The salient point of this episode revolves around the intricate processes and personal experiences associated with church building projects, as articulated by Pastor Kenny Hibbard and Bishop Kenneth Baker. During our discourse, we delve into the multifaceted nature of these endeavors, exploring the challenges, misconceptions, and overlooked blessings inherent in the construction of church facilities. The conversation is enriched by insights from both leaders, who reflect on their respective journeys in establishing places of worship that serve as community hubs. Their narratives provide profound reflections on the spiritual significance of church buildings and the essential role they play in fostering congregational growth and unity. Ultimately, this episode serves as a compelling exploration of how faith and practicality converge in the pursuit of creating spaces for worship and fellowship within the Church.

The second installment of our series, "Holy Logistics: How the Church Gets Made," delves into the intricate processes involved in constructing church buildings, an essential aspect of establishing vibrant faith communities. In this enlightening discussion, hosts Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell engage with Pastor Kenny Hibbard and Bishop Kenneth Baker, both of whom have extensive experience in church development. They share their insights on the profound significance of building projects, highlighting that these endeavors are not merely about erecting structures, but rather about creating sacred spaces that foster spirituality and community engagement. The conversation is anchored in the biblical context of Haggai 1:7-9, which emphasizes the importance of prioritizing God's house over personal comforts. Pastor Hibbard and Bishop Baker elucidate the myriad challenges they have faced, from financial constraints to community resistance, while also celebrating the transformative impact that a dedicated church building can have on congregational life and outreach. Through their narratives, they illustrate that the journey of church construction is often fraught with trials, yet it ultimately serves to witness God's provision and to strengthen the faith of the community. This episode serves as a reminder that the physical spaces we inhabit for worship are integral to our collective spiritual journey, urging listeners to reflect on their own priorities concerning their faith communities.

Takeaways:

• The importance of prioritizing God's house above personal interests is emphasized through biblical teachings, particularly Haggai 1:7-9.
• Pastor Kenny Hibbard and Bishop Kenneth Baker share significant insights on the challenges and blessings involved in church building projects.
• The episode discusses how church facilities can serve as vital community spaces that extend beyond mere worship services, fostering deeper congregational engagement.
• A historical perspective on church planting reflects a shift towards community-focused ministry, necessitating physical spaces for gathering and outreach.

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https://the-whole-church-podcast-shop.fourthwall.com/

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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network and find merch to support some of your favorite podcasts on the network's website:

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Hear more from Joshua on his other podcast, Be Living Water:

https://be-living-water.captivate.fm/listen

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Check out TJ on Systematic Geekology:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/f4c32709-d8ff-4cef-8dfd-5775275c3c5e

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Be sure to come out and meet Joshua at Theology Beer Camp 2026 in Kansas City:

https://theologybeer.camp/

Haggai 1:7:9 in the Christian Standard Bible say the Lord of Armies says this.

Think carefully about your ways.

Go up into the hills, bring down lumber and build the house, and I will be pleased with it.

It be glorified, says the Lord.

You expected much, but that it amounted to little when you brought the harvest to your house.

I ruined it.

Why?

This is the declaration of the Lord of Armies because my house still lies in ruins while each of you is busy building his own house.

The prophet Haggai was known for his criticism of his fellow Hebrew people for their overattentiveness to their own homes during the exilic period, over their concern for returning to Jerusalem to build the temple for the Lord.

Reverend Ken Baker, how might we today learn from the criticisms here concerning our priorities to God's house?

Well, priority is exactly the word.

He is number one.

And I guess as a minute.

I have always wrestled with trying to balance priorities between the family and other duties, but I've never had a.

Never had a problem understanding that the Lord and his workplace.

All right,.

Welcome.

Welcome to the first recorded episode, the Church behind the Scenes Holy Logistics.

We're looking at how the church gets made.

You know, church buildings, pipe organs, church communities, sermons.

My dad was on the first episode, so we totally already did.

We.

I spot out building a sermon, what that was like and today we're here with none other than oh my favorite kins brother, Brother Ken Baker.

Love having him here.

He's been on the show before.

It's been a minute, but it's always good to hear from Brother Baker.

We are also here at the one and only Pastor Kenny Hibbard.

Great guy.

I actually met him while he was teaching a guest class at Charleston Southern on church planning.

So it makes him a pretty, pretty perfect for this episode, actually.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We like to get a little literal about things.

But Kim Baker, if you don't know, he's pastor, former state bishop and a teacher with the Church of God Prophecy, the church that I'm still a part of.

Unlike some people.

Kenny Hibbert is the pastor at Team church in Matthews, North Carolina and helped plant that church in the late 90s, which is when I was born.

So nice long career here.

Nice long career.

But if you want to know more about us, you can go to our website.

You can also purchase one of our T shirts there.

It helps promote the show.

It raises money for podcasting needs and lets others know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church.

I always go with the, the tj quote on the back.

Shirt.

It's a plain black shirt with our logo on the front.

It doesn't say anything on the back.

And I think that's great.

It's a great bit.

Yeah.

You should also check out the Amazon Podcast network website, the links below for other shows like ours, shows that aren't like ours.

Shows like Systematic Ecology where we talk about whatever strikes our fancy.

Really us and 12 other people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

TJ and I just got off a like two hour role playing game we did over there.

Geeks on the Roll series.

So check that out.

I love the Geeks on Roll series.

Even when it's I'm not on it.

It's fun to listen to, just see what people come up with.

But today we are going to start, as always, with the holy sacrament of silliness that I like to do here.

Because you can't be divided when you're being silly, as I sometimes like to be.

Depends on my mood today.

I've been pretty silly overall.

I think ask you guys will answer first.

Give you time to think about it.

If Shrek from Shrek invited you to a small group Bible study in his swamp, who would you want to take with you?

Could be a real person, fictional, biblical character, someone in your life.

Doesn't really matter.

You know, I'm gonna sound so lame for this, but like one of the things that like me and my wife constantly quote Shrek all the time.

Like we love these movies and Donkey.

So I feel like if I didn't take Tiffany with me to go see Shrek for a Bible study, she might kill me.

Then we'd have to help with a whole other Bible study.

Like it'd be a mess.

So like I. I gotta take Tiffany with me to the swamp.

Yeah.

Even though she doesn't like swamps.

I feel like she'd be pretty mad if I didn't take her for that.

She wanted a Shrek.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, tj, what about you, man?

Who are you taking to the.

The Bible study in the swamp?

Swamp?

Honestly?

Probably you.

I think that would be the most entertaining choice for me.

Heck yeah.

I mean, I just.

I'd have a me and you would have a great time, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Brother Baker, I don't think you ever thought I would ask you this, but if you were invited to this Bible study, who would you take with you?

I wasn't expecting a Saint Shrek question, but have a friend of mine, Dr. Phil Smith, not only is he a tremendous Bible scholar, he's good sized Man.

And if we ran into deep water, I just ride him.

He'd float.

Self practical and spiritual application there.

Yes.

He's a good guy too.

We need to get him on the show sometime.

You do?

Yeah.

All right.

Pastor Kenny Hibbert, take us home.

Who are you bringing with you to our Shrek Bible study?

I think I'd go with Tim Tebow.

I think.

Of course.

I love, love football, love the Gators.

I think he's done a great job.

