Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell dive deep into the transformative impact of Thors' legacy on characters Thorfinn, Thorkell, and Askeladd in the manga "Vinland Saga." Kicking off their discussion, they reflect on how Thors' principles of peace and honor ripple through the lives of these Vikings, illustrating the dichotomy between violence and non-violence. They unpack the significance of Thors' on-screen death, which sets the stage for Thorfinn's journey from vengeance to understanding. The duo also explores how Thorkell’s respect for his cousin Thors influences his character and choices, while Askeladd’s ambiguous role as mentor and antagonist complicates Thorfinn's path to self-discovery. With humor and wit, they navigate the intricate relationships and moral dilemmas presented in this gripping narrative, inviting listeners to ponder the essence of strength and honor in both the Viking world and our own.

Diving into the vibrant world of "Vinland Saga", this episode serves up a hearty discussion on the complex relationships and character arcs that shape the narrative. The speakers start by quoting a poignant line from the series, 'You have no enemies,' which sets the tone for a deep exploration of themes like honor, sacrifice, and personal growth. They delve into the life of Thors, the protagonist's father, whose pacifist ideals stand in stark contrast to the violent Viking culture, creating a ripple effect that impacts Thorfinn, the main character. The hosts analyze how Thors' unwavering commitment to non-violence and respect for life influences not only his son but also those around him, including supposed foes like Askeladd. The conversation shifts to the intriguing dynamics between Thorfinn and Askeladd, highlighting the complexity of their mentor-student relationship that evolves from vengeance to mutual respect. The episode encapsulates how the series challenges conventional notions of strength and honor, making listeners ponder the deeper implications of these themes in their own lives.

As the discussion unfolds, the speakers take listeners on a rollercoaster ride through the highs and lows of Thorfinn’s journey, emphasizing his transformation from a revenge-driven boy to a more reflective individual shaped by the lessons learned from his father and enemies alike. They highlight critical moments, such as Thors' tragic demise, which not only propels Thorfinn into a quest for vengeance but also serves as a catalyst for his eventual enlightenment. The hosts also touch on the contrasting characters of Thorkell and Askeladd, discussing how Thorkell's love for battle and Askeladd's cunning nature add layers to the narrative. The episode is peppered with witty banter and relatable insights, making the heavy themes accessible and engaging. It’s a thoughtful exploration of how personal beliefs can shape one's path and the intricate web of connections that define human relationships, all set against the backdrop of Viking lore.

Wrapping up the episode, the speakers reflect on the broader implications of Vinland Saga's themes in contemporary contexts. They compare the honor-shame culture depicted in the series to modern societal norms, questioning what it means to truly honor one’s beliefs in a world often driven by conflict. The humor and camaraderie between the hosts provide a refreshing lens through which to view these serious topics, inviting listeners to consider their own values and the legacies they wish to leave behind. Ultimately, the episode encourages a dialogue on the strength found in vulnerability and the power of choice, leaving audiences with a sense of connection to both the characters and their own lives. It’s an engaging listen for fans of anime, manga, and anyone interested in the deeper themes that resonate within storytelling.

Takeaways:

• In 'Vinland Saga', Thors' philosophy that 'you have no enemies' profoundly impacts Thorfinn's journey toward understanding non-violence.
• The characters of Thorfinn, Thorkell, and Askeladd are shaped significantly by their interactions with Thors, highlighting the theme of legacy in the series.
• Thors' on-screen demise serves not just as a plot point but as a catalyst for Thorfinn's transformation from vengeance-seeker to a pacifist.
• The relationship dynamics between Thorfinn and Askeladd reveal deeper themes of mentorship and moral conflict within the violent Viking culture.
• Thorkell's character embodies the idea of strength through honor, challenging the notion of toxic masculinity often portrayed in warrior narratives.
• The exploration of honor-shame culture in 'Vinland Saga' provides a fresh perspective on how characters navigate their identities and moral choices.

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Systematic Geekology

Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.

You have no enemies. No one in the world is your enemy. There is no one you need to hurt.

That's a quote from the manga Vinland saga we're going to be talking about today in our Faces behind you series as we discuss the characters behind the main characters and some of our favorite franchises. Thor's is awesome. DJ Agrees. That's the end of the episode. Hope you guys enjoyed it.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, I am Joshua. I'm just here to introduce the Pod Almighty, the one who started it all back before dinosaurs.

He created a podcast about dinosaurs, and that's how we got the dinosaurs. The one and only TJ Tabriz. One Blackwell. How's it going?

Good.

Yeah, I feel like that's like more than paleontologist. I was gonna say paleontologist, but then I'm like, no, if you spoke them into existence, I. Studying them doesn't quite feel appropriate.

You know, it's like, yeah, I think there's.

Why would you need this thing that could. That can really make a person is dinosaurs.

Yeah. Anyway, so we're gonna talk about what we've been geeking out on lately before doing anything else.

I have very slowly been trying to make it through that last season of the Boys. I just haven't cared for it after, like, season two. But, like, I feel committed at this point, you know, gotta see it through.

