Edmund's missteps in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" spark a fascinating discussion about whether his actions nudged Aslan into a different direction. In this laid-back Easter special of Systematic Geekology, host Joshua Noel welcomes back former hosts Joe Dea and Brandon Knight for a spirited chat about Narnia. They dive into the complexities of character motivations, particularly how Edmund's betrayal and eventual redemption might have influenced the great lion himself. The trio explores deeper themes of sin, responsibility, and the mystical magic of the Narnian world, all while throwing in some clever banter and cheeky humor. Buckle up as they unravel the intertwining destinies of characters and question whether Aslan's sacrifice was merely a reaction to Edmund or part of a grander design. A deep dive into the Chronicles of Narnia offers a fascinating exploration of themes like redemption, sacrifice, and the allegorical nuances embedded within C.S. Lewis's writing. The episode kicks off with a discussion on the character of Aslan and whether his actions are influenced by Edmund's mistakes.

The hosts—Joshua, Joe, and Brandon—debate how the narrative intertwines Christian theology with fantasy, raising questions about the nature of sin and divine response. As they reflect on the Easter theme, they consider whether Aslan's sacrifice is a reaction to Edmund's betrayal or if it was part of a grander design. Joe passionately argues for the idea of a more direct relationship between characters and their choices, while Brandon offers a more nuanced view about the complex interdependence of Aslan and the Pevensies. The conversation flows effortlessly between humor and serious theological debate, balancing clever banter with profound insights, revealing how each character's journey embodies larger truths about faith and redemption. They touch on various atonement theories, discussing how these frameworks apply to the beloved narrative and its implications for understanding God’s nature—whether as unchanging or relational. By the end, the episode not only entertains but also challenges listeners to rethink their perspectives on these timeless stories and their deeper meanings in our lives.

Takeaways:

1. In this Easter special, the hosts dissect the character of Edmund from Narnia, exploring how his choices might have influenced Aslan's actions and the overarching narrative.
2. The discussion delves into deeper theological implications, questioning whether God or Aslan reacts to human actions or if their wills are predetermined in a grand cosmic design.
3. The podcast emphasizes the importance of understanding the characters' motivations, suggesting that Edmund's selfishness and eventual redemption play a crucial role in the story's moral lessons.
4. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on the parallels between the characters in Narnia and their own lives, particularly in terms of forgiveness and the impact of personal choices.
5. The hosts cleverly navigate the complexities of atonement theories, comparing the sacrificial aspects of Aslan's story with various interpretations of Christian theology.
6. In a humorous twist, the conversation includes light banter about Turkish Delight, linking it back to Edmund's choices, illustrating how even the most trivial desires can lead to significant consequences.

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Be sure to check out our merch, find extra content, and become an official member of Systematic Geekology on our website:

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Check out other episodes in this ear's theme of "The Faces Behind Us":

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/dd903597-98be-49ed-998c-5cdaf73b6af4

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Listen to our first ever annual theme where we discussed various works by CS Lewis:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/6ee3ab6b-3d27-4931-bf1e-61dda8542be3

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Check out other episodes with Joshua:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/642da9db-496a-40f5-b212-7013d1e211e0

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Check out other episodes with guests like Joe and Brandon:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/0d46051e-3772-49ec-9e2c-8739c9b74cde

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Hear more of Brandon on Kung Fu Pizza Party and My Seminary Life:

https://kung-fu-pizza-party.captivate.fm/listen

https://my-seminary-life.captivate.fm/listen

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Listen to more from Joe on KFM Broadcasting:

https://www.kfmbroadcasting.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

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Did Edmund's mistake change Aslan? And do our sins change God? Today special Easter bonus episode of Systematic Geekology. We're going to be discussing that.

We're going to be discussing Aslan. We're going to talk about Easter. We're going to talk about whether or not God changes. And does that apply to Aslan and Narnia?

We'll see how far the metaphor goes. I, of course, am Joshua Nolan. I'm here with two wonderful guest, former host, some of the people who helped kick our show off from the beginning.

Who else to have a special Easter bonus with. And the one and only Joe Day of any podcast that you're not listening to right now. He's the host of I think, I think that's how it works.

We got shell shocked. We got a new comic book, one that I know you're going to want to shout out here on systematic ecology.

And then you have your own network, the Happy Day Ministries, that still go by that name, right?

Oh, it's KFM Media.

Okay. I was just thinking like something about that sounded wrong. Kfm.

Okay, so it's KFM Media and that's just your network, similar to how we have the Anazole podcast network. Is there anything you want to say about that or your comic Book One before I introduce our other guest?

Yeah, I mean it's a one stop shop for teaching fandom, Compelling writing, the whole nine yards. If you're a fan of the sort of thing that you get over here at Amazon, I think you're, you'll, you'll find something that you appreciate over a kfm.

Yeah, yeah, especially I feel like you guys lean more into the practical aspects and I'm like, who needs to be practical?

Yep.

Yeah, I make all kinds of great decisions. And then your new comic book one, what was the name of that?

Understanding Comics.

So the whole idea is that comics can be a big daunting thing, especially now when you also add on the MCU having a million movies under its belt and all of that. There's a lot of people who are interested in the medium but have absolutely no idea where to start.

So the whole thing is having conversations to hopefully better understand comics.

Nice, nice. Yeah, I think a lot of our listeners will probably appreciate that. So hopefully I'll get a link, put it below and they could check that out.

Of course, I mentioned we have another guest.

I'm here with the one and only sensei and pastor and good friend and, and one of the founders of Systematic Ecology, Brandon Knight, host of Kung Fu Pizza Party and My Seminary Life, both on Anazzow Podcast Network. Brandon, you want to talk any about your shows, introduce yourself or you think they know who you are and get over it?

I think they know who I am, but in case not, what Josh said was very accurate.

I have two shows here on Anazzow, My Seminary Life, which chronicled my journey through finishing up my master's degree, that was going on during the early days of systematic ecology as well, and now is more of a this is what I'm studying and you get to hear about it now, kind of personal reflection on the things I'm watching. Reading all that.

Kung Fu Pizza Party promises to deliver high flying action in 30 minutes or less and serve up some wisdom one slice at a time, basically through reviewing Kung Fu Ninja and Samurai films and other martial art media as well.

Yeah, yeah. Nice. Nice. Yeah. And you guys know we do always like to start with what we're geeking out on.

So I'm going to put all their links down below in the description as well as links to some of the episodes they used to do. So if you want to hear some of the earlier episodes with us three geeking out together, you can find them down below.

For now, what I've been geeking out on actually just finished. Again, I've watched the show so many times, Adventure Time.