And I think me and.

Me and Tim would be great to go hang out with Shrek.

And I think he.

I think he would think it was actually just as fun as me.

I believe that.

And I forget about the Gators thing.

Being a lifelong Florida State fan, we found a way to make a silly question challenging for unity.

But I'm gonna move past it.

I'm gonna forgive you because, you know, I think Tebow is a good guy.

He was almost a Seminole.

Sure.

You know, almost.

Yeah.

We chose otherwise and I don't know if we all are proud of that decision.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of baseball, personally.

That's why I liked mt, bro.

Yeah, funny.

So.

So before we get into the other fun stuff with this series, couldn't.

Could someone help us lay out why this is so important?

Both of you have helped plant churches, physically built a church, building a church camp.

What challenges, misconceptions, overlooked blessings come with projects like this that you think our listeners might be interested in.

Kenny Hibbert, do you want to take a lead here?

I think the.

The Bible is pretty clear that we should be planting churches and starting new churches.

And so that's always a mission specific gospel thing in talking about.

What you're talking about here is not only planting a church, but then if you're going to have the opportunity, the church makes it and survives and has a place to meet.

I think it's very interesting that people, some people, they believe that the building is a waste of money, the building is a waste of resources, you don't really need it.

And that that is having planted this church.

And I'm not sure if Joshua knows this at all, but out of team church, we have planted seven other churches.

All seven churches are still doing very well.

Our most recent church is our former youth pastor.

We supported him, gave him resources and a calling, or he had the calling.

We sent him to St. Petersburg, Florida.

They're now they'll be a year old in September and they're doing incredible.

And so we have.

From team church, we have planted seven other Churches and any.

Most church planters who after a couple of years they will say, listen, we can do more ministry and more focus on people if we are not always tearing down, setting up and trying to get the logistics of where we are going to meet.

And so planting a church can absolutely start without a building.

As a church grows, you become a part of the community, in the community God's placed you.

It is helpful to have a gathering place for people to go and gather.

Yeah.

Real, real quick.

Because you mentioned how some people think the building is a waste.

I don't want to speak to that.

We've had.

I'll plug below.

We've had a roundtable talking about some of this before.

I do think it matters how you use the building.

I think a lot of times people say that because some churches are.

The church is just open two days a week.

But you know, you see churches where they use it for other place.

Our friends Will's church, what I'm a member of, has showers down below people who can't get a shower everywhere else.

We're able to use these buildings for more than just services twice a week.

So I think rather than having that conversation of oh, why are we even having buildings?

I think the more important question is what are we doing with the buildings?

So I like that you brought that up.

Yeah.

Well, and again, we.

Our name Team Church came from the idea of the biblical concept of people serving, working, living, doing things together.

But also we team up with a community.

And so our current facility is open every day of the week for Bible studies, for men's groups.

We have homeschool co ops that meet here.

Of course, we have Sunday morning, Wednesday nights, hundreds and hundreds of kids coming for Wednesday night services, Saturdays, sports ministries that reach into the community.

So there's not a day, maybe Friday afternoon, but a lot of times there's a wedding or something, a funeral going on, the building is getting used.

Yeah.

Which is great.

Yeah.

So Brother Baker, you've physically been part of building a church and are currently help building a campground.

You want to speak something to like why this conversation is important.

Yeah, actually I've done 24 church projects.

I was a general contractor for 32 years as part of my ministry.

And I've done 24 church projects in the U.S. been part of over 70 in Peru, have 18 projects going presently in Peru where I oversee a mission outreach.

And I have personally seen a dear friend of mine abandoned his physical building church building 30 years ago and moved his congregation into his house.

And he's very Very happy.

And he has the same 22, 25 people in his house 30 years later as, as he incorporated whenever he left the building.

Building is not necessary.

I love in Peru, they do not call the building the church, they call the building the temple.

But when they speak of the congregation of members, the saints, they call that the church.

And I'm pretty crazy about that concept.

But at the building, you know, you can have a wedding, you can have a funeral, you can set up all sorts of ministries, counselings, etc.

It is true for most churches in America.

It's the least used real estate anywhere in the US but it doesn't have to be.

I love the things that you guys have been saying.

So, yeah, I have spent my adult life and this is part of my ministry.

It's never was my occupation helping small churches and churches that just weren't financially prepared to build a building, but they had a heart for it and come alongside beside them and help them in the project.

I did retire my contractor's license last year, but I continue to do a lot of consulting and as you say, building 170 acre camp for children up in the foothills of the mountain, just west of Greenville, west of Travelers Rest.

And this is so far about a 12 million dollar project.

And we're getting ready to open up the next phase which will be an additional 50 million.

So we're trusting the Lord to help us with that.

One reason I love Christian camping is when I was state administra for the Church of God of Prophecy in South Carolina, had 122 churches and in six weeks or five weeks of summer camp, we had more spiritual experiences recorded than in all 122 churches for the entire year outside of Christian camping.

Powerful ministry and I am greatly committed to continuing developing this project.

Yeah, that camping ministry, not the camp you're working on, but the same, same concept.

So we're TJ and I became friends and you know, we wouldn't be doing this podcast if it wasn't for camping ministries.

So.

Yeah, and I did.

I've been to that campground and it's been a few years at his point since then and it's pretty nice already.

Yeah, just really ambitious.

So it's going to be crazy, really.

Nice eventually when it's wrapped up.

Ken, I'm going to let you take the next question first.

When it comes to all these things like you mentioned, all those churches that you helped as consulting, contracting, all that stuff, getting it built.

Pastor Hibbert also mentioned, you know, the physical building of his Church.

How much do you think people over under spiritualize this process?

Like, when people think about it, do you think they have a pretty good idea of what happens?

Or do you think mostly people think that Brother Baker sat in the closet, prayed and the Lord fell down, you know, the whole site?

Or do you think they think you did it all yourself and you're just saying God did it.

Where do you think people lay on this?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I always try to impress upon them that, you know, we focus on building buildings, ministries, programs.

God focuses on building a people who learn to trust him.

And if he can do that quickly, that's fine.

If it takes him 40 years in a wilderness to do it, that's by.

And also his ultimate goal is to build a people who learn to trust him ultimately.

And everything that I just about everything I've ever been in Bob Building has called call for a tremendous amount of faith and also patience and obedience.

And you just, you just keep, you just keep walking, you just keep listening.

Yeah, I've had some tremendous spiritual revelations in many of these church projects.

When you are underfunded and you don't have enough help and all you have is a dream and the calling and a vision, it really becomes a spiritual journey, more so than if you were totally funded.

And I don't how people perceive this.

I guess everybody perceives it through their own lens, you know, but that's the way I perceive it.

It's God's building a people and he can do it quickly, do it, you know, if he wanted to, but he usually doesn't.

Please.

If I'm still working on you, Moses, I'm still working on you to Israel.

I'm still working on you.

Ken Bakers and been active in ministry, I guess 55 plus years.

And I have to confess, he's still working on me.

Yeah.

Yeah, me too.

Pastor.

Pastor Kenny Hibbert.

Do you.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

I think it every.

I think we are too fast.

Many, many times people are too fast to give their opinion on what is spiritual, what's not spiritual.

And I think if we, we just all focus on ourselves.

So like for our church and our churches, we have planted.

