Christian Ashley and Dr. Leah Robinson dive into the epic showdown of horror icons in this Halloween special, tackling the 2003 flick "Freddy vs. Jason." Right off the bat, they tackle the burning question: do we really lose if either Freddy or Jason comes out on top? As they kick back in their spooky drive-in seats, the duo reflects on the film's unique blend of slasher lore and the sheer absurdity of two legendary monsters squaring off. With witty banter and a sprinkle of nostalgia, they dissect the film's merits and flaws, exploring everything from character depth to iconic moments that make this crossover a cult classic in its own right. As the final episode of this year’s Halloween Drive-In, the conversation flows with both humor and insight, leaving listeners pondering the true cost of horror fandom in a polarized world.

Systematic Geekology dives into a spine-tingling showdown that has long been the subject of debate among horror aficionados: the epic clash between Freddy Krueger and Jason Voorhees. The episode kicks off with a rather cheeky question posed by the host, Christian Ashley, about whether fans truly ‘lose’ if either of these iconic horror figures emerges victorious in their infamous battle. Joined by first-time co-host Dr. Leah Robinson, the episode serves as a reflective and lively discussion on the cultural significance of these two titans of terror as they navigate through their respective legacies. The dynamic between the hosts is infectious, with Leah sharing her insights, adding depth to the conversation while also peppering it with her witty commentary. They reminisce about previous films in the franchises, sparking nostalgia and laughter as they highlight their favorite moments from the slasher genre, all while maintaining a relaxed and humorous tone that makes the listener feel right at home.

As the discussion progresses, they delve deeper into the mechanics of the film ‘Freddy vs. Jason’, exploring the plot intricacies and the absurdity that comes with crossover films. Leah humorously critiques the film’s premise, revealing her kinder disposition towards it compared to her feelings about ‘Aliens vs. Predator’. The conversation flows effortlessly as they touch upon the philosophical and ethical questions raised by the film's narrative—most notably, the moral implications of sedating people to prevent Freddy from haunting their dreams. This segment showcases their critical thinking and ability to engage with deeper topics while still keeping the tone light and entertaining. Leah’s candid reflections on the characters’ motivations and the film’s execution resonate as they both grapple with the horror genre's tropes and clichés, leading to a rich exploration of what makes a horror film compelling—or not.

In wrapping up their analysis, Christian and Leah share their ratings of the film, revealing their differing perspectives while still finding common ground in their love for the genre. The episode concludes with some light-hearted banter about Halloween treats inspired by the film, showcasing their playful camaraderie. The hosts invite listeners to engage with the show by suggesting future topics, reinforcing the community aspect of Cismic Ecology, and leaving fans eager for what’s to come. This episode is not just a review of a film but a celebration of horror cinema, encouraging listeners to reflect on their own experiences with the genre and to embrace the joys of geekdom together.

Takeaways:

• Christian Ashley and Leah Robinson dive deep into the intricacies of horror icons Freddy and Jason, examining their motivations and the themes of fear and power in 'Freddy vs. Jason'.
• They joke about the absurdity of the film's premise, questioning the logic behind a battle between two supernatural beings and the concept of winning or losing in such a scenario.
• The hosts emphasize the importance of relatable characters in slasher films, lamenting the lack of depth in the human cast of 'Freddy vs. Jason' which detracted from the horror experience.
• Leah appreciates the nostalgic thrill of slasher films yet critiques the film's failure to create compelling stakes for its characters, leaving viewers detached from the action.
• Christian and Leah reflect on the ethical implications of the film's premise—sedating people to erase fear of Freddy—posing questions about the morality of suppressing knowledge for safety's sake.
• The episode wraps up with the hosts rating 'Freddy vs. Jason', highlighting its entertaining moments but ultimately acknowledging it as a mixed bag that could have been so much more.

.

You can leave a one-time gift, purchase some SG merch, or become a member on our website:

https://systematic-geekology-shop.fourthwall.com/

.

Check out all of this year's Monster Mash Drive-In series:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/ad0d15c1-0abc-490d-b33a-7330a301fbe0

.

Don't miss any of Christian's episodes:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/ebf4b064-0672-47dd-b5a3-0fff5f11b54c

.

Check out all of our episodes with Leah:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/31290b29-d450-475c-b3f0-89fc76860fd7

Mentioned in this episode:

Donate to our Show / Check Out Free Extras

Check out our show on Fourthwall to donate to the podcast or get free extra content!

SG on Fourthwall

Anazao Podcast Network

Our show is part of the Anazao Podcast Network and you can find other great shows like ours by checking out the whole network with this link!

Anazao Podcast Network

Anazao Ministries Podcasts - AMP Network

Check out other shows like this on our podcast network! https://anazao-ministries.captivate.fm/

Systematic Geekology

Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.

Do we lose if Freddie or Jason wins, we're gonna be asking this question a lot more on today's episode of Cismic Ecology. We are the Priests of the Geeks. I'm your host, Christian Ashley, joined for the first time as a host.

I get to officially introduce to you Dr. Leah Robinson. How's it going, Leah?

