Joshua Noel and Christian Ashley dive deep into the complex character of Axel, also known as Lea, from the Kingdom Hearts series, exploring how this fiery figure resonates with themes of identity and sacrifice. They kick things off by reminiscing about Axel's journey, from being a thorn in Sora's side to a character that evokes both love and frustration. Their banter is filled with witty insights and shared experiences, reflecting on Axel’s transformation and his relationships with other key characters like Roxas and Xion. As they dissect Axel's motivations and the philosophical questions surrounding his existence as a nobody, they reveal how friendship and loss play pivotal roles in his arc. Listeners are in for a chill, yet thought-provoking conversation that highlights the emotional depth of Axel's story while keeping the vibes relaxed and fun.

Axel's journey through the Kingdom Hearts series offers a complex narrative woven with themes of identity, friendship, and sacrifice. The hosts kick off their discussion by reminiscing about their first encounters with the franchise, particularly focusing on Axel, a character who initially inspires a mix of disdain and affection. Joshua recounts how Axel's role as a double agent within Organization 13 creates a rich backdrop for exploring moral ambiguity and the nature of existence in the Kingdom Hearts universe. The conversation dives deeper as they dissect Axel's transformation from a villainous figure in 'Chain of Memories' to a tragic hero in 'Kingdom Hearts 2', culminating in his poignant sacrifice for Sora and Roxas. This act of selflessness is framed as a pivotal moment that highlights the importance of relationships in defining one’s identity, echoing the episode's core message: one must sometimes lose themselves to truly gain a sense of purpose and belonging.

As the hosts wrap up their exploration of Axel, they touch upon the broader implications of his story within the Kingdom Hearts narrative. They discuss how the character's evolution serves as a metaphor for growth and redemption, emphasizing that true fulfillment often comes from letting go of self-serving desires. The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on the power of community and friendship, reiterating that while Axel may have started as a character shrouded in darkness, his journey ultimately leads him towards light and connection. This final sentiment resonates with the audience, leaving them with a sense of hope and a reminder of the importance of nurturing relationships in their own lives. Overall, the episode not only celebrates Axel's character but also invites listeners to reflect on their own journeys towards self-discovery and the impact of their relationships.

Takeaways:

1. Joshua and Christian dive into Axel's character from Kingdom Hearts, highlighting his complex journey from being despised to beloved, showcasing the evolution of his identity.
2. The duo emphasizes how Axel's relationships, particularly with Roxas, redefine his character arc, transforming him from a villain to a hero in the eyes of fans.
3. They explore the philosophical themes of loss and identity throughout the Kingdom Hearts series, questioning what it truly means to have a heart and how friendships can shape one's existence.
4. The conversation reflects on Axel's ultimate sacrifice in Kingdom Hearts 2, illustrating the depth of his character and the poignant nature of his redemption arc.
5. Listeners learn about the significance of memories in Kingdom Hearts, particularly how they affect the characters' identities and relationships, making for an emotionally rich narrative.
6. The episode wraps up with a discussion on the role of friendship and selflessness in personal growth, echoing broader life lessons that align with the themes of the Kingdom Hearts series.

.

Be sure to check out our merch, find extra content, and become an official member of Systematic Geekology on our website:

https://systematic-geekology-shop.fourthwall.com/

.

Check out our other gaming episodes:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/409f2d81-9857-4426-b1f0-d8a02e58b150

.

Check out other episodes with Joshua:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/642da9db-496a-40f5-b212-7013d1e211e0

.

Listen to every episode with Christian:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/ebf4b064-0672-47dd-b5a3-0fff5f11b54c

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Your SG Merch now!

Check out the link to see all of our different t-shirts, backpacks, drinking glasses, pajamas, and more!

SG on Fourthwall

The Anazao Podcast Network

Be sure to check out the network website to see other podcasts trying to engage honestly with Scripture, Theology, Pop Culture, Martial Arts, Science, and more!

Anazao Podcast Network

Become a member of Systematic Geekology on our Website!

