In this enlightening dialogue, Kristen Tideman, the proprietor of Tidy Studios and a skilled event planner and website designer, articulates the profound interrelation between one's professional endeavors and theological discourse. We delve into her experiences that illuminate how the theological discussions prevalent in churches and seminaries resonate—or fail to resonate—in the quotidian lives of individuals. Kristen's reflections reveal the vital importance of viewing work not merely as a solitary pursuit but as a collective endeavor that impacts the community at large. Through her insights, we explore the implications of church spaces being utilized as vibrant community centers, fostering connection and support rather than isolation. This episode ultimately invites listeners to reconsider the practical applications of theology in their everyday occupations and community engagements.

The latest installment of our Whole Church Job Fair series features an enlightening dialogue with Kristen Tideman, the proprietor of Tidy Studios, an enterprise specializing in event planning and website design. Engaging with our hosts, Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell, Kristen delves into the intersection of her professional endeavors and her theological upbringing. Having been introduced to Kristen through the Theology Beer Camp—a cherished annual gathering of theological discourse and community—this episode explores how her background in church and faith informs her approach to work in a modern, often secular landscape. Kristen offers a unique perspective on how theological discussions can resonate within the vocational realm, emphasizing the importance of fostering authentic community connections through both events and digital platforms.

Throughout the conversation, Kristen reflects on her journey from a deeply rooted evangelical upbringing to her current role as a facilitator of events that bridge gaps between faith and everyday life. She articulates the intricate dynamics of creating spaces where individuals can explore their beliefs without fear of judgment. As she discusses her work with Tidy Studios, she highlights the significance of presenting oneself authentically in professional settings, and how this authenticity can contribute to building one another up in a community. The episode serves as a poignant reminder of how our daily occupations can reflect our theological convictions, inviting listeners to consider the broader implications of their work in the context of faith.

Moreover, Kristen's insights into the practical aspects of event planning provide valuable lessons for church leaders and community organizers alike. By sharing her experiences, she underscores the necessity of being responsive to the needs of diverse audiences, particularly in church settings that strive to remain relevant in an evolving cultural landscape. This dialogue not only illuminates Kristen's personal journey but also invites listeners to engage in self-reflection regarding their own vocational paths in relation to their faith. As the episode unfolds, it becomes clear that the theological conversations held in churches and seminaries do indeed have the potential to influence and enrich our everyday lives, particularly through the lens of community engagement and service.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, Kristen Tideman articulates the profound impact of community on one’s work, emphasizing that our efforts in various jobs can significantly support and uplift others.
• Kristen discusses the importance of accessibility in digital work, highlighting how a website should not only reflect the individual but also cater to the audience's needs and expectations.
• The conversation touches upon the theological implications of our daily occupations, suggesting that our work can be a form of ministry and a means to serve others in tangible ways.
• Kristen provides insights into how churches can better use their spaces to foster community engagement and support local creatives, thereby enriching both the church and the surrounding community.
• The episode explores the intersection of faith and profession, revealing that theological discussions can indeed influence our day-to-day work experiences and relationships.
• Kristen shares her journey through various church communities, illustrating how her evolving theological perspectives have shaped her professional path and personal growth.

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The Music in this episode is "Day by Day" by the Porter's Gate Collective. We received written permission for use of their song in this series and hope everyone will consider going over to hear the full song for themselves.

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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network:

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Don't miss any of the episodes we've done in this series so far:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/660c787f-d176-4587-b3b1-1e8fce4df217

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Check out Kristen's website for Tidy Studios:

https://www.tidystudios.com/

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Check out more from TJ on Systematic Geekology:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/642da9db-496a-40f5-b212-7013d1e211e0

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Check out Joshua's Kingdom Hearts substack, The Kingdom Key:

https://thekingdomkey.substack.com/

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Get your tickets to Theology Beer Camp 2025 in St Paul, MN, today!

https://www.theologybeercamp2025.com/

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Day by Day, by The Porter's Gate Collective

Check out the full song and listen to other music by The Porter's Gate Collective - a music ministry with similar ecumenical goals to our own!

Carpenter, you frame a house for those who need protection. Laborer, you lift a heavy burden for the weak. Leaders, build a city that our children may rejoice in. May God's kingdom come on earth.

His will be done.

Ephesians 4:25 29 in the Christian standard Bible say, therefore, putting away lying, speak the truth, each one to his neighbor. Because we are members of one another, be angry and do not sin. Don't let the sun go down on your anger, and don't give the devil an opportunity.

Let the thief no longer steal. Instead he is to do honest work with his own hands so that he has something to share with anyone in need.

No foul language should come from your mouth, but only what is good for building up someone in need so that it gives grace to those who hear. In the book of Ephesians, St. Paul is explaining what it means to be the church.

And before this predicope, Paul wrote that the church is to work together in all of our different roles. Here St. Paul insists the church builds one another up in word deeds and ties our occupational work to, to the idea.

Kristen Tiedemann how do you think the way we present ourselves in work could tie into the idea of building up one another?

Yeah, well I do love, I love that this verse, this saying because we are members of one another.

I think that is just beautiful on its own but it just reminds me that so much of our lives even like and we'll get into this with my job, it's kind of like can be feel solitary.

It actually does impact so many other people and yeah work we'll talk about like again my perspective with events and some marketing things but it's basically it is, it helps other people do what maybe they can't do and they help me, they do things I can't do and I think that's beautiful and that goes to so many jobs as well.

Us Lord, have mercy on us Lord, please put your hands on us day by day.

Hey guys. Welcome to the Whole Church podcast with the whole church job fair.

We're talking to people about their day to day lives in their occupations and seeing whether or not the stuff that we're arguing about in our churches, in our seminaries and all this stuff, if it actually matters, does it make a difference in people's lives?

And today we have a special guest, a dear friend of ours, someone we all look up to, even the one and only Kristin Tiedemann, the real mind behind theology of your camp. Sorry Trip. We're gonna be honest here. We believe in honesty.

Oh my Gosh, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for, for joining us.

I know you like your tidy studios, and just like at one point, I compared you to Indiana Jones and Ryan Doe's podcast, and I feel like that's the best introduction.

Oh, my gosh. Well, anytime I can run around and, you know, get into an adventures, that is my favorite time. But usually my days aren't that exciting.

Yeah, there's not a. Not a lot of boulders, you know.

Yeah. Not a beer camp, unfortunately, but sometimes they're snakes. No, there's not. But if he lets a few more Pentecostals in, we might make it happen.

