"Your Matter Matters" is an innovative podcast series developed in collaboration with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Anazao Podcast Network, spearheaded by Pastors Will Rose and Thomas Johnston. This series aspires to facilitate meaningful conversations about the intersection of faith and science, providing an educational platform for small groups and churches to engage with contemporary scientific topics that resonate with the faithful community. During the interview, we delve into the motivation behind this initiative, exploring the necessity of addressing challenging questions within a theological context, particularly in a world increasingly dominated by scientific discourse. The discussion highlights the importance of fostering an environment where curiosity and inquiry are encouraged, allowing individuals to navigate the complexities of their beliefs alongside scientific understanding. As we embark on this journey, we invite our listeners to consider the profound implications of their own existence and the collective matters that bind us all together.

The Whole Church Podcast presents a profound dialogue exploring the intersection of faith and science through the lens of the upcoming podcast event, "Your Matter Matters!" Hosted by Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell, this episode features the insightful contributions of Pastors Will Rose and Thomas Johnston, who articulate the objectives and aspirations behind their collaborative initiative with the ELCA and the Anazao Podcast Network. This endeavor is designed to foster meaningful discussions within church communities about scientific topics that often provoke ambivalence and skepticism among congregants. The episode delves into the importance of creating a safe space for congregants to engage with these complex issues, encouraging them to navigate the sometimes turbulent waters of faith and scientific inquiry together. Through their project, the pastors aim to empower small groups and individuals to confront and reconcile seemingly conflicting narratives, ultimately affirming that faith and science need not be adversaries, but rather partners in the pursuit of truth.

Listeners are invited to consider how their faith communities can address contemporary scientific challenges, from climate change to advancements in technology, and how such discussions can enrich the spiritual lives of congregants. The episode emphasizes the necessity of dialogue, understanding, and mutual respect among differing perspectives, reinforcing the core message that every individual's matter is significant and deserves recognition. In this light, the podcast serves not only as an educational tool but also as an impetus for broader ecclesiastical unity, inviting listeners to reflect on their own beliefs while engaging with others in a spirit of openness and inquiry.

Takeaways:

• The upcoming podcast event 'Your Matter Matters' aims to foster dialogue between faith and science, addressing the challenges that often arise between these two domains.
• Pastors Will Rose and Thomas Johnston emphasize the importance of recognizing that all individuals, regardless of their beliefs, are part of creation and possess inherent value.
• The podcast will serve as a resource for small groups and churches to engage with scientific topics that may present challenges to faith-based communities.
• Listeners are encouraged to explore the questions posed in the podcast, understanding that they are not alone in their inquiries about faith and science.
• The series will include discussions with experts on topics such as evolution, cosmology, and the intersection of faith with contemporary scientific issues.
• The initiative seeks to create a supportive environment where congregations can openly discuss difficult questions and learn from each other's perspectives.

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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network, soon including 'Your Matter Matters':

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https://player.captivate.fm/collection/f4c32709-d8ff-4cef-8dfd-5775275c3c5e

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One Time Donations

17 in the Christian Standard Bible say, for it was you who created my inward parts. You knit me together in my mother's womb. I will praise you because I have been remarkably and wondrously made.

Your works are wondrous, and I know this very well. My bones were not hidden from you when I was made in secret, when I was formed in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw me when I was formless.

All my days were written in your book and planned before a single one of them began. God, how precious your thoughts are to me, how vast their sum is. Psalm 139 starts with David seeing of how God is all knowing and present.

And after that, in the pericope I just read, David sings of how well God knows him since he created him. After this pericope, the psalm ends by questioning God on why he won't kill kill the bad guys.

Pastor Will Rose, how does this praise for God and his act of creating tie into the question of why God won't kill the wicked?

Well, thanks for that, tj thanks for that softball question, and I'm sure I'll be able to answer it once and for all in just one or two sentences. So here I go. Just kidding. I can't. It's I, I.

The way I receive it is that praise and questions of uncertainty and doubt and the why God, why, why, why along with praise can hang out together in the same room. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. It doesn't have to be either.

Or they can hang out the same room, have a beer, have a cup of coffee, have a chat together.

And so, and then I start to think about how, you know, I'm a part of creation and then the reflection of, you know, those people who may not see the world as I see it or antagonistic towards me, they're part of creation too. So perhaps to keep this drinking game with Joshua, I'm also entangled with the wicked.

So hopefully God won't kill them because we're entangled in an intimate way at the end of all things.

Man, if we were in the episode already, I'd tell you how that connects to Gino Hearts, but here we go.

Hey guys, welcome to the Whole Church podcast, possibly your favorite Church Unity podcast, almost more than probable your favorite place to go to hear TJ Tiberius Juan Blackwell, because you're, you're more likely to hear him here than most other podcasts. So of course, if you want to hear the master of the pod, the one only TJ Tiberius on Blackwell, you're in the right spot. Tj, welcome to your show.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. And as the master of the pod, he has allowed two others to enter the pod sphere. The one and only, your favorite shaped head pastor.

Pastor Will Rose of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Will, how's it going?

Good, good. Yeah. I'm Charlie Browning all day today.

Yeah. And we are also here first time, first time guest path.

Pastor Thomas Johnston is here of the your Matter Matters fame and just famous for being friends with Will who's friends with tj. Being too removed from TJ is enough to make you famous. That's how people know Taylor Swift's name.

Yeah, that's mixed up.

Yeah. That's the only reason people know who T. Swift is.

Yeah. Thomas Johnston. Of course for many, many viewers this may be the first time to learning this. But actually is very close to my real name.

Tiberius Juan.

Yep, that's the one.

But Pastor Thomas Johnson and Pastor Will Rose are starting a limited time educational podcast with the ELCA and in partnership with the Onazzow Podcast Network titled you Matter Matters.

And this series will be used as a tool for small groups and churches everywhere to help engage with scientific topics that challenge many people in our churches today. So there's a little, little footwork for what they're doing here and what they'll be doing.

Whoa.

Big cheers, big cheers, big things coming up for these guys. If you're listening to this or your Matter Matters, check out the Onslaught podcast network for other shows like theirs and ours.

If you are already listening and you're on YouTube, hit like hit subscribe. Maybe one day you'll find out what my real life name is.

That's for million dollar members on our website. So if you go to our website, become an official member, then donate a million dollars, DJ will tell you his real name.

Right?

Right. That's true. I will go as low as like 100,000.

A hundred thousand?

Yeah.