Check out the link to become a member of Systematic Geekology! All member get exclusive extras and shout outs on the show! Some of the paid tiers of membership get store discounts, free merch, and more!

SG on Fourthwall

Follow us on Instagram and BlueSky to keep up to date!

Follow our show on our socials to keep up to date and get some exclusive content and fun memes!

Systematic Geekology

Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.

Foreign Jesus once said, you must lose your life to gain it.

Got it memorized.

Today we're talking about Axel from the Kingdom Part series and how he did kind of lose his life.

It's gonna be a lot of fun.

I think probably it'll be fun for me because it's Kingdom Hearts, baby.

We're doing another Kingdom Hearts episode because at least one of the co hosts on this show truly love me.

I do what I can for you, buddy.

I'm Joshua Dole.

That other voice here is the one and only Christian Ashley.

How's it going, Christian?

It's a fine morning.

Josh Clark.

It's a talk about some Kingdom Hearts, you know, break my mind early in the morning, so the rest of the day I'm a vegetable.

It's fine.

Yeah, Keto Hearts sometimes makes you think a little too much.

You're like, I don't know if I wanted to do all that actually.

But you know, it's fine, it's fine.

I love this franchise.

Really excited to get into it.

First we got to talk about what we're geeking out on.

Christian already knows I restarted the Mass Effect series and I think I forgot how actually what it is.

I think it's just substantially better when I'm medicated because Mass Effect is a lot of story.

Like you do not play that if you're not interested in the story.

So it's been great, this goal.

I've taken my meds playing the game and I know what's going on.

It's awesome.

That makes a lot of sense.

Christian, what you been.

What have you been geeking out?

I'm glad you're getting back into Mass Effect.

Me, on the other hand, I saw Scream 7 recently and you know, as opposed to what, you know, other co host Leah's opinions, I was far more positive on it and I'm ready to see more.

That that makes me happy because I just started watching Scream like a couple years ago, you know, obviously not the kind of thing I was allowed to watch when I was in my parents home till I was 18.

And at that point we're on like scream four or five and I'm like, I don't.

I don't know that I care yet.

But yeah, the original stream is one of my wife's favorites.

She doesn't care about the sequels, but I watched the first one, I was like, well, now I got to see all of them.

What are you talking about?

Right?

You can't just leave them out there in the ether.

You have to finish it.

Yeah, yeah.

So I can't wait.

I can't wait to watch that one also.

But we move on here if you guys would.

We would really appreciate if you could rate and review our show wherever you're listening, wherever you get your podcast, whether it's Spotify, Apple Podcast, some weird thing I haven't heard of, which is probably most things.

I. I'm not very well attuned to the technological world.

But we do know wherever you do rate, review the show, it helps the algorithms think our show is important.

So when you do it, other people see our show, then they'll think our show is important and we could just trick everyone into listening to this so that I can talk more about Kingdom.

It'll be great.

Also, we want to thank one of our finding, all of our financial supporters.

But today we want to specifically shout out my aunt, the one and only Annette Noel, who's the one who turned me into a geek but doesn't do video games.

So this is not.

This episode's not for her.

But that's fine.

I still love it.

We can still thank her.

Yeah.

I just want to remind our listeners, you can get your own shout out like Annette by becoming an official member of Systematic Ecology in the on the website, in the show's description down below.

Whenever you go to like the episode and you like read the description, all links are down there.

Guys.

It's great.

A lot of good stuff.

You can also get some extra free content.

You can buy merch over there.

You can leave one time financial gift on the site without joining a member.

So if you don't want to be a member but you still want some other cool stuff, the website's still for you.

I'm wearing one of the shirts right now.

One of the newer ones, geeks on a roll.

So I get some dice and fun stuff on there and promote that other series.

So if you guys haven't heard that series yet, Christian is the all time champ.

So if you like Christian, it would be a time to check that series out.

I just got my shirt yesterday too, so I'm the one wearing it.

He'll be wearing it when he records to remind those other players who the real winner is.