But it was an interesting caveat because previously my first time watching it, weirdly enough, my first time watching it was because of a girl. And every time since that I've watched it all the way through, it's because it's like my comfort show.

So I'll get sick and I'm like, I'm gonna be taking a lot of NyQuil and when I'm awake, this show will be on the TV.

Dude, watching Adventure Time on NyQuil.

Yeah, yeah, it's wild.

But this time my wife wanted to actually see the full story because, like, you know, it has like pretty cool story arc near the end and we watched it intentionally without nyquil and just to see what the story was. And man, it's just. It's incredible. The whole series is incredible. I love it. So that's what I've been geeking out on.

I'm getting into some of the comic books and other stuff around the series too, so it's been fun. Brandon, what have you been geeking out on? Well, here.

What should I talk about? I. After years of fighting it off, I finally decided to give King of the Hill a try. I never, I never cared for the animation.

I don't like Beavis and Butthead. And that's, you know, another. The other Mike Judge program. And finally, the algorithm won me over. I started seeing more clips online.

It was about the time when Hulu's newest revamp of the show was going to be debuting. So I was like, all right, fine, I'll give this a try. And I actually have really enjoyed it. I'm not too far in.

Like, I think I just started season two pretty recently.

So no spoilers.

Yeah, no spoilers, please. I am very excited for getting to some of the, like, social media references, especially when he pulls up to. Excuse me, is this the cult?

We're not a cult. We're a collection of like minded, reminded people. Yeah, this is it. Like, I'm really looking forward to getting to that episode.

Yeah, I. I love the show, but I do agree. I think the animation style is my least favorite part still.

But the propane stuff, Listen, I'm a charcoal guy, but his whole thing of propane just all. It makes me so happy. I love stuff.

Agreed.

Yeah, that's classic comedy. Joe, what have you been geeking out on lately, man?

My wife and I are going back and forth doing a season of Buffy and Angel and then doing a season of the Arrowverse. So I've been getting. I'm watching through Buffy for the first time in full totality.

I've seen random episodes, but this is my first full watch through of it.

And then it is a fascinating experience to figure out just how much I forgave when the Arrowverse was happening in real time because it is a trip to go back through that universe.

Yeah, I love their. How they did the characters. But, yeah, going back a lot, there are a lot of shows on CW that are hard for me to rewatch.

I think some of the Arrowverse stuff is, for me, Buffy. Like, I like Buffy as a concept, as a whole.

But it turns out I really only like the latter seasons when, like, the storytelling is more like a story and not episodic. I have been ruined by our modern times, and I find episodic TV really hard. Unless it's Adventure Time, apparently. I was fine with that. I don't know.

I thought Joe was gonna really lean in people. Yeah, I thought Joe was really gonna lean into the 90s and say, like, Buffy, angel, and then like Xena or Charmed or something.

Just like, I want to watch Xena now.

I haven't seen that show in a while.

All right, guys, come back next year. Our Easter special on Xena. Don't ask how we're gonna do it. Yep.

Let's go.

Oh, man.

For now, though, I do want to ask everybody to consider rating and reviewing our show, says Mike Ecology, wherever you're listening, Spotify, Apple, Podcasts, wherever. It does not take long and it does help a lot with algorithms and stuff. Supposedly I don't know enough.

I'm just told things and I nod my head and go, okay, I'll say that. Also want to shout out one of our financial supporters, James Barrett. James, you're amazing. I hope you're having a wonderful Easter today.

That will preached a good sermon if he didn't deduct it from his Systematic Ecology pay, which is nothing, but it's fine.

But James, we do appreciate you and listeners, if you want your own shout out, you too can become an official member of Systematic Ecology on our website. That's down below in the description. And yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff over there.

Even if you don't become a pain member, you can become a free member to get some content. You can see some of our T shirts, other just stuff that we put out there is all on that website there.

The shirt I'm wearing right now actually is from part of the series we're talking about today. It's the faces behind us and it kind of shows a little bit of some of the characters. We're talking about ish people who look like the characters.

But you know, this series we're just talking about people who inspired the main characters in some of our franchises. So this is our annual theme. If you want to get that T shirt, it's also available on the site. Again, I think it looks really good in purple.

We don't have a lot of shirts that look good in purple, so if you like purple, this is your shirt. Yeah, of course. Coming up next, as part of our annual theme, we will be discussing other Time Lords who inspired the Doctor and Doctor who.

So that'll be on the main feed if you guys want to hear the next episode. I don't know who all's on it, but I'm hoping I'm on it. Should be on it if I'm not. So that's what we have to look forward to.

But today we're gonna go ahead and jump right into something a little magical. Talking about, of course, the Chronicles of Narnia, which I'm infamous. One of my bad opinions is this is my least favorite thing that C.S.

lewis wrote. So I brought two people who are better at it to join us. Also, I think I mentioned earlier the Annual theme faces behind us.

The playlist for that is going to be in the show notes. I'm also going to include our very first annual theme that Joe proposed and Brandon helped make happen was the Year of Lewis.

So I'll put a playlist for that too, if you guys want to go back and hear some of our Narnia chats.

Not that far back. Yes.

21, 22. Yep.

Well, I'm gonna throw it to Joe because Joe's the big Narnia head in my mind. So what is your history with C.S. lewis and with Narnia and just kind of introduce us to what's going on here.

So first and foremost, as we get started, there's just. I gotta, I gotta see if I can still do this. What's up, you geeks? All right, so now that that's out of the way, we.

So Narnia is a fantasy franchise that suffers most by being compared to its contemporaries. It is nothing like, like Lord of the Rings. It is nothing like Song of Ice and Fire.

It is nothing like any of these other high fantasy worlds that, that it tends to live in the same conversation with.

And I think part of the reason why you have so many different sharp one way or the other opinions on for or against Narnia is because it's not the same as these bigger franchises that are def. That definitely have a larger and much more rabid fan base than. Than generally Narnia attracts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When did, when did you first get into these books? I know you didn't necessarily grow up the same kind of like household that I did.

I know you have been a fan longer than. Than me books.

Anyway, so. So fifth grade was the first time we read lion the Witch in the Wardrobe. After that, it wasn't until it was. It was after I became a Christian.

And so we're talking, I don't know, probably seven, eight years ago was the first time I read through all of them and started, started at the first, went through the, went through the last, realized that it's an out of order story, then went back and read it in chronology and in the chronological order is where I absolutely fell in love with. With it.

I also would say for anybody who hasn't experienced them narrated, if for nothing else, there is a copy out there of the Last battle that exists that is narrated by Jean Luc Picard and. And it is peak fandom. Yeah. Yeah, it is peak fandom.

Yeah. That's. That's awesome. I. Yeah, so I mentioned my bad opinion is my least favorite of C.S. lewis's books.