That's what I mean.

Oh man. Yeah. I'm excited about our new website too. I think it's great. I think our new merch is great. We have one.

This is probably the last episode you'll hear where it's still available. The science fair. The whole church science fair T shirt.

So if you guys are interested in that, want to rep whole church ecumenical work as well as the importance of faith and science all at the same time. Go check that T shirt out. It's cool. I'll try to remember put a link in the show notes. But you guys know I suck at that. So don't count on it. Yeah.

One thing you can count on, though, is my love for the great ecumenical sacrament of silliness. We always start with a silly question on this show because you can't be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be.

I'm gonna ask everybody this question. TJ and I will answer first, give you guys time to think about it.

Would you rather read a scientific journal on the paranormal or a scientific journal on goblins, ogres, and other mystical creatures? Like, you just have two books.

One says the Scientific Journal of the Paranormal, and the other one says Scientific Journal of Goblin, Ogres and Other Mystical Creatures. You got to pick one of those two from the shelf. Tj, start us off, because I'm struggling to think about this for some reason.

I hate ghost shows. They're super annoying.

That's fair, I guess.

I don't like to watch the guys walk around with the mic and ask questions like, that's. I'm not a fan. Not a fan.

Yeah.

You know, I. I want to read.

The scientific journal about goblins, ogres, and other mystical creatures, because growing up, I was absolutely in love with the book Dragonology that, like, you know, presents dragons as just real life. You know, prehistoric beings. Love that. Still love it. It's still really interesting.

So I would absolutely love to read the scientific journal of hopefully, goblins, overs, and dragons.

Yeah, okay. DJs answer helped me come up with the opposite answer. Yeah, I'm doing paranormal.

As much as I agree that the, like, fake reality shows, like, ghost shows, are annoying with, like, the mics and stuff, I also love Supernatural. I love Ghostbusters. That kind of stuff's my jam.

And then also, I got to think about it, and I'm like, man, the scientific journal, like, goblin stuff is going to be a lot of anatomy. I've never been good at anatomy. I'm terrible at understanding human anatomy. What makes me think I would understand goblin anatomy any better?

I have no idea. So I have. I don't know what ghost is going to be. It's not going to be ghost anatomy, because I assume that's not a thing. So I'm picking that one up.

Curious what. What it's about, you know, will. Will help us out? What's a. Actually, you know what?

You.

You already spoke. Thomas Best Johnson. Give us a. You got two books on shelf. You're picking one up.

So glad. Glad to be here. I kind of niched it. One of those that, like, looks at something, but I kind of made it even. More specific.

So beyond goblins, ogres, and other mystical creatures, but to be focusing on how they produce energy without destroying their environment.

Yeah, yeah.

You're taking it to another level.

That actually. That one I pick up. That one sounds interesting. Yeah.

All right.

Will. Will.

Yeah.

I'm. I'm gonna read. I'm gonna see which one is trying to prove that they exist. So if one is, like, saying, like, I pick up the paranormal.

Cool.

They're gonna explain why Go exists. And then the first paragraph, like, oh, in this article, we're going to share why they don't accept, like, I'm done with you.

I'm gonna throw it off to the side. And then I'm gonna see if the. If they're trying to say that mystical creatures are real or they're like. Is real. I mean, like, cool.

I'm going to read this and see what the case is. I'm looking to see which one's trying to prove the real. I'm not going the negative route. They can.

They can disprove that all the time through scientific method, but if they have a way to prove something, I'm grabbing. Yeah.

You know, man, I just feel like a contrarian today.

I also feel like I do the opposite of you, but in the sense of, like, if I pick it up and it says anything about proving or disproving them, like, I'm just so tired of all of the shows and tropes of, like, oh, ghosts are real, but you don't know it. And here's why. Well, I know. Listen, I just want, like, let's just go in assuming that they're real and you're gonna tell me about them. That's.

That's what I want, actually.

But I'm seeing this scientific journal is not being a reality show trying to get clicks or. Or ratings. They're. They're. They're basically like a bunch of scientists, legit mainstream scientists, who are like, Yep, yeah, here's Dr. Dr. Kelly.

She's like, all right, I found. I found Loch Ness. Let's do this. I'm like, cool, let's do it.

That would be cool. Yeah.

Yeah. Hmm.

Does Loch Ness count as though? Anyway, moving on. The lesson to be derived from that segment is that Josh is not medicated today, so.

Oh, no, I am. I just countered it with a really good pumpkin stout. I'll tell you what, it's who it's by in a second.

No, thanks. Yeah, so we're gonna start with you first.

It's an ale, not a stout.

Cool.

Sorry.

We're gonna start with you for this, Thomas, just because you know our audience. They know Will. They know us. They know Will.

Could you give us just a brief layout of your own history with your faith community and with the scientific community today? And then Will ask you the same thing, but wait your turn.

So I grew up in the Lutheran church, was born, baptized and confirmed in the Lutheran church. And then when you go to public school, you learn more about the world. I was in high school, honors biology, and got introduced to evolution.

And I'm a sponge. Will knows this. I'm. I'm very much of a sponge. I tend to absorb information.

You have square pants.

I do not have square pants, man. I do not have square pants.

So during this time, I'm learning about evolution and growing up in a home that read the Bible in a very particular way that was kind of a bit at odds with modern scientific discipline, consensus, or at least when it came, or at least insofar as when it came to Genesis 1. And that's kind of where we're. Small crisis. I wouldn't call it a crisis of faith, but it led me to have more questions.

So that's when I started having questions on the relationship between Genesis 1, science. And I racked my head for years with that question. Still do in a different setting.

In college, I intentionally took classes at both a public university and at a private university and kind of to. To look more at that question of how do science and faith come together and how historically, and at least in America, they've been in conflict.

But really, I want to see how do we put these in conversation with one another? I've always been fascinated by astronomical science, cosmology, black holes, all of that.

So I was like, okay, how do I put all of that in conversation with the Bible and in the Lutheran faith? It all goes back to God.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right. So Will, same question. Faith community, scientific community. What's the rundown?

Yeah, like, Thomas, I'm a lifelong Lutheran, grew up in a Lutheran church. I get that from my mom's side of the family. And, you know, grew up as a Lutheran on the coast of North Carolina.

And I was that kid who, you know, didn't pay attention a whole lot, had to be drugged to church and made my Sunday school teachers cry. And my confirmation teachers and pastors be like, wow, this kid. And so I eventually told them I was thinking about seminary. They're like, really?