Just to assert dominance.

Yeah.

All right.

So let's jump into some Kingdom Hearts.

Getting to say that sentence just feels nice.

I might do it again.

Let's jump into some Kingdom Hearts.

That was good.

So first I want to talk a little bit about why we're discussing this right now, some of our history with the video game Kingdom Hearts.

Whole franchise.

And then character particular.

Axel, who we're talking about.

First off, Axel's incredible, if you didn't know.

Yes, I despised him for a large portion of my life.

And now I'm at that weird point where, like, I hate this character, but also love this character because my hatred of him was just so strong.

But I just don't know if I can quite shake it.

Even though he's great now I'm like, yeah, but there was still that chain of memories bit, dude, like, at the back of my head, I'm always thinking about that one, you know?

Yeah.

So for those who are unaware, I'm trying to make this Will friendly.

That's my episode.

My goal for this episode, to make it will friendly.

So, Phil, you're listening.

You'll do one drink for the episode and we're going to try to explain this well enough that you can talk to us about it.

My history with the video game franchise, basically, PS2 happened.

I saw this and was like, oh, that's what I thought those Stitch commercials were for.

Because Stitch got to see all the other Disney characters and I want to see other Disney characters.

And for me, at first it was just about seeing Disney characters.

And then I grown deeply attached to all the other characters and the story and the lore and then the messaging of the video game about how relationships are really what define us.

And then all the philosophical questions behind that of what makes you you?

Is it your memory, your heart, whatever?

I. I just.

I'm all in.

I don't know, man.

It's been a long time.

I'm all in.

I have a substack that I haven't updated in forever, even though I have articles written for it.

Don't know why I have an update, but yeah, I love Kingdom Hearts.

Axel, as I mentioned, have a weird relationship with.

I remember playing Chain of Memories was the Game Boy advance and it was between Kingdom Hearts 1 and Kingdom Hearts 2.

It was called Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories.

And me being a great student, sat in the back of every class so I could have my Game Boy out under the desk trying to play Chain of Memory.

And that's the.

All of the reasons I got detention.

I think they were all because of Chain of Memories.

And then I got homeschooled and continued to play J.

But Axel and Riku were the two that I remember just losing so much to.

I'm like, I need to know what happens next.

I need to go see Ariel's World or whatever's next.

And this guy just got in the way.

And he just made me so mad.

And I didn't care that much about the story back then because I was young, but that.

So that kind of, like, I think this guy stuck with me.

And then later, when I paid more attention to the story and I see his whole redemption arc, I see who he was before he came a nobody.

And I'm like, man, I get it.

This is a great guy.

What a.

What an arc.

But, man, you just couldn't let me get to that next level, could you?

So that's where I'm at.

Christian, what about you?

What's your.

Your history with Kingdom Hearts, Axel in particular, et cetera?

Yeah, I should have some other episodes, but, you know, someone's first.

Like, I didn't get into Kingdom Hearts until after college, where one of my roommates, friend of the show Cameron Anger, was playing the final mixed version of Chain of Memories he had.

I was like, what are you playing this Disney game based with, like, Final Fantasy stuff?

And, like, I liked at that time I had played them because before I knew it existed as a franchise, but I was like, at that age of, like, mixing Disney and Final Fantasy, why would I ever engage in something like that?

So, I mean, he was really enjoying it.

It's like, you know what?

I'll give it a shot.

Started with the first Kingdom Hearts, and it's like, oh, I actually kind of liked it.

This is actually fun.

I really hate the platforming, but you know what?

I'll move on with my life and.

Because I've never been a good platformer.

And then it kept going to the series.

Loving it more and more.

Then when you get to Axl as a character, I love him.

Like, it was like, as a character, love at first sight for him.

And it's like the.

The fire.

I've always loved people who use fire.

You know, he's got an iconic look, and he's also got that, like, shifty.

Like, you don't really know where his allegiances lie.

And I love a kind of.

It's not a slim character, but, like, that.