It's going well. It's going well. And thank you so much to all the geeks for allowing me to not only be a priest to the people, but a priest to the geeks now.

I appreciate it.

Yeah. This is the last Drive in episode we're doing for the spooky season. So we also get to be the last ones to do that. Hit some milestones there together.

So, Leah, today we're discussing. Of course, you know, we've gone through multiple things. You got to do Aliens. I just did Godzilla versus Kong with tj.

But we're moving on to Freddy versus Jason. What better way to cap off this with one of the, not going to say greatest, one of the crossovers of all time between the two.

So you ready for this one?

I'm so ready. And I will say two of the most iconic. I mean, yes, maybe, perhaps their crossover was not as iconic, but indeed them as separate entities.

Let's be real. If you start naming horror film, people like Freddy and Jason are way up there. Yeah.

This was something that was kind of just kind of destined to happen in some way, shape or form. Is the final product the greatest. You know what, we'll talk about that, but we get to enjoy it.

So, Leah, we have just watched this at the drive in for the first time. What's your first reaction and the first thing you want to say after seeing this movie?

Well, I'm much kinder about this one than I was about the Aliens vs. Predator, which I said, I'll never get that hour and a half back.

But the first thing that I'm going to say leaving the theater is because of the last scene, which we'll talk about. I would turn to you and say, what did they expect to happen? They're both ghosts, right? Like, who was going to win with two ghosts?

I mean, you've got your. Your nightmare demon figure, your. Your Alp, you know, what have you and Freddy. Then you've got your revenant zombie in Jason.

You got to find some way for him to fight. And this is the best they threw out. My reaction to this is, okay, I'm glad I watched it. I think. I don't know how I would fix it.

I'VE had years to think about that, but I haven't actually sat down and said how would I would do it. But you know what? It was fun. It was an okay time. Money was not wasted.

I saw it in the theater, actually, in college. I went. I know I paid money. Money that I did not have to go see this film in college.

Very nice. Yeah, I got into this relatively. Not late, but growing up. Guys, if you've been listening to show, you probably have heard us already.

But just for the new listeners, I was not a horror aficionado growing up. Got into horror in high school after years of being, let's say, a scaredy cat. Very much so.

And they finally just got to the point where I said, look, I'm done with this. I'm going to get into the genre. I'm going to force myself to love it. And you're right. And have to force myself. It ended up being fun.

So part of this growth was getting into both franchises. And I saw this probably on like an AMC or something like that when they were doing one of their marathons of the franchise. And you know what?

I was happy with it.

Yeah. And I don't think all horrors for, like, I don't do.

I don't watch it all, like the gore porn stuff or invasion stuff that is completely outside the realm.

The stuff that I do watch that actually scares me the most is what took me a long time to get into, which is like the Poltergeist conjuring ghosty things. Like if there's like a ghosty or like the Babadook or something that's like hanging out in a corner somewhere. Like that to me is terrifying.

Give me a Jason who can't walk above one mile an hour, or Freddie who, you know, it's. He seems really purposefully placed on Elm Street.

So if I can geographically stay away from them via Camp Crystal Lake or Elm Street, I feel infinitely better about that situation.

But, yeah, I get it. That's fair. Not every. You're not supposed to like everything. It's fine. I'm not a big, like super duper body whore.

Not that it can't be in a film, but if it's like the main focus, I'm done. I'm also not big on rape and revenge horror films. It. That just unsettles me immensely. And I know it's an important subject matter to discuss.

I'm not against discussing it. It's just I don't want to see that on screen. And some of those go way too far.

The Saws and all of that. Like, I don't y.

The torture porn. No, yeah, that's fine.

They're smart, they're chopping hands off. I don't care.

But, like, conversely, I can take a slasher. I can take, you know, some of the gruesome things that happen.

Because, yeah, there's going to be some gory scenes depending on what franchise you're watching, but it's not like the main focus, so you can move on to something else.

Right. And it feels less. This sounds weird. I haven't really thought about. It feels less malicious. It's like an alien or Jason or Freddie. Like, you're right.

It's not just like perpetual. Just gross for gross. Like they're going to kill people. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but, like, and. But you've almost prepared yourself for that.

Like, I feel like there's a rhythm to some of these, like, slasher films where you're like, okay. And even Jason. I told my podcast Christie this because she hates horror.

And I'm like, look, you always know when Jason's about to kill somebody, he's got his own theme music. If you hear that in the background, just fast forward, like they're warning you. It's. It's about to happen.

Yeah. So what do you say? Why don't we break down the film? What happens in Freddy vs. Jason?

Well, it was very much. It feels like a fever with some of these crossovers, like when you describe the plot. So I was describing the plot to A.L.I.E.

versus Predator, and at one stage I just started laughing because I was like, this sounds so insane.

Because it is.

I was like, for reasons. Anyway, so right there. Whatever. So the Freddy versus Jason, essentially.

Well, I rewatched it fairly recently, I think last year, but I. I reviewed it. But essentially it. They have to make a world where both of them exist.

And I sort of looked at the timeline and I think at this stage we're very much in at least. And the timelines for Freddie and Jason get. Are far less congruent than even Alien. But I think Jason's gone to hell at this stage.

