The upcoming sabbatical of Pastor Will Rose serves as a focal point for this engaging dialogue on The Whole Church Podcast, wherein we explore the profound significance of rest within the Church and its potential to facilitate greater unity among congregations. In our conversation, we delve into the biblical and theological underpinnings of sabbaticals, drawing connections to the restorative nature of rest as exemplified in the scriptures. Will articulates how intentional cycles of rest not only rejuvenate the individual pastor but also empower the congregation to cultivate a shared responsibility for the church community. Through this insightful discourse, we seek to illuminate the necessity of relinquishing control and embracing communal support, thereby fostering a more resilient and unified Church. Join us as we reflect on the transformative power of rest and its implications for the broader Christian community.

In this enlightening episode of The Whole Church Podcast, Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell engage in a profound dialogue with Pastor Will Rose, focusing on the critical theme of rest within the church context, particularly as Pastor Rose prepares for his upcoming sabbatical. The conversation is steeped in theological reflections on Psalm 127, which emphasizes reliance on divine providence over human toil. Pastor Rose articulates the significance of embracing cycles of rest, not only for individual pastors but for the entire church community, suggesting that such practices can cultivate a deeper sense of unity and collaboration among congregants.

The discussion delves into the historical and scriptural foundations of sabbaticals, exploring their role as restorative periods that allow pastors to recharge and reflect. Pastor Rose highlights how these moments of intentional rest are vital for preventing burnout and fostering a healthy church environment. He asserts that when pastors are renewed, they can return to their congregations with fresh perspectives and renewed energy, ultimately benefiting the church's mission. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own experiences with rest and to consider how implementing structured periods of sabbatical could transform their church dynamics.

The episode serves as a compelling reminder of the importance of integrating rest into the life of the church, advocating for a culture that prioritizes well-being and collective flourishing. It challenges the notion that constant busyness equates to productivity, instead positing that true effectiveness in ministry stems from a place of rest and rejuvenation.

Takeaways:

• Pastor Will Rose discusses the significance of sabbaticals in ministry, emphasizing their role in personal renewal and church vitality.
• The concept of Sabbath, rooted in the biblical tradition, highlights the importance of rest for both individuals and congregations alike.
• The conversation explores how cycles of rest contribute to fostering unity within the church community, allowing members to recharge spiritually.
• Pastor Rose articulates the need for churches to embrace rest as an intentional practice, countering the modern culture of constant productivity.

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You can leave a donation, buy podcast merchandise, check out previous series that we've done, or become an official member of The Whole Church Podcast on our website:

https://the-whole-church-podcast-shop.fourthwall.com/

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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network and find merch to support some of your favorite podcasts on the network's website:

https://anazao-podcasts-shop.fourthwall.com/

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Hear more from Will on "Your Matter Matters":

https://your-matter-matters.captivate.fm/listen

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Check out TJ on Systematic Geekology:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/f4c32709-d8ff-4cef-8dfd-5775275c3c5e

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Hear more from Joshua on Be Living Water:

https://be-living-water.captivate.fm/listen

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Be sure to come out and meet Joshua, TJ, and Will at Theology Beer Camp 2026 in Kansas City:

https://theologybeer.camp/

Psalm 127, verses 1 and 2 in the New Jerusalem Bible. If Yahweh does not build a house, in vain, do its builders toil? If Yahweh does not guard a city in vain, does its guards keep watch in vain?

Do you get up earlier and put off going to bed sweating to make a living, since it is he who provides for his beloved as they sleep? Psalm 127 is a wisdom psalm. It's attributed to King Solomon, the wisest man to ever live.

In this psalm, King Solomon sings of the importance of revelation, relying on God rather than overworking. Then he goes on to sing about the blessings of having children in the same song.

Pastor Will Rose why do you think this altar sings in parallel the need to rely on God and the blessings of children in this song?

When you first read that, I was thinking I kind of went to the word vain. What's vain or not doing things in vain? And are you doing it just for yourself or for others? Is, is God a part of your work and toil?

And I think family could attached to. To that as well as you think about, you know, why do I have a family? Is it just, I don't know. That could be in vain if it's all selfish.

But like what? How can God be a part of your family? How could God be a part of your work, part of your life, your relationships that you're entangled with Joshua?

Those are some of the things that come to mind when you, when you, when you read that. So.

So yeah, I'm not quite sure I understand in terms of relying on God and the blessing of children, but I think it's talking about relationships you're in relationship with, whether it's your work, vacation, the people you work with, and your family as you have your, your partners and team together. Hopefully God's a part of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm a fill listeners in.

Sometimes I write these questions as softballs because I'm like, oh, this will be a good way to start the episode because it's totally important for us. And then sometimes stuff like today happens and it's a genuine question because I start looking into the song like why did he do that?

And I happened to be talking to my pastor and I'm like, well, might as well ask him on the podcast. Why is this the thing? So you guys got to be insight inside. Look at that.

Hey guys, welcome to the whole Church podcast, possibly your favorite church unity podcast. It's totally cool. If it's not though, we're not in competition with other church unity podcasts. Because once again that's just self defeatist.

Like what? Huh? Why would.

Doesn't make sense.

Yeah. But I am really excited for today's episode. I'm Joshua Noel. I'm here with the co host with the absolute most. I'm the one with the co most.

The absolute most goes to Pod Almighty, the one and only T.J. tiberius Juan Blackwell. Welcome to your show.

Thanks.

Yeah. And we're here with a return guest I mentioned already, my pastor, dear friend, Pastor Will Rose.

We're going to be talking about his upcoming sabbatical. Why it makes me sad because I'm going to see his face slightly less and hear his voice less unless he calls me. I don't know.

But we're going to be talking about his sabbatical. How seasons of rest can help our in our efforts to pursue greater church unity and some other stu.

Some other stuff.

Yeah, stuff you know.

But if you don't know Will the thrill from Chapel Hill Rose. He is the pastor of Holy Trinity Youth Lutheran Church in Chapel Hill, N.C. is also one of the hosts on systematic ecology.

He has your matter matters. Big guy, busy guy. His homies are available in podcast format as well. On the show the homily with Pastor Chill, Will from Chapel Hill.

Will is also the author of I sure am gonna miss that Guy and is a good friend of ours and a frequent wood turn guest. So yeah, thanks.

