Joshua Noel, TJ Blackwell, and Will Rose dive into the delightful chaos of "Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas", attempting to view it through the lens of Thanksgiving in this quirky holiday special of Systematic Geekology. Right off the bat, they ponder what it would be like to view the film through the lens of gratitude and thanksgiving, playfully acknowledging that, while Joshua has trolled about its holiday classification in the past, this time they genuinely explore its themes of appreciation and belonging. They focus on the messaging rather than the film's history or ratings, creating a relaxed atmosphere filled with witty banter about holiday traditions and the film’s deeper meanings. The trio reflects on Jack Skellington's journey of self-discovery and the importance of being thankful for what one has, while simultaneously poking fun at the absurdity of the film's holiday mashup. As they wrap up this festive discussion, listeners are encouraged to engage with their own Thanksgiving traditions and consider the spirit of gratitude that resonates throughout the film.

Exploring the unconventional notion of "The Nightmare Before Christmas" as a Thanksgiving film, the crew dives into the heart of the movie's messaging. Joshua, the instigator of this holiday-themed discussion, teases the audience with his playful trolling about the film's classification. Accompanied by the ever-charismatic TJ and the insightful Will, they set out to explore the deeper themes that resonate within Jack Skellington’s journey. With a focus on gratitude and the quest for meaning, they reflect on how Jack’s existential crisis parallels the seasonal restlessness many experience during the holidays. The banter flows easily as they share their personal histories with the film, revealing how their childhood experiences shaped their appreciation for the story. Ultimately, they conclude that the essence of Thanksgiving—being thankful for what one has—may be the underlying message Jack learns, making this classic film a fitting addition to the Thanksgiving viewing roster.

Takeaways:

• In this special episode, the crew explores the wild idea of viewing Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas as a Thanksgiving movie, stretching the holiday spirit to its limits.
• Joshua, TJ, and Will delve into the film's underlying messages, discussing how Jack Skellington's quest for meaning mirrors our own journeys of gratitude and self-discovery during the holiday season.
• The guys humorously admit to their trolling, with Joshua claiming the film is Thanksgiving-themed, leading to a light-hearted discussion about its true holiday classification.
• Listeners are reminded that the film is not just about Halloween or Christmas but touches on themes of appreciation that resonate deeply with the spirit of Thanksgiving.
• The conversation highlights how Jack's desire to switch things up in his life reflects our own feelings of seasonal restlessness and the search for meaning, especially during the holidays.
• Ultimately, the episode encourages viewers to consider their own thankfulness, as the film's climax emphasizes gratitude and reflection amidst the chaos of holiday traditions.

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Be sure to check out our merch, find extra content, and become an official member of Systematic Geekology on our website:

https://systematic-geekology-shop.fourthwall.com/

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Listen to all of TJ's episodes:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/f4c32709-d8ff-4cef-8dfd-5775275c3c5e

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Check out other episodes with Joshua:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/642da9db-496a-40f5-b212-7013d1e211e0

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Listen to every episode with Will:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/4559ab55-4b6a-4432-b0a7-b61540df8803

Mentioned in this episode:

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What would it be like to watch the Nightmare Before Christmas as a Thanksgiving film? Today we're going to be discussing the messaging of the Nightmare Before Christmas.

We're going to talk a lot about what it would be like to watch this movie as Thanksgiving.

But if we've had these episodes before where we talked about, is it Christmas or Halloween, we've reviewed the film and several times you guys have heard me troll. And I'm going to admit today that I am trolling when I say it is a Thanksgiving film. But this time we're really going to talk about it as if it were.

We are gonna be focusing on messaging. We're not gonna be focusing on, like, some of the history behind it. We're not gonna be rating the film, any of that stuff.

So if you're here for, like the fun, super nerdy Disney stuff, this is more like a fun Thanksgiving holiday special that we're just gonna be talking about some of the messages and going through it. So don't expect a lot of that. Expect a little bit of that. Because I can't help myself. I am Joshua Noel.

I am here with the one, the only, the Pod Almighty. You might say that when it comes to Podcast Realm specifically, he is omnipotent. The one and only TJ Tabby has Juan Blackwell. Take that, Tom Ord.

I like how, like, I've just started this thing where it's just like, take that, Tom. And we're also here with the one and only, another fan of Tom Ord. Secretly, we're all fans of Tom Ward.

Even if I pick on him, the one and only Will Rose, my pastor. How's it going? The round headed king.

Oh, I'm feeling rounded and shined and ready to roll.

Yeah, it's gonna be going to. I am the turkey King. If you follow the show for any extended period of time, you know, this is my favorite holiday.

I think about it literally all year round, literally in January. And like New Year's people are like New Year's resolutions. And I'm like, my resolution has to do with something Thanksgiving.

I'm gonna do it different this year. Yeah. Anyway. And we are also here with the pod king. TJ is the pod King. So we're all a king of something today. Our own realms.

And instead of doing our usual what we're geeking out on, I want to know something really important, guys. What side dish are you guys most excited for this Thanksgiving? It's coming out on Thanksgiving Day. What side dish are you most excited for today?

Will.

I really can't wait. Some stuffing. That's what I'm looking for. If you ask me tomorrow, it might be something a little different.

Classic.

Yeah.

But I think the stuffing. Do you count, like, turkey skin, the turkey skin off the turkey as a side?

I think it's good.

Whatever you want to be a side. Whatever you're most thankful for.

Stuffing, gravy, and then some skin. Yeah.

Nice. Nice. Dj, what are you. What side are you most excited for?

Probably mashed potatoes. You can eat mashed potatoes all year. I get it. And I do. I love mashed potatoes. I like to say I'm a big mashed potatoes guy. That's not really true.

I'm like five, six on a good day. So, like a slightly below average mashed potatoes guy.

I love him. You know, this was hard for me. Mostly between macaroni and cheese with gravy or potatoes with gravy. Gravy is the given part.