I like the messaging and everything. It just.

Like the tropes and everything just.

Yeah, like the tropes and the gimmicks and everything. It just. It's like, okay, you can only see someone get beat up by a penis so many times without being like. And, you know, some points just. Okay. Yeah.

What about last week? You've been geeking out on anything.

Yeah, yeah. Tekken 8. It really is. Is great if you. If you want to get into something that is more complex than, like, real life.

Yeah, that actually sounds terrible. I want something less complex than.

Yeah, don't play Tekken.

Yeah. Well, I'm just gonna watch some Disney movies. Yeah, that's my new. Geeking out. Preparing to go to Disney World at the end of the year. Yeah, really am.

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A lot. Small donation of like $130,000 a year.

Yeah.

Will allow the two of us to just stop working.

We'll just do this for you. Yeah. True, true. Speaking of small donations, we do want to thank one of our financial supporters today. I'm shouting out Ethan overcash.

Ethan, you're amazing, dude. Thank you so much. I've met him before, love him. I'm hoping to meet him again at geek camp here Lutheridge, near the end of this year.

So if you guys want to know more about that, maybe I'll remember a link in the show notes and if not, follow us on social media because every so often Will just takes over and posts about that event because he gets really excited about it. We're also really excited about Will, so that's fair.

If you want your own shout out like Will and Ethan, you can become an official member of sitsmarke Ecology by going to our website. The link is in the show's description and you can learn more about that there. Same website.

You can buy a T shirt, you can, you know, leave a one time donation. You can find some other bonus content. The T shirt for this year's annual theme, the faces behind us looks really good.

I love it, especially in purple because it looks good in purple. Things that look good in purple make me happy. Yeah.

So if you want to check that out, that's also on our website and you know it's only going to last the rest of the year and now we're more than halfway through it so now saying that means something.

Yeah. Gotta hurry.

Yeah. So check out that T shirt, some of the other one, other designs, etc.

If you want to hear more of us talking about the faces behind us, the people that inspire the main characters from our franchises. Same just down below description, there's a different link for that. Lots of links down there.

Lots of ways to participate in what we're doing, hear what we have to say, geek out with us and just, you know, enjoy all the geeky goodness together. Yeah, we appreciate all of you who take the time to do such a thing. And now we're going to jump into the main topic of today's episode Finland Saga.

So before anything else, a lot of our listeners maybe aren't huge into manga or anime.

Like I feel like when you're talking about like Star wars or Lord of the Rings, you don't have to stop and explain what you're talking about, but I feel like you Might. You might need to. For this. So, tj, what, like, what's the premise? What is Vinland Saga? When did you first read it? Tell us something about this.

Yeah, so Vinland Saga is kind of like a manga adaptation of. That's a good way to frame this. The discovery of America, the Vikings, discovery of America, Leif Erikson's journey, kind of, sort of.

That's the driving force. At least that's why it's called that. So Vinland is the name that they use to refer to the new continent in the 9th century, 11th century.

So we follow Thorfinn, the main character of Vinland Saga when it starts. He's super young, just Viking doing Viking things. And at the time, oh, who was the king at the start?

I honestly don't remember these names. Not Harold.

The nice thing about, like, manga and comics is I could do what I do in real life and remember people's faces and have no idea what their names are.

Yeah.

But it is a little bit more relevant because Vinland Saga is kind of like an alternate history manga because it is heavily based off of real world history, English and like, Norse specifically. So there was a lot of times when I was reading it around be like, oh, yeah, I know that. I knew that happened. I remember that.

I wasn't there, but I remember reading about it and I was there. But it's really good story about orphans.

Been around since before the dinosaurs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was there.

Probably started Vikings too. You did a Viking podcast before Vikings?

No, I did not. Yeah, I did not start the Vikings. That's. That's problematic.

Okay, fair enough.

Yeah, yeah.

But Thorfinn is our main character and we follow him through his path in life from Viking to pacifist to explorer, and he makes a pit stop through Slave on the way there, like many Vikings did. So great, great, phenomenal story. If you haven't read it, you should. For a first manga, I think it's great.

I started reading it because I'd caught up on Berserk and I wanted to read something that was like, more.

More mature, you know, like kind of not in the same vein as Berserk, but with the same tendencies, same audience in mind, and everything said, read Vinland Saga and Vagabond, which is also good, but on a permanent Hiatus. So Vinland Saga, which is now finished, is better. Definitely better.

I like being able to read things that are finished.

Yeah, it's awesome.

Yeah.

But I was, you know, I was reading it before it finished, which was also really great. Being excited to look forward to something like this was awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like. Actually, I feel like I would have been okay watching this, like, season that I didn't even watch the anime.

Like, I watched part of it.

I didn't either.

It moved too slow for me. Which one piece. And that's the only time I've ever really think I've had that problem where. But this is moving too slow.

Yeah, yeah.

I had to read the book cards on the table.

I have no clue what the anime is like. No idea.