I did the tips.

If you don't know, go with purchase one of our T shirts. It helps promote the show. It raises money for podcasting needs.

It gets others to know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church. I have a favorite. I'm not quiet about it. At least not more quiet than everything else. It's the TJ quote on the back. It says nothing.

It says nothing on the back.

It's great.

Super understated, wonderful. Super comfy. You should check out the Onazel podcast network website link is below. For other shows like ours and like all of Will shows are on there.

Yeah.

So far.

So far.

True story. True story.

Yeah. Because he's my pastor in any way that I can serve him, I will try to. And not because of any umbrella analogy.

Just because I love him, you know, it's a good guy. And if you love him, that is all podcast website.

Down below in the show's description, you can buy all kinds of T shirts for different stuff that Will's on, including the your matter matter stuff. The design's awesome. Our good friend Taylor Thomas in that. So supporting him. Get the shirts. Support Will. It's a good time. Yeah.

Also, I have a favorite form of unity. It's a holy sacrament. We do here on the Whole Church podcast. How else do you experience the divine if you're not being divinely silly?

So today you can't be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be. We're going to be talking about something silly. I'm going to do a silly question. If you could choose either. Oh, this is a good one.

To surf on lava under the sea, on, like, undersea currents or in the sky. Which would you rather surf on? TJ and I answer first. Give Will time to think about it.

But I'm sure he's already thought of this, so I don't know why we're doing that. Tj, what are you going with?

This is really, really hard for me because I think if I would have.

Said space, it would have been too easy.

I think maybe instead of sky surfing under the water. Sounds incredible. Beautiful and incredibly impractical.

Yeah, I live pretty far away from the beach, so I. I'm gonna choose in the sky, which would also be awesome. And then I would have to get a haircut like Jim Hawkins from Treasure Planet. Just really?

That's fair. I didn't realize I gave you such an easy Treasure Planet plug.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I personally, I think that surfing in the sky is probably the correct answer. Or under the sea. I think those are actually the best options.

But I've never seen lava, so I'm gonna choose surfing on lava because I just really want to see lava. Like, I know that's stupid, but, like, I just want to see it. I don't know.

It's just not that much lava.

Yeah, I don't care. I'm gonna see it. I mean, I'll probably be on, like, an island anyway, so when I'm done, I'll just hang out at the beach, I guess. I don't know.

Yeah, I'm gonna go see some lava. I thought lava was gonna be, like, a way bigger problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The amount of times I used it in, like, map building for Smash Bros. You really thought it'd be more prevalent, but here we are. Will, where are you serving out of those three options?

Okay. Golly, I got a lot to chime in here with one, I want a new TJ Whole Church podcast shirt.

Just on the back, it says, I just thought there was going to be a lot more lava. And let that be out of context.

Yeah. Other tj quote on the back.

Lava and quicksand.

Yeah, you know, it's a lot more dangerous, but it's pretty rare. And then TJ name dropped one of my little tiny novella books that. I sure am gonna miss that guy.

That is my Holy Week and Easter homily over a few years back over the pandemic. I plan over this sabbatical to write a book, finish a book called God is a Surfer. And so this is appropriate.

Appropriate question for this particular episode and to talk about. Sabbaticals are all coming together, and it's like almost Joshua thought about it and put it all together on purpose.

I don't know if that's the case or not, but it actually was.

I think I was on my med when I made the outline.

Okay, gotcha, gotcha.

But, yeah, after watching, I'm tempted to say surf on Lava because, man, that Fantastic Four movie, we had the Silver Surfer going through space in the fire and surfing Lava and the way they drew it or put it together or Filmed it or CGI'd it or AI'd it or whatever. I was like, somebody who put this together knows what surfing looks like. The way she grabbed the rail, did her turns, I was like, man, that.

That looks really cool.

But it was really sick with one.

Of my favorite beers being cloud surfer. I think I'm gonna have to surf the clouds.

I think I'm gonna have to surf the clouds and be in the sky, be like Superman and, you know, turn real sharp and go off the lip and do some big re entries. Getting. Getting barreled and tubed inside a cloud would be just super rad. So there you go. There's my answer. Cloud.

I guess the question is, can you fly?

Or.

I don't know. I think you need a board. I'm changing.

Yeah. So if you bail, I'm changing my.

Answer, though, because Lava was cool until I knew I could hang out with Will and TJ at the same time in the sky, surfing. So now I'm like, I want to make it a group activity, so I want to be included.

And, tj, surfboards have leashes. You time to your. To your ankle. So you. So when you wipe out. Oh, yeah.

I mean, if you fall off your board in the ocean and your board goes away, you want to have that leash on so you can just pull it back to you. Don't just swim all the way to shore. So when you're in the clouds, you. I think you don't want to lose your surfboard.

I like swimming.

Yeah.

I Just don't like the leash.

Yeah, it is courteous and respectful to wear a leash even no matter how good a surfer you think you are, you're going to wipe out. You don't want your board hitting somebody else or a family that's swimming. So always wear your leash.

That's my, that's my public surfing service announcement today. TJ Wear your leash where I'm gonna tune you into the rights of beach police and get fined.

That's a good one. Okay, I will now.

It'll be the only time any of us have been, the second time any of us have been reprimanded by Will Rose. And I don't think you want that. First one was me for being too self conscious about finding money and I'm still being reprimanded for it.

So, yeah, give you a hard time forever.

So, Will, you've been on the show plenty of times. Plenty of times. We'll make a playlist with all of the Will episodes in the show description. We'll put that there.

But for those who are less familiar with you and who you are, could you unpack your history in becoming a pastor and leading the congregation in Chapel Hill?

How much time we got? Okay, here we go. Raised Lutheran in Wilmington, North Carolina by Bill and Kay Rose, lifelong churchgoer.

Baptized as an infant in the sacrament Holy baptism in the Lutheran Church. Born and raised, was kind of a punk kid. Made my Sunday school teachers cry because I was too restless and probably just cut up too much in class.

But I had a good, very patient pastors and youth directors and a nice core group of friends that best friends that I'm still best friends with today who went through Sunday school youth group together, college campus ministry and working at a summer camp, Lutheran summer camp. I was like, hey, you know what? Maybe, maybe I could be a pastor one day.