I'm gonna go mashed potatoes specifically because, like, I can make my own Mac and cheese. The Mac and cheese I make at Thanksgiving is special, but I do it sometimes throughout the year just.

Cause I'm like, man, it'll be like March and something will upset me. And I'm like, I just need a little piece of Thanksgiving to get me through March and I'll make my Thanksgiving Mac and cheese.

But my mom makes some mashed potatoes that I can't seem to replicate, so that's what I'm excited for. She does this thing with, like, cream cheese in it. And like, I try and I think my potatoes have gotten better.

It's just, I don't know, something about it. Last year, specifically, they were on point.

His potatoes are pretty good. Josh's potatoes.

Except for that one time I burned.

Maybe more than once.

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I do enjoy making mashed potatoes, but with that, guys.

Yeah.

You know, we're also thankful for people who take their time and rate and review our podcast, wherever you get it. If you're taste, you know, you're on the road and you're listening to this on Thanksgiving Day, hey, just know we're thankful for you.

We appreciate it. And if you have time, you know, you know, you ate a little bit, you got to spend some time in the restroom, you got your phone out.

Might as well rate and review the.

Show while you're there.

And it does. It helps our show get noticed and all the algorithms and stuff. So we do really appreciate that. Also very thankful for all of our financial sponsors.

Today I want to specifically shout out Ethan Overcash. I met Ethan recently. He's awesome. He's incredible. It's one of those where like I say his name a lot and now I'm like, wow.

When I thank him on the show, I know who I'm talking about. I'm like, I actually do. Really? This guy's awesome. Yeah.

Also guys, if you want your own shout out and for me to go on for no reason about you, you have to meet me. And also consider supporting our show for $5 a month on our website. That's gonna be down in the show's description.

You also can get some free extra content. You can get some merch down there. There's a. You can leave like a one time financial gift. If you're just thankful for what we do on the show.

There's all kinds of stuff you do. So just make sure you check out the website when you got time. We appreciate it. We appreciate you.

And I am super thankful for this holiday and for my friends who agreed to do this little exercise with me of watching the Nightmare Before Christmas as a Thanksgiving film. I already admitted it once. I'm going to say it again. I will keep saying that it's a Thanksgiving film but I am trolling you when I say that.

Like I know that that's not correct. I feel like that needs to be said because I think some people don't know that I know that.

Well, for a long time you wouldn't admit that.

Yeah, there's that. Yeah, I've seen the error of that ever.

I'm thankful for your self awareness.

Thank you. I think this show has given you that though.

I think it helps. This group, this community that we have really helps.

And if people want to be a part of the community, we have a special discord channel that they can be involved with if they become an official member on our website in the show's description. Oh no, for real though, I do want to run down. I'm going to ramble a little bit to give some people some context because I can't help some stuff.

So some of the history behind. Is this Christmas. Is it a Halloween movie? What is the name here? Before Christmas.

There's actually a lot of history behind this that's really interesting. On our show says Mac Geekology. We're doing a year polarization.

It would have been natural to do this debate again, but we've already done it and there is actually just a very. There is an answer to this. It's both. The reason that it's both. I'm gonna give you the Reasons, guys.

First of all, Tim Burton had the idea because he was just in a shop when they were taking Halloween stuff down and putting Christmas stuff up at the same time. And he said, huh, that's interesting. Let's do that. Literally canon. That's why he made the movie. It is both.

Originally, it was gonna be like a short because Disney just didn't really know what to do with Tim Burton. He got fired. He did some other stuff. He became a big name. Disney still owned the rights to this story.

And he was like, I really want to make this film. They okayed it. They announced it was going to come out. Guess what weekend, guys?

Thanksgiving week.

Of course. Of course it's going to come out Thanksgiving weekend. Why wouldn't it? Except for they did some screenings, it didn't do great.

So Disney was like, let's put it under something else. It's a Tombstone film. It's not Disney. And of course, you know, Disney owns that. They just didn't want their name on it.

So then they released it as a Halloween movie under Tombstone, even though originally when it was announced, and they told everyone, Touchstone, they told everybody it was going to be Disney animation coming out Thanksgiving weekend, and ends up being a Touchstone film coming out in October because they don't want to mess with Christmas. They know the movie's not going to do well, so they did in October.

Then, of course, it became an absolute icon in our culture and something we still talk about 31 years later. People still constantly buy the merch. Disney is straight up taking over Disney World, Disneyland for the months of October through December.

That's what you're getting. All the parades. Everything's pretty much Nightmare Before Christmas. Like, that's. That's the name of the game.

It's not considered part of the Renaissance era, though, because it wasn't originally released as a Disney film. Is it Christmas? Is it Halloween? It was supposed to come out for Thanksgiving to get ready for Christmas.

Ends up coming out in October during Halloween season ends. It has both in there.

The reason for my particular trolling joke, the film, to me, seems to be a lot about Jack not really being thankful for what he has, and he learns thankfulness, sort of.

And of course, the movie takes place between Halloween and Christmas, not during one of those days, which is why I troll people and tell them it's a Thanksgiving film.

It is possible the scene that like actually solidifies that it's between the two. Says it is 35 days before Christmas, which would make it November 20, which is a possible day for Thanksgiving.

Yeah, I've told people that that was Thanksgiving that year. I don't know if that's true though.

It was because that would have been 93.

Yeah.

There's only one look up.

I've been telling people that that was Thanksgiving but I've never looked it up.

But yeah, there is a case to be made. Assuredly so it's just. So I recommend that everyone listening tries to watch it as a Thanksgiving movie because it's difficult.

Disagree. I do think it's really easy to watch it as a Thanksgiving film because it is mostly about gratitude.

It's difficult because the door, the door to Thanksgiving town is the one that he lingers on the most before he decides to go to Christmas town.