That you.

You don't know exactly.

Can I trust them?

And then from there, moving on to the series, actually seeing him, like, redeem himself and want something more for himself, it's like, okay, you're my guy.

I got your back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it could be a whole other episode, so I won't go there.

But part of it also kind of touches on, like, my relationship with, like, reminding myself, well, yeah, mental health's a thing for other people, too, because, like, the thing that really makes you mad when you lose to him a thousand times in chain of memories and Even Kingdom Hearts 2 is he does that, like, got it memorized.

And he just.

He acts so full of himself.

And you're like, God, I just want to take this guy down.

And then later, when you get the whole story, you realize it's because he's a nobody.

He's dealing with, like, a crisis of identity.

And one of the few things he's held on to from his life before is kind of that phrase and this kind of mentality that he had as a younger person.

And you're like, man, it feels bad to be mad at you for this, but still, really, did you have to so many times?

Got it memorized.

Yes.

I know you're Axel.

There's a few other words I'd like to call you, but.

So recently we had an all reading counts episode with me and DJ talking about in game literature, and I reread all of the secret reports, and that's what kind of inspired this is.

Like, I was like, oh, oh, this is why he lost himself.

I kind of.

I think I still knew this, but sometimes it's hard to put all the Kingdom Hearts pieces together and realize, oh, there's this story here that I also care about, because there's so many stories in Kingdom Hearts all crammed together and sometimes in the backdrop, and you're like, sometimes you forget about one or two, and then you revisit something, and you're like, oh, yeah, that was a good story.

And that's kind of what happened.

Rereading the secret reports.

And I was like, Axel Lee, great, great character.

And this is for Will.

Can we explain what are heartless nobodies and what is organization 13 in the simplest of terms?

All right, so heartless are basically beings of darkness formed either from someone losing their heart.

And heart is kind of like mixed with soul in the Kingdom Hearts universe, they're kind of one in the same.

And me and we had an episode of that a while back.

There's some debate.

There's some debate.

I'll get there.

And to the point of, well, if your body is gone, your heart is all that remains.

And if twisted by darkness, it becomes a creature heartless in some way, shape or form.

Depending on the strength of your heart, you may come a really strong heartless, or you're just this weak little.

I almost said nobody, and that would have made no sense.

It was about just every chair.

Yeah, there you go.

Little thing.

Yeah, yeah.

Now a nobody.

Okay.

A nobody is actually what kind of the.

The.

The thoughts and also kind of the soul remnants of a person who's been lost to darkness.

But there's enough strength of will for them to be able to manifest beyond just being a heartless.

Because like, some people just heartless, some people heartless and nobody.

Yeah, yeah.

It has a lot to do with the will.

If you have a strong enough will and your heart gives into darkness, your heart becomes a heartless and your body will become a nobody.

If you don't have a strong enough will, you might just become a little heartless, a little cute one.

That kind of looks like the creatures at the beginning of Space Jam.

Yeah, but it's a good way of putting it, you know?

Yeah.

So organization 13 are all nobodies who were just so powerful, so they had even more will that they still look kind of like themselves.

Whereas most nobodies look like weird white leather creatures.

In my mind, they all look like they're made of leather.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Not sure why the cloaks of the bosses don't help.

And supposedly, if you're a nobody, you lack emotions.

We will see how that actually plays out later on.

Ohar.

Yeah.

And so their goal is to find a way to reconstitute themselves and also take control of Kingdom Hearts, which is a place no concepts, a state of mind amongst many.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

So to.

To really kick us off before we get to some of the bigger stuff we want to talk about, I'm going to have Christian help me summarize the story because I'll get too excited and talk too much.

We're going to do it in order that we see him.

So starting with chain of memories.

Christian, what.

How do we learn about Axel?

What's he doing?

This game.

So as Sora is going through Castle Oblivion after the events of Kingdom Hearts 1, he stumbles upon the organization 13 members that are in Castle Oblivion.

There's reasons for why they're there.