And so for 26 years I've been ordained minister in the Lutheran Church. I served a church in South Florida pocket on Florida at Advent Lutheran, was youth pastor down there.

Loved, loved my youth and youth group down there in South Florida. Went back to Columbia, South Carolina for my wife to go back to school and get a doctorate in education. So served a campus ministry there.

So I've been here for 14 years. Coming up on my second sabbatical. You do the math. 14 Divided by seven is two. So I'm coming up on my second sabbatical. I'm not good at that. That was.

There you go. And. And yeah, been. Been serving here for. For 14 years and love the congregation, love my context.

My dad went to unc, so I was born and raised Tar Heel. Fans of being here on the doorstep of North Carolina. And that's my contacts for ministry. Been a Lutheran pastor different areas.

Been a parish pastor 26 years. Some of those years were youth pastor, some of them were camp counselor, taking kids to camps, all that stuff. So, yeah, there's my. There's my story.

Nice.

Nice.

Three minutes.

Yeah, I just. Listening to what you said there.

We do Y2K, Pastor.

Yeah. Anyway, what do you. What do you know about the history of the sabbatical? I know a little bit, but not a ton.

And why do some churches have sabbaticals for their pastors and others don't? Like, is it just denomination? Is it how much money the church has? Like, what's going on with that?

Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for the whole church, capital C, but I know within my particular congregation and denomination that it's highly recommended that ministers who are. He or she are on call 24 7, seven days a week. They get some vacation time.

But, you know, you can't help that if someone dies or there's a tragedy or something happens, you be called back for vacation from your family. Cindy talks about the sabbaticals. My last sabbatical, my first one I ever had, you know, seven years ago.

She talked about how just it was nice for a summer not have to share me with anybody. You know, that there I. I'm pulled in a lot of different directions and I love it.

I love that I don't have a 9 to 5 and that my schedule is flexible and. But I am on.

On call pretty much 24, 7 with, with messages and thoughts and, and people needing things and whatever that may be, shepherding a congregation. So yeah, real quick, curious.

So when you're on your sabbatical, if I'm in your congregation, I'll use me as an example. If I drop down dead, do you still like, do the pastoral duties or does that go to somebody else?

It's like a personal thing.

I just was like, I don't know. Pastor is a weird job.

I don't. Yeah, please don't do that, Joshua. While I'll try for you, I'll try. Do your best. Do your best. Let me start. Remind me about that.

T.J. remind me about that one. Like what I would do if something happens where they.

Because I think I don't know the full history of sabbaticals, but I do know in terms of the word sabbatical. Sabbath, practicing Sabbath, the seventh day God rested, encourages God's people to rest so that you could have regenerative life giving.

Yet you're not so tied to your work that you're working all the time. You get burned out. So built into the fabric of creation is this idea of Sabbath and rest.

And so that should be a practice whether it's Sunday or another day.

Have some time for yourself to read, reflect, catch your breath, literally rest, do a hobby, something that's not work related, vocational related, so that you're not. So you don't burn out. And who knows what that could look like.

So I think built in the fabric of creation itself is this idea of Sabbath, weekly Sabbath, there's vacations, that kind of thing. Eventually you get to sabbaticals.

And I think it comes out of the academic world where professors and teachers are given sabbatical so that they can continue their research, they can do continuing education, they can write a book, they're doing research and say we're writing a book and they're going class on it. So that gives them extra time, separate, intentional time to focus on a particular project that they are creating and doing for.

For pastors or those in the service industry, service world, a Sabbath has, is a meant, a chance to, to decompress, to have some separation. So yeah, there's continuing education a part of it, reading, learning something new, doing a project.

But also, I mean, every single week, what, what guides my week or dictates my week or runs my week is getting ready for a Sunday and presenting for worship, to leading worship and not having to having a full weekend and not having a Sunday even before or after kind of run every single one of my weeks to decompress for that.

The last time I had a sabbatical was really helpful to kind of detach from that a little bit so that I have enough energy to go back to my present context to be inspired and have more energy to keep going. Now there is something in the kind of ministry world, kind of unsaid reality is that you get this seven year itch.

It's, you've been in a certain place five, six, seven years, you take a new call because you've done all you could do in that particular congregation or you're just kind of burned out and you need to change some of the sabbatical or given a sabbatical. So like, hey, Holy Trinity wants me to stay here.

So hey, instead of like taking a new call so you can get some rest or something different or have some change in your life to be inspired by something different, take a sabbatical, rest, read, take a vacation, reflect and pray what your call to ministry is and then come back to us ready to inspire us again. So you don't, so you don't go somewhere else or run off because you,.

You're, you're burned out.

So that, that's part of that too. Our, our.

The North Carolina Synod of the ELCA that I'm a part of has a recommendation, it's recommended that pastors are given by their congregations a sabbatical every seven years, a three month sabbatical every seven years so that those things can happen.

And then I'm thankful that my congregation has a history of sabbaticals because I think part of it is we, we are on the doorstep of University of North Carolina.

So a lot of professors and doctors and, and people in the service industry around service vocations here in Chapel Hill near University are used to people going on sabbaticals and come back, rest and recharged and, and ready to teach again. And so the person before me, who, the pastor before me had had one and had a few.

My campus pastor that I worked with for 10 years, Mark, he had a, he had a few. And then I had, after being here seven years, I've been in ordained ministry more than seven years.

And so now I'm hoping that after this summer a sabbatical, more crap doesn't hit The Fan or War 3 doesn't break out or Trump does another meme about something.

But that's what I promise will happen. Yeah.

Yeah. So. So, you know, that's part of the, the nature and the schedule and the policy of our particular congregation.

Now, why some congregation would understand if it's a smaller congregation, they can't afford it. You're the only person on staff. What are they going to do? Do you have the resources to. To grant your pastor minister a sabbatical?

But there are grants out there. There's. Lily grants. Duke has a grant. Our.

Our North Carolina Senate has a grant process that you can apply for and get extra money to help the congregation do what it's supposed to do and have a minister, an interim minister in place to lead worship on Sunday and do the life stages of Mary and Barry and baptisms. Most of the time you wait to do the wedding or baptism when the pastor gets back, as three months goes by fast.