You know, I'm bringing my own.

I'm bringing my own this year.

Yeah.

So that voice you're hearing, guys, he's actually the one who convinced the Almighty to make snakes. You know, in the beginning, God created everything. He said it was good. And TJ was there.

I was like, you know, I bet you can make it a little bit better. What if you just, I don't know, added snakes and God was like, man, tj, you're so wise. And he did that.

So we have the mind behind snakes, the one and only TJ Tiberius Juan Blackwell here with us today. Thank you, tj, for having your own show that I get to be on.

You're welcome.

Yeah.

Yay.

Yeah.

And if you like what you're listening to, then check out the Onazam Ministries Network website links below for shows that are like ours and very much not like ours, but that we're friends with and much cool stuff on there, you can check out if you're already listening on. On YouTube, maybe like and subscribe maybe that would be super helpful for me, personally, I would like that a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think you all know what I would like a lot. It's something we do at the beginning of every show. It's a holy sacrament here.

And that is, of course, the sacrament of silliness, where we start with a silly question. A friend of all of ours brought to us this silly question on our Facebook group. We were asking people what.

What are the biggest theological issues of the day that we want to see if they're relevant or not?

And Samantha Perez, beautiful, wonderful friend of ours, said, I know the theological issue that we need an answer to right now is a hot dog, a sandwich. So we're asking everybody. Since that got a lot of votes on our Facebook group, we're making everybody fill us with wisdom.

You know, TJ answered this the first episode. I'll answer at the last episode of the series. Today we get a Kristen's wisdom. Is a hot dog a sandwich?

I. I did listen to one of your episodes. There were a lot of hot dog sandwich believers. I am not one of them.

I think definitionally you could definitely fit it. You could get it in there, you could make it work.

But experientially and also like when I'm craving a sandwich, it's a very different craving than craving a hot dog. I don't think it works. Don't think it works.

Well, you just eat it sideways.

Yeah.

Doesn't make it better. It still does. It doesn't feel like a sandwich.

It does, but is the casing. But in what way, if any, do you think that question could be relevant in your day to day life, your work life?

Oh, man. Well, there's lots of ways you can, in my work life, you can look at things as with the hot dog and sandwich.

And one big thing I do, I'll share more later, I'm sure, is websites for people. And websites, man, they can be a lot like a sandwich. And that people are like, I want this, I want that. Mayo, mustard, relish.

And then you're like, relish on a sandwich that belongs on the hot dog. And you can explain certain things that are going to be more palatable for more groups of people. But sometimes people still have specific tastes.

So that's how it's relevant in my life.

I like it. I like it. Yeah, it's a good. See, I see. That's a good move. That's a good move. If you try hard enough, anything can be relevant.

Just think about it. Think about Relevant magazine. Yeah, yeah, well. And pick out the best title.

But we mentioned, we mentioned a lot earlier the reason we're doing this series. A lot of our listeners, people who listen to our show according to stats and numbers that we blindly just read and go, yeah, that's probably right.

Our pastors, theologians, church leaders, people who are attending seminary. These are the people listening to our show a lot of the time.

And we believe that our church leaders could benefit from hearing more and learning more from people who are different occupations, who aren't pastors, who aren't in seminary necessarily.

So that's why we're doing this series, is that those who are in these positions listening to the show can hear from people who are outside of that world a little bit or maybe only kind of in that world. You know, it's a different perspective.

So we want to ask you, Kristen, Starting off, would you mind kind of unpacking some of your history with the church ministry, faith community, all that kind of stuff, like where you find yourself now for our listeners?

Yeah, great question. So I grew up in church from like birth, basically. My parents each had a little bit of a Baptist history.

So that's kind of my familial, theological sort of underpinning. It was so funny. I remember being like 4 years old and we're driving, driving to church. I lived in New Jersey at the time.

We drove by my friend's house, she was outside playing and I'm like, why isn't she in church, Mom? You know, I'm like, everyone's supposed to be in church right now. And they were like, she doesn't go. And I'm like, what? She doesn't go?

Well, that doesn't make sense. So, yeah, very.

But evangelical really, like my upbringing, we, we stayed at, we, we moved a couple times as kids and stayed at kind of B ish churches or we went to a Bible church at one point. But then my primary church from when I started living in Pennsylvania was non denominational.

And in high school I got super involved which like really set a tone. I also was going to Christian school at the time, an evangelical school. So I was really soaking it all in.

And I remember being like, very even, you know, by my own estimations, looking at others very serious. Like I was taking it seriously. Sometimes I was a little judgy and I'm like, I don't know if everyone's taking it as seriously as they should.

I'm like, I'm reading the whole Bible. Not as many times as Joshua, of course, who reads it multiple times a year.

But I was like, I was like, okay, people aren't even trying to have their quiet times. I was like, what are they thinking?

And so I, yeah, I was like, helped lead youth group and went to small group, like the whole, everything you could picture. Really very involved. And then when it came time, I should speed this up because I'm only at college.

But I almost went to Wheaton, did not go to Wheaton College, went to a public university because I was like, I'm still going to go to church. And I did go to church and was very involved and was like, not a problem. Like, I don't mind public school. It's not changing my faith.

Got involved with a Christian ministry in Ecuador and lived in Ecuador for three years.

I didn't know that. That's so cool.

That's my very. Yeah, that's my Other life story.

Yeah, where I worked, it was like very much a learning and like, like volunteering kind of mixed where you were helping with on the ground organizations like food kitchens, juvenile detention, after school programs, but then also learning some different skills, which pertains actually to what I do now. There was marketing classes and web design classes. That was my first taste of like, design and anything like that.

And so, yeah, I ended up working with that organization for a couple years after doing the internship program. And then I was like, do I stay in Ecuador and just live here? And I was kind of laying that. And I'm like, I don't. Yeah, I don't really.

I don't really know if that's the move. And so I came back, moved to Philadelphia, which is about an hour from where I grew up, and started working there.

Gotten very involved with a Reformed church. So a little different. But I was kind of starting to move away from like evangelicalism. Actually.

The program in Ecuador was multi denominational, which was my first real exposure to some denominations, like more Pentecostal or. Yeah. Or even some like reformed or just even more. Maybe more open to movements of the Spirit than I had been in my own tradition.

So that was very interesting. But I think opened me up to. To be like, okay, well, I don't have to just go to like a big. The biggest church in town.

I was really drawn to this church in Philly because of the. It was quite liturgical. And I was starting to be kind of in my head, I think, more about certain things, which then translated into.

