to be tolerant of everybody. And so at this junction in culture, we have people being tolerant and defining love as being just accepting of everybody else.

And, you know, because there's really nothing you can do about the problems of the world anyway. Now in the rest of the world, I think the operant condition is that they're surrounded by enemies of Christianity.

When you're surrounded by enemies of Christianity, the only thing that really digs in and helps you is if you can spontaneously love your enemies and that practice, well, you know, the truth, everyone could tell you, you should love your enemies. Knowing the truth hasn't made anyone that I know of love them.

Trying to make better choices, like I'm just going to love them, you know, doesn't do it.

I mean, all these things don't work as a formula because the only thing that makes us love our enemies is when we love God and we see his love for our enemies as well. We share that love and go like, well, yeah, God loved me when I needed help. How can I not love the people that he loves?

And so that shared love, which is part of non Western cultures in communities, very often it just makes sense to them. This is what we do.

And if you're living that life of loving the people that God loves even before they love you back, you know, while they're still enemies. And I think God was that way before, while we were still his enemies. He loved us.

That is the thing that transforms people, because they understand in the relational context already, you know, if you become. If I love you, you will become one of my people.

And especially if I remember growing up in South America, as soon as someone became a Christian, the they were part of the group trying to kill us, and they had to be taken into our group immediately and become one of our people if they were going to survive, because now their people were trying to kill them.

And so this sense that, you know, if we make this change of kingdoms, we must enter into relationship and share life together is really very prominent in the areas where Christianity is much more transforming than it is in the West.

There's so many different things to unpack there. You mentioned in the book about the difference between an accountability group and an identity group.

And when we've talked a lot about identity, we're talking about group identity in the west, of course, it's very individualistic. We're not a collective society. But we are all looking for our identity in something, and that's the flavor of the time.

Everyone's searching for identity. The rise of transgenderism, everyone is searching for that identity.

What, though, is the difference is where, if we bring it back just for this a moment, to the small group idea, what is the difference between an identity group? Why is that so important rather than like an accountability group?

Yeah, that's an excellent distinction. Let me throw out two little things first, and then I'll get back to that particular question.

The first is the brain is configured in such a way as it cannot see its own identity. So the foolish thing about Western culture is you just leave people to discover who they really are.

You're talking about using your brain to see something it can't see. The brain is configured in such a way that we see our identity by how other people look at us.

So the only question then is, are they seeing us correctly or are they seeing us distortedly? And, you know, the world of flesh and the devil are always that see a distorted view of who we are. But if that's all our brain knows, it becomes us.

And so that's the, you know, the first problem. We're going out looking for our identity using a method that's guaranteed not to work.

It'll just lead to confused people confused about all Everything about their identity. What's my gender, what's my sexuality? What's my. What are my people? What are my groups? What are my.

All those things, you know, you just left that all up to chance. Now then, at age 14, your brain goes through an apoptotic period, which means it's programmed cell death kills off a bunch of itself.

In order to make my individual identity less important than my group identity, which is where we have all the peer groups and everything that develop around age 14, suddenly my people and their survival becomes more important to your brain than your own. Now, it's very important to say, well, who are my people?

And so since the number one thing that comes out of an accountability group is, I'm keeping an eye on you and how well you're doing, the focus is on you and your choices and all that sort of thing. So I'm sort of patrolling your behavior. But an identity group says, we're going to teach you how to be the kind of people we want to be.

And it really works with the strongest system in the brain. From 14 on, it's like, who are my people and how do I become like them? What do they see in me that has yet to grow?

And that's the wonderful thing about who God's created us to be. Most of what he has in mind hasn't had a chance to grow because no one's seen it.

And so an identity group can say to you, once you were a thief, but now you can work with your hands and give something and have something to give to others, which Paul tells us congregations, you know, you came from all these things. That's what you were before. That's not who you really are intended to be. 100, 200 years from now, you won't be that.

We see that and will help you to grow. And so an identity group puts into words the things that you would have never imagined were true about you and which accountability can't do.

So that's why the.

The identity then becomes infinitely more important because accountability fails really, because it's more about rule keeping than anything else, rather than the understanding of who one is.

Mm.

And it runs on that things that if I could just make the right choices and make myself do it, it's, you know, which is not the thing that changes our character. You know, it's again, going back to our identities formed by the people we love. And that would be what an identity group would be.

People who love each other and bring out what Christ is trying to grow in one another.

I am fascinated by Jim's work.

He is helping us to understand scientifically how people work and in the process is actually validating a whole lot of what the Bible has been teaching us for thousands of years. I love his statement, the only thing that makes us love our enemies is when we love God and when we see his love for our enemies as well.

How can I not love the people that he loves? Oh, that's so true. And honestly, it's also hard, but it's true and we can do it.

And the reminder that he gave us as Westerners that this is a concept that many cultures around the world get that we simply don't. You know, at Apollos Watered, we believe in the depth of our being that the church in the west is undergoing a massive shift right now.

The question for all of us is this, Will it be a good one or a bad one? Dr.

Wilder's research in the area of neuroscience is one of the ways that that shift can be a definite good thing for the church because it calls us back to the heart of Jesus's message, which is this. Love each other. Just as I have loved you. You should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.

We are delighted and grateful for all of those who've already taken the plunge. You are our heroes. You are watering warriors for Jesus. Keep it up. For those who are ready to take the plunge, you need to take that next step.

Go to ApolloSweater.org and click the Support Us button in the upper right hand corner. There you will find many suggested amounts.

Pick the one that is right for you or simply write in the amount and surprise us if you've been impacted while listening to this episode. Screenshot it, text it to a friend, share it on your stories, or simply share it directly from your podcast platform.

Subscribing and leaving a review also opens up the nozzle of God's fire hose to water more people and be sure to check out our content on Instagram, Facebook and our website together. Let's open up that spigot of truth, Let the water flow and watch God make it grow.

Much thanks to the Apollos Water team of Kevin, Melissa Donovan, Eliana, Rebecca and Audrey Water your faith. Water your world.

World.

This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's watered. Stay watered, everybody.