But I want to caveat that with it's still Lewis. Like, it's saying my least favorite of C.S. lewis's books isn't saying that I don't like it. I still really like it.

I just happen to, like, screw tape letters and stuff a lot more.

And then.

And if we're doing it as a series as opposed to individual books, it's also different because individually, Voyage of the Dawn Treader, that's on up there. That might be one of my favorite CS Lewis books. It's just some of the surroundings that Magician Nephew I love.

I actually am not a huge fan of lion, the Witch and Wardrobe, which is what we're talking about today. And some of it, I want to say, is because to me, the allegories and stuff just feel so in your face. I'm like, this is painful.

But I have friends who didn't grow up Christian who didn't even know there was a metaphor or anything there. They had no idea. So I think a lot of it just has to do with how I grew up. So it felt in my face.

And then I'm like, oh, well, if I didn't have that context, maybe I would have been able to read it different. I don't know. That's where I'm at. Brandon, what is your history with the Chronicle of Narnia books?

I, too, know somebody who read the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and the Allegory went right over their head, which is impressive. I think that's incredibly impressive. Yeah, I would say. I think I actually first started reading the books probably right around the same time.

Joe was kind of that, like, late elementary, early junior high somewhere around there. I don't think I actually have read all of them still. I think there's like a.

Like one or two here or there that I like still to this day have not gotten to. I think my earliest introduction to Narnia was through the BBC films. I remember seeing the old BBC lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe film.

I think that would have been before the reading the books and obviously was before the Disney films as well. I would say I would put Till we have Faces as my least favorite Lewis book. I think that one is really dry.

Fair enough.

But to kind of piggyback off of Joe a little bit when he was saying how part of the reason why this series maybe doesn't kind of gets overshadowed compared to a lot of the other more high fantasy that is written around its time as a contemporary.

It's not really even Fair to compare it to some of Lewis's other fictional works as well, like Space Trilogy, Ransom Trilogy, depending on how pretentious you are. Which is way more. Which is way more. Way more. It's much more subtle. It's much more different.

It is written for an older audience than what Narnia was written for. So. So yeah, just to kind of carry off of that a little bit. Even within Lewis's works, it's not even really fair to compare it to other things.

Which is crazy though, because I feel like the average person, Narnia is still going to be the thing that they know CS Lewis for rather than the other stuff.

Yeah, yeah, I. I do want to throw it too, before we get to our next question, because I feel like I want to just throw out there. There are a set few books that were tainted for me personally. And this is just like personal bias stuff.

So, like, I don't feel like I'm just justifying myself a lot. Maybe I don't need to do this, but it's fine.

When I got assigned books to read in school back when, you know, ADHD isn't real, then I couldn't finish them, so I just got aggravated at the book instead of myself. So there are also this also fell into like, that thing where, like, I tried to read it, couldn't read it, got aggravated, dumb.

But then later on when I was able to start, like, focusing better and I learned some of the, like, habits and stuff that I need start taking medicine can read better. I read all other loose stuff and I was like, maybe I should go back to that Narnia thing. And I was like, oh, man.

And yeah, so yeah, there's a little bit of that bias. It's similar to like, Hunger Games. My bad opinions with Hunger Games too. Like, I can't stand them. And I know it's my fault.

I went in thinking that it was going to be about cannibalism and giant violent stuff. And then I was like, oh, there's one person who dies over an hour into this film. This is awful.

I will.

Expectations could ruin stuff.

I will join you into that Brave Knight and say, you know what? The Hunger Games suck. Why? Because they're boring. Because.

Because nobody's compelling and the entire thing is garbage and only a byproduct of a post Twilight world. I said what I said and you can send all complaints to my seminary life gmail.com.

Yeah, if you guys want more rage bait, ask me later about my opinions on heated rivalries. For now though, I. I Think everybody for the most part knows what Narnia is of some sort. I, you know, maybe there are a few who don't.

So instead of just like, hey, we're gonna explain something that people have already heard a million times, I want to hear you guys and myself give the worst explanation you can of Aslan's story in the line the Witch and the Wardrobe. Just the poorest explanation. And I can go first, give you time to think about it if you want.

My, my version would be an all powerful lion, put some children into unintentionally let children be part of a giant war, risking their lives and then died. Well, no, we know it. Here we go.

Unintentionally put children's lives in danger, then used his legal prowess and his knowledge of law to save them from battle. I think that's a pretty terrible explanation as far as things go. Joe, Joe, what's your, what's your bad explanation of Aslan's story?

In Lion Witch in the Wardrobe.

A British kid almost gets killed over Turkish Delight. We have cruelty towards animals and then the animal gets off on the technicality.

Love it. Love it. All right, Brandon, worst explanation of Aslan's story in line of Witch and wardrobe.

Turkish delight kills lion, question mark.

Oh, God, I love it.

Simple but effective.

Yeah, I was trying to. We all. I was trying to like Josh did really long. Joe's was a little shorter. I was like, okay, I'm gonna be like the, the very short version.

Yeah, and if TJ was here, it would be lying. Good.

Does anybody want to clarify any before we pass on since we did bad explanations, or are we gonna let that set and expect our listeners to be smart enough to know what the story is? Okay, so if we don't need to clarify, I'm going to go ahead and move on and just keep Brandon up here. Brandon, now I want to know who are the kids?

Edmund, Lucy, Peter and Susan. How would you explain them well this time?

Oh, explain them well this time. Okay, so it's World War II and we're trying to get the kids out of the bomb area. And these are four siblings. Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy.

I can't believe you said their names out of order. It made my head hurt.

I was giving myself time to remember the names.

I forgot they are taken to.

This was like, like in real life something that was going on during World War II in Britain, kind of taking everybody out of the city, all the kids that is out of the city into more rural areas away from where they would expect the bombs. To be dropped and the. The kids are put up in a home of some. A professor. Peter's the oldest. He's kind of like the stereotypical firstborn.

As a stereotypical firstborn, Susan has an interesting character arc that is unpacked later on. She's kind of just there in this story.

Edmund and Lucy are kind of the central characters of the children in this first book with Lucy being the first one exposed to Narnia and then Edmund being the one who is deceived while in Narnia.

Yeah. Yeah. And I do think, is it Susan? We kind of see some. I feel like she's a little bit more skeptical than the rest. Being a little bit more matured.

Peter is the strong older one. Yeah, yeah. So I do think, yeah. Lucy and Evan being like the main ones for this. Edmund wanted candy so bad, he doomed everybody. What's.

What's going on? Like what. How does this make sense? Because it sounds out of context. Really silly.

Yeah.

I mean even in context it's still kind of silly if you don't know what Turkish Delight is.

Yeah.