Yes. He's also gone to space. I think that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that happened before this one.

It's so insane. Okay, so Jason's in Hill. So Freddy is essentially part of Freddy's power comes from people being afraid of them.

And that's very much established in the movies. And so he is basically Elm street has.

Well, in this area where he terrorized, has essentially taken anyone who had ever encountered Freddy and put them in this sort of, guess, an insane asylum and pump them full of this drug where they basically wouldn't. I guess they'd have sleep, dreamless sleep, so they couldn't. Or that kind of thing. So.

So they're trying to wipe out the memory of him, essentially, because they figured this all, you know, he. He's not into that. He wants his power back. So he decides to resurrect Jason.

Hell, it's a lot of theological mind turns that we're doing here and to bring him back so that Freddie can essentially gain back power through fear that Jason would enact. And again, you can correct me, it's been a minute, but so Jason. This is going to come as a shock to no one.

Jason does, in fact, get brought back to Earth and he doesn't do what Freddy tells him to do. Imagine that, because he's Jason now, he does start terrorizing people.

There's a real scary sort of scene of him in a cornfield at this, like, party outside party, and he's going nuts to all these, like, high school kids. So essentially that Jason is, like, out of control.

And he thinks if he can get him back to Camp Crystal Lake, that there's some way that he can sort of, I guess, drag him back to hell to use another horror film. And so he takes him to Camp Crystal Lake. And I should say, alongside of this, of course, there's a merry band of people that are trying to.

To stay alive, and Freddy's terrorizing them and Jason's terrorizing them, and they're trying to figure all this out. They go to the insane asylum to get the serum and Freddy destroys it, and et cetera, et cetera.

So it all culminates Camp Crystal Lake, where there is a final boss battle between Freddy and Jason. And I don't know if you want me to say the end, but, I.

Mean, it's been out for over 20 years.

Okay, spoiler alert. There are two ghosts. They do this battle, and it's very, like, battle rific and very satisfying in a sense.

And they fall in the water because Jason's deathly afraid of the water because of drowning as a child. And essentially, Freddie gets, like, his hand cut off and, like, Jason's using the hand to, like, get Freddy.

And then the end sort of scene is Jason coming out of the water with Freddy's head. And then you're like, oh, so Jason won, like, well done, home turf advantage. But Freddy winks at the camera at the end and. Yeah, that's the end.

And well said, by the way, in one proposed ending they would have been drawn back down to hell and Pinhead would have been there. The Hellraiser films. And that's another film franchise I'm not into. It just doesn't work for me. But you know what if they wanted to do that?

Sure, but that's not what we got.

In the first one. And it would have been like a decade ago. It didn't make an impression. But like just because this film is clearly fan service, which is a lot of.

But like just to even have the figure of Pinhead down there, I think would like make the horror people be excited.

There were also plans to include the Necronomicon, obviously from Evil Dead. Oh yeah. I don't think rights weren't established to be able to do it or something like that. So this is what we got.

So before we actually had that way. Let's talk about what you love, what we don't love about the movie. Why don't you go ahead and take it away?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love. Because I love both those franchises like Nightmare. I'm big into slasher.

The slasher films like Scream is my all time favorite, as I've said before. So these films are like to me in Halloween. I watch every single Halloween.

There's something about those films that hit a nostalgia for me, which we can. We probably need to go to therapy about that. But they do and, and they're. I find them easy to watch like, because their lore is not that complicated.

Like it's not necessarily like, you know, you don't have to think too hard about it. And like at the same time you can be very scared. Which is fun too because most of the kills are fairly predictable.

Like there's still elements of like, will they get away? Well, won't they? You know, that kind of thing. So I like the two genres they tried. They redid Nightmare on Elm Street.

I don't know if you saw the remake that they did.

Yes, with Haley as Freddy or whatever his name is.

England, I don't think any.

Or is that Robert England?

Robert England, that's right. That's.

He's got. He's a three name actor, whatever his name is. Like Jackie Haley or something like that. I can't remember but it was.

They redid it and essentially I'm gonna call it the Ridley Scott Makeover. They really tried to give Freddy like story because you get it sprinkled in that he's done throughout the original.

It's implied that he said quite out loud right I mean, there's, like, little kids stuff and. And he's been burnt alive. And it's.

There's a lot of, like, hinting that he has done something very nefarious to young children and that the townspeople, like, rebelled against that. These original movies really are those. The new movies really tried to really explain the lore. Like, they made him like a janitor.

Like, they brought it all out, like, did all of this stuff. And so I think they were good. I like them, but I don't necessarily think they were necessary.

Like, in a sense that I liked the aliens having the Ridley Scott effect of getting that background. Like, Jason, you never really get that he just drowns because his camp counselors were having sex and drinking.

And then, you know, he's now been on this revenge tour ever since. I don't know that there's much more to it than that.

He like his. His mom in the first film. He doesn't get the mask until the third film. He just whatever serves the plot. That's what Jason is.

He's a slow mover. You can Usually you. The problem is when you.

