The conflict between the Federation and Zeon in Gundam is a hot topic, and Christian Ashley and TJ Blackwell dive right into the thick of it, asking the burning question: whose side are we really on? They explore the Universal Century timeline, unraveling the web of motivations, ideals, and the often murky morality that defines this iconic series. Christian lays out the historical backdrop, highlighting how the struggle for representation and rights fuels the fire of rebellion among the space colonies. Meanwhile, TJ, with his fresh perspective, brings a humorous touch as they banter about the complexities of allegiance in a world where both factions have their share of villains and heroes. They aim to find the good in these polarized sides, while reminding listeners that sometimes, it’s all just a giant robot fight dressed up in political drama.

In the latest episode of Systematic Geekology, the hosts dive into the complex universe of Gundam's Universal Century, tackling the age-old question: whose side are we really on? With Christian Ashley leading the charge and TJ Blackwell by his side, listeners are treated to a casual yet insightful exploration of the intricacies of the Earth Federation versus the Xeon conflict. The duo playfully banters about their own backgrounds in the Gundam lore, with Christian having a wealth of knowledge while TJ admits to being a bit of a newbie. As they dissect the timeline, listeners are introduced to key figures like Zeon Daikun, the idealist behind the Xeon movement, and the infamous Zabi family, who seize power amidst the chaos. The episode cleverly juxtaposes the political struggles within the Gundam universe with real-world parallels, emphasizing the moral gray areas that exist in both realms. Christian's enthusiasm for the rich narrative history shines through as he explains pivotal events like the One Year War and the rise of mobile suits, all while keeping the conversation light and engaging through witty remarks and humorous exchanges with TJ. By the end of their discussion, listeners are left pondering their own allegiances in this epic saga, as the hosts encourage them to reflect on the deeper meanings behind the battles fought in space and the human experiences that drive them.

Takeaways:

• The Universal Century timeline of Gundam is intricate and spans various conflicts and factions, making it a rich subject for discussion.
• Christian and TJ humorously navigate their differing levels of knowledge about Gundam, creating a light-hearted banter throughout the episode.
• The discussion touches on serious themes like representation and government oppression, showing how Gundam reflects real-world issues.
• Listeners are encouraged to dive into the Gundam series, regardless of where they start, as it’s become more accessible than ever.

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Whose side are we on in the many wars of the Universal century? We're going to be asking this question and a lot more on today's episode of Systematic Ecology. We are the Priests of the Geeks.

I'm your host, Christian Ashley as Today we're going to be going through the history of the Universal century timeline of Gundam, the first of the many universes created in that. You've heard us talk about it before.

And it's not just me, of course, the other person, one of the other people who was on that episode, TJ Blackwell. How's it going, tj? You know, the inventor of Gundams himself? Yep. Yes.

One of my more well known accolades actually.

Yeah, well, it's really impressive, but I mean, when you're judging against the other impressive feats that you're done, I mean, like, what's the tier list?

Yeah, right. Like some things have to fall by the wayside.

So before we go any further, I do want to say something. My co host here is not as well versed in the Universal Century side of the Gundam fandom as was assumed by a certain someone else.

So I'm going to be doing a lot of the heavy lifting here and TJ is going to be reacting based on what information I present him. So if you think I come with a biased point of view, feel free to call me out. And don't be angry at TJ because it would have been my fault.

For the record, I do think he's here with a biased point of view. I'm actually quite certain of it. So.

Yes. Yes. So now that we've got that out of the way, tj, what have you been geeking out on recently?

Very, very recently. As in the last time my computer was on. Arc Raiders. Arc Raiders. Brand new Extraction shooter.

It's. It's a.

It's a great time. I had so much fun. I got on, I played for like four hours straight, went straight to sleep, woke up, went to work.

And if we weren't doing this, I'd probably be doing that right now.

It's a good thing you got the rest of the night then.

Yeah. Nope. I have plans to try the new Taco Bell Baja Blast Pie.

I did see that advertised the other day, so. Good luck.

Thank you. I honestly, I think it's gonna be pretty good. It probably is just like a sweeter key lime pie, if I had to guess.

Okay. Yeah, me, I just recently finished the main story for Pokemon Legends. Za.

I just got my shiny charm and I'm going around exploring things using A new way to catch shinies that way. I'd give it a 7.5 out of 10. It's nothing offensive. It's nothing great. It's fun. It's fine. So that's that.

We're going to be moving on today to our topic of discussion, of course, being part of our finding the good series we have in the Gundam Universal Century timeline. And we'll get to like what that means in a second. There are different timelines in the Gundam series.

If you haven't watched our listened to our old Gundam episode, I'd recommend you do that. There was also one way before I came on. I think it was Joe and Brandon that did that one, if I'm remembering correctly.

So you can check that one out too. So there are two main sides today, that of course being the Federation, Earth Federation, and then the Xeon of, you know, the Space Noids.

So tj, with what you do know, what can you tell me about just Gundam as a whole?

Gundam as a whole, As a whole.

What. What have you experienced? So for people who haven't listened those episodes, like what. What have you watched?

Wing V. Iron Blooded Orphans. And those are xx. Is that what it's called?

Yeah, afterward. Gundam X. Yeah, yeah, afterward.

But that's pretty much it.

I just.