After being in Philly a couple years, I decided to go back to grad school for philosophy. And I did that. Vancouver, Canada. Yeah. And I really focused on the philosophy of religion.

So some of my highlights, like classes that I took that were highlights were reason and belief in God, not reasons to believe in God, reason and belief in God and then suffering and belief in God. And my grad school, Trinity Western University was a Christian university. So I was like, I didn't do this for undergrad. Now I want to really.

I want to be serious and I want these answers. And there are actually a lot of theological issues kind of at play in my mind that motivated me returning to school. But it was funny. Yeah.

I didn't choose to go to seminary because I do think it was. I don't know, I didn't see myself as like, well, I'm not going to ministry, like, and I think Providence.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, exactly. But if you're also not in a ministry role per se, in your church, and you don't have a church leader necessarily guiding you into a seminary program.

I think you're. You're not as familiar with. With those program options now.

While I was in grad school, I ended up working at the seminaries that were associated with the school. It was a consortium with four seminaries, all of different denominations, which I thought was a very interesting setup.

So learned a lot about seminary programs there and kind of secondhand theology. I had an amazing boss when I worked there, and we would sometimes, you know, in the.

In part of it was Covid, but then some was in the office, but at times just had, like, the best chats, and I'm like, this is great. Like, you know, this is why. This is, like, why I came here. This is what, you know, school is all about. Even though that was my job. And now.

So I came back to the East Coast, I could get more details, but I won't get too mired in the minutia. I am actually not at a church, and there's reasons for that.

I would say from grad school, I definitely moved more progressive theologically than I had been all growing up and through most of my 20s. Um, and I would say the churches, even the church I'd been to prior, when I was in Philly, I'm like, I'm not sure that I theologically align.

That being said, and I have visited, I'm open to going to church. I'm considering it. And this now I'm thinking about the potential pastors listening in Philly who are gonna call me up. No, but I.

I have thought, you know, it's not that I need absolutely everything to align. I don't think that's necessarily the case as much as I think it's. Yeah. Just recognizing. I. Well, partially it will be a commitment.

Like, I want to be committed, you know, not just a visitor. Anytime I'm involved, I'm kind of like, I'm part of this. But I. Yeah, I think it's a little bit of the deciding.

Yeah, it's probably just that simple deciding. And, yeah, I could give more details there, but that's my. That's my overview. And so very, very churched. A lot of different here and there.

Lots of interdenominational experiences. But, yeah, I think. And that's. And then, of course, beer camp plays into that too, because that's kind of like.

Right.

That's kind of, in a way, like. Yeah, I was going to say it is kind of like my church community in a way. Like. And all the people That I see.

Even though we're only all in person that one time every. Every year. So. Yeah.

Yeah. A couple quick follow ups. Was it Ecuador or Vancouver where you learned to be female Indiana Jones?

Oh, gosh. Probably started in Ecuador. Ecuador. Had some crazy adventures. Yeah. Sometimes I was like, I should not be. I'm like, this is not safe.

Like there, there was one time where I literally had an opportunity to jump off of a bridge. And yeah. I was like, you know what? This is too similar to the saying, I'm gonna draw the line and not jump off a bridge just because my friend did.

Yeah, that's fair.

I would have.

Yes.

Yeah.

I would feel less safe in Vancouver.

Personally, but actually more serious follow up though, because you mentioned it a little bit and there might be some people who are unfamiliar. But what is the difference of philosophy of religion and theology from your understanding?

Yeah, the way I describe it to people, which I sometimes I'm like, what? Even philosophers agree with this, but I would say it is. It's very similar to philosophy. It just has more premises.

And so theology essentially accepts predominantly like we're usually talking about Christian theology and you're accepting the Bible as the starting place, saying, okay, we have this now. How do we deal with.

With its text and interpret it and lean on what we've, what we've had, you know, given to us by the tradition, you know, you could get into. I mean, even in philosophy you have like things like the Wesleyan quadrilateral and like how we, how we put trust in certain things over others. And.

Yeah, and I would say you're still employing reason, but philosophy can kind of be like, well, we don't even know about this Bible stuff. Let's take a step back the other way.

I kind of, it's kind of funny, like I would compare philosophy and biblical studies, what philosophy is to like theology history is to biblical studies, like kind of in that way. Like they're. Yeah. Anyway, so that's my. That's my layperson. Ish. Take. It's only a master's degree. It's not a PhD so I could have more to learn.

Of course. Yeah.

So could you share with our listeners what about like just kind of what you do with Tidy Studios and what your involvement is with like the Ology Beer camp.

Yeah, yeah. So Tidy Studios is a kind of a promotional partner for primarily academics.

Not exclusively, but usually people that have some academic leaning or association and who are trying to get their project often to a wider audience.

So I see theology beer campus fitting under that Obviously theology beer camp is an event so a bit more involved, a little different than just making a website or helping with some ads or copy or something like that. But it is also reaching people just as you know, Trip Fuller.

That's a lot of his, you know, his shtick, his main thing getting, getting that knowledge out of the ivory tower. But yeah, with my, with my clients, a lot of them lean either Christian, post Christian or just maybe post evangelical.

So still kind of Christian but more progressive. And so a lot of the projects are directly relevant to church and ministry.

And some of the stuff, you know, you talk about on your, on your podcast, like it's crazy. One of, one of the projects I'm working on right now is a seminary like formation.

Like it's assessing how people's maturity actually is formed through seminary. Not just their, not just their knowledge, but they're actually their character and so extremely relevant. Another project studies nuns and dones.

N o N E S not N u N of course. And how their, how their, you know, experience with the church.

You know, there's, there's certain words in this whole, there's this like, this is kind of, this whole realm of study, you know, religious residue, things like that.

But yeah, kind of categorizing nuns and dones with the intention of providing them with resources for meaning making and very interesting, you know, again from where I've come from and a lot of the people I know and I think people at camp as well. But yeah, that's just a couple, just a sample of some of the things I do.

That's right, just taste, not the portfolio, just not quite. So this is the whole church job fair.

And before getting into anything else, if someone, or somehow someone never heard of what it is you do, how would you describe your job and how would you address anyone who might be interested in pursuing a career like yours?

Yeah, yeah, well, because I really am a one, a one person studio, if you will, one man show. I would say starting there I kind of described what I do. You know, it's a promotional partner in a way.

It's very much like managing your own, your, your own time, your business, doing the biz dev. But also then you know, you're managing things for your clients in terms of their projects.