But, but your question about, like, what happens if a big emergency. We're.

We're blessed that we have a, A large staff and I have another pastor here with me, Katie, that, you know, if something emergency happened or something needed to be done, she's ready to spring into action. Now. I. Yeah.

If there was a major tragedy where, you know, a kid in our youth group, you know, God forbid, died because of a drunk driver and, And I, I would, I would want to know about that, would I come back and leave the funeral? Would I do those things? You know, kind of in terms of contract and agreement, I'd take the three months sabbatical. I'm not supposed to plug in.

I'm not supposed to come back. I'm not supposed to do those things. Just like if you're on vacation, I guess. Yeah, you're. But I think there are, of course, exceptions to every rule.

If there's a major tragedy, our church goes up and flopping flames, a beloved church member or even an inactive church member passes away, then I'll do pastoral care and we'll think about what the funeral would look like and who oversees that. So, you know, just like anything in life, you have interruptions and unexpected things happen that you have to adjust.

But ideally, I'm going to say bye on May 18th, and they will not hear from me again until August 18th. And. And even my email will bounce back to you and say he's on sabbatical.

If it's emergency, contact Pastor Katie in the, in the church office and those kinds of things.

Yeah.

So you'll still text your friends though, right?

Well, you know, is it work is it work is, is the friendship work as a part of my vocation. There's, there's some Venn diagram.

I just want to know what IPAs I can tolerate. You know, none of them. Well, gave me one that was a.

If we, if you know, on sabbatical we go to Hero Con in Charlotte and meet some of our favorite comic book artists. That's not work. I can meet you there. We can hang out. I'll text you and make sure you know. Yeah.

So, so there's are some ideas of course family and friends and there's some people in my congregation who, who I'm friends with and I'm not going to like just ghost for three months. But, but if it's in terms of work related, church related. Hey Pastor, when are we going to do the 80th celebration?

I have a question about what's going to happen on that day. I'm not going to answer that message. Hollywell. I, I'll answer that when I get back.

I'll create a little list of things that I hope to do and, and when I get back and there'll be a little bit of prep. Get back on the, on an already moving kind of fast paced train and but, but yeah that's. I have to answer some of those questions from that.

I don't know the full history but I do understand why some congregations would be like we can't afford that. And, and some people may be a little resentful that like hey I, I worked as a line cook for 20 years and never got three months off.

I got my vacation time. I got my Saturdays and Sundays off.

But you know, in terms of like what that looks like for, for people I think to be mindful what's the nature of your job being on 247 and how breaks and decompressed and be inspired to keep going and doing what you're doing. Pastor Blow. Pastor Burnout is a real thing. Especially over post Covid Covid.

People are just, you know churches were just losing their ministries because they just couldn't take it. Of all the things that they and personalities they have to navigate and shepherd and pull together coaches, you know get, get seasons off.

There's a reason The NBA isn't 365 day sport. They, they have off seasons and on and for pastor there's no pastor and priest. There are no really off season.

There's lulls, there's times when things are more busier than others around holidays. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know, it's really cool because at the time, part of the point was like, hey, you know, information is kind of hard to get. You are going to keep paying you. You need to go to Cambridge and learn new stuff, you know, that kind of thing.

So the point of a sabbatical is kind of still the same, especially academic sabbaticals. You are expected to further your research. So I don't know, it's really cool.

It used to be a lot cooler, I think, when they'd be like, all right, you get three months off, go learn a bunch more stuff, come back, be professor. And it's pretty much the same. Pretty cool. And what do you plan to do this summer?

Well, it's funny that you asked in writing this grant application from our church body and governing body that North Carolina sended they. To kind of lay out what I'm gonna do, what I hope to do. And I. It's like rest. I have the papers right here. Here we go.

Major goals for this project are sabbatical, rest and renewal. So if I break this thing off into three month. If it's three months each month, you know, break it down each month.

First month, I really do hope to like, have some rest, renewal. Read books for pleasure. Not necessarily preparing for a sermon or for education or the next big heady theological treatise.

I. I'm gonna read like, hey, T.J. i'm gonna read the, the Darth Bane.

Yeah.

Star wars trilogy. You know, some books that I really have wanted to read, but I haven't had time that have been on my list.

I create a big book stack of reading for pleasure. I want to reread the Lord of the Rings all the way through. I haven't done that in a hot minute. So some of those things.

There's some projects around my house that have been let go over the last couple years. Either I'm too busy or dealing with family situations with my, my dad passing and all those kind of things. Haven't.

There's some long overdue stuff around the house. Whether she's cleaning out closets or organizing comic books or giving away too many T shirts that I have or something like that. So.

And then in the second month, I do want to do some traveling with, with my, with my family. We're going to travel, go to Boston for the Fourth of July. We have a friend that lives up there.

So it's Gonna be really cool because it's the 250th anniversary of America, and to do that in Boston would be pretty cool. I. I have a book in me.

Have a tea party. You.

That's dangerous these days. We'll see what happens. Maybe I have an IPA party. I mean, they got a lot of good beer out there. Yeah, There we go. There you go. There you go.

But, yeah, I. I started working on a book, God is a Surfer, because my love of surfing, love of theology, and I've led surf camps and people have heard me all the time that God is a surfer is right there in the first two chapters of the Bible. And God's spirit hovered over the waters. So what was God doing before creation or during creation? Surfing.

And invites us to be along surfers with God in the sky or on lava or in the ocean. Those. Those things happen. So I want to finish that book. I'm a good 50 pages in.

I don't know if it'd be 100 pages or 200 pages, but I. I really want to spend time with it on a quiet, silent retreat without distractions. Put the phone away and just sit down and. And finish. Finish that book so that when there's a draft, I can send it to friends and have them read it.

And then when I finish it, I can talk about it on the whole church podcast and your matter matters and Systemic ecology and Umbrella Christianity,.

All of it.

I was going to remind you. I do know how to read still. Allegedly.

I can't verify that.

Well, Jury's Child.

Oh, I do remember, though, one of the. And I lost it again right when I said that. But that second month, you should. You should come up.

You should come to Greenville, you know, spend a day or two.

That's some of the stuff, the places that I've been meaning to do that I can't because of work and responsibilities. Going to see friends, going to breweries, going to bookstores, that kind of stuff is. I really have to do that.