You?

But. But as I grew up a little bit, mature a little bit, I started taking my faith a little Bit more seriously.

Of course, we asked that question, what do I want to be when I grow up? And I. I was like, hey, I want to stay by the beach and. Marine biologist so I can play with dolphins and surf. And that's what I was.

I went into DID at UNC Wilmington, and.

And I took my first couple biology and chemistry and labs, and I figured out real fast that, you know, it's a long way to get to work in the ocean and just surf and play with dolphins. You had a lot to do, like a lot of science. And I made C. I made a C in my biology class and D in my math class and barely got through my lab.

And I was like, maybe I need to think about other things.

But I did have a biology professor who was the dad of one of my high school friends in UNC Wilmington, and he was a proclaimed Christian, and he taught the biology class and taught evolution taller things. And then even in class he was like, you know, we don't know why this. This is the way it is. Maybe just God made it that way and then kept going.

And I was like, oh, this is a passive aggressive way of. Of talking about. He's a person of faith.

And I remember he came to our campus ministry and talked about how he reconciled faith and science with each other. And so I grew up in a tradition where they never questioned science or we made us choose one or the other. They. We were.

My particular church denomination was science positive. And so I never went in and wrestled with science such as, you know, thought that they could go hand in hand.

But this Dr. Schaefer was the first one who, like, vocalized, look, I am a Christian and a scientist, and they can go hand in hand. So that was pretty cool. I didn't major in the sciences. I moved on, became a pastor.

But then I found myself in communities and pastoring communities where there were scientists in the communities.

And so having dialogue with them, always fascinated with the big, big, big questions around origins of life and where we're headed and how Scripture speaks to that and the scientific community and. And sciences as unveiling, revealing how. How things work in the universe. And so still fascinated with those things. And then when the tension of the.

When there are certain traditions that force people to choose one or the other, I was like, that doesn't. Doesn't seem right. Started reading people like Francis Collins and the Language of God and how he reconciled the two.

And then when I came to Chapel Hill, a lot of. A lot of scientists in my congregation had a particle physicist who works at cern was part of the Higgs boson team.

I have evolutionary biologists who are professors on campus. And so we set up.

A round table discussion with Here are some Christians in your own community who are also scientists to give our students in campus ministry permission to, to have both hang out in the same room. As we talked about, not to choose either or but to embrace the. And.

And I've been doing that for a number of years since I've been here in Chapel Hill for over a decade. And then that leads us to Thomas and I's project to help that too.

Yeah, yeah, one more thing too.

Sure.

I did a lot of my. In college, I did a lot of debate with people who tend to have an older view of the earth or a younger view of the earth.

So I was able to practice dialoguing, debating on how do you have the conversation and to some extent how it's a lot of talking past each other, not to each other.

So you mentioned a little bit Will, but what is it that inspired you two to put the project together? Exploring faith and science. Like what made you think how. Oh, we gotta get this out to the ELCA small groups. We gotta be there.

Yeah, yeah, good, great question. Well, you know, I've been on this podcast talking about faith and science and other place to talk about faith and science.

We've been a part of conferences and different things.

We got a grant a while back to do some deep diving in some of the questions and then, then I get a text and a message from, from Pastor Thomas who says hey Will, I have an idea. Thomas, I'll let you run with what that text said and, and let you run with that a little bit. Why are we doing this, Thomas?

You said hey, let's do a podcast about faith and science or get a mini grant or something.

I will also say that Thomas and I are on the board or of directors or kind of a, a steering committee with the Lutheran alliance for Faith, Science and Technology, which is a small para Lutheran organization that embraces all Lutheran denominations, mostly elca, but, but it is a, it's an organization that promotes the the and that we are for faith and science and technology, not against or faith or science or thing. There, there's. Those words are chosen carefully.

So we're part of this team and as Lutherans who tend to be introverted and into ourselves or behind closed doors, we don't like to be evangelistic. And so how do we get the word out as an organization? How do we tell people about this?

Thomas, was like, hey, what if we did a faith and science podcast? And then. And it can be. It can promote the alliance, the Lutheran alliance for Facelift and Technology. So, Thomas, go for it.

I was. I was trying to find the text, and Will and I have been talking a lot because, you know, comic books and all that jazz.

I just like how Will was like, I'm gonna let Thomas tell you about how he texted me, but here's what he texted me.

So I've always been enamored with podcasts, especially when listening to Biologus Language of God. I was like you meant to say.

Especially when listening to Anazole Podcast Network. Okay, cool.

The plug. Well, this is.

This is one of my first introductions to this network, so I'm. I'm going to apologize for that one. I. I've always been fascinated with podcasts. I also, when I can.

When I consume podcasts, I realize that they're targeted to certain groups. The elca, I will say, does not do a good job with podcasting.

They used to have a podcast called Three Sides Network, and that went kind of in depth into what the ELCA does. We are also living in a very scientific world at the moment.

The fact that you have so many artificial intelligence companies just sprouting out of nowhere and competing with, not only competing with one another, but they're also merging and doing deals with one another.

So the fact that we're having a massive artificial intelligence intelligence infrastructure booming, and the fact that we're also glued to our screens most of the time. So I. I saw that as an opportunity, as what can the church say about this?

The ELCA has a social statement which is one of our guiding teachings on genetics. But in that statement, it talks specifically about the role of that science and faith play together.

So after talking with Will, I think this is a good idea.

I think this is something that we, as the alliance, but also as member, as pastors within the North Carolina Synod, can offer to campus ministries, congregations into the wider churches. How do we have the conversation on faith and science through different topics? Will and I met at camp.

He invited me up to see how they do camp, but also to sit down and talk about what topics are we doing, who we going to reach out to, who are scholars, and how do we want to format this? We also brought this to our group, the alliance, and said, this is what we have. Here's what we're looking at. Who wants to join in?

So it wasn't just Will and I's project. We wanted to bring all of the stakeholders into this podcast.

And I'll also add that, like, you know, in terms of the, the point behind this is like, we realize a lot of congregations aren't in the middle of like a university town who are having these conversations that they may not.

This, for some people, this may be the first they, they understand the, they're asking the same questions, but they don't know necessarily how to approach it or answer it. Maybe their first introduction to these things.

We're treating this your matter matters as kind of a basic 101 of the top questions around faith and science. And, and our Senate, the North Carolina Senate, has the Casey Peeler grant, has some money for special projects.