Whether again yeah, a lot of them have ended up being web projects because so many people need them. But I would say if you interested in this career there is need. So a lot of people need websites.

That's how they get their information out to the world. And a lot of People can make their own websites. I don't necessarily have to be this. I'm not this, like linchpin for everyone.

Like, oh, we need someone just like Kristen. And there are tons of agencies. There are big agencies that do big sites. I mean, websites can get very expensive.

If you're doing a bigger site, you could have a site. Well, I worked at a web agency, actually, when I.

When I first lived in Philly, and you can have sites easily over $100,000, even if you're doing it just for a university. And it's not. Universities have tons of sites under their, like, umbrella admissions site.

You know, it's not like you just have one site to rule them all, if you will. And so where I fit in really well and where someone could think about this, there are tons of people doing this.

But my specialty, like, my knowledge having been to grad school, having this connection to academics serves those academics in a different way because I can kind of speak their language. And also I hit at a budget at a price point that's going to be a lot more accessible than going to a big agency. Most these people are not going to.

They're not trying to spend, you know, 30, 40, $50,000 on a website. I mean, if anyone wants to pay me that for a website, I'm not going to be so upset.

Yeah, of course.

But yeah, there's. That's, you know, that's kind of when you fit into a market that is. Right. Like kind of the proper size for you. So that's a little bit.

I mean, again, the events side too, that's different. And I'm marrying these two currently, actually in the process of trying to define them.

Events, you do have to be kind of a crazy person to do because there's so many details. But ultimately, if you get an event, you have to keep a level head. That's the biggest thing during the event. You have to just know.

Like, oftentimes no one can answer the question for you. You just have to make a decision. And that's kind of what I like about it. But it's also challenging.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds me kind of like running a restaurant. Someone will come up to you and ask, oh, this is happening.

I'm just totally.

I'm just gonna say what I want to happen.

Yeah, but not everyone feels comfortable with that. Not everyone feels, like, empowered and, you know, or they might feel like, I don't want to make the wrong mistake, but sometimes.

Or like the wrong choice. But sometimes you will. But some. Something has to Be done. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I, like, as far as, like, the restaurant stuff, too, like, it's.

It's interesting because I've seen situations where a manager has freaked out because, oh, my God, we're 30 minutes behind on prep, and it's made the entire shift awful, even though they have enough people and everything, because, like, their headspace is bad. It makes everybody bad.

And I've seen a spot where, like, I've literally worked where it's been me, one other person, and a manager, and they're like, oh, the line's out through the door. The manager's like, all right, so they'll have to wait a little bit. And the shift ran great. It was fine.

Yeah. No, that's a great example. It's like that person kind of in that position can really shape how the whole team feels.

It's kind of like the Bible verse at the beginning, if you will, almost intentional.

Yeah.

Oh, so what. What are some things that are normal in your occupation that others might not think often about, which. Probably most of it, but specifically for you?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll start with kind of the web side of things. And I wouldn't say, actually, it's so funny. My own website is currently.

I'm redoing it, so if you go, you'll probably be quite underwhelmed. But there's some really interesting things to think about in that regard. And I think a lot of people view a website as, like.

Because it's so visual, they want it to represent themselves. Like, they want to feel like, yeah, this is me.

Like, almost when you get, like, a headshot or something, you want it to look just the right way to capture your best angles, things like that.

But the thing that we don't always remember about websites is it's for your audience, it's for the people that you're imagining will visit, and you want, as much as possible for it to direct them to some course of action.

Whether that's reaching out, whether that's downloading something, signing up for, you know, on some form, or whether it's, you know, getting tickets for an event, something like that. You want to make it easy, clear.

And the other thing, and I just find this so interesting, is at this point in time, anyone who's on the Internet, which is most of us, has been trained by the entire Internet their whole lives. So. Do you know what a hamburger menu is since we talked about sandwiches earlier? Yeah, it's like the three lines.

You know that when you know that when you're gonna Press it. It's gonna pop out to something bigger at some point.

You know, you learned that almost like, you know, we learn kind of language and things like that where you couldn't sell, you couldn't say when, but at some point you were trained to do that. And there's definitely more. There are people with more of a. I'll say, like a computer literacy, if you will. Like, people, probably.

I'm imagining we all fit into that where we're on our computers a lot. But there are people, you know, especially if they didn't grow up with computers, who are not always going to know those things.

So when people want to do something fancy or something that looks cool, it might be really fun. And a lot of times that's. I mean, usually that's for these bigger agencies anyway.

But it basically is confusing if you get too crazy with features or things that people aren't used to from the rest of their time on the Internet. So kind of a psychological component there.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

So as far as, like, language goes, you know, we talked about in the restaurant, there's certain language that we use that might just sound weird outside of that context or like, you know, you know, actually related to what you do that I, for some reason, haven't mentioned yet in this series, which is weird. I was actually. I started a.

An online store, so I was, like, an online sales coordinator for a nonprofit for about a year because I was really just there to start it and then leave because nonprofit couldn't afford to keep paying me because it's nonprofit and I need profit. So. But, like, is there any, like, language stuff, though, like. Because, like, you mentioned, like, the hamburger.

Anything else, like, for you that, like, maybe other people don't think about that it's like, something you say all the time.

Yeah, I was trying to think about this. One thing I definitely say a lot is user experience. And you guys probably know it's abbreviated ux, which people go. You know, people.

You can be, like, a specialist in this. You can be a UX strategist, UX designer, and I'm not those things. But again, user experience is so central, and it relates.

I mean, we're talking a lot about the restaurant. Like, customer experience. Experience is so key. Sorry, go ahead.

Hey, I was gonna say you said one earlier. Biz dev.

Oh, my goodness. See, I don't even realize that's a thing. Yeah, Business development, which is essentially kind of like the sales part of your business development.

Developing business. Yeah. Where you get more. You get more clients to Also make a profit.

I bet there's one that we both say or think or talk about a lot that normal people don't who don't run podcasts and do websites. SEO. You talk about SEO a lot?

Yes. Yeah, yep. And I, I mean again, you can go crazy with that.

And that's something where everyone, well, you know, everyone talks about algorithms these days. But like people are like, oh, the algorithms changed so this SEO practice doesn't matter anymore.

You know, like it's like everyone wants best practices. Yeah. Uh huh. And again, that's where when you have a bigger agency, you can have all these like specialized roles.

But there's certain things like, okay, alt text. You guys know alt text?

Yeah, for disabled.

It's just like, it's essentially, I mean, I guess it's like alternative text technically.