It's a very spiritual thing because it's the body of Christ in that location.

And they begin to sense, hey, our ministries are expanding.

We need a place to gather.

We've outgrown a house, we've outgrown this rented.

And so ministries can't expand.

So now we're going to pray and so they began to pray.

Lord, what do you want us to do?

Not what did the church down the street do?

Not what did the.

My, my famous podcast pastor I listened to in the book I read.

But what do you want us to do?

And then in doing that then God inspires those individual local church people to say, hey, you're gonna have to sacrificially give so that this construction or maybe the first got to buy the land.

So we were here, we started in a school, we had to buy the land first, paid off the land and then we built the first phase building, expanded all those kind of things.

So it is a spiritual thing because the people who are part of that local church, it's the ministries they feel called to have.

So not every church has a school.

Some churches do have a school.

Not every church like we right now host local homeschooling co op.

They use our facility for that.

Not every church has a sports, sports ministry.

Some churches do.

So I think we get into problems when we start pointing fingers and saying, well, that's not a spiritual aspect.

That's not a spiritual aspect, but it's like it's that body.

And there are, as Brother Baker was saying, there are people who feel very led to stay in a home.

And so it's 25 or 30 people and that's incredible.

And that's, that's what they feel led to do.

There's other people like ourselves that pretty quick we got to 100 people and 200 people and it was tear down, set up and all these kind of things like, hey, what could we do if we had our own place?

So each church is the body of Christ and each church through their leadership is going to have to then pray in doing that.

That makes it a spiritual experience to be able to say this is if it's a campground, whatever, whatever it may be, this, this is what we believe the Lord is asking us to do as we do the commissioning of the gospel, which is to reach people for Christ and lead them into full devotion, into disciples and disciples reach people, disciples make more disciples.

And if disciples are making more disciples and disciples are reach, then you're going to have ministries that can be fueled by the Holy Spirit.

So I think it's, I think it's a very spiritual thing now.

What I love, we actually just finishing up a giving campaign for our next phase.

Would it be awesome if somebody came in and said, man, the Lord told me to give you $2 million.

Boom, here you go.

We've yet to have a, have A cash cow walk in and do that.

I know churches, I'm very familiar with churches that they're much smaller than we are, had a vision and one person walked up and said, I agree with the vision of the church and here is a couple million dollars.

And they had a couple million dollars, went and bought a shopping center.

And that church is just as spiritual because one person came in and did that as my church, as our church is.

And we've never had anybody stroke any big checks.

It's all been, you know, just everybody sacrificing and giving and counting our dollars up and, and making it happen.

So I think either way can be spiritual.

It's each, you know, you look through the Book of Acts, I'm preaching through the Book of Acts now.

He looks at the Book of Acts as Paul bounces around these missionary journeys.

The churches in Philippi, churches in Galatia, the churches in Ephesus, the churches that Timothy's running, the Church of James running, they're all different.

They're all absolutely different in the city makeup, who they're reaching, how they're doing it.

So I think that's, that's the key is each church has to be by spirit led leaders and then for that community.

All right, good stuff.

Yeah.

So for this series we're gonna have a special segment and we're calling it Reality or Fantasy.

We're gonna ask everyone series of rabid questions to start off with to help us get a sense of what is reality and what is fantasy concerning how the, the sausage of church gets made.

You know, it's not really something you want to think about is how they make the sausage.

You just want to eat the sausage, you just want to go to church.

But we're talking about what's behind the church.

So we'll do each question and then you can each answer and then we'll move on and we'll just keep it.

Quick, keep it brief.

There's a lot of, there's like 14 of the questions.

So.

So you don't want us to make our, you don't want to define our answer.

We're just saying reality or what's it, reality or what?

Fantasy.

So it'll, it'll depend.

They're pretty much all like, you know, what is this have to do with it?

And you, you give a real answer, but we're not going to go super deep into the answer.

Got you like one or two sentences.

Yeah, yeah, just something brief.

So we're gonna go ahead and with what monthly expenses does a church have that many people may not think of.

Kenny Medical Insurance.

10 For staff.

Yeah.

Continuous maintenance.

All right.

What is a struggle that church leadership faces regularly that may shock some people to think about?

Kenny Church leadership struggle with or I think continued passion for the.

For the calling.

Tim.

Like managing volunteers.

Right, I get that.

What's the most interesting room in your church and how does the layout of the room serve the functionality of the room?

Kenny the room I'm sitting in right now.

So this is functions as my office during the week.

It also functions functions as kids ministry room on Sundays and Wednesdays.

It also functions as places on Sunday mornings for baptism class and new members class.

It functions as meeting place.

It functions as.

We went to camp, summer camp last week.

Took 175 high school kids a summer camp and it functioned and we all came back.

Anything that was left over at camp and stuff it got.

It's set here for a couple days until everybody came and picked it up.

So there you go, big office.

Ken, what's the most interesting room in your church and how does the layout sound?

Like Java.

Obvious answer is the auditorium, but my answer is fellowship hall.

They have so many events there.

Plus on Wednesday night that's where my young adults, my college and career age group meets.

And since I'm the leader and facilitator of that group group, it's a highlight of my week.

But we, you know, we host as a community service.

We are a polling station.

People come in to vote.

It seemed like something very, very few days go by that we'd have some events going on in our little fellowship hall.

All right, so how important is the layout of the worship area in a church building?

Kenneth, talking about the mayor auditorium worship area, I think it's pretty, pretty important and probably depending on also the style of your worship and the style of your service.

So are you having people come forward?

Are they not coming forward?

Do you have a live band?

Do you have a choir?

Are you going to use it as multi purpose or auditorium?

The whole downstairs is movable chairs and so it gets changed around all over the place.

Yep.

My auditorium is also a basketball gym.

The lines are permanent.

We just worship on them.

Ken, how important is the layout of the washing area?

I agree.

It needs to be comfortable, it needs to be accessible.

I mean everyone needs to be able to see in here.

And then as the Kenny said, it needs to facilitate your particular, particular worship and ministry needs.

All right, so for the next 10 one or two words explain who is responsible for each of the following areas at your local Church and we'll just keep going.

Kenny.

Ken ever Baker, are you asking our specific church or just in general?

Your specific church.

And then if you know there's no.

One whoever landscaping volunteers for the specifics, the everyday mowing, that kind of stuff, we hire that out.

All right, Ken, May I rehired out and then do touch up as needed.

All right.

Budgeting, executive pastor, administrative committee and mission.

Board, depending on which budget we're talking about.

Right.

Hospital visits.

At our church, the we, we are in home, we have a home team.

So people meet in homes for their individual home team.

Bible studies, people call them cell groups, whatever you want to call them, we call them home teams.

So if you are in a home team and you are in some kind of issue with hospital visit, your home team leader is responsible for that.

If it's catastrophic, then a staff pastor will come and see it.

I always tell people, if you're in the hospital and you wake up and you see me there, it's probably not good for you.

Yeah, bad time, bad time.

I love to see the pastor in the hospital, but man, that's, that's nerve wracking.

Kim.

Hospital visits, we have a seven person staff and so we handle most of it in staff.

Brother Baker has visited me in the hospital, just for the record.

Yeah, and Das died.

Yeah, that's fine.