You can apply for it, you get some money. And, and so Thomas's idea said, let's do a faith in science podcast.

I said, I know somebody who likes to edit and produce podcasts and has his own network and I work with systematic ecology. Maybe if we got a little grant money, we could help support that and, and pay him.

And then it gives us a little bit of mom, reach out to people and say, hey, we have a little money. Produce this. You want to be. You be a part of it. And, and so that's, that's what we're doing.

And, and we'll talk more about why we think, why we want to reach out to, like, the everyday people. Why it's 101, but that's kind of the origin story.

Yeah, I do feel like you are a little bit spoiled, Will, being like, in the research triangle and all. Yeah. You kind of just don't have a choice. Like.

I know, I know. If you're not, if you're not asking those questions or wrestling with people or engaging that, then, yeah, why, why am I here? It's. It's here.

It's a research triangle. There's a lot of stuff going on.

There's hospitals, there's scientists, but there's also students and grad students who are learning these things and, and, and to, and to say like, yeah, your matter matters.

And we, we're science positive and faith and science doesn't mean there's not tension, doesn't mean there aren't hard questions, but they can work together and have conversation together in a healthy way.

And. A lot of the stories we hear are either on Sunday mornings or we have a devotional and it's like, what do we do with this?

What do we do with Genesis 1 and 2? What do we do with Noah's ark? Questions that science and faith tries to answer. And sometimes Doesn't.

Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's how we know Will's not hipster too. Because if Will was hipster where he lives, he would either be young earth creationist or.

Or super into witchcraft and super. Like superstition, you know, I mean, definitely be anti science.

I mean, if you're going to do that, you're going to go to Duke.

Yeah.

Well, it is a superior school, so I don't know.

Abstate is like just a little bit away.

We can do faith and science. We can do faith and science. We can't do UNC and Duke. There's a. There's an either or. There, there. There are. There are things you have to choose.

You have to choose allegiance.

I could do both. Well, there's Duke, sports, unc, churches, churches near UNC Chapel Hill.

I love chemistry.

There's also NC State. You know, there's the Wolf Pack.

No, no, NC State is the team I hate. All right.

But.

NC State's almost as bad as Clemson. That's a bit for somebody else who listens to too much of our content. But I. Sorry.

I will say though, you know, you mentioned I need to do some of the edit work on this. I really appreciated that. I love this your matter matter project that you guys are putting together.

It also is helpful because I was already kind of working on something for the Nozzle podcast network.

This is just kind of like behind the scenes sneak peek for people, I guess, because we're just talking shop where I know a few people have already used different series that we've done on different podcasts in small groups or like Sunday school kind of stuff. You know, we, we had.

Ecumenical aesthetics is something we did on whole church podcast that I know some churches used for a series on systematic ecology. We did primarily political. I know some churches have used that to talk about how they can engage the political stuff.

So, you know, I've been wrestling for a while of like, what would it look like if we put together a program of like across the Anadel Podcast network of like, hey, you want to do an eight week study on LGBTQ issues? Here we are. And not giving answers, but kind of giving like a workbook and episodes that we're listening to so people can kind of engage with that?

Because it does seem to be something churches are doing more of using podcasts for some of this stuff. So. Yeah.

And. And also we. We're not. We're not breaking any great new ground here. There's not like, there's not other faith and science podcasts.

Out there.

It's probably a lot and a lot of good ones, Biologus being one of them and wonderology and they're popping up loads like. But what part of this is also giving people resources to let them know there's a lot of good resources out there.

So we talk with Jim Stump about evolution. He's got a great book on it. He's the host of Language of God.

We, we have Emily Smith coming, who's going to talk, who is an epidemiologist, who's going to talk about the science of health, health care and has a book and has a great substack. And so we want to lift up and center people who are experts in it. So, so if this is their first time going, oh, yeah, I asked that question.

I didn't know there's more resources. Cool. Let me, let me go deeper into that. So it's a way to introduce the, the subject or the question and then let people.

And then lift up for them other resources that are out there to go. To go deeper. So that's, that's kind of the point.

Which is perfect. It's something we do across the podcast network.

We, we embrace the world's worst marketing strategy, where instead of having competitors or saying this or this, we say us and, and we're like, hey, listen to whole church podcast and also literally any other church unity podcast we can find, we'll tell you about. And same thing, systematic ecology. We just plug any fandom ones because we're, we're bad marketers. On purpose.

Yeah, maybe that's our new slogo Amazon Podcast Network. Bad marketers sounds like a good unity.

Podcast that you want to unify and bring other people into the conversation.

I remember early on someone told us like, the best way to have a podcast is to create an enemy. And then we're just like, our enemy is people who are creating enemies. Anyway, so I digress.

I do want to hear a little bit more and you know, I've heard some of this, but our listeners probably aren't as aware your mana matters when it comes out. What are some of the guests? What are some of the topics that people can expect from you guys in this series?

Thomas, you want to just kind of maybe give us a little bit of list off the top of your head who you remember and what topics you know are like maybe the most exciting ones.

So I'm looking forward to talking to the Reverend Dr. Ted Peters.

He is a systematic theologian, which he basically puts theology in a whole big box and tries to put it all together, that's an oversimplification of what he actually does. But his specialty is astro, theology and cosmology, and more importantly, the search for alien. He is a member of the.

That is indeed important.

Yeah. So he's. He's a member of a board. That kind of. It's like, what happens if aliens come? What do we do as Christians? How do we think about that?

And it's just put into, like, the wider concept is of, well, what if God created extraterrestrials? What does that relate to us as humans? So I'm looking forward to that.

Will and I did a podcast, which we actually recorded first, but it's like second or third in the actual order with the Reverend Dr. Catherine Schiffer Decker on the problem of the questions and curiosity of Pain and suffering.

In Job, which is one of my favorite books, we talked a lot about those whirlwind speeches which other theologians, other scientists have talked about God and the cosmos and all that jazz. So that was one of my favorites.

Yeah, yeah. Listen, if the government's listening, I'll give you the correct answers.

If you find the Martian from Looney Tunes, what you should do is send them to me. If you find Martian Manhunter or any Green Lantern, send them to tj. The rest of them I don't need to know about.

Unless it's a necromorph, in which case, let me know so I can get off this planet.

Wait, what about the overcons of Percy I ate?

Yeah, no, don't care. I'll help take care of baby Kal El.

If baby Kal El lands, I will help nurture.

Yeah, I don't care about him either.

I'll be pocket. I'll be talking.

If you.