We're not going to focus on it for right now.

And Axel is one of the people who comes up multiple times against him to confront him about, hey, here's.

We want you here for a reason.

Like commit this to memory.

Got it memorized.

It's kind of the theme of who are you without your memories?

Go ahead.

I just gotta say, for those who don't know, this is like just some Greek, some.

Some geek flexing.

It was originally committed to memory, but then once they did the voices, the English dub or whatever for Kingdom Hearts 2, they realized it doesn't fit the lip movement.

So it became.

Got it memorized.

Yeah.

But just a fun little thing.

Yeah.

Thank you for the interruption.

So his thing is, like, he's actively working with, like, the Lear here, Marluxia, to take Sora's memories for their own purposes once again.

I'd go too deep into that.

But actually he's working as a double agent for Ximnas, the real leader of organization 13, who knows that these malcontents here are trying to use Castle Oblivion for their own ends, and has sent him to, like, take them out.

And so he's kind of like being a stealth mentor to Sora a little bit.

It's like, I'm going to fight you, but I'm also going to leave so that you get a little stronger.

Getting experience fighting me.

When you're fighting the other ones, you have more experience.

You can take them down.

And then he kind of leaves.

Yeah.

So the leader of organization 13, his name is Zemnas.

Right.

That's who's in charge of it at this point.

Zimmes.

His goal is wildly different than some of the Other Individual Organization 13's goal, where you would think they would all have the same goal because they don't really have a heart or emotion.

But really, a lot of these individual members want to reconstitute themselves, want to unite their bodies that are called nobodies with their hearts.

So they have different motives than the one on top.

So that's where you get some of this weird political stuff, where some of them are trying to overthrow the organization 13.

Axel is like a double agent, where he's like, I'm helping Zimnus, but I'm ending to help these guys who are trying to overthrow the organization from within.

None of them really have good motives.

Some of them just want to be themselves again because they've constantly been told that they're nothing and some of them are just loyal to organization 13.

Axel seems to be one of those who is loyal, but is a really good actor when it comes to being a double agent.

Yes.

So Kingdom Hearts 2, you start off very early on as Roxas in the middle of the data space.

It's its own thing and I have

no story about it.

But not the one with Khan, which

is also in the game, because I would so.

And you'll learn more about why this matters when we get to 358 over two.

But Roxas, Axel kind of confronts him, manages to defeat him enough to where?

Because Roxas is also sora's nobody.

It's his own thing that he constitute himself for.

For an important bit of information which we'll get back to in358 by 2.

Sora is a freak who has like 17, 000 hearts for.

We don't know why.

Yes, I'm oversimplifying this again for Will, but at some point, Sora does become a heartless in the first Kingdom Hearts game.

And at that point is when Roxas was born.

Roxas looks exactly like someone named Ventus.

And Ventus's heart for some reason exists inside of Sora's body.

Don't know why, but it will be relevant later on.

That's for you, Will.

Yeah.

So originally, fun fact, he was supposed to die here, Axel, and that would be the end of this story.

However, due to the producers of the game and like playtesters of the game really enjoying his character, they decide, well, we'll expand him so he doesn't die here.

He's defeated.

But it's kind of.

He takes the fall because he wants to lose, to help Roxas reconstitute himself and regain his memories and all that mess.

And then because he, Timmy, clearly in Kingdom Hearts, loves Roxas and you have no idea why.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

You don't know the story yet of why.

Like, he's friends with Roxas.

Then eventually, you know, he gives a little more information about, you know, why the organization's doing what he's doing to Sora in the game and how does he end too, because.

So, okay, so after this, he kind of takes a back seat and I think.

I'm not sure if we know that he's around or not for most of the game, but near the end.

And that's what really challenged me as a human at a young age.

As you're going through the final level, you're doing all these huge fights and then you come up to something that, like, you just had a really hard boss fight.

And then a horde of nobody villains come and you're like, I'm not sure if I'm going to hammer this.

Right?