Which I vaguely do.

I would argue that it's even more silly knowing what Turkish Delight is because if anybody's ever, ever had it, it is the most mid thing. And you're like this kid was about to dime out his entire family and. And just screw everybody for a mid dessert.

I'm just saying it is just as ridiculous knowing what Turkish Delight is.

So what is it that that causes Edmund? You doing a little brain refresher? What causes him to say, hey yeah, let me make this deal dooming everybody for this candy? Is he just hungry?

He's just have a sweet tooth? Like what, what makes him decide that this is a good idea?

So Edmund is the. For.

For as much as Peter is the stereotypical like man of the house sort of, sort of eldest sibling, Edmund is very much the stereotypical bratty younger brother who's very self centered, very concentrated on trying to prove that he is, you know, quote unquote, more of a man than Peter. Even though like as a, as a child he has no idea what he's even. What he's even saying as far as being like more of a man.

But he is very much jealous or of Peter and feels like he is the black sheep out of everybody. And so along comes this, this witch who promises him this thing and promises him power.

And all he has to do is bring her the, the the siblings because everything at first seems like innocent enough.

And so she's like traying on the fact that he is a dumb child and he is very self centered, so he is seeing right in front of his face, no further and, and using that to like manipulate and coerce and all of that sort of stuff. And then you kind of get this shift into the other shoe dropping of like, no kid, you don't understand what kind of trouble you're in.

And like that now, now he has no choice but to follow until as Lane comes in and like saves the day and all of that sort of jazz. But it's basically a, it's, it's a, it's a, A scaled down version of giving, tempting, attempting somebody with, with, with.

With power or with what they wanted. You know what I mean? That, that, that temptation, that, that tempting fruit, if you will.

If you really want to like try to stretch out the Christian metaphor in this thing as far as you can get it. And you know, he realizes the error of his ways once he's saved by, by Aslan.

Yeah. Yeah. And the way Aslan basically.

So the whole world is like a lot of magic and there's a lot of rules to the magic and the White witch and Aslan both kind of know a lot of these rules and the kids are just kind of there. The witch seems to be intent, worried about the presence of these sons and daughters of Adam, you know. And yeah, all that you said happens.

Aslan really does, just through knowledge of law, go, wait a minute, I know how to break this. And he ends up sacrifice or he ends up dying on a stone tablet.

Coming back, you see a lot of like magic things happen and then the witch has that oh, crap face and knows that it's going down. Giant battle ensues, of course Aslan and them win. And then there's several more books. That's never the end of the story. Right? I. I'm just curious.

How does Edmund's choice actually impact Aslan? So we're talking about the faces behind us. I find it really interesting.

Is Aslan only doing the sacrifice because of Edmund or is he gonna do it anyway?

So can I, can I real quick before Brent, before you, before you jump in, Brendan. I want to be super pedantic here and be that Narnia nerd and say it is. It is Sons of. Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve.

Oh, yeah, I knew that. I just didn't want to take the time to say it. I was feeling lazy.

Oh, so being a feminist is something you can choose to be, Josh. Oh, so you. At that point, it's okay.

I'm Right into that one, Josh.

Anyway, I didn't even have to hit you with the chair. You just, like, turned into it on that one.

Are we gonna talk about.

Yeah, we're just gonna keep dog piling on you. Okay, so the question is, in Narnia, would Aslan. Was Aslan just going to die for.

For Edmund because of the situation, or was Aslan always going to die? Is that the question?

Or whatever he did. You know, I don't know if the.

I'm gonna get to the death stuff in a second, but, like, that whole event, dying, coming back, whatever it is that makes the magic happen. Does he still do it without Edmund?

Does he still do it without Edmund? Okay, so this is something I've been thinking a lot about as we've been going into this episode.

I have heard in from one of those thick theology books that I've read for a class, and, like, thick, like, you know, really long. Not thick, like, you know, the good kind of thick.

One of those thick theology books I had to read was talking about how what we see in Narnia is trying to remember the exact term now, but kind of this atonement theory where Jesus is replacing us in a way. It's like the devil has ownership of us, and so Christ's sacrifice was. Was a replacement to get us back from the devil. Not necessarily.

Yes, dying for our sins, but not necessarily in the way that you may typically hear in an evangelical church kind of thing, but more of a, the devil owns you, and so you are being bought from the devil. And that is more so the style that we are seeing here.

I will say this as a level one rank amateur Lewis person, I don't think that was CS Lewis's intended purpose was to communicate this kind of atonement theory. I think it just works for the book. You know, we were kind of poking fun a little bit at the.

Just how, like, on the head, a lot of the theology is in this one. I got to say, I love the death and resurrection of Aslan. I love the stone table. I love the stone table being snapped, like, all of that.

And then just like Lewis is just like such a comfortable use of the word magic throughout all of this. It is a deep magic. Do not quote the deep magic to me where I was there when it was written in my best Liam Neeson, which wasn't very good, but.

So I don't know if that can get us started or not. But I know that part of what's going on here is kind of this, like, bargaining aspect.

And if, if we're going to run with that theory, then no, Edmund has to be there in order for Aslan. Aslan has to offer himself in replacement of somebody in order for this kind of scenario to work out.

So I'll set it there and then you guys can, like, take it from there.

So that gets us to the next question, actually, because I was going to ask about atonement theory stuff because I don't know if I'm misremembering the book, but I feel like it's a little more ambiguous. Like, I've always is a little curious about this because it doesn't seem like the White Witch was.

If you die, I'll give you this, you know, like, I don't remember it being like that.

I also am not sure because, again, I don't remember exactly how everything's worded, if it was the death or the resurrection that caused, you know, them to be able to be free. So there's a lot of, like, questions here.

So when we get to the atonement theory, just for the theology nerds out there, the theory that Brandon was describing is called ransom theory, is like, you sin now the devil owns you. We're like, ransoming for one another.

The most popular today theory and like, evangelical American churches is probably going to be this penal substitution theory, which is really similar to the ransom. And that's this whole you sinned and you have to die. And it's not like the devil has power over it. It's like your choice. That's the consequence.

And God's going to substitute himself to suffer the consequence.

I myself am more of this Christus Victor model would be kind of the closest I think I come to when it comes to atonement theories that I think what's happening and we go to like, the real Easter story. I don't know about Aslan, but I think that Christ literally defeats death.

He defeats sin, the grave, all of that, and we can share in the victory rather than, oh, God owed something to Satan, or oh, we were gonna die. And he was like, I guess I'll die for you. You know, like, I think it's more of a victory story. Yeah, okay. Joe was dying to say his part.

Yeah, I'm. Well, I'm glad that. I'm glad that you went first because it ties in, gives a space to separate out the two. The. The two topics.