I will say that took me out watching a Thanksgiving movie. That is what took me out the most of watching it.

And then like the Easter Bunny is in it and not, I don't know, a turkey. A turkey like Betty Crocker, Martha Stewart. I don't know who would represent.

I am the Turkey King, so I represent. Actually, you know what, hear me out. Disney, you own Bob's burger. Now give us the short of Jack opening the turkey door and it's just Bob.

That's pretty fun. That's what I want.

Yeah, that would be three year old job.

Great.

I will say we're going to talk about our history with this film but I, I just watched it recently all the way through all in one sitting and I. And I was really disappointed he didn't visit all the other towns. And I really want to see some shorts. If they want to keep this rolling.

I want to see some shorts or, or Nightmare Before Christmas Part 2 or a trilogy and see Visit all these towns. That's really what I was hoping didn't get.

I would like to see those expectations. They. They're pesky. But I will say Tim Burton has shot down the idea.

He said he is absolutely not doing more of this because he thinks it stands on its own. Doesn't need any more. But there are ways to get more stories in this realm. There's a comic coming out next year that I'm going to.

Yeah, I'm going to have TJ pronounce some of the names later on when I recommend it because I don't have to say any of These names.

Ryan Doe spoke with her and we interviewed her on across the By Cross. So, yeah, there you go.

Plug that in the description. If I remember a lot of.

Lot of F bombs. But she's good.

Yeah. The. Also, this is a great segue into my introduction. Introduction to this film. We're going to talk about our own history with it.

So mine, it's not going to surprise anybody. I've said it before, but any excuse to say the name Kingdom Hearts. Of course, I wasn't allowed to watch this film as a kid.

Was allowed to play a video game called Kingdom Hearts. And I come upon Halloweentown and I'm like, this is freaking awesome. Donald Duck's magic makes us all like Halloween characters.

While you're there, you're running around Jack the Skeleton and what I didn't know till later on. So I played Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2 before I ever watched this movie because I wasn't allowed to as a kid. I thought that this was what the movie was.

Was Kingdom Hearts 1. Nope. Kingdom Hearts 1 is a prequel. You're hanging out with Jack and doing stuff. Only in Halloween town.

Kingdom Hearts 2 is when he goes to Christmasland and all that. And it's kind of implied that he's been to Christmas town before. So I think Kingdom Hearts 2 might happen after this film.

We're not really sure though. So it is some fun stuff, though. So if you want more in this world. Yeah. Comic books and Kingdom Hearts are. So far the only thing I know.

Of there is the game does technically, like, take place after the movie, like the actual adaptation.

There's a video game.

Video game? Yeah. It's called like. Or something. Something like that. And there is also a sequel book at the novel.

It's a young adult novel and it's called Return of the Pumpkin or something that Disney put out that I haven't read.

That's pretty cool.

Do they go to another, like, Holiday Town?

I haven't read.

I have no idea. I will say, like, I think too. It's just so wild to me, like for. For my generation. And after, instead of Jack and Diane, it's Jack and Sally.

Like, even in songs, you know, it's like. That's just. Anyway, we're past Legacy. Tj. You're already up on the big screen. Can you tell us what your history with the film is?

Yeah. Well, it's older than me and so is my sister, so I've watched it forever.

Were you allowed to when you were in the womb? Oh, yes.

My parents didn't care Whatever.

I knew the answer to that.

All right, well, take us home. What is your history with Kingdom Hearts?

I'm very familiar. So this movie came out when I was in college and I never watched this movie all the way.

I've seen clips, definitely know the memes and the merch and that it is a Hot Topic fever dream for anybody who loves Hot Topic. There's just Jack Skeleton everywhere. So I, I understand. I know the lore with, with this movie. It's bridge between Halloween and Christmas.

Controversy around Halloween. I think it's a Christmas movie. But the. So I took the assignment. Josh was like, what if. What if we watch this through the lens of Thanksgiving?

You watch, like, oh, I. I'm gonna watch it. So. So I literally watched it last night all the way through before recording. This was very fresh in my head that.

Yeah, last time I watched it, I watched a half of it a couple days ago while I was cutting onions. But then I watched the other half of it today while I was cutting onions. I get very bored cutting onions.

I actually came home from work today, watched it.

Nice. So this film, this film is wild. First off, I just want to say, if you haven't seen it, it's wild. We're not going to do in depth description today.

You know, it's Thanksgiving. You guys got things to do. But I'm gonna.

I'm gonna challenge us all if your family, you know, this is like pre heaven, post this life whoever you want as part of your family. Your dead cats alive now, you know, grandparents, everybody's here. Everybody, everybody Will's great, great, great grandchildren.

All right, whole families together. We're going to watch this film after Thanksgiving dinner. That's the plan.

And before we get ready to sit down, your grandmother comes up to you and is like, hey, could you.

What.

What.

What's this movie about? Could you describe this film like you were describing it to your grandmother?

T.J. yeah, I would tell her that it is about the king of Halloween learning about Christmas and trying to take over.

I think my description would be pretty similar if it was to my last remaining grandparent, which is my dad's mom. She reads a lot. She's very, I'll say stoic.

I think that's probably accurate, but I think it's more fun to tell you guys how I would Describe it to my granny. My mom's a mom. Because she, for the record, would not watch Star wars because that green guy's ugly, bless his heart.

And, like, she was like, I don't like that. I don't like that he's ugly. She wouldn't watch it. So I want to describe, like, as it strikes her.

So I would tell her the pumpkin pink and a bunch of ugly people. A lot of ugly creatures are gonna visit Christmas. And because, like, I would want to warn, she would not like this.

She would just not be a fan of Tim Burton. And I feel like if she knew who Tim Burton was, that's all I would have to tell her. And she'd be like, I'm good.

But I could just hear her talking about how they're all ugly and all. Plus they're. Oh, what happened to his face? Like, because thing is, she loved everybody.