That just happened as like. It was like a library rental and it looked cool because it was big robots. So I watched that.

Didn't really retain much of it, but I like Iron Blooded Orphans a lot. That's my favorite.

That's a good one.

That's really the only one that had lasting, you know, power with me. And then everything else is just kind of like Twitter threads, you know, cool clips, Gundam tier lists, that kind of thing.

Yes.

So yeah, big Iron Blooded Orphans guy though.

And Sunrise and was unfortunately a little canceled before its time because it wasn't. The toys weren't selling as much.

However, as time went on with reruns with toy selling a lot better, they were given a chance to get a sequel series that of course being Zeta Gundam, which led to more success. You get Double Zeta, you get the Char's Counterattack movie. Then we go into OVAS that they've done 79 and 83. 87. Excuse me, not. Let me say that again.

79 and 83 as well as an 80amongst other things.

We get the Victory Gundam and things go poorly because Tomino's in the midst of another bout of depression and dealing with the execs at Sunrise and that kind of kills the Universal Century for a little bit. There are other things I didn't mention that of course are a part of it, but we'll get to those when we get to them.

By the way, we're not covering the entire uc. We're focusing primarily on what would be the era from original Mobile Suit Gundam to Unicorn.

Obviously not covering everything that happens in there, but enough to like get to that part for the purposes of our conversation. Because there are aspects of Xeon still in, you know, the Unicorn time.

Yeah.

And of course you have plenty of other aus. Go ahead.

Yeah, like we can't. You cannot possibly think that you're going to get all of the available Gundam information from this episode.

You could do a podcast series with as many episodes as Systematic Ecology currently has about Gundam and still not cover.

It all so early to do when you have 40, 50 episodes a season. Until we get to modern times where we can't do that anymore for some reason.

Yeah. Iron Blooded orphan.

Yeah, man. Which from Mercury deserved better as far as episode length.

I did watch a couple of which for Mercury actually on that too.

And G Quacks. They both deserve better.

So anyways, then you have your alternate timeline set, of course being where Gundams are in a series, but it has next to nothing to do with the original Universal Century. That is the official kind of timeline given for the main Gundam series. And there are spin offs, alternate timelines, so on, so forth.

You get, you know, G Gundam, Gundam Wing, After War, Gundam X Gundam Seed, so on and so forth. There's plenty of others I could say. We're not going to just list off everything that ever happened.

And I got into the series, much like a lot of people my age when, you know, Gundam Wing started airing on Toonami. And to this day it's still one of my favorites. It's not the best series, but you know what? I love it and it helped me get into the Gundam fandom.

So since then I've watched everything they've put out, except for like some of the SD stuff, which is like not really my thing. And the Build some of the Build series because I couldn't care about the Gunpla aspects. My hands are worthless.

So why would I ever care about a series based around buying mobile suits and making them yourselves? It's not for me.

I Do think the Gunpla is, like, maybe the coolest part maybe?

Absolutely. I mean, they make some great designs throughout, you know, the history of the show.

And, I mean, the different universes that, you know, we experience here, so. I know. I understand. That's where they. It's just not for me. But I'm grateful that other people can get enjoyment out of that. I'll put it that way.

So, tj, since you haven't watched all this, I'm going to help explain the Federation and Xiyun conflict, and we're gonna somehow make an episode out of this. You good? Oh.

Oh, I'm good. I'm good. I think for.

Oh, man.

Brevity's sake or levity's. Levity's sake? No, I was gonna mix it up anyway. I'm gonna go through what I think of each of these factions we have listed.

Okay.

And then we'll let you say what they actually are. As someone with very little UC experience.

I'll go for it.

So the Federation, the Xeon. As far as I'm concerned, the Federation is Space Great Britain.

All right?

Xeon, to my knowledge, are Nazis. That might apply more to one of, like, the Xeon offshoots. Not sure. I haven't seen the uc. The Titans, they. They hate colonists. They.

They like to.

They like to oppress the colonists. I'm pretty sure. A EUG Is that after Earth?

No. No.

Okay, cool, Then I don't know that acronym at all.

Then.

I don't know them. And, yeah, that's pretty much where I'm standing.

Okay. Okay. So by going through these, you know, rather systematically, one by one, we'll start with the Federation Xeon conflict.

So, basically, Earth has gotten to the point where it's overpopulated, and they decided to go to the stars and put people there.

There's a mix of them getting rid of kind of the dregs that are population, but also people who really wanted to go to space and make a new life for themselves, you know, reduce the overpopulation on Earth. So they create these things, these colonies in space called sides, which orbit around. Orbit around the Earth, the moon.

And then as time advances later on, we get to other planets and the like, depending on when in the timeline we are now as a result of this, conflict arises between the sides, the colonies that want to represent themselves, and then the Earth Federation, which has said, well, we made you, therefore we represent you. And I'm dumbing down a lot of this, but it gets to the point where there's a Revolutionary in want to say side three, whose name is.

He is the titular founder of Xeon, and he's an idealist. He wants to create a world where the space noise, which is kind of the term they give to people who live in space now, Earth Noid. Space noids.

Give them some representation or just be able to be an independent government from Earth. And it gets really popular, and there's uprisings that are called on the Earth and on the colonies as well.

And he is seemingly assassinated or just seemingly dies in ways that look like it could be assassinated. It's debated to this day what actually happened. And then we get the good old Zabi family. Go ahead.