The few I've seen were like, it was good. But I like for context, super adhd. I hyper fixate sometimes. I watched like two or three episodes.

I was gonna like read as I went and I just needed to know what happened. Way too bad to sit there and try to watch it. I read way faster than I could watch something. So I just like hyper fixated on it.

My first time reading, I think was literally last year. I started the anime way back when y' all did an episode about it for something else. Oh, the year. Yeah, yeah.

There was an annual theme one year of world religions and y' all covered it. And I started the anime and I was like, this is really good. It just didn't stick. And then last year I was like, I'm gonna do it.

I think when I started trying to read the manga and watch, I was like, oh, if I just read the manga, I make it through this so good. So I've read it twice in a year and it is not a short series. I mean, it's like 250 volumes or chapters. Not even something.

Not even chapter something. But It's, I think 247, I want to say. But yeah, I guess that's long. I guess that's for me. I'm used to one piece is almost at 2,000.

So some of the main characters. We're probably only going to really talk about the first 40, 50 ish chapters.

We'll touch on the other stuff, but I think we're probably going to focus there. I am. TJ might go further. Not sure. But like, I'm thinking about the story of Thors, particularly as it pertains to Thorfinn, Thorkell and Askeladd.

And I might be mispronouncing these names because again, didn't watch the anime.

That's pretty good.

Sweet. Yeah. So we're gonna be talking about that because Thors had one of, if not the most poignant like on scene death that I've seen.

Probably the most poignant on anime. Although one piece. Not sure. But yeah, you guys get the point. It happened. It was waitful. And I'm like, man, that happened so early on. How? What?

I was confused because the way you guys talked about it in the other episode, I was like, thought this was gonna happen near the end of this series. This is the beginning. This is how it starts.

Yeah, it really is just how it starts. Was it in the first episode of the anime?

I think it was for sure.

It didn't like the first chapter of the manga.

I was like, how you barely know anything. But you do find out more as you go. And the interesting thing is you find out more from his son a little bit who's like the main protagonist.

But I feel like you find a lot more from other people who were either his enemies or fought alongside him who disagreed with the lifestyle he chose. In the end, you learn more about him from them than you do his son. And it's like they really respect him, Even his enemies.

Like, I respect this guy and I don't know, I thought that was really cool.

And just seeing how that made impacts on other people who weren't necessarily impacted in the way that you usually think of it, like, oh, yeah, I'm going to be like him. It was more of a. I respect that guy.

And even if I'm not going to join that side all of a sudden, I know that there's a level of honor to this thing that actually matters.

Yeah. I look up doors a lot. That's kind of the person I'd like to be, you know, like six foot eight.

That would be cool Again, always. You break up height every time we talk.

But it's funny because if I'm. I'd have to look up to him because he was huge. Yeah.

I mean, everyone basically, yeah. But like.

Yeah, yeah, basically. But it's. He's super cool and he just. He lived that life so strongly that everyone couldn't help but notice.

Yeah, well, so I think too, what's really cool is like a lot of times when a big character dies, it's like either to show you how evil the bad guys are or to show that he was that valiant, that he made the sacrifice. And I just don't feel like it was either. Like in a weird way, like the bad guys, really. Yeah. They're bad, but they weren't that bad.

They weren't the worst bad guys in the series by any means. And like, he wasn't just sacrificing himself to save somebody. He was just didn't want to hurt people, basically is why he died.

And it's like, oh, is that actually that important? And I think that's what the rest of the series kind of tries to answer.

Yeah, I think it succeeds.

Yeah, I do.

Six Atlantic.

Not a main point, But I do want to say too, I usually don't like reading about or like talking about, like, honor shame cultures. I'm just like, oh, I don't like this. This show portrays it in such a way where I'm like, this doesn't feel as toxic as you see it.

To me, a lot of Southern Americans, it's kind of toxic, that honor shame thing. We call you names until it's peer pressure or whatever. Or I have to do this to prove I'm tough.

And it's just not that the honor shame in this, I'm like, I don't like honor shame as a system because it feels like it makes everything transactional, which makes true altruism harder, which is something I value. But I watch this going, ah, I don't know, man. This particular honor shame system, you still get Thors. You get Thor kill. You're like a lot of people.

I'm like, I can't read all of these chapters and walk away thinking they're not incredible people, even though you know they're not real, but still.

Yeah, they're based on real people. The Snorlssons are real people.

Yeah, that counts. Yeah.

Yeah. The Snorlssons are the family that Thors and Thorfinn, I guess Thorkell are based on.

But they historically are the reason that we have so much Norse mythology. Snorri Snorlson was instrumental in keeping that mythos alive, which is, by the way, which is Thor's dad. Snorri Snorlson is Thor's dad.

Crazy grandpa's getting thrown in. But so I mentioned we want to focus on Thors, Thorfinn, Thorkell and Askeladd.

If you had to give like a one sentence summary of each of these characters so people know for reference who we're talking about. Yeah. Who are Thors? Thorfinn, Thorkell and Askeladd.