Because I think one of the reasons why the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe gets the rep that it does, and, and why, by proxy, this book is what informs A lot of people's opinions on Narnia as a whole as being this pseudo Christian allegorical, every bit has a tie in sort of, sort of misnomer that some folks have is because it does, it does. It plays with all of the puzzle pieces. Just not in the way that you should be drawing a clear cut comparison one for one.

But to jump back to the, to the theology portion of it first.

Yeah, I would, I would say, I mean somebody who cares a lot more about the, about the particulars and what you would classify things would have a much harder opinion on whether or not it's PSA or ransom. And in, in terms of the way that the, that that atonement works and is played out in, in lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

I think for the most part I would agree with the way that Josh laid out the different atonement theories. I think there's only so far that you can get into it when you're talking in terms like we are right now.

But I would absolutely fall into the same camp that, that, that Josh does simply, simply by the by proxy of it is the, this, this, this, this picture of, of atonement that has either a ransom being paid or a substitution being made relies on several key misunderstandings that to me have spun off so many bad thoughts. Either way I, I've seen like, like well meaning heresies born out of a misunderstanding about atonement because they heard it the wrong way.

Because they heard they, they heard it in a way. And it's a response to the Sunday morning model. It's trauma. It's, it's just a cycle. It's just a cycle of trauma. That's all it is.

And like likewise you have the institution promoting something that is predicated on the idea that you are a piece of crap and that you're no good and that you are all of these things and that because you pissed off God just by existing and having a pulse then, then you know, Jesus had to say, had to save you from your. Is everybody in the, in the church going to say it the way that I just did? Absolutely not.

But extrapolate out the thought process and do the research for yourself and ask the big questions on what something like PSA is telling you versus what something like Christus Victor is telling you.

Because it more in lines with everything about what we know up including up to the point of resurrection and including the Old Testament and including because oh crazy.

It's one continuous narrative that ultimately leads to Jesus and you can't separate any of These out to try and custom fit an atonement theory or some principle about God that neglects a different part of Scripture. Okay, I'll stop preaching. That being said, the, the other side of it is the world that Lewis built. So as somebody who I, If.

If Brandon is qualifying himself as a level one, which I think he is underselling himself, then then I would certainly put myself at least at a two or three or something along those lines. I, if I can go back to. If, If I, if I could go back to school and just get some degree that doesn't like it's not going to help me in anything.

It's literally just classes that I want to take a degree in. Narnian studies would be. Would be phenomenal. And so what. What we have here is a custom build of. And words mean things.

And we could talk about this another time if you want to. But Pagan, you know, Wiccan Christian. Different aspects and pieces of different belief systems instructions.

And then I'm not, I'm not being exhaustive when I, when, when I say that, but you have this, this, this prophecy of the Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve. So in order to understand that, you need to understand that.

That humans have always been intrinsically linked to the background of, in the, in the Narnia that they were destined to be kings and queens of. Of Narnia and rule over and over Narnia. Like you know, you got, you got the. Why am I blinking?

The Emperor beyond the sea and then as land and then, and then the, the. The kings and queens of of Narnia. And so the, the Pevenses the the. The four the four kids they. They are not the first in.

In terms of lineage lineage, but there is this, this prophecy that the, the rule and reign of Jadis the White Witch will be broken upon. Upon the entering of the. Of the Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve. And so now, now you separate out what's happening into a context of, of. Of.

Of a larger mythos where, where there's there is a a prophecy. Now was what are we going to take it as far as to say that that by. By all of what I just said. I don't know.

The Metichlorians came together and birthed Anakin. You know what I mean? Like like admin was an inevitability sort of sort of deal. Like like is that if that. If that's what we're saying.

Okay, I. I would say. I would say. I would go as. Go as far as to say that the story Doesn' argue it from either position.

I just think you would have to come strong if you're gonna try and convince me that it was. That it. That it was a definitive. These four kids were created for this exact purpose. And it had to be Edmund specifically that did it.

Versus these four kids fit the bill.

And.

And this. This. This one falls away. And this magic, this law was written into effect where if this series of events happens, then this is what you do, right?

This is what Aslan can step in, can step in and do in this situation. And the way I read it is less of. In. In all of this.

It has to be that one of the kids are going to screw this up and the whole thing is going to have to happen and Aslan's going to have to die and die and come back. It's less that and more this. This thing, this prophecy happened, and then this other thing also is true.

And more than one thing can be true at the same time. And during this thing happening over here, then this other thing happened. And so we can slot that in.

And because of that, Aslan dies, comes back the whole nine yards.

Yeah. Yeah. So a couple quick things so serious. Lewis and Tolkien were like, really good friends. So I. The fact that I know.

I know Tolkien better than I know Lewis, and the fact that I know Tolkien believes everything was created good does make me think, you know, I'm not sure that Lewis meant the Ransom theory or subs. I don't know. He might have. But, like, part of that's part of why I've questioned his motives there.

Especially when you go back to Magician's Nephew and you see how Aslan's creating everything in song, and I'm like, I just have a hard time piecing those two together. So I'm thinking it's just one of those stories. Allow a space to be a little bit more ambiguous. And that's why fiction's awesome. I'm gonna go ahead.

Since I know we need to start wrapping up, I'm gonna throw this next thing to Brandon and I'm gonna open a huge can of worms. After I said we need to start wrapping up, because that's what I like to do. As I've got to know more open and relational theology people.

I might be one. I'm unsure. And I'm meeting more of these people. And some of this.

There are some theology ideas out there that's basically this whole thing of God is affected by us the same way that we're affected by God. It's a relationship, not Saying that God's attributes change, but that he reacts to us.

And they'll point to parts in the Bible where it says God changed his mind. God did this, you know, different things.

And I think the idea is that we don't really have free will, we don't really have any of the self, and it's all stacked on top of each other kind of deal.

When I look at Edmund's story specifically as one of the faces behind Aslan, one of the things that stands out to me is, yeah, Aslan did an action because of Edmund that, yeah, he would have done for someone else, but it was because of what Edmund did. Like Edmund's actions still did have an impact on Aslan. And then later you'll see that Aslan's what Aslan did had an impact on Edmund.

When we go to my favorite book in the series, we see this guy named Eustace who is absolutely worse than any of the other kids, way worse than Edmund ever was, in my opinion.

Sure.

But Edmund is the most compassionate towards him, the most understanding that this guy's awful. He ends up becoming a dragon and, you know, Aslan ends up saving him too. But I'm not sure that Edmund could have been there for him in the same way.

And I think that would have fundamentally changed this story as well, as well as the Final Battle, all kinds of other stuff, if it wasn't for Edmund did something that caused Aslan to react, that caused Edmund to change again. So it's like kind of, I don't think we're ever just a one way influence. So I think it's a little bit of both.