The war was about states rights.

Oh.

That'S what I'm hearing about states. Right.

It hasn't happened yet. So Degwen Zabi, the head of the Zabi family, of which there are many children abounding, takes over for Daikon.

Goodness gracious, why can't I remember names off the top of my head? Who, you know, led the initial principality of Xeon.

So he then goes a little more forceful with creating mobilization of mobile suits, which at this time were experiments with technology.

But space being what it was, it was a lot easier to make them there because they're not as affected, you know, by the gravity of the Earth and stuff like that. So.

So the Federation was behind on a lot of that technology, and they were able to finally create mobile suits to where they're able to be used in war. And they had an early advantage in what is known as the One Year War. And that is where we start Mobile Suit Gundam. A little halfway through that war.

Don't at me at the actual time.

I didn't look at the date where we get, you know, Amuro and the crew of the White Base being thrown into this war after their colony is being attacked by Zeon, who has found out that the Federation has made a superior mobile suit known as a Gundam, and that through that, Amara is able to take the Gundam and then try and bring it back to Earth. And through no, like really wanting to, he kind of ends up becoming a figure of the Federation in that extent. All right, so how you feeling so far?

Okay, I'm there. I'm on the level. I think I've cracked the code. Okay, I understand.

Well, let's hope so.

So moving on from there, after the events of the One Year War, where the Zabi family is essentially destroyed through, you know, different assassination attempts, some from within, some from an individual known as Shar, who is the son of Zeon Daikun and has gone into hiding using the the typical mask you'll see in a Gundam series.

The Shark Clone is a huge trope of the person who conceals themselves, obviously for reasons to protect their identity, but also to have nefarious schemes, more than likely to take over something else or to get revenge or something like that. And they are defeated in the final battle of the One Year War.

And a temporary kind of peace is established where, you know, some concessions are given to them, some concessions are given to the Earth Federation.

But four years later, there's the Operation Stardust, which you see in an ova where Xeon is trying sees that the Federation is doing something it shouldn't be doing as far as mobile suit mobilization goes in and try and capture it for themselves. And it's a lot of wacky hijinks to happen.

Easy way to put it is that a new group is established on the Earth Federation, known as the Titans, in response to this attack by the Xeon. They're saying, well, they're still out there. Earth isn't safe anymore, so we're going to be the protectors acting beyond the laws of the Federation.

They're kind of their own little separate, not really a private military corporation or anything, but they basically operate as one. So that then leads to the war that happens in 87 or 85, right? No. Goodness gracious. I can't remember off top of my head.

Somewhere in that area where we get, you know, Camille coming into the Gundam and then joining what is now known as the Ayug. That is something that's created in the midst of all this. It's Anti Earth Union Group.

And this is founded by people who would be Federation citizens for the most part. And they see like the growing nature of the Titans and how they're repressing people and doing things extra judiciary and stuff like that.

So they're resisting their own government at the same time.

Zeon is the remnants of that are gathering more power for themselves, which leads into the events of Devil Zeta, which is far better than a lot of people want to say it is, where they've gained more power and they're fighting both the Auk and the Earth Federation at the same time. Any thoughts?

Yeah, I was pretty much right after Earth Union Group. It's pretty close to what I was expecting.

I mean, right there on the cusp of it.

That's pretty close.

Yeah. So Neo Zeon is the group that's founded from the remnants of Zeon. They're like taking kind of the legacy of it. And eventually they are defeated.

Haman Khan, their leader, is beaten with the efforts of Judo, greatest Gundam protagonist of all time.

That then leads to the Shar's Counterattack movie, where a couple years after that, Char takes over the remnants of Zeon again and puts himself in charge and he tries to destroy the Earth, but not completely, but essentially do what is known as a colony drop, which was the first thing that kind of happened, I've got to mention, in the One Year War, where an entire side was basically thrown into the Earth and destroyed. Sydney, Australia. So he's trying to do it even bigger than that. And through the efforts of the movie, some peace is achieved.

After Amuro and he both kind of disappear. It's very debated on what actually happens to them. Whether they kind of ascend to a higher plane of existence or just die.

It's kind of up to you to figure it out for yourself. But there's still something left behind.

And that is, of course, some remnants of Zeon who then end up years later forming the sleeves, who are fighting against the Earth Federation again, because they still are fighting for some of their rights, and they're going to take on some of the more fascistic implications of what Zeon kind of had in certain parts of it. And as someone who named Full Frontal. Don't laugh.

Who is kind of pretending to be Char or says he's a clone or what have you, it's one of those things that's also hotly debated. And the midst of the conflict that happens there is finding out this MacGuffin that's known as Laplace's Block.

Excuse me, Box, which was something that was founded in UC Year one, where eventually there was supposed to be a charter made that would have given rights to Space Noids that they had been fighting for this whole time. But there was a terrorist attack that happened there, so the guy who was orchestrating it died. And those reforms didn't come to be.

So that's one of the main conflicts of Unicorn.

So Unicorn is about states rights?

Oh, yes, of course. That's all the Gundam is. It's about states rights. It's about states rights and the war of Federation aggression and human rights.

Eventually.

Yes, yes.