This sounds ridiculous, but the problem is when you stop to drink or have sex, you see your body quits moving in a forward motion. Unless you're just a very active drinker, like a jogger while you drink. Because you really just need to have a solid pace, just a solid forward pace.

But he always gets them, you know, because they. I imagine them being like, well, there's a killer here, but you're attractive and there's beer.

So we're gonna have to stop and take a break, you know, and make poor decisions and make poor choices. And that, of course, is where you get the rules. Which I always love from Scream is whenever he's saying there's rules, you. You know, there's rules.

Like, these are the rules to stay alive. And one of them is you don't drink and you don't have sex. And I love that is because they're. I mean, they're fun.

Don't say, I'll be right back, because you won't, you know. But those first two are very much akin to the genres where it just seems like that there's some sort of moral agenda happening underneath as well.

But, yeah, so I think they're just fun, nostalgic films. And they don't require a lot of, like, in depth. Which for me is weird because usually I'm like, I want them. I want the in depth. I want the history.

I don't need it. Jason can Just be Jason sometimes.

That's fine. I am. I prefer my absolutes. I prefer my backstories and everything. But you know what? I don't need to know where the Joker came from.

I don't need to know why Jason can come back to life after being. Being beheaded in the last film that happened. You know what? It's fine. I want to see Jason killing people. You know, I want to see the joke.

There's a comfort to knowing that they'll always be back. Yes, we're. There's a weird comfort, but it's like.

So the kind of anxiety that I have right now with my slasher films is with Halloween, because Jamie Lee Curtis is a person who we can see getting older. And they've established Mike Myers is not supernatural, like, at least in the canon today.

And the newest ones. Yes.

Yeah. But even in the older ones, I mean, he can get stabbed a lot of times, but, like, he was that human child that got older.

But the issue is that he's old now. So I am very interested in how they're gonna. Because there's no way they're gonna let go of that genre. But it'll be interesting, see what they do.

There'll be another reboot, another remake along the way, and they'll probably just have to start over instead of doing the 70s. Or maybe they could just do that there and make a franchise at that point. Or do it in a present. Yeah, yeah. It just works.

They'll find the way to make money.

Oh, yeah. And I'll find a way to watch it.

So is there anything in particular you're not big on in the film?

I. I have always liked Jason more than Freddie. Freddie always kind of was a bit too late. Someone who loves Rocky Horror Picture show was a little too over the top for me. Like, is he. He like.

He's like, jokes, jokes, jokes, and then, Ah, let me call you a female dog. Right. I like the premise of having to fall asleep because I think there is that thing that we all. You can't prevent it.

And all the ways they try to prevent it is very scary. And that you're so vulnerable when you sleep, I think is really interesting. But I've.

Every time the Freddy scenes would come on, I would find myself a little less interested in it because there it. It's almost.

I think I said in the first one, she, like, befriends the Predator and Alien versus Predator, and there's something about that that means that the Predator is not as scary anymore because, like, all of a sudden, he's, like, helping you, or they are helping you. And I think it's with Freddie is. It's not like Freddie's your friend, but, like, Jason doesn't talk.

Like, Jason's just, like, killing, and there's no motivation. There's no, like, here's my plan. It's just like, you get in my way, you're getting mowed down, you know?

Yes.

And I feel like with Freddie, it's just a little too, like, I don't need you to. I feel like I'm a. I'm a creep on a date right now, but I don't need you to talk. Like, just. Just do your thing, you know, like, go on.

But, yeah, so I think with Freddie, it's just a little too. A little too cheese for me. But still scary. The premise is still scary. What about you?

That's. That's fine. Yeah. As far as what I would personally be more afraid of.

Yeah.

I'd be afraid of Freddy Moore. Even as someone who doesn't remember his dreams, if he dreams at all, I assume I do. I just don't. When I wake up, recall them.

That doesn't mean that I have some superpower against them. He probably could use that against me in some way and maybe even activate my REM sleep.

And that's terrifying because you are helpless because your body for normal people are about eight hours. Other people are less like me. But for that amount of time, you're helpless. You have no defenses. You can't do anything.

And God forbid someone have sleep paralysis, which thank God, I have never had. But I have heard horror stories from people who have. But you're awake, but you can't move your body, so you're completely and utterly helpless.

And you're aware that you're helpless. That's something that Freddy could take advantage of.

And you can't wake yourself up, which is. They're always trying to wake themselves up.

I don't have that superpower. I can't Lucid dream. I'd have to be able to remember I dreamed in the first place to do that then. As opposed to Jason.

Yeah, he's a hulking, menacing figure, and he's going to keep coming back no matter how many times you kill him. That's scary. But there's a difference. But as far as, like, whose side I'm on. Yeah, I'm on Jason's side. Compared to the.

In this part of the franchise, alleged pedophile. Then in the remake, actual physical pedophile.

And, well, he's not really Great in this film either, as far as how he treats young teenagers, shall we say. So I guess if my choice is an undead abomination or the pedophilic dream murderer, I guess I'm with the undead abomination.

You know, I think that's a good summary of it, to be fair. I think that's maybe what clouds my judgment, too, of the cheesiness. I'm like, you have no right to be cheesy. You were bad, bad.