If we find a Green Lantern and it's a Leasel Pawn, not interested.

If it's not Guy Gardner, though, I mean, that's not Guy Gardner.

I'll hang out with Guy Gardner. He's a human.

We're going to have an introduction to the questions of why we feel like it's important and have some of the board members and steering committee members of the Lutheran alliance for Faith, Science and Technology. And then we have five questions. One is evolution. Second, cosmology, AI and tech. The question of pain and suffering.

And then the science of healthcare. That's, you know, as research is being cut and undermined when it comes to Vaccines and healthcare. And who can you trust or not?

It says autism caused by Tyol. You know, let's, let's think through this, folks. What are we, what are we really doing? So Emily Smith can help guide some of that.

And then our roundtable wrap up at the end will be other members of the alliance to, to share why this is important, what we learn from these and, and, and give some prompt questions to, to people who, who listen or small groups that listen to the podcast.

Thank you, Will.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really excited.

So for us, we recently we just wrapped up a series that we called the whole Church Science fair and we learned a ton of a few things that stood out to us were how people on both sides of all these massively divisive issues like creationism, original sin, LGBTQ treatment in churches.

Both sides will use science to justify their positions and legitimize their actions, which to me reflects awfully closely to how people use the Bible.

What?

Yeah.

You know, it's just as easy to.

Use science out of context as it is to use the Bible out of context.

New favorite TJ quote.

So how do you two respond when this kind of thing comes up where two sides of the same coin claim that the science is on their side?

That's good.

Yeah.

I think there is a difference between mainstream science. Vetted science, mere science, as some people would say, and, and the science pseudoscience.

Are people trying to prove their point or like take something out of context, like they're proof texting a certain scripture verse. You know, there, there are scholars within.

Bible, Bible scholarship who, who look at the whole picture and, and go in deep and do exegetical work with the, with the Greek and the Hebrew and language. And I think there are people who are doing that with sciences too.

It's hard to just say, oh, I found something in like a glim thing of science that proves my point. I'm going to take that out of context. I think, I think there's a whole scientific community, peer reviews, believable science, not.

I, I think, I think there's a way to do that there. It is analogous to those things. But I think I, yeah, I'm not a scientist, so I can't explain the scientific method. Yeah, go for it.

I want to push back a little bit and then, and then make this like something that's so problematic you can't possibly answer it. Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, that's my goal.

Here's, here's Joshua Zuno. Reverse card.

Let's do it.

Come on.

Okay. So, so first I'm gonna push back a little bit on the. On I. First off, I do agree with you. I'm just giving you questions I can't answer. So.

Not the first time.

You know, when I think about, like, in general, though, a lot of the times popular science has been wrong and some random fringe science thing was right. Like, you know, the whole shape of the earth thing is kind of an example of that.

And we've seen instances of that throughout history where, like, main science said one thing and then it turned out they were just wrong. And there's one fringe scientist idea if no one, you know? You know what I mean? So to me, that's an issue.

The other thing is a lot of the pushback you hear from especially conservatives right now is this elitism thing. And it's like, okay, so you're saying your science is the only accounts, ours isn't, you know, whatever.

And I'm going to get the specific one I want to pull a thread at that's going to be, like, hard for us to move forward with.

Specifically, if you look at, like, science around transgenderism right now, there is a lot of things that suggest it's not as black, as white as some of our more progressive people, politically and Christian, want to make it. We're like, hey, maybe some of this stuff is curable. Maybe some of this stuff isn't biological. Maybe some of the stuff.

And there are legitimate questions science is bringing. But because. And I want to emphasize that I agree with this part because it causes so many people so much harm.

It's almost like we're ignoring that science because we're like, okay, but here's what's useful and helpful for people right now. But then by doing that, the people who are like, okay, wait a minute, you told us our science isn't real.

But I'm looking at the scientific records and it's actually supporting what I'm saying. I think they have a real point there.

Even though I disagree with how they are trying to treat these people, the fact that we're ignoring the science for convenience sake, I don't know. I see where they're coming from, even though I disagree with them. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah. How do you go for that, Thomas?

How do you answer that?

Yeah, who wants to stand in front of the semi truck that's coming at it?

Well, yeah. Yeah, I think.

I'm sorry, guys. TJ has an answer.

So I was actually thinking about this before Josh started speaking, because this is one of the big things that, you know, when I was growing up, or let me rewind.

Oftentimes, what you'll find, instead of people taking science out of context and using it as a weapon, you will find people clinging to old data because, you know, they'll learn it and then they'll just keep that in the back of their mind and that'll be something that they lean on. But part of being a scientist, you know, who makes money being a scientist, is you have to continue your education, which use pastors, you know.

You know, it's a similar thing. But that's why teachers always have to learn new material, because science is not set in stone. Then it would be called history.

Science is constantly evolving. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. My camera's too framey to pick up a wink right now.

Yeah.

So that specifically the sex chromosome, your 23rd pair of chromosomes in the human genome.

It's.

There are reports coming out over the past few years that there are actually in some cases recessive sex chromosomes in that genome, which instead of ending up with XX or an XY sex chromosome, you will end up with an XY XX or an XY xy. So that science is changing, not changing, but, you know, being discovered as we speak. So that's the kind of thing we're dealing with here.

And you got to stay on your toes. You got to stay informed.

Yeah.

I too want to say I think there is a real problem from the elites, even though I hate using that language, and even some scientists, even if we look at the virus stuff, the coronavirus stuff, where out of convenience sake, we're just going to tell you to do this and allow it to look like that's what science is saying when really we don't know. We just know that this is the safest thing to do whether we're right or wrong.

And I think maybe a little bit more honesty could probably help of like, hey, we're actually not sure what causes people to be lgbtqt, you know, name your whatever, but what we do know is treating them this way seems harmful. So while we're figuring this thing out, maybe not treat them that way. You know, like.

And I also want to say I find it problematic on both sides that no one seems to be okay with asking questions if it seems to go too much against what they believe. You know, conservatives really hate when you start questioning, wait, did the Bible really say that?

What if we look into the language, they get really offended by that. But it's like, wait a minute, if we're not willing to actually ask about the language, we're not actually engaging the Bible. Right.

And then on the more progressive side, the more science friendly side, if we're not willing to ask the stuff about transgenderism and stuff that maybe makes you uncomfortable because we want to affirm these people and I'm with you, I want to affirm them. But if we're not willing to ask the scientific questions, we're not actually in favor of science.