We've got to go to the Southern Brow.

Yes, we do.

You've got pupils over here.

I do. I do. It is a brewery. My internship supervisor, Pastor Rachel Connolly, her son is one of the brewmasters at the Southern. What?

I want to go right there.

Y' all send me. Send me a calendar invite. That's how. That's how friends hang out, right through Google Calendar.

So maybe in June we'll. We'll do that. There is a wave pool surf park in Virginia beach, an artificial wave that looks really, really fun.

I'VE surfed a wave pool before, but Typhoon Lago, but it's not like wave pool technology has grown a lot since type got a lot better. And I hope to do that for a couple of days and that will be fun there. And then month three, do some traveling. We want to go to Iceland.

We want to go to France, we want to go to Spain. A couple things that we want to do with that.

We have a neat family that's been worshiping at Holy Trinity over the last year, and he's a Lutheran pastor in Iceland, but he's taken a year sabbatical study leave at. To go to Duke Divinity School to. To study homiletics and preaching.

And so they, they gave him a year to move to North Carolina to go to Duke for his sabbatical so he could learn to do continuing ed. And so he's moving back this summer and he said, hey, we'd love to have you come to Iceland.

I've been there before and would love to go back and let him show me around, you know, some of his churches and, and camps and those kinds of things. So that, that. So rest, renewal, reading and writing and traveling and three months will fly by for sure.

Yeah. Your last sabbatical, that's what this is, what it was. Your last sabbatical, I think ended right before we started the show.

This show.

Yeah.

Yep.

So here we are. We don't get wow.

And I was on another podcast during the pandemic. We had to meet on his porch to have a conversation around faith and science. And Joshua's friend Mark heard that and said, you should talk to Will.

And that's why we're having this conversation today because.

Yeah. Yeah.

Funny how things work out.

Yeah, that was a. Those fun times. So speaking of fun times, most of these probably aren't fun times, but, you know, that's how you do transitions. You say, speaking of.

And then whatever you just said Biblically, there's a year of a Sabbath for Israel in the Torah every seven years, they're supposed to give the land a year of rest. No more working the land. We got to let it chill. Land do its own thing.

Right.

Also just a good idea in general, if you care about planet stuff, but whatever. And then every seven years of Sabbath, so on the 50th year, they would have a year of jubilee. And then also, you know, more minute each week.

You have the day of Sabbath at the end of the or beginning of the week. End of the week, end of the week.

So lots of Sabbaths, lots of days, years, whatever of rest, the year of jubilee, everybody goes free, all the debts are settled. There's a lot of this idea in the Torah about freedom, liberation and just patterns of rest.

So Will, I want to know from you a lot of Christian doctrine today. I think Luther just typically agree, we're not under the old law, we're not under the Torah anymore.

So how important do you think it is for us all to still remember patterns of rest now that we're not under that law?

Yeah, as you think about Torah, think about law. Is it like laws where if you break them, you can be thrown in jail?

Or are they gifts to be seen as restorative ways to create healthy relationships to one another and your, your environment? So a lot of these, the law within the Torah, the Ten Commandments, are seen as, as literal gifts that bring life and help life be at its fullest.

And so Sabbath isn't necessarily, oh, I don't obey the Larimar under grace, I'm just gonna ignore the, the Torah. But these are restorative practices to help the land rejuvenate, restore, heal so that you can continue to be healthy.

And I think with your own lives, having rest within your own vocations, having a time of rest and vacation and decompressing and unplugging and all those things helps you be a healthier person around. And so of course Earth would have that as well, so you can live in a healthy relationship with Earth.

So if I don't see it as laws, like I'm no longer on the law anymore because, you know, I'm free to do whatever I want. The kind of that Paul passage, but, but also seen it not necessarily as a requirement.

You're going to get in trouble or punished if you don't or do do it. But if you're. These are restorative life giving gifts, practices that, that will enrich the relationships you're a part of.

Yeah.

Amen. Hallelujah. Also, he said, doo doo.

That makes Will today's biggest loser.

So I'm so mature.

Do you think there is still an act of faith involved in trusting that God will care for the church while you're gone?

Oh man, that's such a good question.

So, yeah, part of my fear here at the church as a pastor, there's always someone I'm not paying enough attention to either either they haven't let me know or someone's hurting. I don't know that my, my biggest pastoral angst is man. As no matter how many people I called today or checked in on or spoke with or prayed with.

There's somebody who needs attention or needs help. And, and I just can't do it all. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not Christ. I'm, I'm a shepherd. I'm a shepherd of this flock.

And then that micromanaging or thinking that it's all about me and that if, if I don't do it, then nobody's going to do it. That ego can get really attached to, to your life and work when you're guiding a shepher.

So Sabbath is also a chance for me to walk away from the church for a little bit to understand that, you know, even if I'm not there on a Sunday, it's still going to worship. Even if I don't show up at my office, the building's still going to stand. You know what? People are still going to take care of each other.

And it's also educating the congregation too, that, that like, just because I'm not around doesn't mean the church is going to fall down. That they can do things too. They can help take care of one another.

It, it, the codependence can, can kind of separate a little bit from that and teach one another that, yeah, the church can survive without me and it can survive without me. I, I will survive without the church and it will survive without me. And so though, that kind of relationship, understanding will be fine.

So I do think the fear is that, yeah, someone's gonna pass away, something's gonna happen. I'm not there to fix it, or I'm not there to micromanage it, or I'm not there to control it.

So, so yeah, part of how I coach, how I serve, how I shepherd, how I guide and lead my leadership, some of the fear there is that something's going to happen without, without me there or something. They're going to change everything.

What if they, what if I get back and, and they no longer worship on Sundays at 11 o', clock, they worship at, on Saturdays at 5:23. And I'm gonna be like, what, what did you guys do? You know, we thought it would be a good idea. So when you come back.

So I don't think they're going to do major changes while I'm gone, but I do hope they learn how to live without me for a little while. So a healthy relationship, you know.

Yeah.

But if anyone at Holy Trinity is listening, I do want to make you aware. Sunday at 11am I'm working and cannot attend. Saturday at 5:23. That gives me exactly.

Almost exactly enough time that I could leave work Saturday and still make it to church. So there is that.