And Axel shows up, sacrifices himself, defeats everybody and looks at your character and goes, I just wanted to see Roxas one more time.

And you're like, bad man, you're making it so hard to hate you.

So I'm going to ignore this and still hate you.

I was young enough, I could do that.

So this is when the nobody of Axel dies, as it were.

Yeah, yeah.

And it was truly, it really did Even though I hated the guy, it was still like, heart wrenching, man.

Because he sacrifices himself for you, you know, nothing really of his story.

You're like, why would this guy do this?

He's like, I just wanted to see Roxas one more time.

And that's like, what?

So let's talk about Birth by Sleep.

Sure.

It's a prequel.

Kingdom hearts prequel.

Yes.

10.

10 years before, I believe, the events of Kingdom Hearts 1, we see this redhead named Lee.

Now, every member of organization 13 has an X in their name because X's are cool.

That is true.

X's are very cool also because, you know, Keyblade, High Blade, X Blade, whatever you want to say.

That's the whole thing that Zenith is after.

Answering is after.

Xehanort is after.

Is its own.

Yeah.

That has more to do, from my understanding.

That has more to do with, like, Japanese etymology, kind of deal with, like, lettering and stuff.

Yeah.

It just doesn't translate as great to English.

But like, chi.

Keyblade sounds the same, spelled slightly differently.

That's where you get the X.

And all the organizations, they don't remember their name.

So the letters are reorganized and then X is added.

So Sora becomes Roxas.

So we see him with his friend Issa and a couple of the other people who eventually become members of organization 13 as kids under the care of a man known as Anselm, who is different from the other Anselm.

That's his own thing.

We're not doing that this episode.

I talk a little bit about that in the In Game Literature episode, though.

Okay.

For those who want.

That'll be good.

And this is before they become nobody.

So you learn along the way, the implication is from Birth by Sleep is that they are experimented on to the point where they lose their hearts.

There's a heartless them.

There's a nobody them because of what we see here.

But we'll get to more of that when we get to some of the secret reports.

Because I am going to talk about that role in a minute.

But I think that's all, you know, during Birth by Sleep.

Because he's not in it long.

He's.

There's a world called Radiant Gardens.

And you just kind of see him, some of the other characters, and they're just kind of like cool kids having fun.

You're like, that was a fun little world with huge implications to the overall story.

This is what Key to Hearts does.

Like, they're also like Mickey's origins.

It's just randomly in there, like a tiny Little thing.

And you're like, what?

No.

Anyway, all right, so birth wisely.

But then we have a Lore Dream.

Drop Distance is where I think Lee really starts to be like, oh, he might be top, like 3, 4 characters.

Drop distance is after Kingdom Hearts 2.

This is no longer prequel area.

Will.

Yes, as mentioned before, if you are able to destroy a heartless and a nobody, there is a high chance of that person being reconstituted, reformed, and reborn as who they were before.

Again, depending on how you defeat them.

Because a Keyblade doesn't truly kill things.

So if you defeat something with a Keyblade, it unlocks or releases them.

So you're releasing their empty shell, body and their heart, and they could reconstitute.

Yes.

And if you have a strong enough will, I think is another thing that he had a strong enough will to make a nobody.

You have a strong enough will to reconstitute yourself.

If you want to be confused.

There's also such thing as spirit.

That's nothing to do with heart, soul, or body or will.

So anyways, Lee has been able to reconstitute himself, but he's never called Lee by anyone else.

He's only referred to as Axel because that's what they know him by.

So eventually he gives up and just decides, you know what?

I'm just going to be known as Axel.

And he shows up multiple times.

And in there to protect other people is like your big dang hero moment.

To prevent, you know, Xehanort and Zimnus and the rest of them from taking control of Sora and Riku and Mickey and the gang.

And now he is firmly on the side of our heroes, starting with this game.

Yeah.

Tiny bits of context.

The Dream Drop Distance.

Basically, the entire game is Yen, Sid and Mickey Mouse decided that it's time for Riku, Sora, your two main characters, to go through a test to become true Keyblade masters.