She was so precious, but she did not like creepy things at all, which is funny because my grandfather let's watch Kaiju films that things blow up and likes all the monsters and thinks it's great. But that's. Yep, they had a very unique relationship. Will, you're describing this to your grandmother. What are you letting her know going.

In Grandma Burling, God rest her soul, probably the grandparent that I spent the most time with and probably closest with. And there's so many questions that I would love to ask her her thoughts on. On now with the state of the world, and would love to hear it.

She's a feisty, feisty woman, my mom's mom, and I doubt she ever experienced. I doubt she experienced Tim Burton or anything that is involved Tim Burton. So I would.

I would go to her and say, like, this is a movie about a hero's journey who rediscovers their true column and. And not give any other. Any other, like, kind of hint of what it's about.

Like, sounds like, sit her down to watch it and just get out the popcorn and watch her reaction to the differences, especially the scene where the kids.

Are all the ugly creatures.

No, that kid pulls out a, Like a shrunken head out of, like, the present, the gift and the. And the stocking or whatever and have her turn looking. What are you and I. I would be there.

So that's what I. I just want to say we're not going to do rating and reviewing.

I just can't help but throw this out because I was listening to some other podcasts talk about this recently because I want to make sure we're not just giving you guys, what everybody else is doing. I think playing Kingdom Hearts has given me such an appreciation for the amount of detail in this thing.

Because to me, having done that first, I've gone through. I know I pulled the spider to ring the doorbell. I've seen the creature who rips his face out. All this stuff.

I know where all the stuff is because I played the game first. And then I'm watching the movie and I'm like, oh, they didn't make this up for the game. Literally, there's just like one liners here and there.

That's building an entire world in grave detail. Like, you could watch this movie 100 times and probably still learn something. Yeah.

It really is incredible. The production behind this movie is absurd. And it's. So when you think Tim Burton, most people think of this Beetlejuice.

That's your Tim Burton movies. Tim Burton was like. Tim Burton was hardly involved. Like, he wrote the original poem. He, you know, was involved in getting workshopped.

He visited the set five times. Visited the set of the Nightmare Before Christmas five times. Because he was too busy making Batman Returns.

Yeah. Hearing how this movie, like, the development stories are all hilarious.

For a long time, Disney apparently had a framed chunk of a wall that he kicked a hole in the wall because supposedly is the only time anyone has seen Tim Burton loses timber. Because somebody was like, what if Oogie boogie was actually Dr. Finkelstein? He was like, that's the dumbest idea I've ever.

And he got like, rage quit. But he. Yeah.

Well, quick question.

Is it.

Okay, Is it Claymation stop animation? Is there any computer thing? It's just all.

There's a couple actual pictures that are involved, like, technically live action.

I guess you would say. There's. There's like a. Yeah. A tiny bit of traditional animation which.

Was done by mostly claymation.

Disney feature animation, like, tiny, tiny. And it's almost entirely Claymage.

But also, if you feel like we have to mention it was directed by Henry Selick, who goes back and forth to whether or not he thinks it's funny that he doesn't get mentioned that much. And he's like, I don't really care, and being super pissed off about it. So that's a thing. He's very touch and go with this.

He also did James the Giant Peach, if you don't recognize the name.

Yeah, that's so good. Yeah.

The stories behind the development are all just hilarious because, like, apparently they had like all the sets and characters and everything before they had the story. And like, Danny Elman was making the songs and then later they were like, yeah, so how do we get the story to match that song?

So like the world in the songs were more important than the actual story to them. But I, I don't think it shows. Like, I feel like the story is pretty.

I, I think it.

I think watching it with the bad opinions. Here we go.

I know.

Call.

Call me the bad opinions. Bad opinion king or whatever. But I do think like the movie. I, I really did. Like, not the creativity. You could watch this detail.

I totally get on that lore of the character. Jack Skeleton deserves all the like Mount Rushmore Halloween characters that are out there.

But I will say it's sort of storyline and where it goes and how it holds together. I can tell it's just like, I really like this idea of this song.

And we're going to create a movie around these series of playlists and, and, and in terms of. Because they jump really fast to a couple things and I wanted more and it was relatively short movie. It's relatively.

In the grand scheme of things, pretty sure. But I understand with all the. What they had to do with, with the. The stop motion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's funny is some of the biggest praises this film got was because people just donated money because they believed in what Tim Burton was doing. And they were like, yeah, it's great. They didn't have to cut anything out. They included everything they wanted to include.

A lot of the praises it gets is that it was short and doesn't feel like it's missing anything. So I think it's really funny because Will's like, no, they're wrong.

Yeah. You know what's funny to me is it is like. I think it's a great movie. I love this movie and it is.

My second favorite movie.

Second favorite movie. That is. That feels like. That, that feels like it was written around song.

What's the first?

Jack and the Cuckoo Clock Heart. Oh, phenomenal. Also stop motion movie. But it is written based off of an album from the French rock band the Honor Song.

Nice.

Yeah.

They also made a song called yeah.

Song for a Jedi. You've heard probably a lot.

Yeah, I know I've heard a lot of that song because of dj but yeah, I want to say too. So with the story. Part of why I like the story, even without the songs and everything else, I think it does stand on its own.

I like that it kind of has a lot of your existential crisis kind of stuff. But without the death part. It's not because he's Looking down debt.

Like we're going to take that element out of it completely and say, wait a minute, what if the Montanadi of life is still bothersome even if you're not looking down your finitude? Well, and I thought that was it.

He names it. He was like, I'm immortal, I can't die, I'm undead, I'm a skeleton. And so where do you find joy? Where do you find creativity?

If it's going on and on, yeah.

He names it and then that gets completely ripped off by the good place. I move on from that.

So Will, what do you think the actual, before we get to watching this Thanksgiving film, what do you think the actual intending message of the film was?

I do, I do think it's like this. What the existential question of where do we find life and creativity in our day to day routines.

