Andy Walsh and Leah Robinson dive into the politics swirling around World Cup football / soccer fandom, shedding light on the intersection of sports, politics, and faith. They kick things off by spotlighting some notorious political actors, notably the dynamic duo of Trump and FIFA's Infantino, whose antics have stirred the pot during the tournament. As they navigate through the raucous atmosphere of the games, they share stories of camaraderie and joy among fans, while also addressing the less savory aspects—like the implications of political intervention in officiating decisions. Listeners are treated to a mix of insightful commentary and personal anecdotes, as Andy and Leah explore how these global events serve as a microcosm of broader societal issues. Tune in for a lively discussion that balances the thrill of the game with the complexities of contemporary politics!

A deep dive into the intersection of politics and the beautiful game, this episode of Systematic Geekology is packed with insights and banter from hosts Andy Walsh and Leah Robinson. They welcome the Reverend Dr. Leah Robinson to discuss the politics surrounding the World Cup, a tournament that transcends mere sports and delves into issues of identity, nationalism, and international relations. As they navigate the highs and lows of World Cup fandom, the conversation pivots on figures like FIFA's Gianni Infantino and former President Donald Trump, who have made significant impacts on the narrative of this global event. Their antics have raised eyebrows, leading to discussions about what constitutes a 'bad actor' in politics, especially when it comes to sports. With a mix of humor and critical analysis, Walsh and Robinson highlight how political figures can disrupt the purity of sportsmanship and the integrity of the games. They also share personal anecdotes about their own experiences with World Cup fandom, painting a picture of a world where sports can unite—or divide—us in unexpected ways.

Takeaways:

• The politics surrounding the World Cup reveal stark intersections between sports, faith, and global governance that can't be ignored.
• Andy and Leah dive into the complexities of political actors like Trump and Infantino, highlighting their controversial roles in the World Cup narrative.
• A lively discussion on how sports fandom can serve as a temporary escape from political turmoil, even if just for the duration of the games.
• The podcast emphasizes the importance of maintaining a balanced view on political issues within sports, rather than descending into partisan tribalism.
• Listeners are reminded that while the World Cup is a celebration of global unity, it is also rife with ethical dilemmas and political controversies.
• The episode portrays the World Cup as a microcosm of global politics, where not just the games, but the actions of leaders, shape the experience of fans.

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After video review, Will Rose was offsides in episodes eight, and the Systematic Ecology podcast is disallowed. Welcome to a primarily political episode of Systematic Ecology on the politics of World cup football or soccer fandom. Welcome, everyone.

And a special welcome to the Reverend Dr. Lee Robinson, who is here to talk World cup with us. How are you doing today?

I'm doing great. Yeah. I'm sad it's ending. I'm happy it happened.

Yeah. And I also feel a little bit.

We are recording this as the France Morocco game kicks off, so unfortunately, we're taking one for the team to record this podcast for you, our dear listeners.

I call France 2 1.

Fair enough. I. I'll. I'll say 3 to 1 France just to be different.

Oh, Mbappe fan over here. Sure, sure.

So, to start off these episodes, we ask everybody to identify a. A bad actor in politics. Don't worry, listeners.

If this is your new first politically oriented, primarily political episode, there will be a balance to this at the end. But who do you have as your bad political actor?

Yeah, I mean, I said this before we got on. I was like, well, it's going to be a joint villain. It's actually Trump and Infantino.

So the two people, for those who don't know, that's the FIFA, the head of FIFA. And if we're World cup doing World cup today, those two have been quite the villain duo in the World cup world this. This past week. And I don't even.

It's. It's funny because you could say, like, it's politically charged, but this one's actually sports charged.

It's, you know, Trump went to overturn a red card and called up his.

His pal head of FIFA, and it's kind of thrown things a little bit into chaos because while we in no ways thought FIFA was, you know, completely neutral by any means, I mean, we can see that very clearly. We certainly haven't had political figures interfere with the games, and that was kind of one of the nice. Well, that we knew of.

I should say that was part of the nice bit of it, or one of the nice bits. But he made it quite clear that that happened, and I think he thought we'd be happy about it.

Yeah, I think. I think the key difference there is not so much that it happened as that he doesn't have the common decency to act like it needs to be a secret.

Right. As soon as the words came out of my mouth where I was like, no political figures have interfered. Of course they have. Like, we live. That's ridiculous.

To say out loud. But yeah, he just let everybody know and it was like, can you don't. Sometimes your inside thoughts can stay on the inside friend indeed.

Well, you know, I'm kind of stuck in a public health rut at the moment because my World cup fandom has also coincided with my job. I've been on. We've been prepping for this event for over a year. I say we.

My part has been very small, but mostly our customers for the past year have been prepping for the public health side of this event.

And so my brain went to folks like RFK Jr. Because we're talking about measles cases and measles outbreaks in the Philadelphia area related, at least coinciding temporarily with the World cup event.

Whether or not it has spread through fan events and so forth is unclear, but definitely that was a concern because there were active measles cases in the area at the same time. And so our disinterest in proven technologies to control measles and other things has me feeling less than thrilled about that side of things.

I think the theme of both of ours is if it's not broke, don't fix it. If it's working, just let it just be quiet.