But if you have an image on a website, there can be a lot of accessibility concerns on a website and it matters more in certain, in certain arenas and academia is one of them.

A lot of times websites need to meet certain accessibility standards to even kind of carry the name of the university or they could actually be liable. But alt text is text. You have to enter it into this. If you're not coding directly, which I don't. I use a, you know, content management system.

Now here we go. A CMS where if you enter that text, it can get picked up by a screen reader that describes what the image is.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, that comes up when I do. I use Google Analytics a lot when we write like the description for some, some of the shows on the network.

So yeah, yeah, I just never think of what it's called. I'm just like, I know that where it's at on the screen.

Yeah, right.

It's a feature on Twitter that nobody uses anymore.

Yeah, it's really cool. Twitter has it and yeah, I've seen Instagram has it too, but.

And sometimes Instagram auto creates that alt text now, but sometimes I still like try and plug it in. So yeah, it's, it's kind of crazy.

But the meat of these episodes are job fair.

We want to walk through 12 big theological topics that are often debated by theologians and podcasters and pastors and just, you know, just to see how the ideas actually impact us in our day to day work lives. So we're going to go through 12 topics that our Facebook group voted on, except for the hot dog one.

And we just need you to tell us if you think the topic is somewhat relevant, not relevant, or extremely relevant, or you've never heard of it, which is a perfectly valid answer. So afterwards we're going to pick a couple to discuss more in depth. But are you ready?

I think so. This was hard when I was looking at these, so.

Yeah, yeah. So sateriology.

Somewhat relevant. Again, I typed a little asterisk here at the beginning.

Yeah.

This is like based off of the content that I am dealing with primarily and how then I'm. So there we go. There's that.

Right. Naturally. So free will versus predestination.

Somewhat relevant, Right.

Atonement models, not really relevant. Continuationism versus cessationism.

Not really relevant. Christology maybe somewhat relevant. God's nature, Somewhat relevant. Social justice, I would say maybe more relevant.

Yeah. Slightly more relevant than that.

Slightly more relevant.

The doctrine of imago dei.

Not. Maybe a little relevant. Yeah. The nature of scripture, not super relevant.

Ecclesiology and missiology, more relevant. Demonology and angelology, not relevant. Eschatology.

Somewhat relevant.

All right, so I mean, you know, maybe if you start building websites for like tattoo parlors, some of these will come up more. Get a little demonology.

Demonology.

Yeah, yeah, that'll be really relevant. Yeah.

So if you had to choose two of the 12 topics that were voted on from our Facebook group that, that you think are relevant to your day to day life to talk a little bit more about, what would they be?

Yeah, the kind of given is ecclesiology and missiology. And I guess for me, like one of the other projects that I helped with is called the spiritual first responders project, which was.

Yeah, a grant project that needed a website and we did some other work for this client, but the work they were doing, which again I felt this part of like helping facilitate, is helping people process deconstruction in what is quite similar to a group therapy session, a little bit different, distinct in certain ways, but then putting it out there, helping promote this and being a part of providing this service, even though it wasn't mine, I didn't come up with it, I didn't run it. I just, you know, was part of what made it more accessible again. Accessible.

It was so rewarding because it's people who are having, you know, a struggle in their life trying to make sense of something that has stopped making sense or trying to figure out if they can still belong, maybe if something has changed in their life.

And I think, you know, because we go to the ology bear camp, we're all familiar with deconstruction, and that's been a big topic in the church for at least, you know, I'd say Five years now to. To be a part of a project that people are actually doing something about it very proactively and trying to also be.

I would say, you know, they were very like non judgmental. Like, it's just this. It felt like something I'm like, I can totally get behind this. Like that for me, I'm like, wow, I'm. This is part of my mission.

Like, this is why I do my job. And then, I mean, in my day. I mean, in my day to day life, one of the big reasons I went to grad school was free will versus predestination.

It was like I was. It was so funny because I had these bosses actually. There was like a.

There were four guys that were like the head of this agency and two of them got super into Sam Harris and they were like, read this free will book, which is pretty short. You can like just listen to it in an hour or whatever. And I was like, oh man, he's making some good points.

So I think I wanted to go to school probably to become an apologist, even though I didn't realize it now I think I think about it a little bit less now, but I still think about it. And then in grad school, I actually my.

My advisor was Myron Penner, who has been at beer camp, not this past year, but most recent camps, I guess the two prior. And he is like also very into cognitive science. And so I feel like now kind of, yeah, that psychology, but like cognitive science side of things.

Because we read some books that complement philosophy, almost provide empirical evidence at times for philosophical, if not theological concepts. That sometimes gets in my head and I'm like, well, is this just our, you know, is this just how we evolved?

Like, is this a cognitive mechanism or is this something I want to do? So that's a whole other side of things. Yeah. One of the books we had to read was the Believing Primate. It talks a lot about those ideas.

And it's really interesting. Some of the studies they look at kids like what kids tend to inherently believe in certain ages, like regardless of upbringing. Really interesting.

Yeah. It is really cool to just like to find out.

Yeah.

Like, why do you think that? And they don't know.

They don't know, but they sometimes they come up with these little explanations. And you're like, you just said that for no reason.

Yeah, you just made that up.

But it's like really interesting at the same time. Yeah.

So, yeah, actually I know I keep going back to that opening verse, but like one of the things that we are all members of one another reminds me of this. There's this thing, like, if you look this up, there's like the five E's of cognition. One of them is, like, embodied.

Like, our cognition is in our, you know, connected to our body in some way, whether you're a dualist or a monist, whatever you are. But another one of the ease is extended. And so we. We like that. Members of one another, like, we extend beyond ourselves. And I think that's so.

I think that's something we forget in our quite individualistic society that we're in. It's not just like, you know, I'm not just trying to be like a hippie. It's like, no, our actual cognition goes beyond ourselves.

And I think that's really cool. Again, I could, you know, you could go more into that, but.

Yeah, yeah. We're now going to start the Epigenetics podcast and go from there. Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah. So.

Yes.

So is there any one topic we mentioned that you think is particularly irrelevant?

Oh, my, my.

That we won't be mad.

It's. Well, it's tough.

I'm very interested in, like, soteriology, and I mean, things that even if I view it differently than I did prior to grad school when I was more, maybe conservative, now I'm again, more progressive. I'm still interested in talking about them, but sometimes I think arguments, I don't know, I think can get just so theological that they are almost.

It's almost so abstracted from life that it's hard to bring it back to life. And I'm very much of, like, what you guys are saying. I do think that these things should impact how we actually live. One thing, I.