Thors is the father of the protagonist and the main driving force behind his internal conflict. Thorfinn is the protagonist, young Viking growing up and realizing that his dad was correct. Thorkell is the great uncle of the.

Of the protagonist of Thorfinn and super huge, super buff, super strong, super Viking. So cool, so cool. Just super cool guy. He wrestles a bear and wins.

It's one of those, like, he shows up. I'm sorry, Thorkell. To me, he showed up and I'm like the annoying frat guy of Vikings.

Two pages later, I'm like, nah, this guy is like, this guy's just great. I don't know, man. Yeah, yeah.

And Askeladd is, for at least the first half of the series, the main antagonist who, you know, further enforces Thorfinn's inner conflict. He's the one who's responsible for killing Thors. Yeah.

Which for me, and I don't know if this because, like, I'm just a freak, because, like, I'm weird, but even when I read it, it felt like going back to like Harry Potter. And it's like I'm supposed to suspect Snape the whole time and I'm like, nah, this guy's good. I don't know why, but this guy's good.

You know, like just kind of tell.

Yeah, but not. He's not good. He's good for Thorfinn, but he's not good. He's definitely a bad guy, but he's not evil.

Yeah, that, that's, that's what I mean.

Not beyond the amount that they're all evil, which is a little bit. And that's why Thor's attaches himself to that, you know, that. Oh, what's, what's a good word for it?

Stoicism and inaction, as he does because of that guilt. But that is what we're going to talk about next because of Thors life and change.

Going from one of the strongest Vikings around as a part of the Chams Vikings to a pacifist who refuses to hurt people, who throws aside his weapon, says, hey, this is how a warrior should live. This is how you're supposed to live. I have no enemies. We are all, you know, we're all people. It was kind of his point.

But the strength with which he lived that life is what had such a strong effect on Thorkell, who is, you know, at the time, legendary Viking general, who's just kind of, you know, if you can afford it, hire Thorkell and you'll, you'll get the job done. Askeladd, who just genuinely could not understand why someone with so much power as Thors would cast that all aside.

And Thorfinn, who, by the way, can we pull that picture up again of Thors As a pincushion standing on the boat. Thorfinn, if you're watching Thorfinn, is sitting like. Yeah, like, right there. Thorfinn just had to watch.

Yeah. So, yeah, pretty tragic. Yeah, pretty, pretty tragic.

And he's young. He's super young. He's like 12 when that happens.

And he just has to live with that and fight against that ideal that his father upheld because he can't wrap his head around it. He just becomes a super violent, super cool kid.

Yeah, until he becomes cooler and less violent.

Yeah, you've come cooler in less violent. But he's so cool, which.

Really. So I think that's what provides the, like, some of the most interesting relationship dynamic is between Thorfinn and Askeladd.

And it's because of this moment where Askeladd's like, oh, this guy really was committed to nonviolence. And then you have this kid who's like, honor shame culture, but he's like, I'm gonna defeat you, Askeladd. And I was like, okay, come along.

I'll give you a chance to fight me every so often if you do these things for me. Refuses to ever kill the kid, knowing that the kid's whole mission is just to kill him. So it's kind of a really weird antagonist relationship there.

Yeah. And the reason Askeladd's plan, I think, if I'm remembering this right, was to get.

He was trying to get Thors to break on that oath that he took and lash out against them. And in watching him not do that, realizes that he was wrong.

And that's what encourages him to, like, take Thorfinn under his wing and teach him what life is like and life is not good. You know, this is the Middle Ages. Life kind of sucks, especially for Vikings and mercenaries, because Askeladd's not even a Viking.

It's a mercenary, which is different.

Yeah, yeah. Because he's not really good or bad, you know, Deadpool.

He's a deuteragonist, technically, I believe.

Yeah, yeah. Instead of a merc with a mouth, though, it's a merc that's honor bound and heartless. Axel, that's such a weird character.

Okay, we need to move along a little bit. Thorfinn, though, we see him most of the time. We see him in his, like, teenage era here.

The first, again, 40, 50 chapters that I really wanted to focus on. But you do see him afterwards. And so I already mentioned that how weird that relationship with Askeladd is.

Askeladd dying really changes the narrative of Thorfinn and The funny thing is, I'm convinced that the reason Askeladd never killed Thorfinn was because of Thors.

And I'm convinced the reason Askeladd eventually died and didn't risk Thorfinn's life in his plan again, goes back to the impact Thor's had just by virtue of his own character. So I guess, in a weird way, so we see how Thor has impacted Askeladd.

How did Askeladd really change Thorfinn and who he was and what we see after those 40 chapters that I wanted to focus on. And now I'm asking you about everything that's not that.

Yeah, yeah. So it's really interesting. The.

The biggest change that Askeladd causes in Thorfinn is kind of the message that Thors tried to teach him through dying. Accomplishing that goal kind of let Thorfinn focus on what that meant and what that meant for his father. And it destroyed him with guilt, basically.