You know, that's what it, that's what it's like weddings, funeral arrangements, if they're different, you know, you can say that.

Funeral, if it's going to be held at the church, they go through administrative pastor, executive pastor does all the details and then whatever staff member they have asked to do the wedding then does the actual, could be the funeral or wedding, the actual pastoral part of it.

Right.

It starts with our executive pastor, our lead pastor, and also our administrative pastor.

Both of those are, are almost interchangeable as far as scheduling in the beginning to process.

All right.

Theological corrections.

Theological corrections.

If it's a preaching that I did that seems to be, that needs to be corrected.

We have our, our lead team, oversight team that oversees is a, on the lead team.

If it's the youth pastor or any other pastors or whatever, then that'll be probably me.

Yeah, Same answer.

Right.

Building maintenance.

So one of our, one of the things we do here that we are very proud of is that all of our cleaning, all of our maintenance, unless it's like, you know, the roof is leaking, the air conditioner is not working, but just overall cleaning and maintenance, we have built volunteer teams and we have a large facility that is never.

We pay for no custodial or any janitorial curve services.

All.

It's all done by volunteers.

We do pay for custodial.

And as far as building maintenance, since I built the building back in the 90s, usually I'm the first source to at least see which way we're going to go.

We're going to call some of our faithful professionals or have to bring in outsiders.

But, you know, that's, that's the curse of being Superman, right?

Worship set lists.

Are you talking music?

Yeah.

So for our worship set, we have our worship pastor.

He gets my sermon titles, sermon directions a couple weeks in advance, and then he prays through and comes up with the songs we're gonna sing.

Yeah.

We have our administrative pastor.

Also is our worship leader.

And pastor Mike does marvel job coordinating music and praise teams.

Teaching Sunday morning.

I mean, the majority of teaching is myself.

We also have our student pastor will speak.

He speaks every Wednesday.

We have a very large student ministry.

So he speaks every Wednesday night to the students.

Kids, Pastor speaks to the kids.

But as far as the Sunday morning teaching, it's usually me.

And then we're, we have a very blessed.

With a couple staff members who can speak.

And then also the local Christian school here, some of the teachers and stuff come to our church.

So we, we get, we get some great teaching.

So I don't, I don't, I don't speak the month of July on Sunday mornings.

Interesting.

Our pastor is an outstanding teacher and he not only teaches when he preaches, he also does a Wednesday night Bible study.

Study.

I do a Wednesday night Bible study.

Our youth pastor and our children's ministries pastor, they, they handle teaching assignments on Sunday morning and Wednesday night.

Plus they do this in school project where they meet during the school year.

They meet like at 7:30am and they're able to do a Bible study.

And some of the middle schools and high schools, which has led to something called Project 2 4, where on the second and the fourth Sunday night, they bring all the kids in that want to come from these various schools.

And they, the kids said, we enjoy the Bible study.

We would like to have a worship environment that we can't have at school.

So that event has led to a worship event every second and fourth Sunday night.

All right.

Parking lot traffic Sunday morning.

We have a volunteer parking team and.

That comes under our usher leaders department.

All right.

Yeah, my church has never needed that.

So just, you know, don't get an accent, greeting and welcoming people.

We have a volunteer greeting, ushering, welcoming Team.

The staff person.

We always.

Staff person who oversees that.

But then it's all carried out and run by volunteers.

I oversee the ushers, and I'm also the unofficial greeter, almost like the Walmart greeting guy.

I've been around so long, I know everybody.

But then we have a greeting team that, that rotates on assignment every.

Every Sunday.

Right.

Of course.

All right, so, yeah, church is.

There's a lot.

It's complex, and that's why we're doing this series.

Yeah, some of it's pretty interesting, some of it's not interesting.

But that's also interesting to me, the parts that just aren't interesting.

Because a lot of church, especially growing up, I'm like, man, everything's super spiritual.

God just does it.

And then you're like, oh, wait a minute.

Some of the stuff just, you know, happens like normal guys.

Like, it's fine.

So sometimes, Joshua, the.

The critique of people who really don't know what they're talking about, they'll say something to the effect of man, the church, you know, they're not.

They're, they're, they're.

They're too much.

It's run like a business or it's run like, you know, something like that.

And the reality is, is that because you have, what your whole.

What your whole podcast is.

Because you have a facility.

Yeah.

You.

You have to.

Somebody's got to clean the toilets.

Somebody has to make sure the toilet has water going into it.

Somebody has to make sure the parking lot is empty and open.

If the roofs is leaking and you have air conditioning.

I mean, there's an aspect that the functionality of the church is not just people rolling in on Sunday morning and listening to great music and good teaching and having kids ministry like it.

You do have to have an organization to it because there's.

You have to pay insurance, there's sometimes a mortgage, there's electric bill and heating bill and water bill, and there's leaks.

And as Brother Baker was saying, things break, you gotta fix them.

So it's the, it's usually the uneducated person who chimes in about how the church is too much.

The church shouldn't function like a business, which of course, missional.

Of course that's true.

But it's, It's a facility that has maintenance.

It has to be taken care of.

Yeah.

And I, I will just add to that briefly.

I also do know churches who do not have the people and don't really need to have yard work done or, you know, maintenance for, like, the restrooms.

And stuff who still pay someone to do it because they find somebody who needs a job.

Yep.

And that is still a ministry, even though it might not always sound like one.

So just throwing that out.

But I do want to ask you guys, if you kind of unpack for us, like, what first motivated you guys to take on like building a church or planting projects, this kind of stuff.

I know Brother Baker contracted a lot, but you built the church that, you know, I largely grew up in, my parents still go to.

What was it that originally motivated you?

Was it like an unexpected calling of God or was it more just like you're practically thinking of what your congregation needed and just kind of made it happen?

Like David saw Goliath, you know, he just kind of.

This Goliath guy is kind of getting away here.

Joshua, to understand you're talking about there's a calling to plant the church.

So.

Yeah, just saying, like whenever you first called a church planet, if it was like a practical thing or.

And then if it actually works, like, oh, it actually worked.

People are coming and people are being discipled and they're bringing their friends who are coming to Christ and they're being discipled.

They're bringing their kids who need to be.

So the calling is to plant a church and the be the local church in the community and then if it works, you know, because back when we were planting churches, there was still about only 7% of church plants were making it past the two or three year part.

So if you make it past that and then you feel like in your community the best way to reach your people, the best way to disciple your people, to evangelize the city, town, whatever you're in, is a physical building.

I think the Lord inspires you to do that.

And so you, it's, it's, it's always a leadership with the Holy Spirit.

What are we being called to do?

And so again, if a church pastor feels like that he's planted a church, he's meeting in his home and every.

He's doing everything he's called to do and it can happen in his living room, then that's what he needs to do.

For us it was, people are growing, churches growing, more people are coming in.

We go to two services.

And then we started having people saying, hey, what do you, what, what can you do for our kids?

What can you do for our student ministries or something we can do during the week and all of a sudden renting out the Regal Cinemas or renting out Butler High School, you could only do it on Sunday.

Morning.

So at some point the facility become facility informs ministry.

So what inspired you?

What, what was your calling to.

To the church planting and church building?

My personal.

So I was a student pastor.

I went to college, Bible college.

So as I was a youth pastor, I was became the youth pastor of a church plant.