Fair enough.

Fine.

Let's let the world pretend that world leaders don't interfere in the World cup and let's just not get measles like we've been able to do it in the past. Let's keep on.

Very good. Yes, we've done it before. We can do it again. So we've already kind of started to get into the meat of things.

But let's rewind a little bit and remind folks that they can get a fabulous T shirt, the primarily political special T shirt for the Systematic Ecology podcast as part of this series that is available from our Fourth Wall site. There will be a link in the show notes the show description.

However you're listening to and or watching this, there will be a link somewhere associated with it that will take you there. You can get this snazzy shirt for yourself.

You can also, while you're there, sign up to become a supporting member and get a shout out like James Barrett, who we are thanking today for his financial contributions to making this podcast possible. Mostly like hosting things and technology and things. It's not putting money in our pockets. At least I'm not see any of that money.

I assume you were not either. No, it's not going to.

No.

Not.

Not no. How many different ways can you say no?

It is going to the infrastructure that makes all this possible. So if you would like to be named and thanked in the same way as James Barrett, you can sign up there, become a member. You get other kind of perks.

Like there's a members only channel on the Discord, there's bonus episodes, bonus content, all that good stuff. You can also just make a one time gift if that's more your speed.

Or you can buy the merch, or you can just listen whatever is the appropriate speed for you. Just like there are many ways to engage in soccer fandom, football fandom, there are many ways to become a fan of systematic ecology.

Again, just as a reminder, this is the primarily political series, in particular Systematic Ecology. We're discussing an intersection of faith, fandoms and politics.

Just wanted to normalize discussing policies and not so much the partisan tribalism, but not my team versus your team, but what's a good idea versus a bad idea, what's fixed and what's broken and needs to be fixed, all those kinds of things.

So you can find a playlist, if that sounds of interest to you, you can find a playlist again in that same place for all the other episodes in this series. All right, so that's enough business. Let's get into the main event. So we're going to be talking about World cup soccer.

And before we get too far into the weeds of what's been going on behind the scenes or in front of the scenes or what quiet parts have been said out loud. You have been on a World cup journey that I think the folks that want to hear about. If nothing else.

Let's get your stories out there because I want to hear what you've been up to too.

I was there for 11 years and there's really no getting away from it once.

And, and one of the things you, I think that's very important for especially American listeners to realize, everyone else will already know this is that the World cup is a huge, huge event. Like the Olympics. Don't have anything on the World cup, like in terms of a global sports phenomenon.

And I think a lot of people in the US don't realize that. So I am married to a Scottish man. I did get my, I picked up a PhD and a husband is the joke.

The PhD was first, but the husband was second and he's Scottish.

And it was funny because we were sitting around and he was like, you know, it'd be kind of cool to go to Boston for that first World cup game, because for reference, Scotland has not been in the World cup since 98. So it's been a very long time. They're a very small country, and so getting in the World cup is, is a big deal.

And I said, you know, it's going to be really expensive. I checked out the prices. Like, this is a dude that doesn't ask for very much. And so I was like, let's look. And he just kept hinting at it.

And I was like, okay, we have a friend, Taylor Thomas, a friend of the podcast Paul, Paul Tillich Scholar. And so he lives up in Boston. And so we contacted him and I was like, look, can we like, stay with you and maybe do this?

And so we shipped up to Boston and Taylor was very kind and accommodated us and took us around. And I want to say that as soon as we got off the plane from Charlotte to Boston, it was just kilts everywhere.

Like all of this sort of tick tock, slash, whatever reels, Instagram reels. All these other things that you saw that you're just like, that can't really be what it was. Like, that is exactly what it was like.

Like, I felt like a weirdo because I had on a USA jersey and like, everyone. It was like going to Scotland, like you were in Scotland. Basically.

We would walk the streets and like, you know, we dropped our stuff off and started walking around. And it was the day before the game, it was the Friday, and people were in such a good mood.

They were chanting, they were singing, like they were walking the streets, drinking. And I was like, oh, my gosh, they're all going to get arrested. And the Boston PD were just like, I don't see anything. It's fine.

Like, you know, and everyone was just so, so, so excited. And that whole feeling just lasted throughout the weekend. And no one was fighting, no one was, you know, screaming.

It was almost like politics didn't exist. If we talk about that, you know, no one talked about that. All we were talking about was soccer. And I saw a video that was like, the us needed this.

They didn't deserve it necessarily, but we needed it.

And I think in that moment I got it because I was like, you know, there's been a lot of stuff that we will have to take responsibility for later on when all of this is over in terms of stuff that's happened in the last six months to a year, but in this moment, we got to forget It. It was like taking some sort of, like, memory erasing pill. And all we could. All we did was laugh, joke, you know, watch soccer.

Like, our focus was on something else and, you know, drink with, like, 10,000 Scottish people. So. And Stuart was having the time. He wore a kilt. He was having the time of his life. So it was fantastic. Boston was great.

And the Scottish fans are the best. And I'm really sad they're gone. And I think Boston is also sad they're gone. They did. They helped. They helped.

They, like, gave a little band aid, you know.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah. It seems like, you know, just joy has been, you know, the theme of all these different games and events, you know, the. On the field and then.