And in the story anyway, who knows how that applies to Jesus. Brandon, how, how do we look at this?

Do we think that like just kind of like how we see this with Edmund and Aslan, this kind of push pull relationship. Is our relationship with Jesus similar? Is it like what we did caused Jesus to do something and then we're just reacting to what he reacted to?

Is it like a normal relationship? What's, what's going on in your mind?

Well, first I have to address something that's going on in my mind from Joe's meant what Joe said there a moment ago.

Because Joe, like me, has this tendency to slip in geeky terms where they don't need to be used, but it's just, you know, you speak the language and it happens. And he said the phrase custom build to describe Lewis's building of Narnia.

And now all I can picture is CS Lewis bent over with a paintbrush painting, a Warhammer, 40K character. Like, that's all I can picture now.

Okay, so to oversimplify and over summarize, Josh's question, basically what we see in Narnia is Aslan and the children and beyond with, like, Eustace, who is. Say it with me, useless. Eustace is useless for at least most of the voyage of the Dawn Treader.

We see this kind of like push, pull, as you're saying, of the children are doing something. Edmund, Eustace. And this causes Aslan to intervene and the children are changed as a result. Is that a picture of our relationship with Jesus?

That is the oversimplified we sinned.

It's a better wording of my question.

I'm trying. I'm trying to Jesus, no, wait, we sinned. We sinned. Jesus had to die for that sin.

And therefore, I think part of that, though, is the words coming out of my mouth. That takes us back to the atonement theory thing of what I am describing then is penal substitution. We did something. Edmund did something wrong.

It results in Aslan having to intervene. And then on the back end of it, Edmund is changed and therefore can positively affect Eustace down the line. I will be clear.

I'm not advocating for that position just to be clear. I'm just trying to show how I think the way that we're having this conversation. These are the pieces that are playing out. Okay.

I definitely think, you know, you look at First John, whatever. I'm terrible with references. One of the reasons why I'm not a very good pastor. First John, we love because he first loved us.

So our experience of God's love, Jesus's love for us, therefore informs how we love others. And obviously, this also goes to the Holy Spirit's involvement in, you know, the fruit of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace.

Joseph and his brothers have been. And his family are all reunited. Jacob has died. The brothers are like, oh, no, Joseph's going to kill us all now because Dad's gone.

And it says in the text that when they come to Joseph seeking forgiveness, Joseph forgives them and speaks kindly to them. And so what we see in that text is that, Joseph, we're not Joseph, we're the brothers.

If anything, what we see in the life of Joseph in his relationship with his brothers mirrors the parable of the prodigal son, of the son going off doing his thing, basically wishing his father was dead, and then having to come back to his father to seek forgiveness and offer himself lower than what he should as a child, as his own child, and the father accepts them. It's almost verbatim the same thing with Joseph and his brothers. And it is his kindness that reconciles this relationship.

And therefore Joseph serves as a picture of God's kindness to us, reconciling us back to him.

So I definitely would agree that what God does impacts us in a way that where his specific characteristics, love, joy, peace, kindness, grace, mercy, justice, the whole bit, all of the above.

How he demonstrates that to us, therefore then changes how we do that towards others, or at least it should, despite how the rest of American Christianity works. But that's something for another show to work on. Whether it's we did something and therefore God has to respond to that.

I'm still trying to work out on my own, if I'm being honest right now. I've been reading the book of Exodus and that does come up a lot.

What you said earlier of and God changed his mind and God remembered and it's like it is very relational. The book of Exodus is hyper relational.

It's God stepping into the story of Israel and saying, okay, I'm going to make this more personal now, this what we're doing here. I'm going to make it even more personal than my relationship with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And so from the lens of, I guess I would say two perspectives. Narnia is a book. Lewis can write what he wants.

And so yeah, it is quite obvious that the actions that the children do directly influences the Jesus character. Yeah, Scripture to me, as I'm working my own faith out, it's way more ambiguous to me than it used to be.

I did come from the whole, well, God didn't really change his mind, was going to do this all along kind of perspective. That was what I was raised in. To me that just seems like too simple of an answer.

Like we're scared to maybe sit with the idea that God does change his mind or that even that our actions make an impact on him. So sorry, that was a long winded answer for here's one thing and I don't know about the rest, but hopefully Joe can save us all.

Now I give you a really complicated question.

I'm gonna speak my piece and let Joe take us home before we finally do the actual wrap up Here just because, you know, Joe might have smarter things to say than me. And I don't want to go after Joe. I want to mention, since just on the base of what you were talking about, I think I have flip flopped.

I'm still working it out, mind you. I just want to, like, asterisk everything I say.

I'm always like, I might be changing my mind, but I think I flip flopped a little bit on this where I think, you know, I did grow up in that whole, this stuff's literal, this stuff's not. And the parts that were literal was, God's the same forever and always. Past, present, future. God's always exactly, you know, whatever.

And then the stuff, he changed his mind. That's not literal. And I think, and mind you, I don't believe in biblical inerrancy anymore.

So if you guys want to just trash everything I say, that's cool.

And I also want to say on our network and even on systematic ecology, we have other hosts who do believe in biblical inerrancy, who do follow substitutionary atonement stuff. And I love them, I treasure them. I just disagree with them, Right?

And when it comes to this, it's not that I think one's little and one's not, but I think when we talk about God being the same forever and always, I think we're talking about the characteristics of God, who God is, and I don't think that changes.

But when we say, like, yeah, God changes his mind, that to me makes sense because I don't think God knows the future because the future doesn't exist. So I don't think there is a way to know the future. And that's going to get me in trouble. But we can debate that on a theology podcast sometime.

There's a lot of how we interpret the Bible when it comes to prophecies are just funky and weird anyway.

The.

The stuff like God regretted at the flood, he's like, I regretted making humankind. Like, I feel like God is actually reacting to what we do. Now. To me, I would say Jesus not on the cross.

That's not when he paid the debt for our sins, he died and he came back because he defeated hell in the grave for us. Like, I think that victory was done because we basically enslaved ourselves through our choices, and he still came and won.

And I think he did that for us. And as a reaction, I'm celebrating that victory and I'm trying to help others share in the victory of Christ.

And that's pretty much who I am as a person is because I'm reacting to what Jesus did there.

And I think that that reaction to one another between God and man, yeah, that relational aspect, that hyper relational stuff in Exodus, I think all that is literal, it's true. But I also think God doesn't change his characteristics. So that's where my liberal friends can be mad that I still like immutable. That's God.

And my conservative friends could be mad that I'm like, he changes his mind and everyone can just be mad. And then Joe can save us with some profound wisdom after. I sound stupid.