And in doing that, I just kind of felt the whisper of the Lord.

Hey, one day, one day you've got some, you know, you've got a calling to plant a church.

So went to seminary, was a youth pastor, went to California, which was.

I was the youth pastor at a church that was only three years old.

And my wife and I, by the time we're married, we started praying through.

Lord, you like you want us to plant a church?

To go into a community and plant a different style church that would reach people like my friends who had either never gone to church or had been turned off by the church of their youth.

And missions and ministry just wasn't happening.

And they were falling away from church.

Kids had gone to youth group and then never gone back to church.

So we had a calling wife to plant a church like that and literally just started.

We could move anywhere in the country we wanted to go.

Kind of started praying through it and just kind of started praying really, and just narrowed down cities and went and visited cities.

Where's the Lord leading?

I had never been to Charlotte, had never lived in Charlotte, didn't know one soul in Charlotte, and thought the Lord led us to plan a church.

All right, and what about you, brother Baker?

What was that like for you?

Well, I was senior pastor at four different churches, besides being administrator.

And every one I either build or remodeled because there was a need.

But in Rock Hill, it was a calling.

There was a definite calling.

We had a piece of property.

We didn't have any money, but I felt definite calling to ville.

And to me, it's another facet of my ministry.

You know, like I said, I've done 24 church projects that were permitted.

I probably done 75 that didn't require permits, you know, roofing jobs, et cetera, et cetera.

But on those that required permitting, I looked at it.

I told someone, you know, they're pro bono, they're part of my ministry.

I said, I don't charge anybody to go visit in the hospital to do funerals.

It's just a part of my ministry is something that the Lord has given me the ability.

Folks ask me, you know, we have A mission store runs five days a week and we, we receive donations and we sell things and we support our mission efforts through this.

And it's full time ministry.

We've got about 13 full time employees and I'm the chairman of the mission board, so, you know, I've got my finger in every, every, everything there.

But anyway, it's something if you don't have a calling for.

I have been in rented facilities while I was building buildings and it's tough, it is tough to tear down and start back up every week.

God blessed us, but it's a tough ministry.

But like I said, everywhere I've been, sometimes it was a definite calling and sometimes it was a David and Goliath deal where I just looked at the giant and I said, is there not a cause?

Something's got to be done, somebody's got to do it and it doesn't look like anybody else is stepping up to do it.

So.

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.

So you, you mentioned the, the church in Rock Hills, Harvest Ministries, where I got married, spent a lot of my, my childhood there.

You said that was a calling for sure.

With as far as like just how things went.

Could you maybe describe for us kind of the process, what was it like receiving that calling, taking that all the way to actually making, having the building built and opening the doors?

Like, what was that process like from point A to point B?

That's a tough question in a little bit of time, but no, obviously we were in the old mill village.

We were on a dead end street.

And it wasn't dead end just on one side, it was dead end on both sides.

And how do you get on a double dead end street?

Well, it took some effort.

The building was old and community had run down.

I visited the community twice.

I'm talking door to door.

Every year I went door to door trying to minister.

But we did have 3.15 acres.

And one night, just as clear as rain, I heard the voice of the Lord say, build a new building and pay cash for it to borrow a penny.

Well, that time we had $5,000 in new building fund and that was a long way away from being able to build a new building.

But as you know, leading with my chin, as I often have done, I walked up to the pulpit in the service and I said, the Lord spoke to me and said, we're going to build a new building and pay cash for it.

And pin drop, you could have heard no amens.

I mean, we believe God, but.

Preacher, this is an awful lot, but a long story A little shorter.

God intervened.

And I've always said, what he orders, he pays for if you can trust him.

And we did a lot of sweat equity.

And we walked into it debt free.

And I felt like we were able to do it because we were just following.

You know, I will share this with you.

I don't want to be too lengthy with my answer, but you know, it's dangerous to ask me such a question.

That's what you're here for.

Well, one night, right in the middle of the building, I got my contractor's license originally so I could build that building.

I was involved in helping a lot of church projects around, but I was a guy that just handed them boards.

And I saw that we were going to build a building, couldn't afford a contractor, so I went, took the exam and got my license.

And so we started building.

And we, I'm telling you, we built on a shoestring in the prairie.

We didn't have much budget, but we had a calling.

And one night we were in the middle of the building process and I felt an attack.

I felt a supernatural attack that basically spoke and said, in my spirit, you don't know what you're doing.

You're in over your head.

You've sold the old property.

You don't have a place to do funerals and weddings.

You've led these people out.

You fall flat on your face and you're going to be a laughing stock.

And I couldn't argue with that because so much of it was true.

And as the old man that I first mentored with said, it was a couple of clocks in the morning.

And as I was sitting there beginning to feel that ominous sense of, yeah, I am in way over my head.

I've never done a project this big, and I've never, never done one where I needed so much money without a certain means of getting it.

And then another voice spoke in my spirit and said, let me ask you a question.

Whose church is this anyway?

And I said, well, it's Shoemaker.

And he says, I never ask you to build my church.

I build my church.

All I've ever asked you to do is just be willing to walk with me and do whatever I ask you to do.

And from that moment on, I made a decision.

Every morning I'd say, okay, Lord, what can I do today to help you?

This is your deal.

It's not my deal.

What can I do to help.

You made all the difference in the world.

We're labor's together with him.

And if it's his deal, it's not ours.

Because we are limited.

We are fooling ourselves to think we can do anything.

But when it's his deal and we're just showing up for duty, what do you want want me to do today?

It changes the whole dynamic.

Yeah, yeah, good stuff.

Pastor Hibbert, same question.

You talked about this a little bit already, but you had the call to build a church in Charlotte.

Now we got team Church in Matthews and all the other ones.

But from the moment you had that call to the moment that the first building got made, what was that process like for you?

I mean, I think you start the church and you believe that Lord has called you to do it.

And like I said before, you know, Brother Baker and I have been very fortunate.

I can tell he is a good guy and church has been successful.

But the statistics when we were planting our church was still 90% of churches made, 92% churches.

I thought the people were just as educated as I was.

Probably better speakers than I was, probably going to be more spiritual than I was.

And for whatever reason, they're calling too, didn't work.

You know, they're calling to go play.

I don't know why, but statistics are a little bit better now for church plants.

I taught the class there at Javille.

It's like 90% of churches never make it past five years.

So you go into the first couple of years, you're not even thinking about building.

You're just trying to reach people, disciple people, build ministries, do the mission.

And you are just loaded down with people and people challenges and, and discipleship and changing the community I cast up.

So I think that's your first call.

And I think if somebody goes into a church plant and they feel like the most important thing is get a building, they're probably going to struggle because people, people are way more important than the building.

And so once the calling of.

So once the church started growing, then I felt like the Lord was then saying, hey, now is the time to become a permanent fixture in the community.

And to do that, you're going to, I'm going to lead you to, as Brother Baker said, I'm going to build it.

But you're, you're the person leading it, so you got to lead the people, cast a vision.

And so, yeah, I had a pretty confident Sense of calling that the Lord was in that once we had, you know, once we were a couple years into it, to the actual church of the people and to, to build the building.

And again you, you stand up in front of people and you're asking them to give money, you're asking them to walk in faith, you're asking them to sacrifice.

We've yet to have anybody in any of our buying lands, building projects.