All right, so tj, now that I've given you a very dumbed down version of all the events that happen in some of these shows, why don't we pick a side for each other? I mean, we pick our own side. Federation Z, I'm putting you on Titan side. Defend the Titans. No. Who are you picking in this?

Yeah, I might. I don't know. It's hard to argue with the preconceived notion that I had of Zeon's Nazism. So I may. I may stick to that viewpoint.

And I might be Federation. I do currently live on Earth, so it does feel like I'm a little biased.

Yeah, well, that's because your soul is weighed down by gravity. But you know what? We'll get there. Maybe so. Okay, so for the purposes of this, I will be taking on Xeon's side and arguing for them.

So.

So you picked a little bit of why. Is there anything else you want to add about why you wanted to pick the Federation over Xeon? Nope. Okay, that's fair. So Xeon.

I'm picking them because you know what? They got hurt. They got hurt pretty bad. You send.

Yeah, not everyone that was sent up in the space was like a drag of society, but you send them up there, you. You kind of force a lot of them up there. And then you also don't want them to give your basic human rights that everyone else has.

Not to say that the Federation takes every right away from them, but they want representation for themselves.

You know, speaking as a nation that was created for one of the reasons was to have representation in government and was refused that and then rebelled because of it. I get the noble sentiment behind it because they need it. If you don't have someone looking out for you, then the man is going to take you down.

So, yeah, seek Zeon all the way.

Mm. So I do understand where you're coming from, but to me, it is more of an analog to the current United States and Puerto Rico.

Okay.

So instead of it being the, you know, 13 colonies and great Britain, where, you know, we're like basically at least a full month apart at the time, the connection between the sleeves and the Federation is, I assume, at least a lot. A lot faster than that. A lot more streamlined than that.

Well, sleeves is years later, but, you know.

You know what I mean?

So to me, it's more like modern day United States of Puerto Rico, where a lot of Puerto Ricans do want to be independent and they feel like it would be better for their country. But a lot of Puerto Ricans still want to be associated with the United States and prefer that because of the benefits it gives them.

So for that reason, I just can't side with Zeons. This is not me speaking out against the Puerto Rican Independence Party. For the record, I know some people in the Independence Party.

They're great people and if that's what Puerto Rico wants, I have no say in the matter. If Puerto Rico thinks it'd be better for him, go for it.

But the difference is Puerto Rico has had multiple opportunities to vote on the issue and they keep sticking to the Commonwealth thing, which I prefer them as a state personally. But you know what, they can vote whatever they think is best for them.

But that's the thing though, is that the space noids weren't getting that they didn't have that opportunity. It wasn't gifted to them or, you know, something that should have been gifted to them. They should have had it to begin with.

And now they're having to fight for their ability to self govern and look out for themselves because some big wig on Earth who has never been to one of those sides is now making decisions for them. Like, where's the fairness in that?

I understand, I understand what you're saying. Yeah.

So let us go ahead. Let's defend the other side real quick. You want to go first? Do you want me to go defend.

Your side, Zeon side?

Yes. Okay.

So I do understand where Xeon's coming from. As an American, I do get it. You know, representation is extremely important.

And when you are being deprived of what seems to you to be basic human rights, you know, things get a little testy and you, you might want to revolt a little bit. I think, you know, current day society.

Reflects that pretty well.

There are people who aren't getting food, water, housing. Like there's a lot.

It's a lot.

And you know, I've heard rumbles of people who would love to revolt, people who are represented. So, yeah, it's hard for me to completely disparage ceon, so I see the appeal. I'll say I get it.

Fair enough. Yeah. And you know, the Federation itself, it's one of the things you see over the series is that it is corrupt.

Like they had the wrong people in power. Outside, you got people like General Revel doing their thing. You got people like Bright Noah attempting to make changes.

That's why he joins the Ayug to try and reform the Earth itself. But unfortunately it leads to things like the Titans because they're acting repressive.

But at the same time, to give them their credit, they have plenty of things to say against this, you know, Zeon, because it's not maintained by the person who started it.

And there's some evidence to suggest that assassination was held by the Zabi family to take over the political, you know, control of, you know, side three and then establish themselves in charge. That's never been confirmed one way or the other.

There's a deleted scene in the original Gundam that would have actually stated that out loud, but since that's deleted, it's not actually canon at the moment. So you've got these upstarts who, yeah, they were involved with, you know, Zeon Daikun and you know, part of the force behind it, but they've.

Instead of establishing him as like a prime minister figure or president, which is kind of what he was going for, they've basically set themselves up as dictators and emperors, which goes against some of the reforms that he was calling for. So I mean, you started this movement and now you've shifted into a different direction and I mean, how can you say you're representing the people?

You're just looking out for yourself.

Yeah, it's definitely different when the original man with the idea knew that absolute power corrupts absolutely and was trying to avoid that and got killed and replaced by someone who wanted absolute power creating another corrupt organization. So I think the real moral of the story is that the government is.

Bad.

And that applies to all of them.

So one thing that Tomino is big on is the idea of establishing gray versus gray morality. I mean, he's used different terms than that. He doesn't prefer black and white villainy or anything like that.

This was also created in a time where most mobile suit series or Mecca series in general would have been, oh no, aliens are attacking Earth. They're led by this evil empire.

16 year old kid, maybe sometimes younger, is gifted a mobile suit by his dad or grandfather or what have you and saves the Earth. And you know what, that's fine. I love those shows. I'll watch them every day.