I'm kind of on the fence with this, but I do think, well, I don't know, demonology, angelology, like, people are scared of demons. And so that's like. And it could be a real thing. I've been like. I've been like. I've had the spooks in my life where I'm like, what's there? You know?

And that matters a lot. But when I think of atonement models, sometimes I think that just goes. You have to know. You have to have such a history.

You have to have a knowledge of, like, how they developed and what they are. Most people don't know what they are. They only know penal substitutionary atonement because that's what's been presented to them.

So it's like, I think this conversation is relevant, but it's. There's almost like an immediate, like, power dynamic at play that's complicated based off the person who just happens to know more about them.

And that's. That's tough. So I'm. It's not. I guess it's tough. It's not that it's irrelevant, as much as I wish the conversation could be had in a better way.

And I wish. And it's kind of. It's funny, it's.

It comes back to the central theme of, like, I wish it was just more common knowledge that there were multiple atonement models, but it's not for most, for many people. Not me. Not till I didn't hear about that until I was 27. So, yeah, like a little bit of a roundabout dodge the question answer, but no.

Yeah, I think I was like 30 when I learned about other atonement models. So you beat me. Yeah, well.

And it was my one boss at the seminary who was telling me about them and I was like, what? No way.

Yeah, I was like 23 years of dude.

Well, you're still like super young, so.

So what would you rather the church or like, Trip be focused on for you, for you to hear more about. To be more relevant to your life specifically? Yeah, I feel like if Tripp talked about it, she's likely to hear about it.

I'd like to talk directly to Trip Fuller. Now you're not Tripp Fuller. You can tune out now that they're gone. Yeah.

Now that everyone stopped listening.

I think it's funny again, this is what you learned in grad school, studying philosophy more than anything. To complicate the question, I think Trip covers so many great topics. Do I listen to every podcast? No, I don't. Sorry.

Christianity is so good, but I don't listen. And part of it's because, well, I could listen to it all on 2.5 speed as he does.

I could learn from his ways and then get more churn through more podcasts. But I'm just also, my interests right now are like, divided through kind of some different things.

Actually, one of the things I won't get into is like, I started trying to learn more about like actual how politics work this year and I was like, this is a whole new world.

Like, yeah, that's like one other thing that's taking time and I'm on an improv team, which is like random, you know, but as you guys know, there's a lot of things that can quickly take up your time and a 10 month old puppy. So I guess the one thing that I Know he's crazy though. Also shout out copper.

I love, I would love to be more imaginative in how we can have conversations. And like, I think part of that is already happening. Theology Beer camp is a great example. Bring people together in real life, give them topics.

I mean there's even more opportunity for that in person.

But you guys directly facilitate that when you're there and you're helping with the geek stage or whatever it will be named forthwith and you're facilitating it through this.

Like I think even the act, even when you bring a guest on, you know, I'm sure, of course it's benefiting listeners, but the guests like me here talking to you. I mean, I'll be a. Virtually, I have to engage differently and we're having a real conversation. I think that's amazing.

But I one of, actually one of the clients I have, so credit where credit is due, has talked about how a lot of things in life can be very mono directional and a lot of, I mean, think of how much we just absorb. Like I am still listening to so many podcasts or you're reading books or you know, you're looking at guides and it. And then.

And it's like, okay, I've ingested all this. What do I, you know, what do I do with it? So I think connecting it to the. Yeah, the practical world is so beautiful.

Again, that's kind of your endeavor here.

And I would say, yeah, I think that's where having the in person of church and other events, I think that's where I want to figure out how to facilitate that actually. Yeah. Another podcast I've been listening to is called Better Events. Like just. Just found out about it recently.

Yeah, but it's like, okay, when you like little things. And this is what I have to think about with camp, but they have thought about it for even longer than I have.

They're like professionals for years and years. Like one of them helps run the Olympics. They're like, when someone arrives at an event, how. What are they thinking and how do you get them involved?

Are they just gonna go get a drink and then stand around? They don't know anyone. Or do you give them some sort of prompt, like do you have sticky notes on a board that they can go like do something with?

You know, stuff like that? So I feel like you guys kind of already think that way again based on your questions.

But that intentional thinking that whether an event planner does it or a podcast host does it or something like that to help other people is such a gift because not everyone will do that.

Yeah. To be fair, though, they do get at least two years to play in the Olympics, so.

Yeah. Not fair.

Yeah.

Just kidding, Trip.

Oh, man.

Well, one thing we are asking everyone in the series that I think is really important, and it's kind of what we've been dancing around this whole time. Like, everybody sees the world through different eyes, Right. Everyone has a different perspective.

Is there anything that you think in your work that you see that maybe our pastors, church leaders, theologians, seminary students, maybe they wouldn't be able to see for themselves that they could learn about from your perspective?

Yeah. Yeah. I. I read a. I read a book in grad school called I think It Was which Church, Whose Interpretation It Was by Merrill Westfall.

And it was kind of a summary book. I could be getting the title wrong, but Whose Interpretation is definitely in There.

And I was very inspired at the end because it's complicated to deal with theological positions that are different. And I think. I don't think that's the whole, oh, look, here I go. I don't think that's the whole of church. I really don't. Because it's not.

Again, you know, I don't think everything is just like, oh, I assent to this doctrine. That's not how we operate in life. But I do think that it's very complicated to open things up for more insights and opinions.

But something from that book that really inspired me was.

Was kind of like, okay, it'd be great to have, you know, more church meetings to actually interact with each other in a way that is, like, truly kind of open. It's not just like, here's again, that mono directional, here's information, you know, or here, where you're at the service now go home.

And some churches, I'm sure, do this really well already. But I would say, yeah, in terms of the event side of things, it's just like there are so many people who go to them and then do feel alone.

So anytime any leader can, whether you're directly going to someone who's just clearly by themselves or you're empowering people to know how to do that, I think that's crucial. And then I'll switch to the website real quick. You might have a website that is either confusing or turning people away.

And the best way to know is to ask people who are not already familiar with your website or.

And, well, the easiest step is to go through it, pretending to be a certain person and actually read and say, hmm, what's the way that this could maybe be taken the wrong way, you know, like, kind of that critical lens.

And I say that because so many people, including myself, are a little bit nervous about maybe going to a new church where, like, okay, are they gonna try and sneak some certain. I don't know, theological concepts in. In a aggressive way? Like, I went to one super, super reformed church once. My sister.