At least Jason just drowned. He didn't want to.

I mean, but as far as, like, things that I like, I mean, for what they're doing, it's fine. Of bringing the two together. The idea of, hey, we know how Freddy works. He's essentially become this Tulpa, and the more.

Do you believe in it, the more power he has. So let's remove that and we can get into the ethics of that in a bit. But that's a smart decision, at least the idea of it.

Then, of course, Freddy being Freddy, he has to find a way to come back. So what does he do? Well, we're in a crossover franchise now.

We're going to bring Jason into it, and he starts slaughtering people because that's what Jason does, and he tries to manipulate him by being Pamela Voorhees, pretending to be her. But that can only go so far.

And that's true because in other films, some women have pretended to be her, and it's only led to so far what they could do to Manipul. So, yeah, that works for me. But as far as not liking. It's.

This is kind of a criticism of slashers in general outside of, you know, franchises like Scream, for the most part, I do. Well, I don't know who these people are. I. I couldn't name a single one of them. I think the final girl is Lori.

Laurie Strode, a little bit.

Yeah, something.

Yeah, it was something or Lauren or something like that.

And I just rewatched the film not that long ago, and I don't have the best memory in the world to begin with, but they don't really give them personality. They kind of exist to die. They do some to survive eventually. So that's. That's kind of where I'm at.

So this has been something that kind of was built up after 20 or so years of both franchises being along. Both of them, Nightmare at this point in time, had slightly less staying power than Friday the 13th.

But at the same time, Friday the 13th, the franchise was dying to an extent. No, it's going to different media companies in charge and diminishing returns in the box office. So they decide what did they do?

Crossover, have them fight each other. The fans have wanted it because what do fans do? They like comparing. Contrasting and saying who would win in the fight.

Yeah.

So let's throw it on film. So to you, Leah, does this film live up to the hype of crossing the franchises?

I don't think so. I don't think that it does. I don't. I. But here's the reason why the film itself operates in much the same.

I'm actually going to feed off of your ideas because I think what you said is a real key bit of why I don't love it at like the level I should because of loving these two genres or these two fandoms. You need a Eleanor Ripley. You need a Laurie Strode.

You need a.

You need someone that you can root for that transcends each. You need a Nev Campbell. Like, do you notice when they're not in a film, which is why they always bring them back.

Nev Campbell took out like, was it not in there for like three movies because the pay. And now they're bringing her back because they are like, we need someone to root for.

And I think that's the thing is like, I remember Kelly Rowland was in that film of Destiny's Child fame. She's. But she, she dies eventually. She's not the last girl. But like, that's who I remember out of all of them.

And I only remember it because she was in a girl. Girl band. Like that tells you something. Like, you, you're supposed to be rooting for these people.

And instead I'm just sitting here thinking like, well, I wonder which one of these idiots is going to die next. And I think part of the slasher thing is you're supposed to root for humanity.

And I found in this film I just was like, I don't care what, what happens to you. Even in Nightmare on Elm street, you had.

And I, I don't have her name, but the curly headed 80s girl, she was in quite a few of them, I think, wasn't she? In the beginning? I can't think so. And then Jason, you don't really have a comp. Kevin Bacon dies real quick because guess what he did.

He stopped moving. He was moving for reasons. But yeah.

So I think, I think that's why it doesn't live up, is that I'm now reflecting as you were talking about the ones that I really like, which is where the. It doesn't even have to be the last girl, but it's the last. You know, in Scream, you have a cluster of them that survive.

You know, you get Courtney Cox, you get David Arquette, you get several of them that keep going and you keep rooting for them because they keep coming back and you're like, yes, you know, please survive. So I think that you've got to have some of that. And I don't think it had that. So the investment in the humans were. Was at a minimum for me.

So I think that. That heard it a little bit.

Yeah. A part of what you said reminded me of a phrase I had read on TV tropes. And don't go there if you don't want to ruin your life. But it's.

It's a coin, a phrase coined by, I believe she's a sci fi author. Dorothy Jones. Hate H, H, E, Y, D, T. How the heck you pronounce that? Sorry, if you're listening. And the phrase she said are the eight deadly words.

I don't care what happens to these people.

Oh, no.

And as in like discussing, like watching a film or reading a book, and you go, and I don't care what happens to these people is kind of like the death of your interest in something you're watching, reading, what have you playing. And that's very condemning. And I think this is a condemnation you can definitely throw at this film. And I'm right there with you.

It doesn't live up to the hype because we. We have in the first film. Was Alice is the first final girl or I. I can't remember from Friday. I'm bad at proper nouns now that I'm getting older.

Oh, yeah, There's. There's the. The girl. She's. She gets on the boat and she. But she does survive.

There's something to it when she's brought by the second film. And what happens to her there when Jason comes to kill her? Like, you feel a little something. And then Nancy in Nightmare.

That's right.

Yes. Okay.

You feel something for her and her group of friends and, you know, when Johnny Depp, I assume he had a character name when he dies, you feel a little something because of her reaction to it because you care about what happens to her. We don't have that in this film. I'm not saying they're complete and utter, just cardboard cutouts with no substance at all to them.