Yeah. All the parties and celebrations and hangouts and whatnot and watch gatherings and all the different goings on have just been very, very joyful.

You know, obviously there is heartbreak when your team loses or gets eliminated. So it's maybe not all sunshine and lollipops, but even, you know, even that is not.

No. And it's not. And that's the thing is that you're allowed to, like, there were some Morocco fans there and. Or they played Haiti.

It was Haiti, and there were Haiti fans there. And you would. I was like, oh, it's gonna happen. And it's like, they were so upset. And, like, that's the thing is, like, you're allowed to be joy.

It isn't all rainbows and unicorns. Like, you can be happy, you can be sad.

Like, but it just took the focus away from, like, I think we've been getting inundated with just stuff that is not necessarily positive for our mental health. And, like, at least we can crush our dreams in this way. Seems a lot less risky for the world.

John Hodgman on his podcast talks about sports as sort of ritualized conflict and that it's a good way to sort of practice having a dispute or disagreement with somebody with very low stakes and being able to go out for pizza together afterwards or what have you.

I think that's the thing. Is that. What I was trying to say just then is that it's exactly that, Andy, is the. The stakes are lower.

Yeah.

You know, what is the worst that could happen? You know, of course, a whole nation is destroyed when their team loses the World Cup. But, like, you know, there's no. There's no bombs going off.

Hopefully it got Godspeed. But, like, in. At least in what we've seen, there's no, you know, mass, you know, genocide or anything like that. Again, Godspeed.

But, like, it just seems like the stakes are lower and we're able to feel things that are just a little less intense in that way.

Yeah.

And also, you know, they're like, you were talking about, you know, the Haiti and Scotland fans, and, you know, one thing that they have in common is that they've never won the World cup and they probably never will win the World Cup. Like, there are just so few teams that have and so few teams that ever seem like they're, they're capable that it's easy.

Unless you're in one of those fandoms. Right.

It's easy to kind of commiserate with, well, you know, maybe, you know, you won this one, but we all know we're all going home in the end, Right? Except for, you know, your Frances and your, your Spains and your Argentinas.

Yeah. And I think, you know, they were all saying when we were up in Boston that this, once you get out of the group stage, it gets a little less nice.

There's that, too. Yes.

We're all hugging now because these are teams that are probably not going to make, like, make it past this round. So we're all just, it's like a participation trophy. We're all just happy to be here.

Yeah, exactly. So there's plenty of political goings on around this World cup that we can get into.

But it occurred to me a different kind of political question about the World cup that maybe you can help me understand as somebody who lived in Scotland for a while. Scotland. You talk about Scotland as a small country. It is very confusing to Americans. Scotland is a country and not a country.

It is also part of the United Kingdom. How is it that Scotland participates in the World cup as a separate team, but, like, not, say, the Olympics? Can you give us any insight on that?

And if you can't, that's fine. That's not a fair question. And I didn't prep you for this. It just kind of popped into my head.

No, I mean, I, I, I taught Scottish and Irish history. Unfortunately, the, the World cup didn't come into it, but I. Basically, the United Kingdom.

The United Kingdom is made up of Wales, Scotland, England, and, and Northern Ireland. And the, all of those countries have very different relationships to the United Kingdom.

So Northern Ireland, because of the troubles and all of that, has its com, its own situation. Like, it is, it is, like, even on the passports it says the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

So it has its own thing, but, like, basically, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, which, again, we can go in. I wrote my PhD on Northern Ireland. That's why I'm saying it like that.

And England all participate separately in certain things, and then they come together. And other things, as you said, like the Olympics. I'm not entirely sure the history of.

Of that, but if I had to speculate, I would say that there's probably a lot less. How do I say this? And that's not going to set fire to the world. There's a lot of countries in the United Kingdom that don't necessarily.

There's people within that don't necessarily want to be a part of it. Sort of like the United States sometimes.

You know, California has often talked about sliding off into the ocean or something, so there's a little bit of that in the UK as well. And I think the World cup is so important to people that at some stage they've decided to say we're going to be. I think it's more important.

I think that's the answer. And I don't even know it, but I think that they hold it so dear in terms of patriotism that they're like, we are going to be Scotland.

We are not going to be the uk. And I honestly think the Olympics. The word we've used is stakes, and I think the stakes are lower, which sounds crazy because it's the Olympics.

Now, I'm sure there's some sort of historical document that's been signed and all of this kind of thing, but that would be. My guess is patriotism means that they get to have their own teams there because they would certainly do better if they put them together.

Right, yeah, that makes sense. And probably along with that is the infrastructure piece of just.

There is a separate Scottish Premier League, so there's just a pipeline for creating a national team, whereas there probably isn't separate infrastructure for skeleton and curling and, you know.

No, that's a great point. Yeah, I think so.

To field a set of athletes for all those different things. Not that you have to have an athlete in every event to compete in the Olympics, but.

Yeah, you know, that's something you were talking about, you know, Americans not understanding how big the World cup is.