I really do think it is a hero's journey where someone rediscovers their true calling and that no matter how, where you are, whatever holiday town, whatever favorite holiday you love, if you did it every single day or that's everything that revolved around that, it would get a little old, it would get a little stale. How do you find a little bit extra zip?

How do you find a little extra energy when things just seem like, so routine and monotonous and, and sometimes you, you rediscover your true column by, through others and through looking through the lens of how other people see the world. So from a, from a different perspective, look at the world through a different perspective.

Maybe walking through a different portal, you discover like ah, maybe, maybe my where, where I grew up, where I've. He at one point he goes, I'm home. I've, I've come back home. And so he rediscovered place.

Yeah, tj and he was thankful.

And he was thankful.

Tj, what about you? If you had to the best of your ability describe what the actual message of this film was, what would you go with?

Stop motion is awesome and Halloween is cool and Christmas could be scary.

All right.

Oh man. I will say yeah real fast. Yeah, Christmas is scary.

I remember when Hannah was really, really little and I was sharing with her that Santa is coming and gonna put Christmas gifts in, in our living room. He was like, what he's getting in our house tonight while I'm asleep? I'm like, yeah, don't let him in. I don't want a stranger in my house.

I don't want any of that. She was petrified. And I was like, yeah, you know, you're right. Just strangers in the house that you don't know.

She's like, I don't know if I trust this guy. I don't know this guy. Don't let him in my house. Freaked her out.

Yeah, but. But really I. I think it's about like. Don't be afraid to try new things, you know? Even if you fail spectacularly.

Yeah.

You won't know until you try.

That's true. Because Jack says, at least I tried. Like he's still glad that he tried. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's funny though, with Will's thing as Tiffany tells a story, like when she was young, she hated the I Saw Mama Kissing Santa Claus song. I'm like, you know what? Yeah, yeah, I get it. Okay. So for me, if I'm being honest and not just trolling, I think that.

I don't think it has a message as much as it's asking us a question. I think it wants us to be introspective and to ask what if you're missing stuff in your life because of the montaneity of everyday life?

Like, I think it's asking us what if that's the case?

Because, you know, you see, you know, Jack is missing some stuff and he doesn't realize it because instead of observing his own life, what he goes and finds something else. He does this whole thing. Is he glad he did it? Because it gave him a new perspective.

But I think at the end what you see is Jack's missing how great his own calling was. He's missing Sally being completely infatuated with him.

He's missing a lot because he's so bogged down with Montanaity and just doing the same thing over and over. He just doesn't take the time to notice what he does have. And I think it's asking that question for us to look at ourselves and go, am I doing that?

And why I think it's a Thanksgiving movie is because I naturally almost immediately answer with that with, oh, I know how to tell by being thankful for what I have. Like my natural response to that is Thanksgiving. Which is why I naturally am like, oh, yeah, of course, Thanksgiving.

Right. Which is very normal and adjusted thing that normal people do. Yes.

I can't tell if he's joking or not.

This obviously is about Thanksgiving.

Yes. Being thankful for what you have. So how does the meaning change? DJ Then if we do watch it as a Thanksgiving movie, we try to do this.

How does that impact? Like what new things can you get out of the film by watching it this way?

Me personally, I got a lot of man, this is not about Thanksgiving. I did.

That's funny.

That's really what I got out of it. Trying to watch it as a Thanksgiving movie because honestly, I love this movie. I just get lost in it.

And I kept forgetting that I was trying to watch it because I'm not. I'm not like it. I'm not a movies or type this kind of person. I watched Muppets Christmas Carol yesterday.

Not because we're getting close to Christmas, just because I really like Muppets Christmas character.

All right. Well, same same question.

Well, given the assignment to watch the movie through that lens, I was really anticipating the entire time. Entire time them going to Thanksgiving town. They never did. I was really disappointed.

Yeah, it is if this expectation.

I'm watching it all the way through.

And you were told to watch it like it was a Thanksgiving movie. I could see how that would be pretty jarring.

Oh, that's funny.

No, no. You know, I totally get it like the whole like all the holidays and it's not what you get out of the holiday as we into it.

Mindfulness and don't take granted things that you have and your. What your life revolves around. I think you know, Jack Skeleton had a big to do list when it comes to Halloween is over. Then he's let down.

He's like, ah, I feel an emptiness inside. Now this. I have to start all this over again. He misses the fact that Sally is an oppressed captive who needs. Who needs. Needs liberation.

You know, if he had been so like bogged down with big to do list, maybe he would have noticed there's someone who. Who needs freeing from the oppressor. So. So yeah. And there. There is a. A sense of. Of. Yeah. Where does the gratitude come from?

And what shakes you out of routine and just taking things for granted. There's things along the way. Maybe. Maybe it is appropriating someone else's town and making it your own that wakes you up out of.

Yeah, I didn't think about the cultural appropriation. Yeah. That's funny though. So I. Full disclosure, I watch this every year. The Thanksgiving film. The movie takes place during November.

Just makes sense to me. There's not a lot of other Thanksgiving movies. There's just not a lot of Thanksgiving movies. This is what I do. This Specials. TV specials. Yeah.

Free birds. For me though, watching it as Thanksgiving, it's just. It feels natural to me. But because it does feel like.

I will say though, going in with the mindset, I think makes me like Jack Skeleton a lot less. Because what you see is like, okay, I'm thinking about being thankful for what? You know, thankfulness, that kind of stuff.

And here's this dude and he has this whole crisis moment. His whole, like, crisis that he has to come back from is, man, I'm the greatest of all time. I have never once failed the. This sucks.

And I'm like, man, this guy a little bit irritates me when I watch it as a Thanksgiving film because I'm like, man, you're the Pumpkin King. You have pretty much the only real female character in your town likes you, you know, and it's like, hold up. Now the mayor comes to you for answers.