But this is definitely first draft as far as making me care. And I would agree. I don't care what happens to these people.

I think we Leaned into the fact that we watch the slashers for the murderous villains, which we do to an extent. But you have to have some sort of reason why it's important that they're killing.

There has to be some sort of concern that draws you in and says, oh, my God, there's a risk here. You know? And I think for them, they focused.

They spent most of their budget on these two monsters and maybe not enough on casting people that we would be like. Or they just assumed we wouldn't, you know, that that would be enough.

And I think they underestimated the audience in that sense of, like, you know, there has to be consequences for us to. To be invested in this.

Yeah, I agree. But, like, I'm still happy ultimately with what happens here in that, you know, they fight. That is part.

I do want to just see them fight and turn my brain off and watch them fight. That's fine. It doesn't have to be the whole film. I don't want to turn my brain off for the entire film, but for what's going on there, sure. Yeah.

I want to care about the characters and them dying. I should feel something when they die. But when I see Jason and Freddy fighting on each other, you know what I feel? Happy, Joyful.

Because I've wanted to see this. That isn't handled the best. No, but it's good enough.

Where I don't feel like this is a total failure of a film, but it's never going to enter my top 500 or whatever horror films I've ever watched.

And they save it pretty late for that fight. And it's not very long. Like, it's a. It's fairly brief because I don't think they fight up until the very end, right from what I remember.

Yes, I want to say that's right, because it's more like Freddy getting frustrated and then him fighting against the kids more. And Jason just being the relentless, sociopathic monster that he is, just chopping and slicing as he does best.

And then eventually they fight when they.

Bring in the somehow knock out Jason with sedatives. Even though Jason is a ghost.

Well, he's more the idea of the classical revenant in that he came back to life. It's a zombie who doesn't go after brains, who probably has some purpose in life that once in the classical English mythology would be.

Once they fulfill that purpose, they're going to pass along for good. But we got money to make, so Jason can't do that.

No. Yeah, I think he's. That's fair. I think he's answer like he's got a body. Like they've, they've. Yeah, Freddy's brought him back as a body but he.

So he can apparently get knocked out unconscious. But I, I think that yeah, he'll always, he'll always come back. I mean that because he's, he is a ghosty in that sense.

But I mean, yeah, I think it was like I watched it and I left and I was thoroughly entertained. Like. But I will say I'm a fan. Like my husband is Star wars guy.

Just, you know, Disney could take a poop on a platter and put a Star wars flag in it and hand it to him and he would say, yes, I can't wait to consume. That sounds gross, but I can't wait to have this.

It's a fitting analogy.

It's. It's a. Yeah. And I needed a different one. But I do think that that's me with horror stuff is like I, I will go.

Unless it falls in those categories we discussed earlier. I'm gonna consume the ever living heck out of it. So like. And I'm probably gonna enjoy myself. So I think they're really playing into that group.

We're like the Star wars folk. But. But for scary.

Yeah. I mean to an extent I'm kind of both.

I'm not big on a sequel trilogy, but that's on separate issue and people have heard me complain about that for a while. So I'm not going to bore them again. Yeah, they knew people were going to be in the seats. Just premise alone.

No trailer was ever going to convince them they knew it existed. Therefore they were going to be there.

So I think there's a bit of laziness that came with that as far as script writing and everything and a desire to make money off the, you know, off the beat and rather than waiting a couple years. Now we know we have a tight script and a tight group of actors to work around this. But you know what? This is what they chose to release.

This is what we have. There hasn't been a second one made. This is what we have.

And I want to go see it. Theater. I want to go see it in the theater. Much like the, the Star wars peeps is that you know what?

They probably didn't have to tighten a script or do extensive because I bet the same people who went to go see it are the same people that would have gone gone to see it otherwise, like now would it have hit like a cult classic if they'd done better with it maybe. But like this, the money at the box office I think would have stayed the same. Like because I think the people who are going. Were going.

The people like me were going to go like regardless. With low expectations to be fair. I mean Jason did go to space, so.

And you know what? You know why they call it Jason X?

I don't. Was it the millennium or something or.

Because it's 10 out of 10, baby. One of the greatest movies of all time. It's so stupid. I hate it.

I don't know that I've seen Jason X.

Okay, well we may have to do that later on then.

Does he. Does he become an MMA fighter? Like what's this? He's been to space and he's been to hell. He's really a. He's a world traveler.

He's a renaissance man.

He truly is.

He doesn't kid from New Jersey.

I love that they placed it as New Jersey because that was something I. I thought was funny because I don't. Was it placed in the previous films? Of course I haven't gone back to.

Watch them, but there were just when.

Sorry to interrupt you, but I'm fairly certain it's fairly early on In Friday the 13th they say it's in New Jersey at least by the time of Takes Manhattan because somehow there's a cruise ship that goes from Camp Crystal Lake to Manhattan where they spend 10min.

See, they were, they were like, you know what? We're getting him a passport. Like we need to get him out of Camp Crystal Lake.

And by passport I mean being able to leave the campgrounds and he really got to go.

Yeah. Is that world traveler renaissance man Jason Voorhees? You can't say that about Freddy.