So going back first and foremost to the story that we've been talking about, I think one of the things that Lewis does better than Tolkien and really any of his other contemporaries is he play. He, he's.

He's very good at mythology legos where he will take aspects and pieces from different belief systems and bring them together and use them for an overarching story.

I, I think part of the issue that I have with the way that the, the way that Narnia and, and this whole story gets used as a stand in for thinking about PSA or Ransom or something along is it's closer to a victory than it is a, than it is a. Edmund did something wrong expressly. And because of that, Aslan needed to, needed to die. We also don't.

I would not be as confident as Brandon is about, about simply stating that the children's actions affected Aslan. I don't know. I don't, I don't know. As I see it as, as vividly though I though I see where, I see where it could be.

It's not one that I've got a, I've got a solid, a solid opinion on one way or the other.

And I think when you look at, when you, when you look at Narnia, it's taking individual puzzle pieces and then coupling it with a kid who is initially tricked. He's in a bad, bad, bad head positioning, bad spirit positioning out for himself. Absolutely.

That part of it you cannot take away take away from the text. But it's not so much of a deliberate screw these guys as it is a trick and a temptation to go off that way.

So just being, being clear about the actual story of, of Narnia, I, I do think that there is a level of action of, of action response in the story. So this, so the faces behind, behind the people, right?

The face behind Aslan and what he did is Edmund because Edmund was tricked and because a son of Adam found themselves in that position aslan responded as Aslan did, what he knew that, that he could do.

People who want desperately to find the theology in that moment and try to extrapolate out what something exactly looks like and says, then I, I tell you that you will be scratching your head because it is part of a couple of different things. It is not one clear cut thing.

So I agree with Josh that even though I will be very open about the puzzle pieces that, that he's, that Lewis is, is working with, that his exact goal was to show one atonement theory because there are individual aspects of different atonement theories and different puzzle pieces. And you also cannot lose track of the fact that we are talking about paganism and witchcraft as well, very openly.

And that influences the entire, the entire conversation too.

So I would just like to say for all of my high minded theology brothers and sisters that so desperately want to comb this and drudge the depths and beat this thing until it's senseless to make whatever you can make of a hyper progressive or a hyper conservative point of view, chill out bro, and just enjoy the story. That's all I'm saying.

Just, it's enjoy to take the, taking the entire mythology of the Narniad and, and experience something that has a lion singing it. Dude, just shut your mouth, close your eyes, listen to somebody narrate. Aslan bringing the world into existence. It'll change your life.

It is an amazingly beautiful piece of art in my opinion. In my opinion as far as where does this intersect and where does this, you know, is this, is this a, a reflection on our relationship with Jesus?

I'll go Sunday school first and then I will take, take my rightful position as being the heel of the group. I. Yeah, I mean responsive love is responsive love. The Bible says it and, and, and we wouldn't know love if we did not experience, experience love.

So from, from the divine to the human, that, that part of the road is clean and open. It is, it is, it is a beautiful picture when, when we get to love our neighbors. And I do mean that as a filthy liberal that, that your neighbor.

The answer is yes. I don't care how you read the Good Samaritan because there are a couple of ways of reading the Good Samaritan.

It all lands you in the same part of town. And so like caring for everybody and anybody with all of the asterisks.

I cannot sit here and pastor everybody on, on what it means to love without destroying yourself right here and now.

But yes, that part, that, that part of it I wholeheartedly Agree on the other side of the street, I'll play the heel because I think it's, I think a lot of what I hear in general. And there's, there's, there's multiple flavors.

For anybody who doesn't otherwise know, there's multiple flavors that stem off of this very topic right here. Most, if not all of what I've heard is a very heartbreaking, very, very sad trauma response.

Because remember what I said before from jump, from the churches, from the trenches, from evangelicalism, but there's that word evangelicalism.

It's a, it's a.it's a house of cards on words and concepts that have already been divorced by, from their initial meaning, from what the test, the text says that they says that they are, or what a dictionary says that they are. And they're all frontloaded with our own presuppositions and our own readings.

And if you do all of that, that then you can very easily end up in a part of town that, that says, oh, well, well, this is, this is literal and this is figurative. And that doesn't matter where you land because you change those dials, you.

You set that, that setting just a little bit either direction and you get into an entirely different belief system. An entirely different belief system. So, so I, I'll go to the same, to the same parts of town that you guys want to.

Want to play in and say, okay, then I challenge you at the level of how it would have been understood by the sour part of what you guys are saying. I fundamentally believe is a Western. Read into the concept.

I think it is something that we gre that we deeply want as Westerners and we think of it in a post enlightenment model and we think of it in terms that lead us to this point of saying this is literal, this is figurative, without missing, with, missing while. While.

Or let me say it like this, without taking the proper level of consideration to asking and focusing on what the purpose of the text, what is, not what this individual thing is.

I have met beautiful souls, wonderful people by every standard in measurement that believe that God changes on a whim, that God will change his mind at the drop. At the drop of a dime with a compelling argument from a human being. Okay, cool, great.

Just like I have met really, really terrible people who are just so ignorant to other parts, parts of thought that fall into that same category. And the same goes with the other side of the coin too.

So we can villainize or say this perspective is right and that perspective is wrong and all of that sort of Stuff. But ultimately at the end of the day, I guess I say even though I am a heel in saying no, no, I don't read, I don't read.

God changed his mind in the, in the, in the sense. I think it's, it's trying to convey a point, not, not say something hyper specific topic. I still say it's all, it's all open handed.

Every single bit of it's open handed in anybody.

I don't care if they're open and relational or, or penal, substitutionary atonement or free will or, or not free will or predestination or whatever other category hovers around this topic. If anybody's coming to you saying thus, say at the Lord, I got it figured out.

Then I challenge anybody come everyone and come strong because you're talking about something that cannot be fully convinced of. There's not enough information. It's not the point of the text.

And so, so to me, I cool as far as like the faces of and the motivations of and all of that sort of stuff.

But to me, as somebody who studies theology and studies the Old Testament deeply, I don't like those comparisons because I just don't think it's focusing on the right. Right. The right thing. And it's the same thing that would get you to any one of these different arguments. Right.

Because you can argue about, about creation and you can argue about the Flood and you can argue about Adam and Eve and you can argue about whether or not Sodom and Gomorrah was real and, and why in this and this and that without actually taking time to consider what the point of the text is.

Yeah. And of course, you know, that's where we're always going to disagree some.

You know, I do a lot of study the Old Testament background and stuff and I'm like that does seem like it's part of the point of the text and someone else is going to say different. And that's why you go to theology podcast, you get your theological resources, look stuff up yourself, do some of the work.