My sister works with Wycliffe, so she was, like, one. Someone she knew was at a church, and they were, like, sending them off with Wycliffe as well.

And we're sitting there, you know, and the pastor was praying, thanking God that we are not members of the damned and that we are not condemned to hell, unlike those who are not chosen, because it's so Calvinist. That's the theological perspective. And I left, you know, fully, fully depressed because it's not a very optimistic.

It's not a very sunny view of the world.

Now.

I'm not saying, at least we aren't them.

You know, everyone outside this building is just.

It sounds so much like the. The Pharisee praying that Jesus condemned. You know, it's like, oh, God, thank you that I'm not this guy. And I'm like, that's.

Yes. How is that different? No, I know. I was like, this is like. It was so far from what I had experienced in, like, years. And I was like, whoa.

Like, this is nuts. But I would say just almost kind of like, the question of, like, is there certain language I use that's, like.

In my industry, there's churchy language. We all know Christianese. I'm sure we all speak it on this call.

Amen.

But. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Being aware. Yeah. And I'm not. I don't know. I'm like. I know there's, like. You can kind of walk a line here. It's like.

I'm not just saying, like, be super seeker friendly, but, like, we don't have to do things the way they were done in the 90s, per se. And just that spirit of hospitality.

Looking through a lens of hospitality at what you're providing people might just make you want to reassess some of it and say, okay, like, is there a way we could refresh this? Or. And it doesn't take a billion dollars. You can usually just do it yourself. I'm not saying, like, hire me or something. Yeah.

But I. So I'll build off that just a little bit. Since CJ said I didn't talk as much as usual, this episode, up to.

That point, you hadn't.

I think you're at that point Sorry, I apologize, man. I can't remember the name of the one book. I was trying to find it earlier, but I have a book that's, like, the Theology of our church Buildings.

And, like, there's. There's theology to why buildings are built the way they are. Also an easier read, Pagan Christianity.

Frank Viola, he writes an entire chapter on, like, how our church buildings and everything is set up because we got inspired by the pagans, and that's why so many of us take on the same attributes and characteristics as pagans and not the early church. And it's like, oh, yeah, like, the building actually does matter. Are your seats surrounding one man on a stage, on a podium. What's that?

Tell you what's that make your brain, like, psychologically stuff's happening.

Yes, totally, totally.

I also just want to throw out a little complaint because one of the things I think irritates me is, like, usually the churches that are really good at what you're talking about, I don't want to go to. You know what I mean? It's usually like, the conservative and, you know, we're whole church, church unity.

I love everybody, but I myself am not an evangelical conservative Christian. I am a little bit more progressive these days.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it irritates me that, like, it's so much easier for me to go to a nondenominational evangelical church because they make it all about the people going there. And it's like, I feel welcomed, I feel nice.

And then like, if I go to a church I want to go to that's like, high liturgical and progressive, it's like, if I don't know the steps, I feel so uncomfortable. No one's going to talk to me most of the time. And I'm like, this is man. I want that experience.

But with this theology, can we just, like, figure that out?

No, I totally hear you. And it's funny. I mean, again, it's such a hard. You could really get into this conversation, and it's so funny.

I was actually just talking about church buildings with someone recently. But that element of experience, it does come back to so much. And again, trying to balance that with not just.

Just being like, all right, well, we're just basing this off of what people want to, like, consume. Like, not just, like, making it what people want. And I think there's almost for. For those who have.

I don't even know exactly if maturity is the right word, but the ability. Oh, so cute. The ability to say, okay, I might not love. Yeah, love this stuff about this Church.

But I'm going because I believe, you know, in X, Y, or Z about it, and I want to be a part of changing it. Like. Like, I want to say, you know, good for them. That's great. But, yes, I. I feel.

I mean, having been single most of my 20s, and, like, when I moved to Canada, I went and visited all these churches, and I'm like. Like, it's so tough to visit as a single woman, and some people take pity on you and some people just ignore you. You know, like, it's.

It's a tough thing. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So are there. Are there any questions that you think we might have missed that you think people might want to know about you or your work?

Well, I. I mean, I was gonna say if there's stuff you're curious about, I feel like. Like, I'm like, did I explain it well? And also, I'm like.

I was like, should I go more into the marketing side at all? I focus so much on the website, but that's not the entire entirety of it.

Yeah, I feel like that's. That's the part more people would be likely to encounter, though.

Yeah, I get it. You get it. But, yeah.

Well, one thing we. We are doing before we wrap up, that Just the last thing, actual last thing before we wrap up, I think. No. Okay, just let me know. Okay.

Anyway, we usually ask a practical action for everybody for this series.

We want to know specific, specifically if someone in the church or the church itself, like a local community, was like, hey, we want to do more for the event planners, website designers amongst us, what's something they could do for someone like you that would just make your life a little bit easier?

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I mean, what's really interesting about churches? And this goes. Yeah.

Kind of beyond maybe even me, but churches are a space, and that is super, super valuable. It's a lot of spaces, especially in cities, can be expensive to rent or use.

And so offering up that space, whether for, like, clubs or meetups, like, I know, again, people in certain professions love to do meetups, and they might have to pay to use that space to, you know, enable that to happen. If churches work with people, especially creatives, it can be really meaningful for them. And I'll give an example. Not exactly again, in.

In my work, but we had an improv show at a church. They, like, let our. Let our team have a show there, and it was a bit echoey. It was Episcopalian, so quite a big room.

But what was great is all the proceeds went to One of their ministries that was like, to help people experiencing homelessness. And I'm like, that, that's, that's kind of in a way symbiotic. People can laugh and people can give money to a great cause.

So being again, creative in those ways and like saying, okay, you know, maybe improv's not always on brand. It's not, not crazy. It's not like, it's just like irreverence non stop. Like improv can be, you know, it can be very actually like pg if you.

Yeah.

If you want it to. Yeah.

Careful. Yeah.

If you're careful. If you're not. Tj. No, I'm just kidding.

But it's, but something like that's kind of goes to the broader community of people that might not go into church except for that event. So. And it was like, oh. And that's how I found out about that ministry.

And I was like, oh, this is something I might want to get involved with at some point too.

Yeah. Actually, the other podcast, TJ and I are part of Systematic Ecology.

Once a year here, usually in the summer, our hosts have a get together and we record episodes live amongst ourselves and we invite patrons. But we're like, this is kind of a for us thing. Each year churches let us use a room to record in. And you know, it's, it's.