Dr. Finkelson is like, whatever you want. Sure. You know, the whole town basically worships him. And he's like, this sucks.

So, you know, obviously I get a lot out of it going, hey, am I missing that? Well, you know, obviously I have problems with self confidence. I down on myself and I'm like, am I maybe a jerk like Jack?

And sometimes I'm like, actually really good at stuff and I feel down and someone's looking at me going, I hate that guy. How can he be down on himself? You know, like, it's like when you play. Sorry, I love my pop up. I'll tell a story about him.

We play golf with him one holiday, and we all immediately hit the ball into the pond. And he's like, oh, it's fine, it's fine. You guys are doing great. And then he hits it barely into the pond.

Is man, a blind man with one arm and no legs could have hit better than that. And we're like, wait a minute, Papa, didn't you just tell us? But I think that's a little bit what I get out of this film.

It's like, this guy's the greatest and he still can't appreciate it. And I think it's just hard not to reflect on that for me.

So, Will, what parts of this felt most natural, if natural at all, to watch this as a Thanksgiving film?

Well, there was that moment when they come upon the portal to Thanksgiving tab, but never go. That feels most natural.

There is a turkey.

There's a turkey.

Yeah, true, true.

I was so thinking, like, what they. I did not think that they accidentally kidnapped the. The Easter Bunny I thought was going to pop out of that thing. It's gonna be a turkey thing.

It's like, oh, because Josh was said.

Wouldn'T that have made it?

And I was like, ah, that would have made sense.

So me trolling impacted your expectations and maybe ruined the movie for you. Maybe I. Maybe I'm Jackson. I'm the bad guy.

Then I think about it, I'm like, you know what? It shouldn't have been a turkey. It should have been the Easter Bunny. I like that sometimes. Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

What the hell does that have to do with Christianity? You're like, well, that's what you.

Where.

You have to kind of bust out the scientific methods and find out what.

I'm not gonna explain myself at all, but I posit that Jack Skeleton has more to do with Christianity than the Easter Bunny.

Tj, I think I'm gonna revisit that point. That will just brought up again. We need a good Thanksgiving entity, because it's me. Whenever it comes up, it's always this.

It's always Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, you know, like Rise of the Guardians. You got the Easter Bunny. He's Australian for some reason.

Ah, that's such a good.

Such.

Can we talk about that sometime?

We should talk about that sometime.

Talk about that during YouTube.

YouTube.

The part that naturally feels like. Yeah, that naturally feels like. Let's talk about it for Christmas.

Okay.

The part that feels naturally like Thanksgiving to me is none of it. But the part that feels the closest is definitely when Jack Skellington gets back to Halloween town after he has his revelation.

Like, I'm the Pumpkin King.

Yeah.

I'm going to go back there and I'm going to do what I'm best at. And I'm going to kill Oogie Boogie, by the way. I'm going to kill him. I'm going to kill him when I get back. Murder. Actually, murder.

Kingdom Hearts 2 is canon, in which case he might still be.

Well, well, yeah, you have. You have Santa, you have the Easter Bunny.

If there's a Thanksgiving entity, you can't have the turkey because the turkey is always murdered to be eaten. So they can't be the, like, mascot.

I still would be the mascot. Bob from Bob's Burger. Bob from Bob's Burger.

Gotta be like Tom Thumb or something.

Something. Okay.

For a big mashed potatoes. Just a big blob of mashed potatoes.

For myself, I'm going to agree with tj and I'm going to expand on a little bit. Beginning of the film, this is Halloween. They have a song. You see the world. You know, everything that Halloween is about the spookiness.

It's the scare. That's the fun. You go to Christmas, it's about the jolly, happy children. Snow, you know, it tells you what Christmas is about.

You have what's this, you know, that tells you exactly what Christmas Town is through the eyes of Jack, of course. But then at the very end, he goes back to Halloweentown, and it's just this him realizing, I'm thankful that I did this. I'm thankful for who I am.

I'm thankful for the people in my life. And it's just a great show of gratitude. It's just him going around being thankful, and I'm like, yeah, that's what it's about.

Which is why I have a hard time when the crescendo of the film is about being thankful. I have a really hard time thinking it's Halloween or Christmas. It's easy to think both. It's easy to think neither.

I have a really hard time putting in one camp, though, when it's like, clearly the message of the film wasn't either of those things, because the crescendo of the film didn't end with this is Halloween. It ends with him having gratitude, which is where I'm at. Yeah. What part? And I think I know the answer. Felt least genuinely like a Thanksgiving film.

Dj, opening scene. This is Halloween.

You know, I didn't know the answer. I thought he was gonna say all of it.

That felt a lot like Halloween to me.

Whenever.

My answer is, whenever you see, like, zombie or undead or skeleton reader or a vampire or a werewolf or a Frankenstein monster or Bride of Frankenstein, wherever you see a monster or pumpkin or a skeleton, whenever you see that, it kind of throws me for a loop.

My pushback is, I argue that the season of Thanksgiving starts with the Day of the Dead, and it actually starts by you being thankful for your past loved ones. Then it goes to being thankful for the saints and then all souls. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, it starts with, you know, so the skeletons and zombies.

I'm like, yeah, okay. I think that that can be Thanksgiving.

I. I like your marketing that we do earlier. It does feel like that the Halloween stuff comes off the shelf and immediately Christmas pops on and there's no room for, like, fall or November.

I will agree. I had that same experience of walking into, like, a store not that long ago and Santa's right beside a zombie, literally.

And I'm like, oh, here you go. There's a Satan Center.

That was the inspiration for this film.

Yeah, I experienced the same thing. Like, there's no in between. Where. Where's my Thanksgiving tree?

And that's like a. I've talked before. I think America has probably unintentionally created a liturgy of our holiday calendar.