We're in favor of people behaving the way we want, which is a different kind of discussion.

Yeah, I'm going to go back to your original question. I'm not going to take the bait. That's probably smart because what I was going to say, the exact same thing is ask questions and be curious.

When you say you have something on your side, you're certain, you are certain.

Yeah.

You're not, you're saying this is it, you're, you're fundamentalist on either extreme, either on the religious side or the scientific side.

And I think that's where a lot of the rub is, is science says this, religion says this, that's it, that's settled, kind of compartmentalizing the two. But they're asking different questions. But they're also not, they're asking different questions and they're also not asking questions.

And, and we are products of the Enlightenment. I hate to say that we are products of the Enlightenment for good, bad or indifferent of whatever that is.

We, we come from a spirit, we come from a place that asks questions.

Granted, the Enlightenment very much diminished religion and prep and put science above religion, even made religion natural and took out, took the supernatural out of it. That being said, we live in, we also live in a time where institutions aren't trusted.

And Joshua, that kind of goes back to the point we are talking about the elites or questioning science is we, we've lost trust in institutions and one of those institutions we have trust in are. The scientific institutions, the academies, the, the CDC for that matter.

We're talking about public health because they, they've issued guidance in one direction, but they also issue guidance in a very different direction on, during, a very, during, like a very same thing. Yeah, yeah.

I, I will say that I, I think some of that distrust comes from.

Places and people and other institutions who want to undermine them because of their own, because they want to elevate themselves and they want to acquire for themselves their own power and influence and money as well. So there's a, there's an agenda to undermine these and, and put distrust in it so they can elevate them or whatever that that means.

But I, I will say that, yeah, I, I talking with somebody the other day about, like, there was the deconstruction and dis and distrust of religious institutions, and then you get to like, colleges and universities, and now science is next on the chopping block. So many people are like, oh, man.

What are we going to do?

The, the science, they don't believe science anymore. It's like, well, welcome to the club. Like, they haven't been. The church has been that way for, for a while, people.

But I think because of the distrust and polarization there, there are a lot of things that get lost and there's a regroup and a rethinking, a reconstruction of how do we communicate and working away this benefit and not just feel like we're in our ivory tower.

Whether that's theologians or whether that's politicians or whether it's the professor at a college or they're their ivory tower and they feel like they're above everybody else. Science can be that way, too.

But with COVID we are watching science happen in real time, and people are like, wait, I thought you said something to do that we had to do this. And they're. And they're like, well, how science work is, you learn and you grow and you change as you come around.

And there's peer review and there's people and there's community. And so a lot of it isn't like, wait and see, but it is like, let's keep up with what's going on in this particular field.

And the curiosity and the questions that people ask isn't just one person saying this, but the whole community who has peer review as well. And then that's how I think community and religious communities can, can work as well. That there's. We do, we don't do it by ourselves. There's.

There's peer review. There's people who. You know, connect or resonate with certain things. But yeah, I guess all that to be saying is that science, there's a difference.

We say in the podcast, there's a difference between science and scientism, just like there's a difference between faith and fundamentalism that there's room for questions and we say the common ground that they can work in is this area of awe and wonder and curiosity in the questions that we ask.

Yeah, well, I'm going to, I'm going to answer my own question and then move on, because we do have to move on. To me, a lot of this comes to polarization, which, hey, cool this church unity Podcast, Great place for this conversation.

I think if someone were to ask you the question, and I'm anybody listener, ourselves, whoever wants to reflect on this, and there's two different ways I'm going to word this.

You're not able to talk to the other side, which means you'll never convince the other side.

And.

And you're just so stuck in your thing. Like, I feel like it's almost a form of idol worship.

You work it with a kind of arrogance that you're not able to actually have the conversations that allow anyone to move forward. You have to be open to being wrong, even about the most basic stuff. Gravity. We found out a lot about gravity lately, guys. Anyway, yeah, that just.

That is my answer to my own question. Unless TJ wants to tell me I'm stupid, I'm gonna move on to the next thing.

Both.

Okay.

The other thing that really interested us during our science fair series we did is how the people that we know in the scientific community are using their fields of study to enhance their view of God, to enhance their own spiritual walks. You know, that kind of stuff. But that's not really what we hear on news or anything.

So why do you guys think we see more instances on social media and TV of Christians railing against sciences rather than the stories of Christian scientists whose faith are enriching their scientific studies and.

Vice versa, because conflict is sexy.

True. Next question.

You get. Yeah, you get more. You get more clicks and more likes from. From the debate and, oh, I'm going to own this person, see who wins.

We're there to see an arena. Glad gladiatorial fight in the arena than we are to like, oh, click on this and hear a healthy conversation between a scientist and a Christian.

You're like, oh, boy.

So I don't know how many your matter matters is going to outdo, like, you know, the debates, podcast or whatever is out there, but I, but I will say there's a difference between when Joshua says Christian scientists is different than scientists who happen to be Christians, there's a whole like, denomination and tradition of Christian Scientists who don't really believe in science, I think. No, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, so anyway, so just a distinction there that scientists who happen to be people of faith are Christians. You know, the sea.

I think there needs to be a better job with that and I think with BioLogos, Jim Stump, Francis Collins, what we're doing with the Lutheran alliance for Faith Science and saying it's in technology is to be more vocal and more out there.

And, and sometimes that takes a little work for those who are introverted or like, don't want to toot their own horn or just want to keep their head down, do their research.

But like, hey, you know, and then it's hard to like, in the, in the communities where there's universities, you're not supposed to talk about religion as much. It's hard to talk about religions and politics. Just do your job.

And so to come out and say, well, I'm also a person of faith in a scientist is a little hard. And, and, and there has been some bullying in universities about.

There are, there are people who are scientists who, who happen to be Christian who don't feel comfortable because they feel like they're, they're going to get attacked from an atheist who, who doesn't feel like that that face should be anywhere near of what they're doing. So there, there is some reverse peer pressure there when it comes to that too, that, that people have to admit.

And I, and I think it goes to what Will was saying in a little bit, talking about again, proselyzation and evangelization in a way, because you're not as a public employee.

And I think this is where a lot of the rub happens, is in public university settings because you are by extension a government employee since you work for a public institution, which is a bit different than if you're at a private institution. But again, you're kind of facing the same things. I think just people are afraid to share their views.

Like when Will, she was sharing his story about his biology professor, he again, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. I'm a Christian. I, I'm a Christian who also happens to be a scientist. I found the way to blend the two together.