What's the one, what's the poster that had the snake coming through the mask? Was that Freddy Goes to Hell or was that X? I can't remember.

I want to say that was hell. I can't remember off the top of my head.

I mean there. Here's the thing, if you're buy into the genre, they are like delightfully entertaining films. And I think that's the thing is like honestly it's.

They are how I viewed Alien prior to Ridley Scott like make doing the prequels and now Alien Earth which is just taking it in a totally different direction which I think we're doing in Alien Earth thing at some stage.

O.

But yeah, I think it, it's taking that franchise in a more like. I would almost say classical sci fi realm. Like. Like the Star wars thing. It's trying to make it sort of more intellectual and, and have a history.

Whereas, like, I don't think that that really exists for, at least for Jason. I think they tried it with Friday the 13th, but yeah, it's.

It, it's a different film. It's a very fun film. Like I said, I say 10 out of 10. Not ironically. I do believe it's a 10 out of 10 film.

Not for the reasons they want it to be, but that's when we talk about that later on, since we did bring it up earlier, because it kind of answered some of the other ones I had.

So in your synopsis, you mentioned the idea of how they repressed knowledge of Freddie was to kind of like put people under in this state of not being able to dream and making sure only a, a finite amount of people knew who Freddie was in order to prevent him from like feeding off of them. So, like, is this a good strategy of well intentioned extremism or naive optimism? Where do you kind of fall into this?

Oh, like the moral dilemma of sedating people so they don't, they don't dream. Well, they sort of kidnapped them, didn't they? I mean, in that I. Have you watched any of American Horror Story, the Asylum season, which.

That was early on, right? I want to say yes.

Yeah. Where she sort of tries to infiltrate the asylum and as a reporter to like talk.

Nelly Bly. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

And. But then they won't let her out and they do like terrible things to her.

I mean, I, I have ever since then I've had this fear and my fears watching horror are very strange.

But a fear that I have is that I'm going to go away to something like that and I'm going to tell everyone I'm not crazy and that they're going to say you're crazy and then just like lobotomize the heck out of me. And like there's something about pleading a case and saying I'm not crazy.

So I think not being believed.

Not being believed. And so clearly these people in this institution, you know, I'm telling you, like there was. But how do you explain that?

And I think that, like, how do you explain that there was a guy with knives on his fingers that came and like kill people. People be like, oh, okay, cool.

So I think there's a real idea here of how we listen to people and like how we deal with now, now their intentions for overreach. Clearly. I mean, you can't just like when someone's like stirring stuff up or protesting. I mean, hello, the frog in Portland.

You can't just, you know, take them out and say like, you know, sweep it under the carpet. So I think that their intentions were bad. Like, I don't think that it was the way to go about it.

Like, it was, instead of like facing your problem head on, it was essentially saying, you know, we're just gonna sweep you under the carpet. We're gonna put you in this asylum and no one's gonna believe you because you're talking about knife finger guy.

And that's a one way ticket to never getting out. And then we're just going to sedate you forever. Now I'm. I am someone who is a strong advocate of mental health care in all of its forms.

So one of the things that I will say I was pro in this film is giving people that medicine. Like, instead of taking them off to the asylum, maybe just like, let them have the medicine. This is maybe my universal health care bed.

I did live in Scotland. Just let the whole of Elm street have access to the medicine. Make it a part of your daily life. Like, I have dreams. I do remember my dreams.

I wish 80% of the time I did it. So if you were like, hey girl, you'll still get that REM sleep and you don't have to worry about that anymore. I'd be like, sign me up.

Okay, so the ethics, in summary, the ethics of taking someone and putting them away forever and not listening to them is, to me, was not the answer.

I think understanding that this is the way to keep him away in a way that didn't involve that via the medicine is probably a more ethical way, in my opinion.

Yeah, I'm with you. I would define this as not causing a greater good, but devil's advocate to put myself in their position.

For the sake of argument, you are dealing with a being that by his very nature, if you mention him to other people, you've infected someone else with the knowledge. So how do you stop that from spreading? Especially when you get cases of people dying in their sleep in unnatural ways.

Well, you can only have a gag on the media for so long before that goes elsewhere and more people learn that kind of question. Why is it only here in Elm Street? Well, in this town, why is it only happening there?

So assuming they have tried literally everything else, which I don't think that they did, let me say that it makes a logical sense. Not the best logical sense, but it makes a logical sense of let's limit the number of people. Yes, this is a Very reprehensible thing.

Let's put them under where they can be asleep, get the full effects of it, but not trigger Freddy's ability to go into our minds. I get it. I'm not for it, but I get it.

Yeah. I mean, I. What you're saying, because you're right, the knowledge doesn't go away. It's just the. The vessel to which he accesses you.

You can prevent if you have this medicine. But. And then there's like little kids. Like, are they going to take the medicine? Like, are you going to make that?

Like, you know, there's a lot of regulation that would have to take place. But it does remind me of. Of had a PhD student in Scotland once that researched. They used to.

So it was giving me like, very much that vibe of like, this is the answer is just to make sure we. We don't. We don't kill them because it's not genocidal, but it's like we're gonna like, make sure it seem like they never existed. And.