No one's just walked in and said, hey, I'll cover half of it or I'll cover a large portion of it.

It has been nickels and dimes and just everybody dying.

And so we had, over the years, we've had people not put, not put additions on their house.

We've had people not buy new cars.

We've had people not buy coffee three days a week so they could put the money.

I mean, just, there's all kinds of ways you can, you know, divert your funds.

And so when you're, when you're asking people to do that, you're asking them to do something biblical, but you're still, you're still asking them.

And so you, you better, you better be really confident that the Lord is in it.

And the last thing, I didn't coin this phrase, but I don't, I don't know who did.

So I always just take credit for it.

But of course, a church planter, A church planter, a person who is vision led.

You have to feel comfortable.

Especially when do a building camp campaign.

You have to feel comfortable building the plane while you're flying it.

The people who have to have the plane designed and already completely done, all the seats, all the.

Before they'll get it and start flying it.

A church planter, a person who's moving in vision.

You literally are building a plane.

Why you're flying it.

Yeah, I mean, I like that analogy.

It works because, you know, if you, if you just fret over every little thing, by the time you're done with that building, it was to say what, yeah, church looks like.

Yeah.

So what fruit do you think came out of doing things the way that you did with these buildings?

And is there anything you would have done differently?

I'll go for you first.

Really?

Yeah.

I think the, I mean, I, I would think that one of the big fruit we always called ours, we never called our stuff building campaigns.

We called them stewardship campaigns.

And so one of the fruit is.

People learn to sacrifice.

They learn to give sacrificially over and above what they would normally give to the budgeting of the ministries, they're not going to give to a building.

So there's a, there's an idea of stewardship that comes from that, where people begin to see themselves.

They're not owners, they're stewards.

And the Lord's giving you that, that skill set.

He's giving you that passion.

He allowed you to have that education, to get that job.

And so everything we have in our life, our gifts, our homes, our cars, our money, our resources, our time, we are stewards, not owners.

And that's a huge aspect of discipleship.

When people begin to see what they have as a, they're a steward of it, they're not an owner.

Right.

And what about you, Brother Bakery?

Oh, I agree with him 100%.

What I think that to the ones I've been most intimately involved with as far as in conversation, in building, actually building, is that as I said earlier, God's trying to build a people in the way that we followed him in obedience.

Our folks learned to trust him.

Josh knows that the heartbeat of Harvest is missions.

We are a mission minded church.

One reason is we didn't have to spend a whole lot of money.

We didn't spend any money on mortgages.

We put it all in mission.

And the Lord I think realized our heart and just blessed and blessed and blessed.

Aware, you know, we are able to do more for missions than we had ever dreamed would be possible.

But it is because the folks just developed a tremendous sense of ministry and trust process that we went through.

Yeah.

And yeah, we are, we are not owners, we are stewards.

People ask me when I left Harvest in 98, went to Greenville, folks said when you ride by the church, do you think that's your legacy?

I said, oh no, my legacy is those children that grew up in my home.

My son that carries my name, my daughter.

That's my legacy.

That that church is the Lord's had never belonged to me, has very little to do with me.

He could raise up a rock to praise him and he could raise up some other old stubborn preacher to come in and do his work.

And we just, we just trust him and love him and try to help other people do the same.

Yeah, yeah, this is going to be, well, a little bit of a side tangent I guess sidebar something.

But you mentioned just driving by the church and I think about, we had civil sister Sylvia Staton on the podcast like years ago and like at the end we always ask for practical action and you know, great way for church unity.

Anytime you drive By a church, Methodist, Episcopal, whatever.

Just pray for them.

I've done that like every time, every single time since.

And it just, it does make such a huge difference.

It's crazy.

So anytime someone talks about driving by a church, it just, I don't know, stirs up in me.

It was just some random thing that Sister Sylvia probably doesn't even remember saying.

But it got me, she got me with that one.

Yeah, I love her.

Yeah.

But, but is there anything you guys.

And I'll start with Brother Baker then.

Do you think our listeners might want to know more about you or the churches you helped build or anything before we start getting near wrapping this up?

Oh, God, I. I can't think of anything they'd want to know about me.

As always.

You know, Ms. Curry was one of my first mentors.

He was old time, old time preacher and he used to have this saying, if I don't do anything but drive one nail in the wall whenever I'm pastoring, he said, I hope it's a nail the next pastor can hang his hat on.

In other words, I want my work to last, but not with my name on it.

I want my work to last.

I want someone to be able to pick up and then go a little bit further, a little bit deeper, a little bit wider.

I just want.

I told someone, I refuse to live.

I'm 73.

I know I don't look it, but I refuse to leave this planet not having done something that'll matter during eternity.

I'm just not going to breathe God's good air and drink his good water and not give everything I've got.

It's been my goal to, to wear out about, you know, I want to work until my last breath.

And I'm getting closer, but I'm going to be spend and be spent.

And it's an honor, Brother Kenny.

I'd love to meet with you and have a cup of coffee someday.

Certainly.

Is I in Kissimmee, Florida back in the late 70s.

And yes, there was a late 70s for you children here.

I began laying foundations for planting a church in Kissimmee.

Kissimmee was not the city that it is now.

It was more, more of a cowboy town.

And I went through all the way up to getting a building ready to rent.

But the Lord called me to an intermediate church in Columbia, South Carolina, and I never had that privilege.

I have helped plant six Hispanic churches in South Carolina.

And I told you about the churches in Peru that I've been involved with personally.

Feeding centers, schools.

We Built several schools, we built feeding centers, we built churches.

We take care of medical needs, physical needs.

It's just amazing.

God is so good that he would take a mill village boy like me and let me be part, just a little part of what he's doing on this planet.

I am blown away by the goodness of the Lord.

And, you know, we're here on this podcast.

It's all about him.

It's every bit about me.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Yeah, Good stuff.

Good stuff.

Amen.

Pastor Kenny, hate to ask you follow up, but.

Yeah.

Anything else you think that maybe our listeners would like to know about you or any of the churches you helped build?

I think, you know, again, for me personally, I don't think that they need to know anything, but I think one of the things, if people are listening this, maybe they feel called in the ministry, maybe they're part of a church that is trying to grow and reach their community and impact their community.

So, as Brother Baker was just saying, I think the.

What I would want people to know is that I felt the call in the ministry when I was a senior in high school.

I was 17 years old, and my prayer was always that I wanted to use my one and only life to make an impact and do what God's.

Told me to do.

And we have raised up.

So we're in our 28th year here at the church one church, 28 years, and we have raised up a bunch of people that have also caught that vision and been discipled, and they want to use their one life.

And so I would encourage people two things.

You know, we're very.

We love the fact that from our church we've planted seven churches.

One of the things I love about it is that our staff has always been very close.

And so the churches that we have planted, the last three churches we have planted, have actually just been our former youth pastors.

And so we've got two churches now in.

In Florida that are church plants.

We have church.

And I'm heading out and I'm heading to Montana next week to Missoula to preach for Brad there.

But so our last three churches have all been our former student pastors who love the church, love the vision, and said, hey, and if you'll support me, which we do like Brother Baker does, we put.

We give a lot of money to missions and church planting.

And so our former youth pastors are now our last three church plants.

And that's been something that I think has been very unique to our church.