And others don't feel as comfortable or they internalize the conflict narrative that society perpetuates, that they're afraid to speak out to how they truly think or feel unless they do it in a small, intimate setting. Which, again, Joshua, goes back to what you're saying about polarization.

We live in a time when we're not comfortable sharing our views because we don't want to get into conflict with someone else.

And I think people are seeing a change in that. I have heard that Dan Cook, on his podcast of, you know, religion on the Mind and. And you have permission, spoke about, like, 10 years ago.

There really was, like, don't talk about these things. Or those questions are coming to the surface, and we really have to wrestle with it. But there's a little bit more. People are seeing the polarization.

They're seeing the importance of getting out there and sharing things. So while things are harder to talk about things, some ways they're. They're easier as well. Or people see the need to have healthier conversations.

Polarization is a problem. How can we come to the table and have healthy conversations around these things?

And that's. And that's a lot. What Will and I are. Are trying to do is we want people to have the conversations.

We want them to ask the questions, and we want people to. We want to get people comfortable being uncomfortable by disagreeing. We want people to become comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Yeah. So do y' all think a better understanding of the relationship of faith and science could possibly help enhance our efforts in ecumenicism or.

No, understanding is bad. What do we think?

I think it actually helps. So the alliance meets once a year in Chicago for an ecumenical roundtable, and we meet with Roman Catholics.

And I'm saying we being a part of the group, though I haven't actually been to these things yet because it usually falls on a very awkward time in April, and I'm either on vacation in Texas or I'm doing something else.

Where's Easter?

Or it's Easter. That's the other thing, too. Easter. Yeah, but it's with Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterian.

If the Moravians had something, the Greek Orthodox even has education materials on talking about science and faith. And definitely in the Orthodox realm, theology is the queen of the sciences. So they do.

That's where they tend to dive a bit more into seeing theology as one of the sciences. But how does then theology relate to the natural sciences? And again, how does it all go back to God?

And I. Yeah, no, it does.

But I think as much as I would like for everyone to reconcile their science and their faith, I would personally really, really love to meet a geologist who is just a steadfast Young Earth Creationist.

Yeah. Yeah. There's also side note real quick because I think it's funny. My.

My favorite until Yalls release Lutheran and science podcast is named the Queen of the Science Podcast.

Yes.

Sarah Hilson Wilkinson. I think I'm saying that wrong. Wilson.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've actually talked to her before. I'm trying to get her on our show at some point. She's really cool. Yeah, that's what I heard.

Yeah. So it. That helped shaped a lot of my views. But TJ Yeah. It would be great to meet a geologist who also happens to be.

Yeah.

On your Earth Creationist. And again, it's. I mean, you can go to the ark and you might find one the.

The real ark that they found over in the Middle East.

Yeah. In the mountains. I've seen the pictures.

I was trying to find like a drum, but we don't have it.

So is there anything else that y' all think our listeners might like to know about yout Matter Matters before we wrap up?

Yeah, I would just say that it is a conversation piece. It's not like we're gonna, in 45 minutes, solve the problem or solve the tension or answer the question perfectly.

There's tons of books and resources out there. But what we want to do is present the question, present the tension. Why is there a problem? Why are people question this where.

Why do people wrestle with this and then present a healthy approach to it and then. And then point to other. Other resources that are out there to go deeper and explore it? So we're not trying to answer or solve anything. We're.

We're just trying to present it and then. And then get people permission to wrestle with it. That you're not alone.

You're not the first person or the last person to ask this particular question. You're. You're not alone. We've all been there. We've done it.

And then, you know, if, if you like it for your congregation and, and you want a season two, let us know. We got more other questions. There's not just five questions or five problem there. There's a lot. And so we're. We can do more if.

If the demand is there. People want to know.

Really love the show. Your matter matters. You just bug them until they do it again. True. You know, tell them the series gave you life and then they can release.

Your matter matters again.

That's right.

Your matter matters still. That's what it'd be.

Season two. Your matter still matters.

I'm writing that down, Joshua. I'm Writing that down.

One thing we all excite to do before wrapping up, just to ask our guests if they could provide a tangible action that would help church unity. For purposes, what is something practical that you think people could stop and do right now?

Pastor Will, that would help bring the church closer together?

I think that and on brand with your matter matters is to be able, whether they disagree with you or not, whether you see them as your enemy and you ask God, why aren't you killing my enemies? That you see the. In the other person that their matter matters to. If your matter matters, then guess what, their matter matters as well.

And so to see the other person, human creature, as creating the image of God and that their matter matters and that you're entangled with it, you are Joshua, then maybe that. Maybe that could have some impact on how you see the larger world.

For church unity, I would encourage people asking the questions and going out and meeting other people, getting together with other churches and doing a deeper dive into this.

Spending time in the Bible spend and spending time talking to one another and realizing that we have a whole lot more in common than we do, than we have different. There's more commonality than there is difference.

And that's part of the year. Matter matters is we want people to be in small groups.

Not just listen to the podcast on a run and then go about your business, but to do it in groups together so you can hear where they're coming from and what questions they have and what common ground they have. And maybe they're cherished perspective. So. So we really want that podcast, this podcast, your matter matters.

Whether it comes out in December or January or March, we want people to do it in. In small groups together, to have conversations together. Yeah.

Yeah.

My practical action is I think if everybody really contemplatively played Kingdom Hearts, the church would be more united. I think that's true.

Probably true that I really do think that doesn't count as a drink.

So if everyone believes and internalizes that your matter matters and each other's matter matters in their small groups while they study your matter matters. Matter matter.

Or play Kingdom Hearts. You know, maybe that's a small group.

Or play Kingdom Hearts. Yeah, that's a good answer. What would change?

What would change in the world?

What would we see happen in the church?

I think a deeper understanding. I think to know one, to know you're not alone and to. To have a connection with. With the other. And perhaps, I mean, just a short story.

When we had our other grant and we talked with students and emerging adults about questions. We lifted up some questions in there.

I was sitting beside an undergrad college student and he was like, I thought I was the only one with that question. And I looked at Robert and I was like, no, no, no, no, no. People have been asking this a long time.

So he really thought he was the only one who was wrestling with that question and was ashamed to ask it because he didn't want to make it sound like he was the only one or be question shamed for it. But. But no, he's not alone. So I think, yeah, understand we're in this together is a big part of it. Right. Right.

Nice. So hope that's true and hopefully we'll find out this December, January slash March.