You know, something that's kind of been boggling my mind a little bit, is as I paid a little bit more attention to international soccer and things, let's be honest, you know, we got into watching welcome to Wrexham with Ryan Reynolds and all, and, you know, learning a little bit more about such things and discovering that, like, London has eight or nine, you know, Premier League teams and then more teams at the other, you know, club levels as well. And so just like imagining New York City with nine baseball teams and going, okay, well, this is a very different sport.

What really highlighted that for me was all the discussion about, and this will bring it back to the current World cup, all the discussion about how Europeans were going to come to the United States and die a terrible death in road accidents because they were going to try to walk to our stadiums that are not built for that kind of thing. And there were all these signs.

Well, at least there was a sign in a hotel in northern New Jersey that made the rounds as if, you know, there may have been others, but this one got popular. But it's just a sign in the hotel lobby saying it is illegal for you to walk to what was called New Jersey or New York.

New Jersey Stadium, the MetLife Stadium.

Yeah. This is another FIFA thing, is they've taken off the branding.

So like I'm from Atlanta, I know that the stage stadium is called the Mercedes Benz Stadium, but they've covered up the Mercedes Benz because it's not a sponsor of FIFA and it's just, it's the Atlanta Stadium.

Right.

But I don't know if you saw the Levi's thing because they have that very distinct logo. They covered it up in the shape of the logo. So that to be funny, everybody knows it's Levi.

Yeah. And I think I heard that Gillette Stadium they just covered up with something that looked like shaving cream. So that again, it was shaving cream.

They put a shaving cream.

Yeah.

So there's been a lot of like quiet. Yes.

So, but also again, there's going to be a lot of stuff to look back on is that a lot of the reason people are walking is that they've jacked the prices to the public transportation. And even without that, the infrastructure was very. To get to the, the Boston. Boston Stadium, quote, unquote.

It was a two hour wait to get on the train to get out to the stadium, which is in Foxborough. It's not even in Boston. So it's, it was. I think there'll be a lot to, to look, to look back on in that.

And you talked about the English premier leagues. The more that my mind's going through, I do think it's because they have, the reason they have separate things is they have these premier leagues.

I am an Arsenal fan.

Well, congratulations.

Oh, thanks very much. It's, it's been, it's been a while since people have said that. And then my Husband's a Chelsea fan, so. Yeah. And those are both London teams. Right.

So that's just one city.

Yeah. So, you know, I just, you know, I think part of it is. Right, you talk about Foxborough, you know, the New York, New Jersey stadium, in.

In the Meadowlands, way outside of New York City. Right. Why. Why are they in those places? Well, part of it is because you need all that space to build a stadium that can hold 80,000 people.

And in the Premier League, you're talking about buildings that, from what I gather, more like 10, maybe 20,000 people. These are neighborhood stadiums that you walk to because that's your neighborhood team.

And yes, maybe these theaters are more walkable in general, or there's more of a culture of different things in general, but in particular, we're building these behemoth stadiums because we just. We have so few teams, relatively speaking, in any given city. And so it's not a neighborhood team. It is a.

It is a metropolitan area team that needs to service a much larger number of people.

And to go back to the. No, absolutely. And to go back to the stakes thing is that, you know, these. These clubs have been around for a very long time.

So these, These stadiums have been around for a long time. And I think that's the difference, too, is like, Atlanta's Mercedes Benz is in the middle of the city. So it is actually one of those weird things.

But Atlanta is a relatively newer city.

You know, you take cities like Boston, there's no place to put it, you know, like, in some ways you have these old cities where you have to add on, you know, and then in other ways, there are these stadiums that have been here for forever. And that's, I think, what's created a culture with these clubs. I mean, people in Europe loves soccer. This is something. Or football.

Football.

They love it. And, you know, it's. It's. It means everything.

And also in South America and also in Africa, there was more, the most, I think, Africans that have gotten to pass the group stage than ever before. There was like, I think there was like six or seven this time around, which is a huge number.

Yeah. Ghana, Senegal, Morocco, Egypt, Ivory coast, and everybody's darling, Kate Faraday. The smallest nation to advance.

And when they got. When they drew with Argentina, I was like, no. I mean, I, you know, it was heartbreak when I saw that. I was just like, really?

I'd rather him play us than Argentina.

Yeah. But they, I mean, they gave.

They held their own, though. They did.

I, you know, I texted my parents who. Who are not Soccer fans who are not, you know, you know, they watch the US Games or whatever, you know, they weren't that interest.

Like, you should turn on the last 10, 15 minutes of this game. They could go to penalty. This could be something that, you know, you will. That we will be.

If they had knocked down the champions and what I'm going to say is the goat, then that would. That would have been. They would have. It would have been his. Like, not even historical. It would be legendary.

Yeah, it's hard to think of a comparison to that.

I know I was going through. You could see I was going in my brain to try to figure out what it would be like. And I don't even know.

Like, I don't think, you know, because they're. Did you see them coming home as well? Like, when they flew back in and it looked just the way you thought it would look, that little island.

And all these people were so excited. Excited. Like they're heroes now. Like. As well they should be.

Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, let's.

Let's do exactly as the World cup has done and pivot hard from those good vibes and all the nice things we were talking about to some of the less nice things about this World cup, because there have been a few. Five killers.

And this made me laugh when you put the slide up when you were going throughout.