And we don't do the campus model we don't have, which everybody's got to do their own thing.

So we don't have a campus model where there's six or seven campuses spread around Charlotte or whatever that all.

Listen to me, when we plant a church, we plant a church that's going to go in that community, the pastor is going to be in that community and they're going to grow, grow and reach people.

So yeah, that's the thing that I want people to know about our church is it truly is team church.

We believe in teaming up with the gospel, teaming up with people.

And it's been the pleasure of my life now, going on 28 years in one place to see the amount of students have come through here that are now in full time ministry.

And then the church we've planted out of our church and the ministries of course are happening here in Matthews.

But I think that's, that's, I think that's the part that a lot of people, when they see churches that are maybe growing and planting other churches, they, they, they don't understand the, the heartbeat behind it, which is these are people who are moving to Missoula, Montana, they're moving to St. Petersburg, Florida.

And you know, we could do a lot of other things with our one and only life, but we've chosen to be God's instrument and that's what it would take.

Get me in Montana.

I tell you what, brother, if you haven't, T.J. if you haven't been there.

They say in Missoula, in Montana, but people, Missoula, we've, our church is now five years old there.

The first time I went out there, I was like, this is incredible.

During the summer and they're like, it's magical.

It literally.

There's no humidity in Missoula, Montana.

Next, next I'll be there.

I'm going to speak three Sundays in a row and I will wake up and in the morning, probably put a light sweat sweater, sweatshirt on.

It's, you know, 85, 87 degrees by 4 or 5 o' clock in the afternoon.

Zero humidity.

There's no, there's no clouds.

It's, it's, it is magical.

It's unbelievable.

That does sound.

I can't wait to get out of this humidity in this heat.

Yeah, we're kind of good.

We're all, you know, some of our, our audience isn't all in, you know, South North Carolina.

We're going through it.

It's like 90 degrees outside, 90% humidity.

I almost swam to work the other day.

I don't know where you, I don't know where you always.

Degrees do.

We were at church.

After church on Sunday, I got in my car and drove to meet my parents for lunch.

And it was 102.

Yeah, yeah.

It's 90 right now.

My parents went to St. Augustine, Florida for 4th of July, and it was cooler there than it is here.

Absolutely.

And that made me angry.

Yeah.

But, yeah, yeah, it kind of stinks right now.

But if you had to put it into one or two sentences, what has being a part of the construction of these places of worship meant to you?

Privilege of a lifetime or were you, Brother Baker?

I, I agree 100%.

Plus, brother Kenny, I'll invite you to go to Amazon with me and find out what humidity really is for that Amazon river for three or four days.

Yeah, yeah, no, I bet.

Great privilege.

And again, you know, I was raised in Lancaster, little mill village town.

My parents were sharecroppers, and I never dreamed that the Lord would, would let me be in a heartbeat of so many things that he's doing.

It blows my mind.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

Good notes, good notes.

To start getting near the end here.

Before we wrap up, we do like to ask everybody who comes on the show, even if they've been on multiple times, I always like to ask if you could give our audience something practical, tangible that they could do like, or as soon as this ends, they'll help better engender church unity.

Pastor Kenny Hibbard, what's something practical you think our listeners could stop and do when this show's over that's going to help help with the greater church unity?

Well, you're not gonna like my answer.

Just kidding.

I, I like podcasts, I like social media.

I like all the videos and all that kind of stuff.

So that's good.

We can learn from it, which hopefully people are learning.

But I think the average person, having grown up in a church.

Brother Baker, I'm 55 years old, so I'm not as, I'm not as, I'm not as, not as ancient as you are, of course, but I, I, I've lived a life and, you know, uh, my little Baptist church in Floral City, Florida, which is not too far from Kissimmee near Inverness and Ocala, my little Baptist church, they, those people there didn't compare themselves to anybody because there was no social media to compare them to.

So I think unity begins.

His little phrase, it's unfair to compare.

It's unfair to compare.

And much of the church disunity comes from people sitting in the pews sitting in the chairs, comparing their pastor, their church, their ministries, their music to their favorite podcast pastor, Their, their big, you know, the person they're listening to.

And I think that that, that drives disunity because their individual church, because becomes.

This is.

Becomes has a.

Is not unified in their individual church because it doesn't matter what the size is.

You've got multiple people comparing their pastor, comparing their church, comparing their ministries to something they see online or some, some podcast or some tick tock.

Yeah.

And that's, you know what Teddy Roosevelt comparison is.

The thief of joy.

Yep.

Yeah.

That's why TJ won't let me have a church unity competition with the other podcast.

Yeah.

He tells me it doesn't make sense to have unity competitions or something.

I don't know.

It doesn't.

Closest you can get is tug of war.

So we set up tug of war with, with the unity podcast guys.

Well, yeah, yeah, I'll leave.

Perfect.

Yeah.

But Brother Baker, same question.

What's something practical people could do right now when the show ends that would help them better engender larger Christian community?

I love what you said Sylvia said about you ride by a church, you pray for it.

I think personally, I always try to find out how I can, how I can support and help.

They're doing the work of the gospel and they need some, they need some help.

I like to go along beside them and help them.

Now through our mission store, we get tremendous opportunities to meet pastors and leaders.

And it just, it's just a tremendous, tremendous blessing to be able to come along beside them and say, what can I do?

How can I help you?

When we went into harvest, we weren't a large congregation, but we had a.

We, we had this philosophy of ministry.

If somebody is doing it and they're doing it well, we won't compete.

We'll help them.

If there is a need that no one is doing, then we will begin to pray actively.

Lord, do you want us to do this?

So we have partnered all over our community with some tremendous ministries.

Doesn't have to have our name on it.

Doesn't have to have a plaque.

Black.

Doesn't have to even mention our name.

If they're doing work of the Lord, if they're reaching, ministering, loving, and we can help them.

We want to help them and be a part of what they're doing.

And if they're not doing it, then we pray about should we be doing it.

Yeah.

So if everyone listened to you, Brother Baker, like they should, what would change in the world?

What do we see change in, in real life?

Oh man, they would be, I think it'd be a lot sweeter.

I think it'd be a lot more love.

I think to be a greater witness to the overall non believing world.

You know, the non believing world looks at us and they say, hey, if this, this, this is true, why there's so much competition, why so many different churches?

And you know, we all have our, you know, our, our particular belief system.

But man, if we work together, love together, what a tremendous witness to a world that doesn't know Christ.

Amen.

And for you, Pastor Hibbard, what changes if we stop the comparison?

You stop the comparison.

I think we all of a sudden you find the joy, then also know there's a lot of things I would want people to fail to listen to.

But on that specific thing, what I always tell people is you be all God's created you to be and you be the best God's created you to be.

If you do that, then not only are you completing the mission he has for you, you're doing it in a passionate, compassionate and joyful way.

And that, and then you could stop kind of with the comparison or, and have unity because I'm quite certain that all three of you have a lot of differences from me, but you don't.

You're not called to be me.

I'm not called to be you, but I'm called to be the best I can be.

I'm called to be all that God's created me to be.

He hasn't created me to be the best speaker yet and created me to be the best church planter.

He hasn't created me to be what he's created me to be.

To be as best I can it as I.