So before we wrap up, we like to do what we call our God moment, which is just where we share where we saw God recently in our lives. Whether that be a blessing, challenge, mode of worship, curse, whatever it may be. Where you saw God recently, that's what we want to hear.

And I always make Josh go first to give the rest of us enough time to think. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Yeah, I'm going to be a little vulnerable and then talk about Kingdom Hearts. Yeah. Yeah. So I recently have had a lot of struggles for various reasons and have kind of felt down on myself a lot recently.

I said recently twice, but I've really been feeling kind of down on myself and just where I am in the world, etc. For some reason, while I was working, doing some of my homework this morning, I was like, I know what should be on the tv.

I will do the theater version of the entirety of Kingdom Hearts 358x2.

And in that one of the few times I bothered to look up and pay attention because I'm eating, they're going on a rant of how, like, hey, we're nobodies and that means we mean nothing. But why do I still feel something? Why is this still passionate to me? Why do I still care about this? Maybe I still have a heart. Maybe I do matter.

Maybe my matter matters. They didn't say that line, Unfortunately. Kingdom Hearts dropped the ball in that one specific line.

But just kind of listening to that and kind of reminding myself, I already know this. I already know that I do matter, that I'm not a nobody. Even though I'm watching it through the fictional lens, it just. It resonated with me.

I was like, okay, hey, it's time to stop feeling down about myself and maybe do something about It. So, yeah, that to me was a moment this morning.

Yeah, it's a good moment. So for me, this is going to sound crazy to some of you. My God moment is.

It's about three episodes. Since then. Josh Patty, Jay Patty's. I listened to a couple of homebrew Christianities. Yeah.

Shout out.

J. Patty.

Yeah.

As always. And Shaleen Chalene Kennedy, who we need to reschedule with to be on our show.

Oh, that will record that next week. But that already came out. Listening. Time travel schedules are awesome.

Time travel.

Yeah.

So that's been. It's been pretty humbling.

I don't know.

It's not the word eye opening. I don't feel like that's right either. It just feels more genuine to be involved in a community that I am involved in.

I like how you worded it. Still funny, though. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the most accurate way.

I don't mind going next to piggyback on that because we were at Theology Beer camp together. And I will say I serve communion every Sunday. It's one of the favorite things that I do as a pastor is to.

To distribute the sacrament to God's people. And even if I butcher a sermon or worship doesn't connect with folks or the hymns being played too slow.

I do know every Sunday I get to hand somebody a piece of bread and say the body of Christ given for you. And. And that's. There's always good news there. And so I do Sunday. I love it. It's. It's very special.

But then at Theology Beer Camp, be able to distribute communion at that space for some people who haven't been in church in a long time, who.

The way that Trip and Sarah set the table for others to be a safe place for them to come into church again and receive communion again and to give bread and wine to folks with literally tears in their eyes that you can just see that they were wrecked. You can see that they were wrecked in a good way. In a way that they were like, stripped of their. Of. Of whatever notion that they brought in or.

Or I'm trying to find the words of. I can't. I don't want to describe how they were feeling, but knowing that they were moved by what was going on and to give them bread and wine and.

And share with them that they matter. Was. Was pretty special. It was a very big God moment.

Yeah. It was. Being the hand sanitizer guy.

Yeah. You had the other sacrament, the other.

Sacrifice, clean hands, washing and hand sanitizing.

Yeah. You know, if Jesus was around today, he went to wash feet, you would have gambling out hand sanitizer.

Yeah, he would have done both.

Hand sanitized foot sanitizer. That's what.

Yeah. Where's that at? Why is that not a debris? Chipotle.

I know. Thomas.

I would say for me, I've been enjoying the rain for the past couple of days. It's been refreshing renewing. Especially like just the scenery of the rain coming down against the.

With the fall leaves as a nice backdrop on my patio. Reminds me that for every time there's a season and again everything goes back to God.

That kind of sounds cliche, but really putting God at the center of all of that. And again, how we have two books. Book of nature and the book of Scripture and how both form us and inform us as creatures of a God who loves us.

Love that. Also been really enjoying the rain. I love the rain and the cold. It's been like 47 degrees. That's a.

That's a God I hate most in life. Rain and cold.

It's been.

I used to love the rain until it started causing me to have intense pain, you know.

Yeah, I just live with it.

It was great before then.

I like the pain. So if you liked this episode or hated this episode, please consider sharing it with your friends. Share with your enemies. Share with a cousin.

Especially your cousins.

Share with all your cousins.

Yeah.

And you can leave a one time tip.

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The best place to support us.

Yeah. Yeah. There's other things you can do in fourth wall to support us too.

But clothes are the way to go because it's like advertising plus comfort plus you give us like I think 50 cents per shirt inside. I think it's a little bit more.

Than that, but pretty awesome.

Yeah. Anyway, it's multiple ways of supporting all in one. When you get merch guys, check out the other show. Not as all podcast network, of course.

Your mana matters is coming out soon or already out, who knows. But also let nothing move you. Our favorite conservative southern Baptist Bible podcast. Yeah. Yeah, it's on the network.

And I'm really moved by.

It's very moving in his presentation.

He doesn't understand the show.

And I will say also that Christian's really great at holding a point of view graciously and allowing you to have your own point of view, even if you have bad opinions.

Yeah.

Like a stone in a river. Yes.

Yeah.

And it's still being moved, even if it's just sitting there because there's. It has water has an effect on it.

Anyway, don't tell him.

Don't tell him that erosion is not movement. So we. Eventually, the river is moving. But we hope you enjoyed the show. Coming up, we'll be interviewing Dr. Chris Hansen. Not that one.

About his book on parenting from an open and relational theological model. Open and relational parenting, loving parents reflecting and loving God.

After that, we'll be having Russ Petrus back on the show to discuss another Catholic organization that he helps with called Future Church.

Then, of course, we're going to have top Dr. Thomas J. Ord, yet another Thomas, back on with us to discuss how our views have changed or grown over the last couple of years. You know, due to Thomas J Ord's constant pestering.

Well, and everybody else and TJ finally listening to podcasts. That's the biggest change. Wow.

Well, by the time we do that episode, I'll stop.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Good.

At the end, will you be moved.

To listen to more?

Maybe. Maybe so. Unless I listen to Christians. He was right.

He was right. I shouldn't be listening.

Yeah. But finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan is going to be on the show. Maybe.

Probably. As long as you guys tell him about it.

Yeah. Perhaps tentatively.