You know, I like Thomas J Ord, I disagree with him on a lot of stuff, but he's developing a systematic theology of Love is the book, he's called it. And that's where you can see some of that perspective.

You would like Wayne Grudem, some of the other people, you'll see some this, other perspectives on that kind of stuff and always go to your Bible. There's lots of commentaries, biblical resources that, you know, love pointing people to that.

Stuff and can I say, can I say something about that real quick? I'm going to say something unpopular real quick. I don't really like systematic books, personally. Like, I don't like any of the systematics.

I don't care, like, I don't care what your, what your origin point is or what your leaning is or whatever like that, because I think every single one of them is trying to push it through the lens of a very specific presupposition. And I think we can, I think, think we can very, very, very, very quickly lose the rabbit on any one of, any of them. Any of them. Take your pick.

If the, if you're gonna say what about so and so, I'm gonna say yes.

Even if I don't know who they're, who it is that you're talking about, I'm gonna say yes, because I put, I would, I would put all systematics to exactly this, this point.

And, and I, and, and I only bring that up to say, to reinforce the first thing that you said, Josh, because I think there are so many things that us, we are now, as, as everybody on this group is, is different ranges of millennial. And so we have grown up in a pre digital and post digital digital world and post digital world.

We've come, we've come to this idea of we need to, we need to have an opinion on everything. We need to, we need to know what the hell we're talking about on, on everything.

And when we present on social media, we gotta come strong and come with everything that we've got and we've got to document everything. It's this idea of social media, and we post.

First thing you do when you're on vacation, you got to post a picture and all that sort of stuff, which is just bad op security. I'm just saying you're letting everybody know that you're on, that you're on vacation and that your house is empty. I'm just saying.

Anyway, so all of that needs to sit in a context where if you are claiming the name of Christ, do not care. I'm a yes and sort of guy. I'm not a full. We all have free will and nothing else. And I don't think predestination is a thing either. Purely.

I think it's a yes and dynamic, and I think the Bible would back me on that one.

I think when you, when, when you look at what our role is as, as, as followers of Christ, if you claim the name of Christ and you're trying to figure out this whole theology thing and all of that sort of stuff. Then, then at the bare minimum, you know, seek wise counsel, right? Seek, seek, seek wise people, people around you. That's all. That's wonderful thing.

That is a, that is a holy thing to, to do. But do the work for yourself, know what you believe and why you believe it because you should be able to disagree well with other people.

Now if you got somebody coming at you saying that Jesus is a giant flying spaghetti monster with pencils for arms, and I'm saying that as a bit because it's not always that, that, that, you know, hyper obvious and all that sort of stuff. If it's heresy, it's heresy.

But like also at the same time we gotta chill on the idea of what is and isn't heresy because we've come to where you want to stop a conversation, you want to stop a theological discourse, you just call somebody a heretic and storm away. Right, but, but I, but listen to what Josh is saying. Josh is saying here.

Put, put, put in the work to discern these things for yourself and take ownership of your beliefs. Don't take it from me, don't take it from your pastor, don't take it from your, your favorite, the theologian or your favorite podcaster.

Take it for yourself because there are so many tools to be able to learn on your own, freely available to you.

Yeah, yeah, try really hard not to chase the rabbit because we're already pretty well over time. Just say I do disagree about the systematic theology stuff. I think you should read as many of them.

Our network ground is all podcast network for those wondering. We're all about honestly engaging and I don't think Joe would disagree with this part.

I think you should find as many different perspectives as you can can learn what they are and honestly engage with them. Whether you agree or not. You should at least be able to engage with other perspectives.

That's what we're trying to do here and hopefully we can continue to do. And yeah, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up, but I want to urge everyone just to think like Paul said in some letter. I'm not the pastor here.

Paul said in some letter he forgives because he's been forgiven so much. And I think that's what we see in the story of Edmund and that's what I feel in my life and hope you guys also feel the same.

If you're out there listening and you haven't accepted Christ into your heart, all that stuff, go listen to Will's homily that's on the network and love Jesus and know that you are loved. You have been forgiven much. And it's now our turn to go out and forgive others and show compassion and be like Edmund the Eustace and all that stuff.

So we're gonna wrap this up now. All the preaching sermons aside, you know, it's Easter. We're alive. Allowed. Allowed a few extra of those.

Without further ado, I do have to get some recommendations going, and I'm gonna start because you guys trigger recommendations for me. I'm gonna recommend two songs, weirdly enough, Christian songs. Guys, this is weird for me.

I don't recommend Christian media usually, but there's a song, Deep Magic by John Mark McMillan. You guys use the phrase a couple times that's used in Narnia. And yeah, this song's incredible.

I like John Mark Milan, and he does a really good job of kind of showing, like, this thing that we call our faith can be mystical. Magic isn't necessarily a bad, scary thing. Sometimes it's okay to just embrace the magic of what Jesus has done for us.

So I think that's an incredible song. Also one of my favorite songs to listen to in January and February, which is when we're recording this Reliant Gay as a song.

Always winter, never Christmas. And that always makes me think of Narnia with the White Witch and how it's always winter but never Christmas. And it's a great song.

So check those two out if you want. You don't have to, but, you know, I recommend them. Brandon, any recommendations for people out there?

As the one person who likes Turkish delight, go get yourself some Turkish delight. Apricot is the easiest flavor to get. Rose is my personal favorite. Favorite. Not too big of a pistachio person, but, you know, go that route, you know.

Fair enough, Fair enough. All right, Joe.

Chewing on cud. What is the matter with you? I'll pray for you. That is. That is absurd. Y'. All. I. I'm gonna. I'm gonna take it in an entirely different direction.

If you are the type of person who appreciates the yester year of gaming and you want to experience a different take on in the early days of Pokemon outside of the mainline games, then I would strongly suggest to enter into the ROM hack world. There are a million ROM hacks out there. I am in the middle of a. A replay through a rom hack of Gen 2, and it is. It's really cool to.

To see what people do, to expand on what was largely primitive at the time, to create entirely new worlds using mechanics that we already know.

Yeah, yeah. I have a friend at work who started doing Pokemon xy. He's got a rom on his phone. You're doing XY on your phone? What a day we live in.

This is the day the Lord has made when I can play Pokemon on my phone. Guys, please remember, rate, review our show wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps with algorithms.

Supposedly.

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You're great.

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If you like purple shirts, this is the one for you again.

Next up in our annual theme series, Faces Behind Us, we'll be discussing other Time Lords who have influenced the Doctor and Doctor who right here on the main feed. So just be waiting for that. And of course, we need you all to do one very important thing for us.

And remember, we are all a chosen people, a gikom of priest.