Yeah, I like seeing them beat up, you know, these giant dinosaur Mecca or what have you. It's fun. But as far as like more compelling storyline. A more compelling storyline.

Tony decided to do human versus human and establish reasons for why this group can believe that they're right. Why this group can believe they're right because the Federation created the sides so they do have control over them by default.

So that makes sense to me about that same time. One of the things this is still debated to this day, you know, Goodness Gracious, almost 50 years after the fact. Or is it 50 years after the fact?

No, during time, no, almost 50 years, is that both sides do kind of have a point then. There are bad elements within both to justify saying I'm fighting against that.

But there's also plenty of people working you know, to bring peace or to help protect civilians or something like that. And obviously the shows themselves take more of a Federation bent.

They ultimately go, it's better to have a more corrupt kind of democracy than it is to have, you know, a more imperialistic tones and something like that, which I understand, and I'm ultimately, if we were actually, you know, arguing and decided to be a little more on the Federation side, but at the end of the day, they both suck.

They're being mishandled by people who aren't looking out in the best interest of the people that they're governing, which is also one of Tomino's points. So that's where we stand on that.

So, tj, since you haven't actually watched any of these shows, you can't answer this question that well about who your favorite character from any side of this conflict would be, unless you want to throw out some random guess for many of the proper nouns I threw out today. So that's my guy.

Definitely Char. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

I mean, he. He's. He's stylish.

That's how you leave an impact.

He's got a red mobile suit, and it moves three times faster than the other ones. It's awesome. I get it.

It does that because it's red.

Yes. And that's where some of that meme originates from, is the original series and his PM being called the Red Comet, having that mobile suit.

So Char is a great one.

And of course, in Zeta, you know, where he shows up as Quattro Bagena and many, many jokes have been made, and I'm not going to repeat today because this is a family show about that name where he actually starts joining the AU and helping them out, you know, pretending that he's not actually Shar, and he's pretty obvious that he is.

And then I would argue when, you know, they don't put him in Double Zeta, that we don't see the shift from where he's at at the end of Zeta to where we see him at the start of Char's counter attack, which kind of weakens his characterization for me, but that's fine. You know what? Char is a solid choice. He's one of people's favorite characters from Gundam of all time.

So that's an easy choice to make, you know, having actually not seen the program in question. So I can't blame you there. For me, I've already mentioned his name earlier.

My boy, Judo Ashto, he's just a kid on one of these sides up in space, and He's a dealing in junk and scrap that he finds while at the same time trying to put his sister through school because he actually cares about her getting an education. He's got a bunch of scamps as friends who are not like the roughest people in the world, but they're not exactly the softest either. They happen upon.

After the events of Zeta, the Gundam, he takes control of it and he is awesome. Yeah, he has moments. Every Gundam protagonist has that moment where they're down in the dumps and I need someone to help bring him out of it.

But most of the time he brings himself out. There's no reason to bright slip him as much as like other Gundam protagonists.

Like when Wong, who has beaten up Camille so many times, tries to do the same thing on judo, what does he do? He beats the hell out of him. And I love him for it. The chemistry he has with Haman and Rue is so much fun.

I wish they had focused a little more on that love. It should have been more of a love triangle than what's actually shown be notes. Fine. He's got one of the best mobile suits designs you know, ever.

Love judo. That's my guy. All right. So going completely based off of vibes alone, I suppose.

Do you have like any mobile suit, Any mecha in the series, mobile armor, what have you that you think like. Man, I love that.

I'm looking specifically through the uc like mobile suits right now to see if there's one that I recognize and just did not know it was from the uz.

Yeah.

So.

So you.

You talk about your favorite mobile suit.

Okay.

And I'll. I'm pretty. I know, I know. It's. Yeah.

This is gonna be a hard one because there's so many great designs. I mean, you know, the Double Zeta is a great one, but honestly, I wanna either. I'm actually gonna say the unicorn. Yeah, that's a. It's a cool one. The.

The pure white really kind of gets me normally like, you know, there's some red or blue thrown into design, but there's. There's also a little bit of black if I'm remembering correctly. But of course we've got the unicorn horn there.

And then when it's actually empowered, you get to see more of the red. You get to see some of the new type stuff that Bonnage year can do use with it.

But as far as like, those are like main suits, but other suits, like the suits that don't show up for as many episodes. I'm gonna throw it to the goof, like, Rambo Raw, that's my guy.

If you want to show someone who's on the more positive side of Zeon and showing, like, someone who's a real believer in what they stand for and is looking out for other people and showing like, hey, we're not. Not everyone in Xeon is a fascist. Not everyone in there is. Even people in the upper echelon. They're not all fascist. And it's an.

We'll get to that in a second. Of why people throw that out. It's like, that's just what they're all about. But he's a true believer.

He was someone who was working with Daikun beforehand. He's very skeptical about, you know, what the zombies are doing and wants to, you know, bring reform.

And when he finds that, you know, Selah, who of course is Shard's sister, is also obviously, therefore the daughter of, you know, down Daikun, he wants to help her out. But unfortunately, war being what it is, he ends up being a casualty. And we're the. We're the lesser for it.

So I've got to so ramp a Raw and the Goof in there too. How about you?

Is the F90 in UC?