And they lost, of course, and he became a slave. And that caused a little bit of character development. And it's during that time where Thorfinn was like, oh, oh, man. Okay. My dad was right.

My dad was right the whole time. I have no enemies. There's no one on Earth that is my enemy. And he stopped using weapons. And he didn't.

He doesn't pick up another weapon for the entire series not to use. At least he'll pick them up to say, hey, we don't need these.

Yeah, he does that. I feel like he still embraced violence slightly more than his dad. I feel like.

I feel like he was still like, no, when it's necessary, I'm going to do it. Yeah, his dad was never that. Which, I don't know.

Like, I feel like a certain level of pragmatism, you guys, know, like, I'm not a big fan of utilitarianism, but stand on virtue. But if something's just totally impractical, maybe don't be stupid also, you know?

And by the end of the story, though, he does reach that point where he's like, violence is never the answer. Violence can't be the answer. But that's only, like, the very end up until that point.

He's like, yeah, weapons are lame, but these hands are for everybody.

Which, honestly, was a much cooler fighting style.

I thought being a kid and using two knives and just running around like a demon is. Was pretty. Pretty cool and funny.

I do think those first 50 chapters would be a much more fun video game.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. All right.

So a lot of the. If it was all adapted. A lot of it would just be sailing.

Yeah. And not like fun sailing, but with good music, hopefully. I mean, Viking.

Viking music.

Viking music school. Viking metal. Okay, fine. So we kind of already went over Ask Lad. So I'm skip that here and just ask you. Thorfinn.

I mentioned to me at first it came off as like frat dude, and then two pages in, I'm like, oh, this dude rocks. Dig a little bit deeper. So who's Thorfinn? We kind of learn, sorry, Thorkell.

How do we kind of learn about his relationship with Thorfinn's dad after Thorkell kind of beats the crap out of Thorfinn, but, you know, after a few encounters, he's like, I respect this kid. You're a lot like your dad. And like. Wait a minute. What? Yeah, tell us something about that.

What his relationship with Thors was, how Thors impacted Thorkell and how Thorkell eventually makes a difference on Thorfinn. Again, relationships are all entangled here. See that will. See, I mentioned the thing, so I'm.

Sorry, I lost my thoughts. Oh, I was gonna say train of thought, but it's all gone.

Thorkel, honestly is like that big, super strong Viking guy, but he's also, he's a stand up guy.

He's a real stand up guy and he loved his nephew Thors and he respected him because Thors was the only person stronger than Thorkell basically in the entire world.

Yeah.

So he took that and he was like, okay, well, if Thors really died for what he believed in, maybe he believed in something that made some sense. He didn't agree ever. He stayed himself. But that respect again allowed him to change his perspective a little bit.

And then when he meets Thorfinn, he's like, oh, you're Thor's son. We're cousins, you know.

Yeah.

And they're like fighting to the death at the time. Like, it's crazy.

It's a lot of fun, it's awesome. I think Thorkell, this is gonna sound really counterintuitive to that whole thing where I'm like, honor, shame, culture and toxicity. Thor kill.

Just wants to fight people, man. Like them just a big sport. He's having fun with it.

Like, he's literally a few times choosing what side of the war he's on based on who can I fight the most? What's the hardest challenge? He wants a challenge. He wants to fight. He knows his purpose in life. He's committed to it. That's what he's going to do.

So, like, I love Thorkell for that. Even though, you know, I don't love violence and I don't like the whole honor shame, making us do things that maybe aren't always the best thing.

But Thorkell Thorkell is pretty awesome. And then like one of the coolest moments is actually this to me, I really like this scene. I call it a scene. Is there still a scene in if it's manga.

Anyway, Thorkell, Askeladd and Thorfinn are all kind of in this one place.

Askeladd's injured, Thorfinn and Thorkell are about to have a big fight and all three are present and Askeladd's kind of giving Thorfinn tips to win this fight against Thorkell. And Askeladd's kind of been the antagonist the whole time. So it's kind of weird.

Tj, could you unpack like what's going on in the scene and like what changed that? Because after this they all kind of team up and move forward together into. I don't remember where they go from here. In my mind, big city time.

But that's not what it's called. Yeah, yeah. Could you unpack some of this scene?

I can try.

I'm no literary analyst, but it serves as a good representation of that conflict that I was talking about in Thorfinn where he's trying to choose or trying to understand his dad's point of view and also his own role in the world where he's probably the most dangerous 16 year old alive, but he's fighting against like a real living legend. And it's at this moment that he starts to.

Well, this arc, this little mini arc, these few chapters where he starts to understand that Askalette has kind of become his father figure and that he's learned a lot from him, a lot more than he wanted to because, you know, it's for him, he's just in this to kill him. Just in it to get his vengeance. So this is a major turning point for Thorfinn to get him to the point where he is amenable to change.

Yeah, you worked that a lot better than I was going to be able to. So thanks.

They had to get in their hits while they could also knip tier at this point Canute be the king of England.