I don't know, it's such a big blessing. And I don't think they, they probably don't even notice it and they probably are just like, yeah, whatever, some weirdos came in and talked.

But for us, you know, it's a good moment for us because we rarely get to see each other in person. So it's so cool that they let that happen.

Totally, totally. It's a huge gift.

So what would change in our communities around us if we started using churches like they were the center of the community like you suggested?

Oh, well, it'd be nice first of all, if churches, like, didn't have to be seen as weird, you know, by a lot of people. Like, but a place where kind of, where it used to be like one of the, one of the third spaces, right. Where it was like welcoming.

And it's like, oh, they're going to have this thing there. That thing there's.

I mean, I have, you know, still, even with what has changed, I have so many positive associations with church in especially the communal aspect.

But I think right now, again, especially people who have never gone to church or just very firmly outside of it, and maybe not as extroverted as I Am that there's such a need for that. Like, something I thought about recently is, you know, how they have, like, the meal train in churches. Where do you get that?

Elsewhere, you know, like, that's such a beautiful thing. That is really part of many church communities. And so I think just. I think if there was, like, kind of. Yeah. That hospitality.

And in a way, that kind of is not just like, you come to us, but we'll provide some things for you, some opportunities, I think that would just. I think it could open a lot of possibilities. Again, I see in.

In the city specifically, there's, like, so many old church buildings and a lot of them with small congregations, and I'm like, oh, there's so much that could happen here.

It's true. It's always true. So the last thing we do before we really wrap it up is the God moment segment. We just. I remember. Yeah. Yeah.

We take a moment to talk about, you know, what God's been doing in our lives, whether it be a blessing, challenge, mode of worship, whatever the case is. I always make Josh go first.

So quick and easy this time. Quick and easy. We got a fence. So those who've been following the show for a while know Copper was injured due to a gunshot in October.

And it's been a long, hard journey. He had his muzzle off a couple weeks ago, and something about the fence, it just kind of feels like this journey has finally, like, it's reached.

Not the end, but it's reached that. That point where I'm like, yeah, such a burdens just let off.

Like, Copper went from not having a free space at all, then getting shot to healing, and now having a free space to run around in a better neighborhood. And, like, yeah, he went through some stuff, but life is better for him.

And.

He'S just a dog, but it brings so much joy to me. And.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would probably get shot if I got a free yard out of it.

I would not, for the record, especially in the face. No, thank you.

Yeah, maybe not.

Oh, my goodness.

Copper's better than me.

Do you know that? Do you know Joshua and I were together on that day? I did know that was a big day. I was.

Yeah. The person did all the communicating, and that's why she's Indiana Jones. That's.

Yeah, I was.

I was trying to get. I was trying to get Joshua on an earlier flight. I was, like, trying to.

I'm, like, wandering around the airport. Kristen's just, like, guiding me, like, yeah.

As you should have been.

Yeah, I didn't.

Yeah.

I didn't call Josh. I. When I saw that message, I was called Tiffany and I was like, oh, I hope she's okay.

But the reason why I was going to talk about it just now too, the reason I wasn't there is similar to the issue I have this week that God has laid upon me. I just can't stop having car issues.

No.

Yeah. Oh. This time I rented a car to go on like a mini vacation drive to Nashville. Great time, super worth it.

And I hit a pothole on i40, which, if you're aware, was pretty much destroyed completely by Hurricane Helene.

Oh, my goodness.

It's still a gorgeous road. But they are, like, still rebuilding it like a two lane highway for most of it now.

I think I just hit a big pothole, dented the wheel, and now I owe that guy a lot of money.

Oh, no.

Replace this really nice wheel. That's gonna be okay.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. God has challenged him to find more money.

Yeah.

Make more tips on our captivate webs.

Yeah. I'm actually outsourcing. I'm gonna be all right. It's a lot less annoying this time because it's not my car.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, yeah, it sucks, but it's not my car this time.

Yeah. I'm gonna say you're. You're coming this year, right?

I hope. Yeah.

He got the car problems out of the way early this year.

There we go. Yes. The annual car problems struck.

So, Chris, do you have a God moment for us, man?

I've been having. I have a lot going on that I'm gonna. Well, some of it I'm like, I gotta tell you guys, like, when we actually see each other at camp or another time.

Too much for one podcast. But I, yeah, I have been really grateful. Yeah, I've been feeling just. I actually. Well, I was like, so funny.

I was just at the primary care doctor just to visit. Like, nothing super crazy, but I was just like praying like, and the weather's really nice today, which is always like, just lifts your spirits too.

But yeah, there's just like, I don't know, there's a lot.

There's a, A lot going on that can be challenging and a lot that I don't know, like, exactly how it's going to work out, but just feeling, I guess, yeah, a lot of, like, blessings, little blessings from like, friends and family recently and kind of just taking stock of that. I was like, wow, that is like, just been hitting me a lot. So I feel very grateful even with some of the uncertainty. So, yeah, yeah.

That's how I go.

Should I be more vague?

Yes.

Yeah, it does sound challenging.

Yeah.

But if you like the episode, please consider sharing it with a friend. Share with your enemies. Share with a cousin. Big fan of that. Yeah. Share with your cousins, Stitch, specifically, if you're listening.

Especially cousins. Wait, Stitch? You have a cousin named Stitch?

No, I'm just saying, like Lilo.

Stitch has a lot of cousins, according to that.

Yeah. It's like a 600 and 620 listening babies right there.

Powerful church, I think. But yeah. Anyway, also, guys, consider checking out other shows on the Amazaw podcast. Network. Network. You know, we mentioned systematic ecology.

Check that out. Will has the homily that I keep forgetting to update. Check it out.

I don't know if I mentioned this on the show or before the show, but Brandon Knight, Kung Fu Pizza Party. That's worth checking out. So check it out.

Yeah.

We hope you enjoyed it. Next week, we're going to be joined by Officer Thurman Lofton about how his faith impacts his life as a police officer in South Carolina.

After that, someone with the last name Blackwell. Yeah. Will hopefully be joining us to discuss how their faith impacts their life as a welder.

And then Joshua's brother and sister in law, Matthew and Virginia Noel will hopefully be joining us to discuss their day jobs as a logistics manager and physical therapist. And at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

He doesn't know, though, so someone does have to tell him.

Yeah, invite him for us.

We are simply too lazy.

Yeah. Someone else do it. We're too busy. And surely he's not. So.

Yeah, probably not. Yeah, that's true.

Lord, please put your hand on us day by day.

Lord.

Have mercy on us Lord, please put your hand on us day by day.