That is true. That's pretty funny. Not me.

It's really weird that you said those.

Times, so Joshua will change things while.

I'm the one whose idea to advocate for.

So I'm glad you talked about that the way that you did, because we were going to ask, like, do you think it's. This is a good chance for your congregation to kind of live into the fact that they're not looking up to you, they're looking up to God?

Yeah. Yeah.

There is a sense of, yeah, I feel fully supported by my congregation, and I love them and they love me, and yet I don't want them to be so attached to me that they can't live their life without me. There will be a day, whether it's me passing away or retiring or taking another call, that this church hopefully will go on. We turn 80 in the fall.

We turn 80 this summer as a congregation, that it'll survive another 80 years. And there'll be. And there'll be other people who come after me who shepherd this congregation.

And so I'm serving my time here the most faithful way I know how and feel called to. But, yeah, it's. It's not about me, and it's about this congregation being a gifted congregation and a gift to its community here in Chapel Hill.

And it will go on without me, Alex. I hope if I'm doing my job right, they're not going to die when I leave. Or die. That would be awful. So. So I. I do. I do hope that there's some of that.

Now.

There is also the danger of, like, yeah, I could do any kind of separation, or you're not around someone, you're like, oh, maybe we're better without that guy. I get back there like, you know, we're ready for a change. Well, I don't think that's going to happen. That could. It could be, or I go away.

I'm like, you know what? I could go away and be like, you know what? I don't feel called to Holy Trinity anymore. And this time has been nice. And I want to go, you know, work.

Work a surf school in Lancaster, South Carolina.

Work a surf school in Costa Rica. Sorry. Yeah. So. But there is. Part of our policy is that I'm required or recommended.

They couldn't force me, but I'm encouraged to stay a full year after the sabbatical, that I'm not going off looking and Interviewing at other places while I'm on sabbatical. When I.

All right, y', all, I'm putting in my two week notice that there's an agreement that I live into life of the congregation for, for at least a year after the sabbatical. Which is polite.

I'm just polite. This is actually starting Will's travel influencer career.

Yeah, yeah, my travel blog, YouTube page be like, hey, here's another waterfall. And then I go to Alex and turn around the corner. Hey, look, guys, another one. I was like, golly, this is the most boring travel dude I've ever seen.

More than once at my work, I have had somebody start, realize they got three paid sick days, use those and never came back. So, yeah, again, I like to stay a little bit longer after your breaks.

That's right. That's right. Quitting or ghosting somebody happens in every profession, in podcasts and pastor pastorships, all those kind of stuff.

But in terms of, you know what, you know, I, I've, I've done, I think, good communication with my congregation of what a sabbatical is, what it isn't, what I hope to do and plan to do. And when I come back, I'm ready to, you know, ready for a new fall semester. And, and we're going to keep the momentum going.

We're, we are a healthy, growing congregation in, in many, in diverse waves, not, not just numbers. And we want to keep that going.

And a way to do that is for me to, to, to get a clear vision of who I am, what my gifts are, what maybe my blind spots are. Read some books on.

Towards the end of the sabbatical, I will pick up some theology books and leadership books and really kind of discern and think through and journal and reflect what I do well, what I could do better. And so what are some of my blind spots that, that I could do better as a pastor? It is ironic though.

Like, after my last sabbatical, I came back and was like, you know what, What I really learned is that I'm a, I'm a really good. So I'm going to really focus in on just like meeting one on one with people and meeting for coffees and beers and meals.

And then like three weeks into me being back, my, my music director says, I'm, I'm leaving, I'm moving. I'm like, oh crap. And then here comes the pandemic. I'm like, oh, crap.

So I was thrown immediately into administrative tasks of creating a call committee and, and a search committee to look for A new church musician. And then here comes the pandemic. So that I was derailed. But, yeah, you.

You find out what your gifts are, what you appreciate and what you want to do more of and what you long for. And I. And I. I loved my. I love my time away in my last sabatical.

But I found towards the end of it that I was ready to get back because I missed people. I missed Sunday worship, I missed parts of my job that I couldn't wait to get back. And that's. That's what hopefully this one will do, too.

And that's hopefully what a sabbatical will do for others out there, too. So if there are churches that they're listening or pastors that are listening, it's like, how could I ever do that? I'm not in Chapel Hill.

I don't have the resources. You have. My congregation really throw me out if I even, you know, suggested the thought of taking three months off. But.

But the education isn't just three months off. Three months vacation.

It's this education piece of, like, this is going to benefit y' all as much as it's going to benefit me of this mutual relationship and ministry that we have together.

Me being energized and restful and you all even discerning what life is like without this particular pastor and what you want to do as a congregation and do some discerning can really help you grow. You some pruning and then you do some gardening, and then you do some soil enrichment. And there you go. You're going to bear fruit for the Lord.

Just real quick, I do want to say a lot of times on our show, we focus on global church unity or between denominations and local unity is important, too, especially between the laity and congregation. And this is an example of that. You need to have rest or else it's easy for a pastor to start to kind of resent. Will would never say it.

I don't know if he ever has. But it's easy. Like when you get burnt out and it's the same people going to you over and over, sometimes you need a break.

That's just relationship 100.

Yeah. And I think being honest is like, yeah, Sometimes you're like, guys, I need. I need a break. I need some time. I need to. I need to do that.

And hopefully you're taking a couple days a week off, you know, just so you can decompress and get ready for. For the next week. And. And that doesn't always happen in. In this line of work. And Vocation.

But yeah, that's what you, that's what the, the goal is at the end.

And I, and I will say that if there's listeners out there, pastors out there who are like, how do I get my church, how do I convince my church to give me a sabbatical? Reach out to me, DM me, email me, contact Joshua. He knows how to get in touch with me. I'll give you my, my number.

I'd be happy to, to do a little coaching and, and a way there. I think there's a way to frame it to your leadership and your, Your board, your council, your, Your deacons to, to, to say, to present that to them.

And, and you know, it's not just me saying I need a sabatical, but we have a mutual ministry team that as a team, their job is to make sure that there's a mutual, healthy relationship between me and the congregation.

And so the sabbatical, this time for sabbatical, they were the first one to mention it and to write a newsletter article and say, this is what's happening and this is why we do it. It didn't come from me, from the public, go, I need a sabbatical, because you guys are burning me out. It is like, hey, this is.