When I'm working with my own kids who are athletes, I'm working with other athletes through Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

I tell them all the time, most likely there's always going to be somebody a little faster than you, somebody a little bigger than you.

And if you are always, your joy is always based on are you the fastest, the strongest, or whatever, you're going to always be disappointed.

But if you're doing the best that you can be, if you're being all God's created you to be, then you're going to be able to enjoy the life that he's has positioned for you,.

Which is extremely important.

So before we really start to wrap it up here, we do like to ask everyone one more thing.

And some people think it's the most important question that we do ask, but we ask everyone share a moment where they saw God recently in their lives, whether it be a blessing or a challenge or a mode of worship or whatever that case may be.

I always ask Josh to go first.

And it's not really a request, but it gives the rest of us enough time to think.

So, Josh, do you have a gobble moment for us this week?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I had to close my store, which is great.

I get to say that, too.

That's kind of fun.

But I got.

I had to close my store the other day, and I'm new to this particular store in the franchise that I'm at, so not everybody knows each other super well yet, but we know each other.

Ish.

Any store's closing out.

Chuck comes in a little early to start unpacking stuff.

So we all are just kind of like having to wait.

And I don't know how the conversation started, but one of the girls were like, hey, why do all the churches hate U.S. catholics?

What is it about U.S. catholics that they just hate?

And I was like, hey, I actually do a whole church unity podcast, and we've had Catholics on before.

We've talked about this, if you want to check it out.

You know, I can't get too into spiritual stuff at work, but, you know, if you want to do that, whatever.

And it was so funny.

I found out some of my other workers to Lutheran churches like mine, one of the others were like, oh, hey, my husband grew up Pentecostal, so we believe this.

And, like, they didn't get into beliefs or stuff, but it was just like, hey, yeah, we don't hate you.

And it was just kind of a cool moment of like, hey, here was a little bit of church unity.

We didn't get into theology.

It was just people going, hey, wait a minute.

We don't actually hate you.

You know, so those are pretty.

Pretty good.

Moment.

What's your God moment?

My grandma had surgery for her cancer, and it is now in remission.

Take that.

Oh.

So, yeah, actually kind of experimental proton therapy thing that they got going on.

It's the same way they treated my grandpa.

Interesting.

So super cool, super effective, minimally invasive and.

And really cool.

Modern medicine is just so crazy.

Yeah.

So thank God that we're able to be in a position where that kind of thing is possible.

But that.

That's mine.

So who wants to go first?

I'll go first.

All right.

Yeah.

My God moment.

So we just got back last week from summer camp.

We go to the summer camp now for the last 14 years, same summer camp up in Flat Rock, North Carolina.

Fast forward 10 years, we're still going there.

And he had asked, he said hey, can I have been back to camp, be a part of it.

Asked the Chris to worship past.

He's like I'll come and play.

Love to be there.

He also, he's married now, has my brand new seven month old grandbaby and so he wanted to know if he could come play.

So my God moment was the same camp that he went to as a kid.

He was there, came back as a 28 year old with his wife and our grandbaby and you know, he was playing and the fact that he, so he, he's he's a naval special operations rescue swimmer so he kind of comes and goes and does stuff.

So he used, he used some of his baby time off to do it.

And so watching, watching my older son playing in the worship band back at the same camp he went to while I was holding my grands, my grandbaby, that was, that was pretty cool.

Yeah.

Which is.

I'm looking forward to the same feeling hopefully one day because that campus where I met Josh and probably brother Baker, very less so.

What was it?

What year did you graduate high school?

Okay.

Been a minute but not, not as long as, as you guys, I guess.

Feels like it's been a long time for me.

All right.

I mean.

Yeah, yeah.

Not quite half my life.

Right.

19.

1970 For me, that was the year I was born.

1970S are my favorite decade to visit at Disney's Pop Century Resort.

Not sponsoring us yet, but just letting you guys know, see how good I'd be at plugging that.

Come on, dude.

Yeah, yeah, we're going to get that at Disney.

Disney sponsorship for sure.

So brother Baker, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Yeah, there's so many.

The cat project that I'm working on now we're, we're building the lake project, which cafeteria and chapel on poles on the lake.

And it's been quite a challenge in construction and we lost our primary framing crew and we brought in another crew that was not as, not as skilled and so we ran into some problems and our number one corporate donor sent his framing expert they called the pit bull.

That's his dick name.

The pit bull came in and heads are going to roll and we're going to get this thing straightened out.

And so when I went to the site, they said, oh, you better walk off the pit bulls on the campus today.

And so I walked out.

And we walked out on the floor of the new chapel under construction, and he started telling me what we're going to do and how we're going to do.

And so.

So I stopped and I said, let me ask you a question.

He said, what's that?

I said, do you know Jesus?

He said, what?

I said, do you know Jesus?

He said, well, I was raised in x certain amount of church and I went to, you know, the classes and I took all this, that and the other.

He said, but a few years ago, I went to a church in Texas and I found myself in the altar and this pit bull began to weep.

And in two hours, I talked to him at least seven times.

He broke down tears as I think we had seven godmothers there on that project.

And I put my arm on his shoulder.

And I've told this story so many times to so many people who had come to work on the project, both volunteers and folks we paid dearly for told them, as I've been working on this project for many, many years.

I built the first seven cabins myself, was project manager on the next two large projects, am liaison and authorized representative on these large projects now.

And Thomas, I've been working for years and years and years and there again as part of my ministry.

And as I looked at the pit bull, had my hand on his shoulder, I said, but let me tell you something.

The first child that walks the aisle, bends their knee and gives their heart to Jesus.

I am paid in full for every minute and every mile.

And I could feel the presence of the Lord.

And I saw the pit bull melt in that moment, that instant.

So it was a good day.

And those cats are great.

I like those kids.

That's why you all go last, actually, because they all say stuff like that.

That's why we have to do this every week, man.

We run out.

But please consider sharing this episode with a friend.

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Especially your cousins.

Especially your cousins.

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Now, one of our shirts that I do like a lot actually, that isn't the shirt TJ quote on the back.

It's called Fractured Church.

We have to, we have to look this up every time.

Yeah, that's, that's not right.

I think it's like a diverse church.

I think it is.

Diverse church, diverse shirt.

Check that shirt out.

It's a, it's a fun one to wear.

It's really cool.

It's got a word bubble church on the back.

And then check out the awesome podcast network.

Yeah, he shows like My Seminary Life, the Brandon Knight Kung Fu Pizza party with Brandon Knight.

I just wanted to keep naming Brandon Knight for some reason.

Let nothing move you, Christian Ashley.

That's a good one.

That's not Brandon Knight.

But he's on it sometimes.

He was on sometimes.

Yeah.

So we do hope you enjoyed it.

Coming up, we'll be talking with Will Burton Edwards of Cornell Zimmer Organ Builders to discuss the process of building organs for our local churches.

We, you know, us Pentecostal folk, we don't really get to do that, so that's going to be fun.

After that, we're going to plan to have representatives from the Church of God Prophecy and the AME Zion Church to discuss the behind the scenes of how denominations function.

And then we'll be take talking with an esteemed guest about the building of church pews.

Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan's going to be on the show.

Maybe he doesn't know, though someone does have to tell him.

Yeah, no one's about.

But then it, then it'll happen for sure.

For sure.

Yeah, definitely.

Sam.