Do you think a lot of this setup was made? Because, man, wouldn't this scene be cool? And it was.

Yeah, he had to get those out of the way because, you know, the back half of this story is like slow burn.

And you know, Thorpin has leader and learning to be like his dad, but in his own way. And.

Yeah.

Which is cool. Just a different kind of story. Very different kind of story.

Great. So good. It's so good. But it's not a battle Shonen, you know?

Yeah.

It gets very mature later. So they got to get all the cool fights out of the way.

Yeah. Which I was all about. I love the cool fights. And then at that point you're just committed to the characters.

So then you're gonna be there for the drama and the philosophical quandaries and the character arcs, even if there isn't a lot of cool fighting all the time. Yeah. Oh, it's great. So, yeah. We do gotta ask, as we do with all this, if the face behind you was gone, what would the rest of the story be like?

So without Thors, what happens to Thorfinn, Askeladd and Thorkell tj.

So. Well, they all probably die in battle.

I'll say. I don't know. Thorfinn, he might die before he gets old enough to get into battle.

Honestly, if he's just in that peaceful village by the time they get there, he gone.

Yeah. Well, I mean, if it wasn't for.

Because he wouldn't learn from Askeladd or anything. He wouldn't have learned how to fight.

If it wasn't for Thors, Thorfinn literally wouldn't exist.

Yeah, that's true. He wouldn't be born fair. Yeah. The other two, I feel like, are easier. I feel like Askeladd just remains immersed. I think Askeladd lives longer. Truly.

Honestly, I feel like he doesn't have as much heart. He's just gonna do where. Go where the money is. He probably lives longer that way, but he just never has a character arc. I feel like he never changes.

I mean, Askeladd and Thorkel realistically probably would have ended up fighting each other.

Oh, Thorkel would have killed him. No problem.

Maybe.

Probably. I don't think. I think Thorkell have an issue.

Maybe. Probably. But Thorkel would have fought until he died.

Oh, absolutely. And he would have had a blast doing it. He would have died a lot sooner. It's funny, I think Thor kill would have died a lot sooner.

As Glad would have lived a little bit longer.

Yeah. Not a lot longer.

Yeah. A little bit though. You know, money.

Yeah.

But yeah. And I don't think. Yeah. Neither of them, I feel like, have growth. Like, I don't think Askeladd becomes the person who's willing to. To die for a cause.

I don't think Thorkell ever changes at all to Be beside a leader. Like, I don't think he ever has a commitment to anyone. I think he just remains committed to fighting.

Whereas the series as we have it, I feel like he does develop a little bit of a commitment to the king, a little bit of commitment to Thorfinn. And I don't think you ever see that from Thorkell. If it wasn't for Thors and all these other interactions. Yeah, yeah.

And it goes beyond, like, devotion to his brothers in arms, which he always had. Yeah, that's not what we're talking about.

Yeah, yeah. Just great art. This is like some of the best character arcs, I feel like. Just good story, man.

So just to recap, the four people we're talking about here, Thors, his role is basically, he was a great warrior once, went to live a peaceful life and be family day, and was forced back into war and dies. Thorkell, great leader, just signs up whichever army is, has the biggest challenge that he can fight the most people because he loves fighting.

Eventually he changes a little bit on that role.

But Askeladd is the mercenary who ends up taking on a fatherly role because of some kind of sense of guilt or something, maybe where he's a father figure to the kid who wants to kill him. And then Thorfinn, especially for the first.

We'll say this first chunk of the story we're talking about has to be mentored by someone he wants to murder, then steps into a leadership role trying to live out nonviolence. So of those four, whose role would you most want to take on if you had to step into their role?

Yeah, just like me.

Yeah.

Just.

DJ Blackwell is going to step in to the role of Ask Lad.

Yep.

Yep.

I love fighting kids. I'll do it all day.

I'm going to mentor this kid who wants to kill me.

Yep. It's going to be a great time.

You know, sometimes that's how what I feel like our job is.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's out of context for some people, but funny as hell for others. Man, I have a really hard time answering this.

Yeah, none of them really have easy lives.

I'm gonna go with Thorkell because I do love a challenge. And eventually he kind of becomes the number two, the advisor. After going through some stuff, putting in the time, if you will. I feel like.

I feel like as far as roles go, I would never want to be Thorkell. Personality type, wildly different. Kind of like his role, though. I'm gonna lead the army.

We're gonna do some fighting, and eventually I'm gonna Be someone's number two hand.

And you would, you would die.

Oh yeah. But like that's why I don't like I'm gonna get his strength too, taking his role. I'm also gonna ask for a story. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you could get their abilities if you want. You just keep your personality.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

I'll be Thorndale as well.

Sweet.

Yeah.

He seems like he has the most fun out of anybody, I think. Yeah, yeah.

I mean honestly though, I would, I would probably be asklet anyway.

Yeah, Honestly, I see you kind of not as an ask lad in the sense of like you're just do stuff for the money but like as far as like you could. You. You being a mentor to somebody who hates you and you're just like, I don't care that you hate me. I could see you doing that.