And it does go from Halloween and being scared and thinking about our mortality into being thankful for what we have, into then looking to new hope with Christmas and, you know, the winter solstice, all that stuff. And like, I feel like there's a little bit of a natural progression. And Thanksgiving and then taxes.

Yeah, I think they make you wait to think about.

You start all over and you're like.

They try to separate death and taxes. Wake up.

For me, the part that felt the least genuine like a Thanksgiving film is the part that felt most genuine to Will. Right there, you see the turkey, and it's like he's choosing not to go to Thanksgiving town. That's the part where I'm like most.

Takes me out of it when I'm trying to watch it as a Thanksgiving film. Well, man, it's hard to. Hard for me to make this argument when he sees Thanksgiving and chooses not.

That side by side, like, you got Thanksgiving and they have the timeline. Like, it would have been bad on the other side.

At least they should also.

Yeah.

St. Patrick's Day.

Yeah, I'm glad that that got that.

Door.

Takes you to green beer. Lots of green beer.

Takes you straight to some rowdy. Rowdy fall into a river of. Yeah, you just go in. So drunken party.

One thing is.

Okay, so what big crux of the film is Jack's desire to switch things up for a different holiday than his own, to do something different than he's been doing over and over and over and over that he's the absolute best at? You know, what. What does Jack's desire for a different holiday say about our own seasonal restlessness or search for meaning?

Pastor. Oh, here we go. My favorite scene in the entire movie is when he busts out the book that says the Scientific Progress Scientific Method.

And he's trying to scientifically figure out what the meaning of Christmas is. And he has. He has equations, he has math. He's really trying to put his hands on what this holiday really means. And that's the question, right?

What does it do for me? Yeah, I got an idea. When it comes to Christ Mass, the mass of Christmas, I got an idea of Christmas means. But it's really.

I don't think this is a giving movie as much as is a dialogue between faith and science. Because in the midst of that science, he's asking, you know, maybe. Maybe even if I can't see it still, maybe this is a faith in science.

If I had to put it in a category, I'm putting it as a Love film, personally, primarily a love story, not just between him and Sally. I think it's the whole community. And that's what.

To me, one of my favorite scenes is actually when he's going back, trying to describe Christmas, and no one's understanding him. And to me, this might be a little bit weird. Like, pastors, podcasters, a lot of people who spend time on stage.

I see this a lot because even though I do a little bit of that, but I'm around a lot of people who do stuff like that. And a lot of times they so much put their identity into, I'm the Pumpkin King. I'm the pastor. I'm the one on the stage.

I'm the one with the mic that sometimes they go out to do stuff, and then they're, like, talking to friends, and everybody's like, huh. Like, they love them, but they're like, huh.

And I think this is him realizing he doesn't actually have a relationship with the people of Halloween Town, including Sally. So I think a lot. A lot of it, I think, has to do with that. So I think he had to switch it up for him to realize what he had.

But I think what he had was love. And, man, like, people hate when you answer stuff that way. The answer was love. But I think this time, it actually probably was.

Yeah.

I think it's the most easily relatable part of the movie. It's getting comfortable. He's in the rut. He's dealing with the monotony of his everyday life, and he just wants to see if something could change.

And he's luckier than most of us because he is the king of Halloween. He's the Pumpkin King, you know, no matter what he does. Pumpkin King. Not all of us can say that.

Yeah. Yeah. Tj. Can't tomorrow be like, you know what? Kind of. Know what it's like to work at Moe's and then be like, I didn't like it. Go right back.

Actually, he might, because he's good at his job, but maybe a lot of people can't do that. Yeah, but. Yeah, yeah, I like that.

But I think I forgot one more thing. Pastoral privilege. I do think it's important to be intentional and mindful of why we do.

For any holiday early celebration, there's birthdays or anniversaries or whatever season you're in. I think that's part of the challenge.

And while these movies do ask that kind of existential question, why are we doing this in the first place, listening to all this, are we just doing it because we always do it. I do like that message, especially as we exit Thanksgiving. Ish. I know it's always Thanksgiving. Josh was mine.

I have a lot to be thankful for.

The season of Advent and waiting and preparing our hearts for the coming of our Lord at Christmas time or even the second coming. I think being mindful of our actions, what we do. Really good question message like him.

Also, I said I've got plenty to be thankful for. And realize that no one picked up on the reference. That's also one of my favorite Thanksgiving songs by Bing Crosby.

Anyway, continuing, I want to ask you guys, even though we had some challenges with this one, for people who aren't me and aren't constantly thinking about Thanksgiving. Tj, you and I recently ish. This summer on Whole Church podcast we had someone on who explained to us the importance of Asian hermeneutics.

Asian American hermeneutics. And we're reading the Bible through a specific context. We talk about this with different types of theology, feminist theology, all this stuff.

And it's not that we're saying, oh, it's not the same truth. We're saying like, it's actually important to look through these different perspectives to see something different.

And that's kind of what we were trying to do here, right, Is watch this film from a different perspective of Thanksgiving to see if we can learn something new. I'm gonna throw this to Will first as well because he loves the term how might exercises like this will make us better geekologists. Yeah, yeah.

Just that it's important to look. You know the age old saying of walk a mile someone else's shoes. You can understand what they're.

What they're feeling or thinking or looking through their lens, experiencing, being empathetic of what other people are experiencing in life. And listening to that, I think is really important. Some people may, you know, and that's in the conversation. What's your favorite holiday?

What we're getting at is what you resonate with. So someone may be having a really hard time with Christmas because it's a really hard time and they're not feeling bright and shiny. It's really hard.

Um, and their favorite holiday may be Halloween because it's. It's where they can explore their creativity more than other places. So like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that's your favorite.

Somebody might be much might really love St. Patrick Day Town.

And I get favorite holiday.

That's right. So I think it's important to listen. Why? Why it may be the favorite holiday.

Like Irish. Irish beer, Irish culture. It's all great. Yeah, Yeah, I agree with you on all that.