The dash? Yeah. F90. F9. F90 is a manga. I think F91 is a movie. And yes, that's several decades after F92.

The F92 dash. It's like the red, white, and blue. Big shoulder pads, two swords.

Okay. Yes, yes. Yeah. So it's later on in the timeline. Okay.

But it is uc. Does that count?

If I'm remembering correctly, we'll go with that. That counts.

I'm gonna count that. The F92 dash. I love that. That looks so awesome. I'm just. I'm a sucker.

You know, if we're talking about man adjacent metal suits, if they don't have two swords and big shoulders, what's the point?

To me? Yeah, okay. That's totally fair.

So part of the conflict is obviously you're going to have people who want to supply you with the newest technology or the newest weapon or what have you.

And one of those groups is the allegedly neutral Anaheim Electronics, who show up multiple times over, kind of supplying both sides to certain extent. So we've probably asked this question before, but, like, what do you think? What's their culpability for the wars that their products are used in?

Yeah. Is this question about Sweden?

It can be.

That's what, you know, that's what it seems. This is one of those series, like Gundam is so on the nose about it. I've never even seen anyone on Twitter try to claim that it's not political.

If you don't think Gundam is political, you're not even trying.

Yeah, even as a child, I think I would have picked up on that. But you're asking me to answer this question. Good Lord. If you're supplying both sides, all that really makes you is rich.

Yes.

I really think if you are supplying to both sides fairly and evenly, yes, you could be seen as responsible. But they were going to war anyway.

They were gonna get their. Yeah, I mean, if not you, then someone else is gonna do it. It's kind of the mentality, so why not be the one to make the profit? Which.

There's a lot of morality involved there, whether that's the right choice or not.

But, I mean, not the worst thing to ever come out of Anaheim.

But that's. That's what they do. They supply weapons, they develop new technology that are used by other people.

Inevitably, it's going to cause death and destruction because they're making these things for war. Does that make them not culpable for what happens as a result of it? I wouldn't say it doesn't.

But at that same time, it would be better if they had, you know, clearly picked the side. Right. Rather than playing both sides. And then you can say, well, because he used it here and someone used it and misappropriate.

Appropriated for something else. Sure. But really, that.

I mean, if you want to know the real scum of the Earth, it's going to be people involved here because they're not focused on that much. And you will get some in other Gundam series where there's like, XPs made of them or they don't.

Don't get as much focus, but, like, they're clearly kind of like playing both sides and just making a profit off of it. And they're not shown to be good people. Which. One of the main themes of Gundam is that war is hell.

And no child soldiers are a thing too, but that's another thing. And robot.

And robots are awesome.

Yeah. Cool robot. Well, cool robot.

Cool robot. Child slaves getting the robot. That's a different series but, you know, still applies.

So I get someone being a hardliner on this and saying, absolutely, they should all be brought up on war crimes because XYZ happened because they, you know, sent their. Someone else paid for it to be used. I get it.

I'm not 100 there, but I definitely understand why someone would go that way, because at the end of the day, if they didn't, like you said earlier, if they don't do it, someone else is.

Right. So I think it depends on the scale, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

If.

If Robert J. Oppenheimer had been working for, like, a private company and just sold the nuke, then I think he would have been completely culpable to be brought up on war crimes for that.

Oh, that's fair. I see your point. Because officially, you know, the Manhattan Project is part of the United States government working on that.

So if a private contractor had come in, would they have been culpable? I mean, I think so. Sure. You can make that argument.

Because, you know, currently, I. I do blame the Manhattan Project and by extension, America, or the existence of the nuclear bomb and the relative non existence of nuclear power plans. But that's not what this conversation's about.

Victory kind of brings up the nuclear stuff more often, and it's so stupid high. I'm not the biggest fan of Victory. You can obviously tell that Tomina is kind of losing his mind.

It's not as fun, but that's its own separate thing, so. One of the most memeable lines from the show is a line that Shargie.

I've already quoted it earlier, if I'm remembering correctly, he is talking to Amara. It's been a while since I've watched Shar's Counterattack, so I apologize if I get the context wrong.

And he's talking about how the people of Earth and people who are aligned with them are weighed down. Their souls are weighed down by gravity. What do you think about that?

Keeping in mind that one of the things that a show is the difference between Earth Noid, space Noids, new types and all that. Go ahead.

Well, from my elevation, it's a pretty heavy line. I see what he's going for.

It's.

It's one of those things, like, you can tell he thought this up and was like, oh, that's genius.

Oh, I'm sorry. Gonna have to drop that one.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to drop that the hardest way I can. But as far as the meaning goes, it speaks to how. Earth Noids, which is a stupid name, by the way. Space noise is even stupider somehow.

That's what we're stuck with.

What we're stuck with, but speaks to his disdain for, you know, Earth Noids and what he sees as their position only being natural. Like, of course they think that because they're Earth Noids, you know, they're attached to their Earth.

That's all they Know, if they were spacenoids, they lived up here on one.

Side, it'd be different.

That's what it means to me. It kind of speaks to, you know, their nature.

And that's definitely something he's throwing in there. It's like you're not changing, you're not seeing what we're seeing because you're stuck on that planet.

And him talking to Amro is kind of poignant as well, because Amro was raised on Earth initially, and then when his parents split up, he went to one of the sides with his father.