I was not the best about clicking. But yeah, so it all, you know, it all starts. You know, we can start. There are many places you can start. Right. And this is not the world.

First World cup and not the first World cup with controversies and dark clouds over them, but we'll stick to this one for sake of time and scope and what have you. But. Yeah, so, you know, kind of the nonsense really, you know, got started when we invented a new prize to give to the President just to show.

I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm being a bit. Is there. Is there a charitable way to describe this? Is there.

No.

Justifiable.

I wrote my PhD on peacebuilding in Northern Ireland. Ireland. And no, I don't think there is a charitable way to go about. To go about this. I mean, he got. He bought. He bought a prize for himself.

I don't know what the cost was, but. And the fact that it's in peace, you know, I mean, again, just objectively, we're at a. We're in a war, like, you know, like.

Yes, although as I think it was the. But it was somebody who pointed out that nobody has ended the same war more times. Surely that Merits some kind of.

I get on my phone and I'm like, are we in it again? Are we out?

Well, and the headline I saw this morning was that even the President who is supposed to be negotiating these things doesn't really know whether we're currently in a war or not. Which seems like an important fact to.

Know, you know, I think so.

And aside from the very disturbing message that gives to the American people and the rest of the world, I'm add which we're going to have to repair that allyship the rest of the world. The fact that someone would get a Peace Prize is for, for the words that you just said again, not even knowing if they are in a war or not.

Again, I've studied theories and methods of peace building. It's. It just doesn't like objectively doesn't fit within that.

If you think of some of these folks who are the great peacebuilders now, not all of them have done it morally, you know, angelic. You know, there's. Not all of them have done it in a way that would be morally acceptable. But I haven't seen this happen at all.

You know, it's a difference to get a Peace Prize for maybe, you know, the, you know, utilitarianism, you know, the greatest good for the greatest number. And maybe there was some shady stuff that happened along the way, but like, I'm not seeing anything that would merit this. But also, it's not real.

I mean, it's real now, but it wasn't real before.

Sure.

And you know, I suppose the charitable statement to make there is neither was the Nobel Peace Prize until, you know, Alfred Nobel, until it was, you know, made a lot of money selling weapons and bombs and other things and, you know, wanted to perhaps, you know, cleanse his legacy a little bit. And again, maybe that's not even the most charitable version for Alfred Nobel, but.

Everything has to start somewhere.

Well, it would be interesting, Andy, to see, and I don't know the answer to this, I maybe should, but I don't is who is the first Nobel Peace Prize winner? Do you know that?

I do. Not off the top of my head, I don't either.

But the thing with the FIFA prizes. Yes, absolutely. The charitable way to look is everything has to start somewhere. But this is, this is the start.

Yeah, it was an odd way, odd way to get going.

I mean. Yeah. So I don't, I, and I think too the relationship that Trump has with the Peace Prize, which is that it's been very.

The Nobel Peace Prize, as you mentioned, it's been very contentious. He has been asking for. For one, which I'm not sure that's how that works. But. But that's how it's happened. They have said no.

He has gotten peace prizes from other people, which the Nobel people have said that's also not how that works. You can't just take someone's prize.

And now it just feels like a kid that's like trying to get the toy on the playground, you know, and suddenly, you know, just like finds the rich kid, I guess, to make him one. I guess it's better than everyone else's and I think that's what's happened here.

Now, what they do with the second year will be interesting, as you said. Charitably. We'll see how that goes. I mean, if Vladimir Putin gets it year two.

Yeah. I don't even know. Is it an annual thing? Is it every four years thing?

Oh, I don't. Or is it a one off? Is there only one?

Will it go to the, you know, to someone associated with the host? So while you were. I did look up.

So there were two winners of the first Nobel Peace Prize, Henri Dunant and Federic Passy of Switzerland and France respectively, for humanitarian efforts and work on diplomacy and arbitration. So there you go.

Okay, well, you know, trying to clean up an image. That feels like the right way to do it.

Sure.

This feels like, you know, you got your pal of participation trophy. I guess. I don't know. I don't know. Their relationship is strange.

And I do think that out with, honestly, out with partisan politics, which at this stage it's starting to get a little ridiculous even to say that. But outside of that, if we're talking about the World cup, you know, this was strange to have that at the beginning.

Again, as you said, if it's just about giving it to the host country, then that's okay, I guess. I mean, that's FIFA's right to do whatever, you know, if we keep going along with it, then it's their right, I guess.

But it does sort of set a precedence that what is the relationship between the host country and how they interfere with the game? And I think that's going to be a question. Also a side note, I keep saying host country, there's three. The other two didn't get peace prizes.

That's a very good point.

Canada and Mexico. I'm pretty sure their presidents and premiers didn't get prizes, to my knowledge.

No, I don't believe they did. That's a good point. And it's Easy as people in the United States. I was just saying Americans.

But again, that's even a challenging word to use in this context because we were reminded at the super bowl among other times that everybody else considers themselves Americans. Who lives in north and South America. We just don't have a good word for that. Usians, Usaans.

We failed to come up with a word because we don't have to because we get what we want.

Nuance is not our strong point, but yes.

So this is the North American hosted World cup jointly with Canada and Mexico. But they seem to have avoided. They may not be getting prizes, but they've also avoided notoriety as well.