I don't think I could do it. I care too much about people liking me.

Really don't like money.

Yeah, that's the other problem.

That's the funny part.

You're allergic.

That's cash. That's the least like him. I am the aspect we have the least in common.

Yeah, it's funny. You wouldn't do it for money, but you just kind of do it. You want me to mentor this kid? What skill?

We go, okay, sure, why not?

Yeah, yeah. Me, I like, I love the idea of like I'm just going to lead this team. Not necessarily into battle. I just like the idea of leading teams.

Not necessarily like one on one mentorships, but the idea of leading a team, I love that. That's fun. And then the idea of being someone's number two, I like that too. But something about that direct like mentor, mentee.

I don't want to do that, man. I think I've done that enough times. I'm just tired of it. I think that's what it is. Yeah. I'm sick of this. I get why Jesus had the 12.

If it was just him and Peter, he might have killed Peter. You know?

Definitely.

That's a joke. I do not think Jesus would have murdered Peter.

He would have.

Sorry to all.

Our Catholic Father and Thomas Doubt me again.

Listen, I'm just going to throw this out here. This is a random. I have some Bible pet peeves for those who don't know this is a random one. I hate people saying doubting Thomas.

I get where it comes from because he was like, oh, let me touch the wound. Throw it out there. I'm a Thomas apologist. That's what I am. When Lazarus was Dead. All the apostles are like, oh, Jesus, why would you do this?

This is stupid. He's already dead. And Thomas is like, nah, Jesus has this. He was the only one who believed in him. He doesn't deserve doubting Thomas.

That nickname just isn't merited. I'm sorry. The rest of them doubted first.

What do you want to call it?

Trust but verify Thomas.

Yes, Trust Thomas.

Anyway, so Thomas the truther. Oh, man. So we mentioned before, this series has a lot to do with, like, the honor shame kind of culture.

How important do you think honor is to how we influence others? Because the reason Thorkell really saw what Thors did wasn't because he was like, oh, sacrifice is important, or, oh, his beliefs were good.

He didn't care about the guy's beliefs. He was like, oh, there was honor that he was willing to die for his beliefs.

So how important do you think honor actually is in our ability to influence other people?

It kind of depends on the other people. Or your definition of honor is. Yeah, so bad question. Move on. But yeah, it really does depend on your definition of honor.

Because for some people, it's a big deal. You know, for some people, it allows them to. Even if they disagree with you, like, okay, but he's, you know, he's a good guy.

So maybe I should listen sometimes.

Yeah, Yeah. I think for me personally, it matters a lot.

But yeah, again, I do think it just depends on who you're trying to influence, because I have several friends who are utilitarian, you know, whatever. I've already mentioned several times, I hate utilitarian arguments. Some friends who believe that way act on that.

But I know them like they are people who are trying to do good. I trust them, I respect them. Don't like their argument. Don't like why they're doing what they're doing. I could be wrong.

And so out of honor, I'm like, hey, they're committed to that belief. Sure, I'm down with that.

The thing that makes me most mad at, like, movies and stuff or like, whatever are people that I won't ever listen to are people who aren't going to do what they say they do or will say. I believe this, but then act otherwise. Right. Like, to me, part of my biggest problem with a lot of, oh, this is bad on a.

Well, hey, we're not on the church unity show right now. Ah, yeah, sorry. We have another podcast that's about church unity called the Whole Church Podcast. This is not applied to that podcast.

Yep.

Yeah, but I have trouble sometimes listening to More conservative Christians, especially Southern Baptists.

Because I'm like, the amount of times you say you're about, you know, sexual ethics, you care about, you know, answering to other people or doing the right thing, purity. And then the amount of times you're caught covering up sex scandals and stuff, I'm like, do you care about that?

I have a much harder time believing what they say at face value because I've seen them act otherwise. Then you have, as an example, someone else on the show, another host who is a Baptist. Christian. Ashley. I disagree with him all the time.

He says something that he believes, something I trust wholeheartedly. He's going to act in that belief because I know Christian, and he's a man of honor, which is.

Which is worrying sometimes.

Yeah.

But I mean, it's also why, like, if I have one advice, I'll still go to Christian even though I disagree, because at least I know he's going to be straight with me. Some people just tell me what I want to hear. Christian won't.

But if you're a lobbyist, stay far away from Christian. Ashley.

Amen. Verily. Verily. All right, one last. One last question. Digging to dig a little deeper before we wrap this up.

One of the coolest things in this series is how it portrays Christianity. And it's not like, hey, everyone convert to Christianity. They were right. Jesus is the answer.

But it just kind of shows, like, the idea of Christianity that is nonviolent, that is turning the other cheek, that is loving your neighbor of not having enemies. And even though it's not like an evangelist tool, like, that's not what the show is trying to do.

It's interesting how it portrays that and how you see some of the characters reacting to, hey, we thought this was weak. You're going to just turn the other cheek, let them fight you. But then you see images like, I got to put it back on the screen.