And as part of being introduced to space, part of one of the premises of the show is that human beings, when we are kept away from the Earth, we gain these psychic abilities. People become distinct, known as a new type. Not everyone, obviously, but certain people, there's something about their DNA, about who they are.

It's just they're able to do that better.

So he's talking to someone who's lived in both worlds, as it were, and saying, you're thinking about this because you're that way, while at that same time he's threatening to destroy the Earth, saying not the entire Earth, but a part of it to rain down destruction with this giant meteor or something like that. I have to remember. Can't remember.

Off the top of my head, I think it's a meteor which is saying, hey, I don't care about all the people I'm going to kill because my values are better than your values, because your soul's way down by gravity, while at the same time I'm committing mass murder. So are you really that more enlightened? One of the thesis of the movie is that, no, you're not.

Yeah, you've, you've gained new perspective on things, but you're still just human. And there's plenty to be gained from the idea of thinking, oh, well, what if I did live in that other situation? If I.

If life were more weightless, if I could be on in space and see things from that perspective. Yeah, sure. But one of the things that he does bring up, because he's a very cynical person, is that people are people.

And some of it, you know, it's perfectly fine. And I even agree with some of the sentiment, you know, believing in total depravity like I do is that people are people and we cause problems.

Regardless where we are, regardless of how much more enlightenment we get, we're still sinful beings. Another big line.

And to this day, I think it's a reason why everyone thinks that Zeon As a faction, as a political party, is just Nazis by another name is a line that is given by Declan, who, remember, took over from Xeon Daikun in his own name. And he compares his son Giren, who is one of his military leaders and is a very sociopathic man, don't get me wrong, to Hitler.

And Giren doesn't recognize the name Hitler. So what do you think this says about our appreciation for studying history? That something as big as that, like the.

The biggest Godwin's law of all is compare someone to a Nazi or Hitler and somehow in the future, like you can be educated and not know who Hitler is.

Yeah.

So it's interesting mostly because to me, the sheer fact that someone leading Xeon can call someone in their own organization Hitler and him not recognize that says to me that maybe Zeon is more fascist than one would hope. Because you have to assume that involves the restriction of information at some point. I mean, that's what makes sense to me. Maybe, maybe not.

You know, maybe just wasn't that big of a deal in the. In the Gundam verse. But to me, that.

That implies some sort of restriction of information by maybe not necessarily Zeon, but I mean, clearly they don't all. They also don't care about military history if one of their military leaders doesn't. Doesn't know who Hitler is.

Well, that's one of the things we need to keep in mind. We don't know when exactly in the future this takes place. How universal Century one. What year that is in our, you know, AD BC kind of timeline.

Could that be information lost to time? Probably not. Or is it something that's not taught as much? Could be. And then at the same time, Degwin knows. Degwin knows, and he refers to him.

As something that everyone else should know.

Yeah. So Zeon, remember, is also fairly new in the grand scheme of things.

So he would have been taught, Giren, by either like a private tutor or someone working that would have just known the Federation. So does that say something about the Federation too? That they don't teach that?

Or is it because there's only so much history you can teach and maybe don't care about that as much compared to other things?

Maybe. So maybe. Maybe Federation's the Nazis.

Well, at the end of the day, once again, they both suck.

Yeah, maybe they both burned all their copies of Fahrenheit 451.

And once again, that's one of the points Tomorrow is trying to make here. He's not the only writer for the show over the years, but he's the biggest name I know.

He's the one I'm going to use is net people are people, and we excuse things or we forget about things. We focus on something else because we're flighty or because we want to think about something else.

So Dean, knowing it sounds like, well, maybe while he was still a kid, he was still learning that stuff. And then there's a generational gap where that's not taught in the curriculum anymore. Maybe. Or who knows? It's not really focused on too much. It's.

It's more the idea that it's a comparison made to be like, hey, my son, who I do love, you're acting like Hitler. And it falls flat because, number one, he wouldn't care even if he knew who Hitler was.

The point being, it's like, oh, I'm making this comparison of someone and you're confirming it with your actions. Like, how did you end up this way? I didn't raise you like this. I didn't teach you to be like this. And yet here's where we're at.

So this is my little personal bugaboo about this is. I think that this is a reason why a lot of the Gundam fandom just says Zeon equals Nazi.

Because when Giren takes control after he does get rid of his own dad, they go full Nazi in how they present themselves. That's where the CX on meme comes from, which is obviously taken from what we would think of as a Sig Heil and all that.

So it's very deliberately done to make them look like Nazis, while at the same time, they didn't start off that way and that not everyone in the organization thinks that way. But when you get people in charge who are pulling things like that, therefore, let's just say, not as nuanced people.

Well, then say, well, therefore the entire organization has to be like that. So what's your thought on that?

My thought on Nazism?

I mean, like on. On how it's portrayed here on. Obviously, since you haven't seen the episodes, you can't speak to characters as much.

But, like, just in general, what do you think about that concept of. Because Nazi, like, phrases are used by members of an organization, therefore everyone else involved with them has to be a Nazi.

Yeah, I mean, it's. I want to say ridiculous.

Like, I understand thinking that, but it's just not realistic for every person in an organization to, you know, represent the same values. Truly.

Yes.

Just not real.

Well, that's true of many things.

Everything.