Trying to go through a little more, just kind of acknowledging some of the other things that have gone on here. We had issues with lots of people coming in.

I think the most high profile, specific individual was the Somali referee Omar Artan, who as best I could tell, was turned away and that nothing was resolved there or it was resolved in the sense that he, you know, had to leave. But, you know, no, no changes were made. Nobody called and. And got that suspension suspended.

It's almost like we're picking and choosing here. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that was a disgrace.

I think it should be said that the World cup typically, you know, wherever it resides, there's all kinds of. Of ethical issues that have gone along with. With hosting these events.

But I think we have to acknowledge very, you know, openly our own version of that. And I think this was one of at least one of the first things this. And people getting their.

What's it called the thing that you have to the entry form that you have. Well, it wasn't a V. Well, yeah, they. Those two.

But there was some like, form that the Europeans, I think people from like friendly, quote, unquote, friendly nations, I. E. White nations to us. I say that sarcastically, by the way. They fill out this form and then they don't have to get it.

Okay.

Basically. And so a lot of them were getting. The Scottish people were getting denied. They bought these tickets for like 800 and they couldn't get in.

This guy's worked, you know, his whole life to be this. I'm going.

I don't know his background, but I'm going to go ahead and say that with confidence that he's worked his whole life to go to this and to deny it based on. Did they have a reason for denying it or was it just the region he was.

I could have maybe done more research. The few news articles that I saw did not. Were not able to provide those details.

You know, basically saying that they were not provide, you know, the State Department or whomever would not provide those details and just kind of cited general national security concerns. But yes, you know, it makes it look like, you know, it was because he was from Somalia and not without, in the absence of providing more details.

That he wasn't white.

It's hard to.

Well, and I think too, they're doing a lot of stuff that, you know, I do history and politics and we should be paying it. And people say pay attention, pay attention. It's hard because we're getting inundated with stuff, stuff to pay attention to.

But I, it, it reminds me a lot of like what you just said of the Patriot act that, that, you know, we had during the Bush era, which is basically, it was this idea that it's national security, you know, we can do, we can do what we need to because it's national security. And it's like, well, you know, they do still have to be held accountable. Like, okay, he's from Somalia, but so what? He's a FIFA referee.

Like, I'm pretty sure his paperwork was probably done. Well, I'm assuming, you know, but then we just say, well, it's national security.

Right, Right.

It's a shame. It's a shame.

And you know, if, if, if we're going back a little bit and trying to be, you know, totally partisan. Right.

I think it's also fair to, you know, to say that the Obama administration didn't cover itself in glory and how it continued to use the Patriot act and things like that. And you know, the Obama Peace Prize was also a little bit of this is on vibes, maybe more than record at the time that it was given and so forth.

So, yeah, this is not a one person problem. This is not a one country problem. But these are the specifics of this particular World cup incident, correct?

Yeah, no, this is not to say that.

I mean, I think there's stuff that is being done in this administration that has gone far beyond any admin administration that I've studied in the US and that needs to be paid attention to because there are certain, you know, intense atrocities that are taking place that need to be acknowledged, especially in Iran.

But, you know, I do think that certainly the pattern, as you said, of stuff has occurred in past administrations and part of that is power and prestige and money. It's my little Karl Marx rant there for a minute.

Fair enough. So let's see. This is getting me a little bit more onto the field action. What actually happened at some of the games.

And this will always be every World cup, every sporting event, there will be questions raised about why was this officiating call made, why was that officiating call not made. But it is hard when it feels like it's favoring the favored countries and going against the smaller countries. This particular one was against Egypt.

That was kind of the highest, the most recent high profile one where an Egypt goal was disallowed because of a foul that happened way before now. My recollection there's a lot of like, well, this would never have been called without video reviewer. But I feel like I do.

I am aware that soccer does, or football does have this concept of continuing action and that, you know, there's a sequence, there's a chain of cause and effect and a foul earlier in that, in that chain of cause and effect can wipe things out.

Now maybe it's harder, you know, without video review to go all the, all that way back, but not sure this is entirely unprecedented, but it certainly was.

Deflating certainly raises all kinds of questions of, well then why didn't they review this about this goal or why didn't they look at that about that goal?

And I think that's probably the bigger issue is less any particular instance of things and more about the way that things can feel that they're being arbitrarily applied rather than consistently applied and thus allowing for the possibility for favoritism, corruption, bias, you know, any, any degree of, or whatever degree of that concept you feel is appropriate.

I'm in favor of. I'm. I mean, I'm going to get plaque for this, but I'm in favor of video reviews and reviews in general in sports. I mean, because calls, dude, get.

They're not always. This is all sprints. You know, I'm a, I'm a college football fiend. But I'm so glad that there is reviews in that.

You know, I think now it does stop the flow of play. And, and football is a.

This version of football is a sport that really thrives on not stopping and starting the way that my version of college football does. So I do, I do get the argument for that. Um, I mean, refs have been getting it wrong since forever. It just, it depends on.

I really do think that there is a system of trust that you have to have. Um, like I remember my dad screaming at, you know, those. He were big SEC fans, Georgia football. And he'd be like, well, it's just.