But you're quite right. The practical part of me says, what are the other options? You know, like, because at one stage you had like a dad lying to his daughter about his.

The mom's murderer because it was actually Freddie that did it. And it's like, so these are the extremes these people are doing to like, not talk about it. So.

But that's what makes Freddie so tricky is like, he's a tricky villain in that sense. Like, they had to send Jason to space to get his ass off the ground and out of Camp Crystal Lake. Like, he's, you know, they had to make him scared.

Freddie is so squirmy. Like you, you know, he's. He's thinking, he's thinking through it and like, so I don't know. You're right. I don't know.

You could solve the sleep problem or you can solve the memory problem. Like, and in that sense, I guess they did both. But, you know, it's. It's sort of the, the ethical argument.

The utilitarian is the, you know, the greatest good for the greatest number is even if it's really bad, you know.

Yeah.

Is. Is. Is that what they did? Like the train track thing? You've got four people or two People, which way do you go?

And we don't know what else they attempted because it doesn't really choose to focus on that. I don't think. I don't think they cared about it as much as we do right now.

More in depth in this movie than they did in the scriptwriter's room, to be fair.

But assuming that they had done literally everything else, I get that this is where they ended up at. I'm still not big on it, but I. Once again, I get it. Yeah. And I.

You're right. I don't. I. I don't know what the answer about the memory thing would be, like, how you would prevent people from. From.

Although, you know, there's certain things that you and I don't say or talk about that we were taught as young people not to. They could maybe, like, there's certain words we don't say as a rule.

And I think maybe you could really ingrain in the children that this was one of those words. But you're right. I don't know if that's gonna work.

Yeah. I mean, because essentially it's a super spreader event. If you have a situation like that, don't say this. Well, now they know the name.

So even if they're not supposed to say it, they know the name. And they may know a little history about it. So does that. Is it a way of suppressing it? Would that work? Or you want to risk that? Like, who knows?

Once again, they don't care. But what fans, like the little kids have the nursery rhyme. Yeah.

They learn it as a nursery rhyme. Freddy's gonna get you. It's like, okay, cool. So much.

Yeah.

Nipping that in the bud.

All right, it's time to wrap. Wrap the sucker up. Rating and Reviewing out of 10. What do you think? Freddy versus Jason.

Oh, for me, as a fan, I would say a solid like seven. Six. Okay. Yeah, I've watched it again, and I wouldn't feel sad about it.

Yeah. I'm going five. Five. And that's not to say this is a terrible, reprehensible movie. Like, five is, like, kind of the middle of the road for me.

Like, there's nothing offensive in it that I'd never consider watching it again if it. You threw it on a screen. Yeah, I'd watch the movie again, but there's a lot of potential. It has a lot of questions.

It could have considered that it didn't because of rushing things and getting things done for Hollywood reasons that just don't work for me at the end I have fun with this movie. It could be better. I want better for it.

I want better. I want better for my babies. Jason and Freddie. They deserve more justice for. Hashtag justice for Freddie and Jason.

All right, so you've answered this question before, so we'll just open with the Wide world here. What would you design if you were in charge of making Halloween treats for the drive in? Could be related to this movie. Could be in general.

What do you think, Leah?

I did look at this and I thought the thing that I love most at Halloween in terms of a treat is a caramel apple. But I hate everything it does to my teeth because they are difficult in general.

And they made the, like, lollipops still problematic for someone who has any kind of, like, cavity coverings. So what I would want to do is to somehow capture.

And I was thinking this because my husband watches a lot of like, baking shows and know that I don't do that.

But I was thinking, like, maybe do like a bag, like a popcorn bag, chop up apples and then like pour like some caramel, like sprinkles over it so it's not quite so, like intense or. Or maybe, you know, and then have yourself a little caramel apple bag. And this has probably already been done.

I mean, nothing's new under the sun.

Nothing new is under the sun, but that would be my drive and treat and I would just eat the heck out of that.

There you go. I went more thinking of this film in particular, like if we were doing promotional items for it.

I want to go either a licorice or cowtail gauntlet for Freddy. You can, you can have it, eat it off of there. And then I don't know, maybe like a chocolate machete for Jason or chocolate hockey mask.

Yeah, something like that.

You do like a hockey mask, like, bowl.

Yeah. So we had a lot of fun with this one. We love doing our drive ins. So, guys, thank you for all that you do.

Please, if you get a chance, leave a five star review on your podcasting platform of choice. Helps with the ratings there, help us to find more people to spread the lovely message of systematic ecology.

If you want to know everything that we're doing, you can head over to Fourth Wall. You can become a member there, see where all our merchandise is too. You can also suggest future episode topic ideas to us.

We love hearing you guys suggestions and doing them. You know, if we have someone who knows the show or the game or whatever you have, we'd love to talk about it. We'd love to know what you guys want?

I'd like to shout out some supporters real quick. Say thank you to Ethan over Cash Austin, Amber Riley and Jonathan Augustine. You guys are the best. But remember, we are all the chosen people.

A geekdom of priests.