Comes from the laity and the church council and the governing body who are presenting the reasons why this is happening and go from there. So people understand that thing. You present it a way, articulate the way that everyone's, it's for everyone's benefit.

So if there's anybody out there who needs help of how to, how to do that and how to talk to your congregation about that, I'd be happy to, you know, chat with you, you and think with you about those things.

Yeah. Do you think they'd get mad if you turned around and attended Holy Trinity as a member for the next three months?

You know, if. What now? If, If I, oh, like, I'm not there for leading worship, but I just show up on a Sunday morning sitting in the pew. That would be weird.

It would be weird. Yeah. I do hope though, like, I, I am. There's. I'm still going to worship.

Now, the last pandemic or last time I had a sabbatical, it was before the pandemic, before we did live streaming. So I really was away from the congregation and did not know what they were doing on a Sunday morning.

Now I can like, definitely stalk and eavesdrop and watch their YouTube page and see what they're doing or announcing on Sunday. There's a whole different reality for us. But I'm not gonna even do that. Like I'll let them do their thing.

I don't need to micromanage and see what they're doing. I'm sure if Pastor K has a question like, oh man, this happened. I, sorry to bother you. Can you, what's the password? The blah blah blah.

I'll be like, cool, here you go.

But I, I do hope last sabbatical I did worship some friends churches in the neighborhood and in our town that I don't get to hear my friend Clark or, or Kurt or, or Elizabeth preach on a Sunday because we're all doing our thing.

So to go and attend and, and, and, and go worship at other places, different traditions to see what they do and, and to enrich my own worship life too. So I, I, I, I'm not going to worship every Sunday. I will say that I will.

I do acts of Sabbath and reading and prayer, but I may visit friends churches and other churches just to see what people are up to. Not, not to compare and contrast, but to, just to see, see what's going on in other worlds. To see if I can learn, learn anything new.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to pray without ceasing. It's fine.

So in John, like Joshua and I have restaurant, there's a lot of collaboration involved in longer breaks where other managers, other stores even have to step in and help fill the gap that we leave. And for us a long break is like anything longer than seven days, longer.

Than one day, honestly.

Yeah. Anything more than two days a week, you're trying to get more than your two days off. Off, it's just kind of tough.

But is there something similar in place for the church where other leaders or other local congregations chip in to help care for your congregation while you're going?

Yeah, I mean we, we started this conversation way back in January and kind of playing it out with church council and our mutual ministry team and personnel team and then meeting with Pastor Katie and Holly, our full time staff and our worship planning. Here's the list of. I mean there's some things that people don't know that I do on a Sunday morning.

Like, like I, I'm usually the one to go to the lectern mic and make sure it's turned on or unmuted. And so I can see the first Sunday where they're like, they start talking to the mic and wait a minute, there's no batteries in here.

Doesn't someone usually do that? Oh, that was Pastor Will. He put Batteries in the lectern mic every Sunday and just didn't tell anybody. That's just part of his Sunday routine.

So keeping those, keeping those little lists, there's people that I shut in members and, and home visits and communions that I normally do that I gave that list to Katie and, and, and so we, they looked at the whole summer and say what summer? What, what weeks are. Need extra help and someone on call in case they're on vacation and no one's around.

So we, we've looked at the whole summer and done a lot of planning and forethought leading up to the summer. So it's not just like Will's gone. What do we do now? We've done a lot of, a lot of planning. Yeah.

And I think Joshua with S. Mike Eagology has done that too. When I said I'm not going to record unless there's breaking news with Star Wars, I need to hop on and give my hot 10 minute take on it.

But I, I think, yeah, like you playing around, someone not being around and, and hopefully fill the gaps of what they normally do.

Yeah, it's got a lot to do with my God moment too. Also, I can guarantee that my store is not getting changed this week. It's just a thing.

Our sabbaticals because it is offered at our restaurant. I think it's only for salaried managers. I'm not sure. Some people seem to think otherwise.

I really doubt that this time time, like a year and a half or a year from now that I'm gonna get a sabbatical seems really unlikely.

There's a few factors that determine it that I'll talk about later. That's not important right now. Sorry.

But even for us when we do get that sabbatical, I'm pretty sure it's every 10 years and it's one month. So yeah, it's a little.

Which is still insane. I can't imagine being gone for a month.

What?

I can't imagine being gone two weeks. Just be wild.

But you know, Will, I know you have to go, but there's one thing we do like to do every episode just to ask for practical action that would help better engender Christian unity. And I'm going to go ahead and presume today's practical action and ask you what would happen if more of the church took the time to rest.

Do you think it would help us have better church unity if we all just, you know, not like sabbaticals, but everybody actually took some of these patterns of Rest and weren't constantly going at it and constantly doing stuff. If we just took more time, how do you think that might help with church unity?

Yeah, I think we're tempted to try to keep pace with the world that's continuing to accelerate at breakneck speeds. And so I think sometimes to win the tug of war, you just let go of the rope. You know, you're like, I'm not going to play this game anymore.

And so I think the fear is if I don't play the game, if I don't keep up, then we're just going to be irrelevant. And, and it's going to pass us by and the church down the road is going to have the most, you know, whatever you, you think you need.

But I think since in the fabric of creation, Sabbath was a part of the original nature of, of the rhythms and the rhymes of the universe, then, then maybe our, our communities and church bodies and communities of faith should, should practice that too. So. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I, I had a long. I have not stopped for, like, seven days. I feel like. And I'm feeling it right now like I am.

I am super tired.

And, and so to get a good night's sleep, to curl up with a good book, to catch my breath, to do some reflection and interior work of why am I here, what am I, what am I doing? And, and all those kinds of things is really helpful for a healthy life and a healthy faith. And I think for trust churches it is, too.

And, and you gotta, you gotta do it, and you gotta hold each other accountable to it too, because it's so easy to get. You know, as we talked about in the beginning of this, in the current and the rip current and the waves, we gotta, it can get rough out there.

And so sometimes you just, you just gotta drop the rope, man. Drop the rope.

What, what changes in the world if everyone drops that rope and takes the time they need for themselves?