I mean, obviously, yes, you got a point. I mean, just political parties, you've got people right and left who think the Nazis had a good point. That ain't good.

And you need to have people in that same party say, no, stop that way of thinking. You have no place here. And unfortunately, that's not done as much as it should be.

Then of course, you have churches who have members of their church who think a certain way about racial purity or something like that, and. Or maybe even the pastor does. And now that's infected them. And now they.

Because they are this specific denomination, people go, well, they're all like that. When other people who are in the denomination, I don't care which one it is, say, no, we're not like that. They're the fringe. They have no place here.

Unless they don't do that at all. Which then looks like we at that point and say, oh, it's fine what you're doing, just shut up.

But no, that's why I. I think these people do to an extent have a point.

When people in an organization don't speak out against other people in the organization using things like this, using imagery or using hands, signals or ideologies that would be affiliated, as we would think, with like a Nazi. Just using that as an example. You could throw communist whatever in there too, and have a point.

Because people aren't doing their jobs to shut it down. And throughout the rest of the series, we see them lose this aspect of themselves.

There's still fascistic elements in Federation and Neo Zeon and even slightly parts of the AU and most empty, the Titans.

But therefore the entire organization doesn't have to fall down just because someone else, someone in the organization was like, this is what we're about.

Yeah, I think the problem is mostly with the aesthetics. You know, they saw the Nazi fascism aesthetic and they were like, yeah, that rules. We're all going to dress like that forever.

And it doesn't help that there's a certain part of the Gundam fandom who goes full Nazi with their Xeon, you know, uniforms and stuff like that, and thinking, well, they had a point, they were right. And kind of like, there's some people who say, well, the Empire did nothing wrong, and they don't mean it as a joke for Star Wars.

They'll just say, yeah, Palpatine, he's our guy, and think that his Fascistic form of government was the good one.

Yeah. Name seven things the Empire did wrong. I'll.

Wait. Alderaan.

That's one.

Killing the Jedi Order. Extrajudicial attacking of planets like Tatooine. That had nothing to do with their country.

I'm going to count that as Alderaan.

Oh, okay, fine. Then let's see. Falsely imprisoning a senator. Leia barely even counts as a crime. Oh, don't even.

She's a senator, first of all. She. You know, she had to be at least a little evil. She's a politician.

Wow. Let's see. Curbing human rights. The entire Jeddah operation. Let's see. Destroying Elim.

I'm gonna count that as the Alderaan.

Oh, my gosh thing. Okay, whatever. Yeah, that's what I thought. Sure.

The Empire did three wrong things ever.

Oh, yeah. Three wrong things ever. Including blowing up an entire planet full of billions of people.

Yep.

A planet of pacifists.

That counts as one thing.

Sure. Anyways, so on the. On the topic of Gundam, do you have anything else you'd like to add before we wrap things up here?

No.

I think Gundam has really, you know, not recently established itself as one of those things that you can get into at any point and find out where to be.

You know, like, you can't just hop in and figure it out, probably, but you can hop in, like, what you see and then go back to the start of whatever you're watching. And it's a niche that I think is filled with. I think it's like Gundam Fate, Warhammer, and what's that series? Monogatari.

Oh, gosh. Yes.

I think those four things are just really special in this way.

It has become a lot easier to become a Gundam fan over time. Like, more stuff has been dubbed. If you're more on that side of things, you know, more things are available online for. For free on certain websites.

I think Tubi has gotten some stuff. The Gundam official YouTube page.

Every now and then will post entire series for like a month, take them off, and then post an entirely different series. That's been great for growing fandoms. So, yeah, if you're interested in getting in, I say go for it. It doesn't really matter where you start.

I'm sure some purists out there would say you have to start here. I started with Wing and other people who would say that's the worst series you could start with. The point is, it got me there.

I started with Iron Blooded Orphans.

That's a good one, too.

So I just watch.

If you can't watch one of the ones that look old because you hate style or artistic integrity or something, watch Iron Blooded Orphans or the Witch from Mercury.

Yeah, I'm with you there. Great series. All right, so we're also going to be doing a special bonus question today.

And that being of course, if we could make our own Gundam series, what would our story be about? What else would you do with it? I have a little thought about this. I threw this question at TJ literally today.

So if you want to show be a supporter there, you can hear him fumble around for something that wasn't his fault. Like many things today. And by the way, thank you tj for being such a champ about this. Rolling with the punches and we actually got way longer.

We went way longer than I thought we would. So how about you throw in a recommendation to the audience before we end.

Today, I would like to recommend Neon Genesis Evangelion and everyone knows that's the best Gundam anime.

Wow.

Very similar. Yeah, it's exactly like. Exactly like Unicorn.

Oh, as someone who's never watched.

I've never seen Unicorn.

Yeah, I do would second the Neon Genesis Evangelion, but strike the rest from the record as far as comparisons.

But everything else was wrong. But it's really good.

I've been enjoying that so far. I happened upon it the other day. It's been really good. So thank you all for what you guys do. We really appreciate your support.

And speaking of support, we have people who have joined us on fourth Wall and are helping us with our endeavors there by sending money our way. So I want to shout out some supporters.

Thank you.

Russell Gentry, Justin Vaughn, Annette Noel and Jeannie Mattingly. You're the best. Remember, we're all a chosen people, a geekdom of priests.