Sorry.

You see images like this, and you're like, yep, can't call that weak. Thor's being willing to be shot several times, and I'm just not going to kill someone because that's not what I do, not what I believe.

You can't look at that and say it's weak. And how many people were really challenged by that because they thought nonviolence was weak?

And then you see someone willing to die for that belief, and it's like, well, I can't call that weak anymore. It's crazy. So I want to.

T.J. how does the way we see Jesus change the way that we See things like strength and honor, whatever we mean by those things.

Right. I think it is.

Honestly, this is a really great allegory for it is the way that we see Thors and know Thor's strength and see how he expresses it stoically. Yeah. He expresses it through steadfast belief in his ideals.

Yeah.

And that's, you know, hopefully. I don't know how you see Jesus. I think Jesus was very strong.

Oh, yeah.

Getting told you're gonna die, but like, don't worry about it, it'll be fine. And then being okay with going and dying, that takes a lot of strength.

Yeah.

And yeah, this probably helps that you. You're the son of God and everything,.

But yeah, he's also fully man. Yeah. I. I don't like how the verse gets used sometimes, but I.

And we don't have like an explicit thing in the Bible that says this is why Jesus did that. But I think it's really telling that Jesus had some of the disciples pick up swords.

Then when the Romans go to take him and Peter uses the sword that Jesus, okay, we need to have weapons. Jesus goes, put that away.

Like, I believe that was written in the Bible to show the intentionality where Jesus said, no, I could have chose to fight back, but I'm stronger than. That's kind of where I. How I read that. But I don't think the Bible explicitly says that's why he did it.

Yeah. So it really depends on if you view Jesus Christ as strong and honorable, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah.

Fair. Maybe you don't. Fair.

And also just going to shout out another episode that I haven't done yet, but I've done yet. If you're listening, where I probably have talked about what I like in the new Spider man movies, the last two with Tom Holland actually where like.

And it starts in Far From Home, where instead of defeating all these old Spider man villains, which are like, you're like, oh, they're going to show us that Tom Holland's as good as the other Spider man because he can fight them. Nope. He's going to cure them all. He's going to help his enemy. He's going to love his enemy. Sounds pretty Christian. It's not a Christian movie.

You know, Spider man never claims to be Christian, but I'm like, dang. And then in the newest Spider man film, the same thing happens. And in a little bit more of a dramatic way.

I don't want to say exactly because like, spoilers. But what happens in that film, I'm like, this is someone who is committed to loving their enemy unto death.

And that's so powerfully Christian, even though it's not explicitly Christian. And then the cool thing in Vinland Saga is it is explicitly Christian.

And I just.

To me, I see moments like that and I'm like, yeah, that ain't weak.

Yeah.

And unless it's really funny when it, like, starts to happen too, because unless you're, like, aware of what you're reading in the time period you're reading in, it just kind of comes out of nowhere. Like, oh, they're Christian now.

Vikings, Christian churches here, a lot of people don't put those together.

But it is pretty funny when it just pops up.

And historically, it's actually missionary. Just weird. Yeah. All right. Any. Anything else you want to add about Vinland Saga?

How strong Jesus is your creation of the dinosaurs before we start wrapping this up?

Yeah, read Vinland Saga. It is really good. Yeah.

Totally worth it. I said it's long, but it's not like super long. It's like, it's not. If you're committed to reading in the evenings, probably a good week.

You get through it.

Not even.

Yeah, if you're tj, like, less than a day. If you're a normal person, probably. Anyway. All right, let's go and wrap this up. I have fun. I love doing these episodes.

I like talking about the faces behind and seeing, like, what inspires the characters and. Yeah, it's good times. We are going to do a bonus episode really quick, quick. After this.

We're going to ask what other modern stories display violent and honor centric cultures with a generous perspective. You know, I mentioned usually that, like, honor shame thing comes off pretty toxic, but they displayed it pretty well.

Here we're going to talk about some of the other stories we think in pop culture maybe display that.

Well for now though, dj, if you had to give a recommendation for others, video game, comic, anime, whatever, what's something else that you think people should check out?

Honestly, Vagabond. Vagabond's great. It's a manga about Miyamoto Musashi.

But if you're like Josh and you don't want to read anything that's not finished, do not read Vagabond. The author is not going to finish it for as long as his other series, Slam Dunk, is still making him money.

He loves Slam Dunk more than he loves Miyamoto Musashi. So he's gonna keep doing that.

Yeah. Yo. So earlier I mentioned I was gonna find what I was thinking of for the historic Fiction author that I like for my recommendations and I did.

Stephen Pressfield is the author's name I want to recommend specifically. There's a few that I really like. Gates of Fire was good. A Man at Arms though.

Has to do with someone trying to deliver one of Paul's letters during Roman times. A lot of action. Bible adjacent. Pretty cool, so.

Pretty cool.

Yeah. I highly recommend all of Steven Pressfield's books actually. So that's our recommendations for today. Check them out if you want. You don't have to.

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