You're not competing against each other. You're not irritating each other. You're not biting each other's head off. You're.

You're seeing the other person as they're meant to be seen as, as a beloved child of God and, and, and of value. And so if you value yourself and in your own breath and your own rest, and hopefully you value the other person's too.

And, and I think, yeah, maybe we'd all just need to, you know, chill a little bit, relax. That, that, that, that will help in terms of how we interact with each other. Short run, long run.

All right. Yeah. So before we wrap up, if you still have time, we like to ask everyone for their God moment. You know what it is? It's the God moment.

Blessing, challenge mode, worship, curse, whatever it may be, always make Joshua go first and tell us where he's seen God in his life recently.

Whatever the case may be extremely on point. I asked for a few days off to go to Will's church. So I asked a few days off from my work so I could see Will and other people in Chapel Hill.

And I had some stuff I wanted to do. This is a double God moment. I didn't do everything I wanted to do.

Instead, it became a trip I almost didn't take, but I took really the stuff that, like, was productive, was almost like the side product. And the main goal became seeing my friends and remembering how important that is. And that man, I need to go see TJ soon. So that's God moment.

Mom 1 In that also, so many people from other stores and stuff.

Like, we had some managers sick and different stuff happen at our store where, like, our store should not have functioned the last three days without me.

But like, my field leader, my boss has bought, like, all kinds of people are like, reaching out in group messages like, hey, Josh is supposed to have this time off. Can someone help?

And just seeing how many people I've worked with at different stores step up and like, yeah, I'm going to do this for Josh to have some time off. It's just such a blessing. And I'm so excited to go back to work tomorrow. Tomorrow. That's gonna sound like.

That sounds weird, but I'm like, man, I'm gonna make more guac than anybody has made on a Wednesday just to prove I can.

You had a three days sabbatical, man.

It was.

Yeah, yeah. Imagine if you had three months. Imagine if you had three months, how.

Pumped I would go crazy.

I would get another job. I would have. By the end of that three months, I would have a second job, a fourth job, if you count this one, and my business business.

I would have a fourth job by then.

Just for fun, just to do something. Yeah, yeah.

For me, my God moment is recently very, very relevant. A store, the closest store to me, actually had their apprentice pass away. And it was his funeral, was my day off.

And they reach out to me and they're like, hey, can you. You open our store so that we can go to his funeral? He was Catholic. That funeral lasted forever.

So instead of grill being there for a couple of hours for the. For the GM and everybody to get back. I was there for eight hours and I was glad to do it.

Doing the Lord's work.

Yeah, doing the Lord's work. Doing the Lord's work. That's why I don't like the verse we started with. It's very un. Pentecostal.

Pentecostal.

I feel like it's anti work. Not a. Not a fan.

And listen, sometimes Jesus is rolling burritos and sometimes he's hanging on a hammock, you know. Yeah.

This whole topic is very un Pentecostal to me. But, you know.

Yeah. Pentecostals don't have Sabbath sabbaticals, I don't think.

No, never.

I don't think any of them.

I've never.

That I'm aware of. Yeah.

So Will God moment.

Yeah. Oddly enough. Yeah. I got to worship sitting beside Joshua Noel this past. This past Sunday.

So, yeah, it was our Lutheran campus ministry Sunday, so our students in our campus ministry led all of worship. And then Pastor Katie presided at the sacrament of Communion. So I was able to just sit in the pew and worship with the laity.

And, you know, I'm still working because I'm there and I'm interacting with people and talking about and leading some things.

But to be able to sit in the pew and worship from a different standpoint, from leading worship than just experiencing worship, where the lady sit was, was very nice and very therapeutic. And sitting with Joshua's co.

Cool.

I think I was the one who was talking the most. And like, we're whispering to him while he was trying to worship, which is, you know, kind of. Kind of my jam anyway.

But, you know, even, like, one of our students gave a homily and it was very touching.

And at the early service at 8:30, she was talking about how hard her semester was and the support that we've given them and her mom and, you know, to keep up the good work. And I looked over and I saw one of our members kind of wiping her eyes with little tears, like she was touched by it.

And I was like, you know, if I hadn't been sitting out in the pew and looked over, you know, down the road, I would have never seen that. I would have my back to her and just listening to Sylvie. So that. That was a neat, neat experience.

Yeah.

Yeah. And if anyone from the campus is listening to this podcast and wondering who was giggling during the service that day, it was me and Will.

And I'm sorry. I'm not sorry, but I'll say that I'm sorry to make you feel.

Dude, I'm Gonna get in trouble for giggling in class or certain inappropriate moments. My. My entire life it was.

We're literally talking about someone. Star wars shirt.

Yeah. And Devin. Devin is in front of me with like a full on Star wars with all the like the famous star spaceships.

And my mind is wondering like what I hoping in the man, what I hope opens in the Mandalorian Grogu. And I'm leaning over Josh, would it be cool if like, he's like, will, stop. There's too much.

I did not Will.

For the record, like, will stop.

Yeah, I would. I. I would have.

I was laughing.

Yeah.

I was just so excited to see. I just feel like I haven't seen any of my friends in so long. That was such a good trip for me.

But nice.

I already said that.

Didn't come here yet.

I went there more recently than I went to Chapel Hill before this weekend. I think because we watched a movie together at some point last year that.

I went that was there for. That was Oppenheimer.

I didn't see Oppenheimer. I still have not seen that movie. It might have been Dune two.

It was to. That's worse.

I don't travel, apparently, except for to Disney and Cumberland.

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We hope you enjoyed this show. Coming up, we'll be interviewing Chantal Morales McKinney about her new book Following Jesus Beyond Church Walls.

And we'll be having another roundtable discussion on evangelism, mission work and other means of outreach. After that, we plan to have a short break for a week or two. We're having our own sabbatical.

Not really.

But then we're going to begin a series on the behind the scenes of ministries from the local church, the publishing office, whatever you can think of, we're going to get there. We're going to get down and dirty with it. So finally, at the end of season one, allegedly Francis Chan will be on the show.

Yeah, he doesn't know it, though, so you guys do have to tell him. Maybe force him, twist his arm, kick him, whatever you got to do.

Everything's fair.

Don't forget to give him the link, though. Otherwise you're just beating them up.

Don't assault them for no reason.