Cause they're big ten refs and they don't understand how the SEC plays.

You know, of course, I think that that's the same that we could apply here is how much do we trust the refs and I think how much of our, you know, trust do we have in them? Because we have to. You have to have a level of trust in the referees. And do we think that they are not being corrupted by outside sources?

You know, and in which case people make mistakes and people miss things. Is it possible for refs to not have bias? I don't think so. You're telling me those refs don't have a team that they prefer over another team?

I mean, does it affect their judgment? You know, that's another story too. That's a whole other sort of ethical question here.

Yeah.

And, you know, and that's probably why you have multiple people involved, so that any, you know, hopefully any one person's bias is balanced out by other perspectives.

But yeah, I think the biggest issue, I think I have been more enthusiastic about video review and technology reviews and so forth and automation of officiating in the past and kind of realizing, oh, now that we're implementing it, going, okay, maybe, I don't know, maybe it wasn't such a good idea or maybe we just need to implement it better. Because I think there are things like the balls and strikes now in baseball. We started to caught up calling. You can have an automated review of that.

Well, if we're doing that automatically, why don't we just do that for every pitch? Right. Because when you kind of arbitrarily pick this one we're going to double check and that one we're going to double check, but not most of them.

It's like, well, is that really the best way to make use of that technology? I think something like the var, when every goal gets reviewed. Okay, then every goal gets reviewed.

And so if you're kind of systematic about these are the points that we review about every goal before we decide that it's a goal or not, great. But if it's kind of. Well, we weren't sure about this one, so we decided to double check this one.

Yeah, you're always going to see things on a slow mo video replay when you have time to go over it again and again and again that you weren't going to see live. And I don't think that it necessarily needs to. The standard needs to be. We just need to replicate what the ref would. Would do in real time.

But the standard does need to be. We need to be consistent and systematic about how we how we apply these technologies so that. So that you don't. So that it builds trust. Right. So.

So then you don't have those room for those questions of, well, why was it used this way, not that way.

Yeah, I mean, I think in college football, the coaches have to ask for you. And I think. And there's a limited amount of that. So you've got to pick and choose what you. How you want to do that.

And I think that that's probably a good. To me, that feels like a good way to do it, is that it's not every single thing. And it's not arbitrary.

It's, you know, they have four challenges or three challenges, and, you know, that's it. When they're gone, they're gone. And so you got to really pick and choose when you're going to stop this game. And.

And they're the co. One of the things, too, I think, that the VAR does is it allows for the. For. And a lot of video review in all sports is it allows for kind of the other. The audience to be the referee in a way.

Now, I don't trust, like watching Scotland with my husband, and he's like, that's clearly not, you know, whatever. And I'm like, sir, you are not a reliable narrator. Yeah, I'm sorry.

But like, it does allow people who are not that way to be like, I'm not sure about that. Like, I can look at this.

I, you know, I like Argentina because I like Messi, but, like, I don't have a deep, strong feeling for either of these teams. And I'm looking at this going, you know, is it like, you know, So I think it allows for that, like, in a way is that you can.

It sets up more of a debate and it doesn't leave it on the refs so much. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know.

Well, and that ties into.

We've already talked a little bit about this and we're running long on time, so I don't want to get too much further into it, but, yeah, this was, I think, a good example of both everybody at home gets to be a referee. And also that things look different when you take still images and slow motion than it looks at full speed.

It looks like a karate kick in this.

Yeah, yeah. There was something similar in the NBA Finals. There's a rule about not when a shooter jumps up to take a shot, not standing in their landing zone.

And there was an incident where one player in the kind of still shots Again, it looked almost like a karate kick of, I'm going to come down and try to break your leg. But watching it happen in full speed, you kind of go, well, I'm not sure that he has that much.

Do you have that much control over where you are, where your limbs are going in that limited amount of space and when you're that big of a person and all?

Yeah, and I think. I don't think. I mean, for me, like, it didn't look like a. A red card at the time. And again, I'm biased, of course. We all are.

But, like, at the time, I don't. I don't think this would have been. I think there were two factors here.

One, it's the US of course, but the US doesn't have a very deep bench, as it were, on their team. And this is our own fault, which means that people get red cards. It's not great.

And it's not great when it's someone who's so important, like Baligan is. But it shouldn't have been the make or break of the US Team for this person to be. We should have had someone else that could have come on.

It's the World cup, like, you know, now, and refs get things wrong all the time. I think where it took a turn is, again, we can't just have political leaders calling in favors to get things overturned.

Yeah, I can kind of see the notion of, hey, we're one of the host countries, we should get some. Maybe the benefit of the doubt, maybe not necessarily special treatment, but we should maybe get things to break in our favor when it's a.

When it's uncertain because, you know, we're. We're going to great expense to. To put on a big party for the world. And so, you know, you get. You get maybe a break or two, but.

Yeah, but they didn't even overturn the red card, Andy. What they did is they just put him on.

Right. They suspended the suspension.

They suspended the suspension. So it's not even that, like, they said it. They're not even taking the red card away.

They're just saying, he'll serve it some other time.

That's right. We'll just do. And that in itself is, I think, a big issue people had. I mean, out with everything else is they're not even saying it's not a red card.