I, too, think when we're watching films, specifically, because I think it's easy. It's a different conversation with scripture. Some people have a harder time. Some people have an easier time.

I'm gonna give another example of this with pop culture. There was an episode of Doctor who. I think it was not the most recent season. The season before.

I won't give all the details because I don't remember all of them, but it had a lot to do with, like, social media, reattached our phones, AI and all this kind of stuff. And I'm trying to figure out what. What's going on in the episode.

And at the end, you find out, like, hey, actually it's a completely white culture, and it's actually about racism.

And it was so funny because all throughout, like, this was a whole social media, like, fad of, like, every person of color immediately noticed all white people were like, I didn't see that coming at all. And I was one of them.

So I think that stuff like that, like, rewatching that episode, thinking, okay, as a person of color, how would I have viewed this episode of television? So, yeah, this is obviously a different exercise. Just Thanksgiving. It's not as does. It's not that deep, guys.

But I think exercise like this can go a lot deeper if it wasn't specifically what we did this time. Yeah. Yeah. Tj, any final thoughts or words of.

Wisdom about that or the movie as.

A whole in general?

Movie's good. Also, doing things through different lenses. While I don't do it often, watching things, I do it all the time, listening to, and it changes.

Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense. All right, well, with that, then, I think we are ready to start wrapping this one up. And, you know, we have some fun stuff.

We do have a bonus question coming up at the end. I'm gonna give a little context for people.

If you listen to the original soundtrack of Nightmare Before Christmas, the narrator at the beginning and end was none other than Patrick Stewart. Not used in the film. For some reason, they didn't use it in the film. And he's not a character or anything. Film.

And also we mentioned before Thanksgiving Town apparently exists. We never see it. So our bonus question is if Patrick Stewart were a character in Thanksgiving Town, what character might Patrick Stewart be? Yeah.

So if you. If you want to hear us answer that. Yeah. Go go over to our website down in the description, become a member.

You'll get to see that TJ's gonna help me with some names here because I do.

We're not gonna do recommendations, but we do want to recommend, if you like, Nightmare Before Christmas, to check out the comic coming out next January by.

By the authors. I thought you were going to say by the date. Torn. I believe it's Grinbeck. That's right. Will, you met Edumina Adriano, Augusto and Taylor Esposito.

They're working together to create a new Nightmare Before Christmas comic with Tim Burton's blessing.

Yeah, I'm there. Man. I love Torn. I like Torn. She did. She did some work on Thor and other things. And so, man, I would never have picked up this comic except for them.

The author, I can't see their take.

Which is really funny because I don't recognize any of these names. So I wouldn't pick this up if it wasn't for being Nightmare Before Christmas.

But instead of recommendations, I want to hear what is your favorite Thanksgiving tradition? Will.

Getting to the turkey before anybody else does, Sneaking pieces of meat or dark meat skin after it's been carved. Get your hands away from that. And I'm like, no, no, no. I need to. I need to try it. Taste testing, taste testing.

Stuff I shouldn't be eating before everyone else does. That's my favorite eating before my favorite.

For my family specifically. We do big extended family Thanksgiving. Whole family, you know, usually 60 to 80ish, people we rent out our church with there.

I have a cousin, not going to name him. He runs a tow truck. Lost his leg, you know, a number of years ago.

Every year since then, he goes last and after the prayer, he yells, save a leg for me.

That's my favorite Thanksgiving tradition. Now it has nothing to do with my favorite tradition.

And there's always a leg left for him.

That's a good bit. That's fantastic.

I'm going to give two answers because I have to cheat. My favorite tradition is actually friends giving that we're not doing this year for multiple reasons.

And specifically, it is cooking for friends who to me are like my chosen family. And just being able to have that gift and it be something that's meaningful to me. And guys, I'm not bragging.

This is actually just something that makes me feel good having the people who are really close to me go, man, I don't really like turkey, but Josh does cook good turkey. And that moment and being like, hey, man, I delivered something that really, I love turkey.

And being able to share in that love with other people and acknowledge that I do have talent I am the turkey king. It would be bad of me to be like, man, Thanksgiving's coming again. You know, I can't be that guy. I can't be Jack. My other favorite.

I'm gonna do family one since I don't have friends giving this year. So this will make me feel better. I actually really like, I'm so cheesy for this.

I love after the meal when we stop and, and say what we're thankful for. That part that everybody else hates. My bad opinion. I love it. I, I live for it.

Like, I just, I kind of wish every day, like I could just greet people and then just tell me what they're most thankful for. It would make me feel good about life.

It's like camp. You end of the day you're in a cabin and you're like share, share your highs and lows. You're basically sharing what you're thinking.

I actually in between moves at one point. I had a manager once who let me stay with them for a couple weeks and some of their family. Did everybody like give me your higher low of the day?

They started with lows thankfully because I like the highs better. Just me. Yeah. Yeah. So that's ours. Drop in the comments somewhere. Let us know your favorite Thanksgiving traditions. I never get tired of Thanksgiving.

So if you're listening to this in like February, that's great. My birthday's in February. I'd love to hear your Thanksgiving tradition. I don't care when you listen to this, let me know please.

And of course we are thankful for those who take their time to rate and review our show. Wherever you get your podcast, we're all so thankful for financial sponsors. I'm especially this Thanksgiving.

I'm especially thankful for Ethan over cash. We love you guys.

Also we want to remind you that you can get your own shout out and thanks fullness mentioned for $5 a month becoming a member official member of Smack Ecology on our website. You can do that. You can do that and we'll be thankful for it. Or you cannot do that. We're still thankful for you.

You can get free content on our some extra free content on our website.

You can buy some merch, you can leave a one time financial gift some Thanksgiving if you want to give some thanks that way we'd appreciate it all on our website in the description. I've said that enough times. You should know. I think remember also that we are all chosen people, a thankful people, a geek type of priest.