They're saying that the. The rules of the red card did don't apply to this guy this time.

And.

And so then you're breaking up the whole game. That's the whole.

Yeah.

Rule.

Yeah. And to your point, you know, that. That we should have more players. You know, it was.

It was kind of interesting to see Belgium situation, you know, three.

Three players of at least similar, you know, caliber, you know, as a. Nominally, as a tactical move and, you know, it worked out for them, but, yeah, they clearly had a much deeper team.

Yeah. And Baligan didn't actually even do that, I mean, that much in the game. I mean, and that's. Well, not a lot of.

Didn't seem like a lot of people were doing that much in the game, but he certainly didn't. He wasn't a make or break for that. That game. And he went up to the Belgian.

I don't know if you saw this, but he went up to the Belgian coach afterwards, and by all accounts, the Belgian coach came out afterwards and said that he apologized. And the Belgian coach said, look, this is not your fault.

And I think that's something we have to remember is these are players who've spent their whole life trying to get to this point. This has been their entire. And this may be the only one that they ever go to. And this isn't on them. Like, they didn't ask for that.

And that's what the Belgian coach said. He said, you know, Balcon didn't ask for.

I mean, he may have and we don't know, but, like, it seems like he didn't based on the way that he's reacting.

Yeah. And he certainly, you know, the way he reacted even when.

When the red card was issued, it was not like, oh, you know, this is an outrage, or what was me. He seemed very measured about. Look, this is. This is how things go sometimes, and you gotta move on.

Well, we always. We also have the women, so.

Yeah.

Because someone made. I saw a video where someone was like, the USA is just never gonna win a World cup except for the.

Four that we won or whatever it is.

Right. One of the players goes, well, actually, you've already won four. It's just the women's, you know, and. Hello.

So maybe that helps us to pivot to a little bit more of some. Some positive vibes. Again. I'm just reminding us that, you know, while there.

There all this political machinations that can go on, it also, you know, can.

These kind of sporting events can be a great opportunity to bring world's cultures together, people of the world together, and just share, you know, share our common enthusiasms, but also our distinctives. Right. Our Viking rowing and our traffic cones on statues and all these great Things.

My husband's a Red Sox fan now because the Red Sox had a Scottish night. He's got the jersey and everything. It's, you know, like he doesn't care about baseball at all. But, you know, I think it was one of those things is.

I do think that a lot of the videos that show people coming together, it was very heartwarming. And I think we need to give ourselves space to allow for that.

And I think because of all the stuff that's going on in the background and all the noise, do see the positive things that are happening. You know, of course, there's the people who are going to BUC EE's for the first time or having barbecue, and that's fun. Yeah.

But there's also, you know, I saw it firsthand, and it was real.

Like, you know, there was, you know, I will put a picture that hopefully maybe we could put up on the systematic geekology of Stuart finding somehow from every nation that they played in the group stage, so Haiti, Morocco and Brazil. He's got a picture with each of those fans where they're all hugging and in his kilt and Scottish top.

And I think that there is something in that, you know, is that it does bring the world together. And people are so passionate, and that passion comes through, but it comes through in a positive way, which I think it.

It doesn't always do in sports. And it, you know, it's. It's been great.

And while now my husband is Abe, which is anybody but England, so he's definitely going to be cheering on those Norwegians down there, but, you know, it's still in fun, you know, and I think that it's a great event and I'm glad we got to do it, and I think we needed it.

Yeah. Well, I think that is a great note to end on.

So we'll wrap up our soccer conversation there, and we'll use that as an opportunity to talk about now, our positive political actor that we want to lift up as well. Do you have somebody in mind that you'd like to throw in here?

I do, yeah. Raphael Warnock and John Ossoff.

I'm from Georgia, so Ossoff and Warnock are two of our representatives at the minute, and Warnock is the minister at Martin Luther King's former church, and Ossoff is the first Jewish senator that we've had. So they're the senators for their end. They're just doing really great work, and they won in sort of strange elections. They're both Democrats.

Like, it's Georgia I've lived in Georgia most of my life. It's not a common thing. Warnock is African American. You know, it's, there's.

They're an unlikely duo, but they're really, they're really doing some good stuff and I appreciate them. So that's my good. Political actors of the day.

Cool. I think going with the sports vibes, Mayor Mondame of New York City has been on my mind a bit because I am a Knicks fan.

And it was exciting to watch the Knicks win the NBA Finals after many, many years.

And it was exciting to see the mayor kind of being part of this unifying effort again, kind of highlighting the way that sports can bring people together. Unifying the city of New York, unifying Knicks fans around the country and around the world. He's still a relatively new politician. Not necessarily.

I'm endorsing every policy decision that he's made so far and will make in the future.

But I do think he definitely understands that spirit of how to build consensus, build enthusiasm around things and bring people together as opposed to trying to pit people against each other. And I hope that that serves the city of New York well going forward.

Yeah, it was nothing greater than seeing, and I don't know her name, I apologize now what wo I think. But anyway, was that hanging out with the Scots. The mayor of Boston was hanging out with the Scottish people and it was, it was fantastic.

I think the reps for the cities who have hosted have been really great.

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