Riku, the guy who was your best friend, became antagonist, who was like always like a. Oh, we're not sure if he's going to be good or not.

Character passes.

Your main character, Sora, fails the test.

That's the one.

That's the coolest part of Dream Distance.

It's not a very good game, but that part was cool.

And part of it is because organization 13 is kind of playing apart, trying to trick so they can trap Sora, because Sora is the real threat for some reason.

And I think Axel kind of tricks them because they're like, oh, yeah, he's one of us.

He's not now.

And he goes in and saves Sora and you're like, I didn't even know this character was in this game.

How is he saving me right now?

And don't you remember that chain of memory thing?

I'm supposed to hate you.

Yeah.

So next up, this is probably going to be more you because I. I read the secret reports, but it's been some time.

Yeah.

Let me.

I'll touch on secret ports before we get to Kingdom Hearts 3.

Okay.

And I'm just going to touch the parts about Axel, obviously, because it's too much for everything.

But you learn more about the kids at Radiant Garden.

We mentioned Lee was among some other kids that become part of the organization 13.

I'm gonna try and lay it out as easy as I can.

And some cool scientist guy.

Cool scientist guy had apprentice guy named Zemnus.

Zimnus is doing these secret experiments on heartless and nobodies and stuff underneath the castle that they all live in.

Because they do.

Some of the kids were just volunteering.

Specifically though Lee and Isa were.

Were trying to save a girl who's being experimented on.

They learned some unknown girl is being experimented on under the castle and they keep trying to save.

Not mentioned until three.

This.

Yeah.

But it's in all these years.

No, no, I'm saying.

I'm just saying that after all these years have killed up.

We don't know this until three.

Yes.

Yeah.

Because there's also secret reports in three and in two and.

Yeah, just don't worry about it.

But you're learning all this stuff about what happened.

They tried to save this unknown girl.

We still don't know who this girl is, by the way, because it actually probably can't be Kyrie because of timeline things.

No, it's probably Ava or Skold.

Yeah, I've heard that.

But that's another episode for now, just how they're trying to save some girl who's being experimented on and end up getting caught.

A couple times they end up kind of wrapped up while trying to save this girl.

And that's how eventually they end up amongst those people helping Zimnus do these experiments.

And then they all eventually lose their hearts, become nobodies, thus starting organization 13,

which is what we call in the business a retcon.

Although it fits.

It fits well enough that I'm like, I know.

I don't know if it's a full retcon.

It's like a person sound like I'm angry.

It's just one of those.

Like, this could have been mentioned earlier.

There's no way we could have figured it out.

And that's what makes it feel very retconny.

But also, I don't think it breaks anything.

It's just kind of a little bit of information that I think they could have put when we were in Radiant Gardens during birth by sleep, but they didn't.

So, yeah, I'm just complaining at this point.

Let's move on.

Kingdom Hearts 3, what is Axel's story here?

So he is actually training with Kyrie, who is on her way to becoming a Keyblade user too.

He, because of his strength, has developed a Keyblade as well and become one of the Guardians of Light, as it were.

And you start with the two of them, like, you know, talking about, you know, why they're in this.

He's in it to, like, bring Roxas back and there's something he can't remember as well.

We'll get to that in a moment.

Like, he also wants to get that done in addition to everything else we talked about.

And Kyrie's, you know, always been protected by other people, but now she wants to be the protector.

In the original cut of 3, she's not with the DLC much better on her end.

But this isn't the Kyrie episode.

So for Axel, he is, like, committed himself.

He is not Lee anymore.

He is Axel.

Like, everyone just calls me that.

That's just who I am.

And he is, like I said, training under Merlin with Kyrie to become a Keyblade wielder.

As time goes on, they end up with the.

Well, right before the final confrontation.

He serves as our audience surrogate for anyone who's been following these games or hasn't been following these games.

He's like, so wait, you're who.

But you were in her heart or his heart.

And who's this Cricket?

Like, what?

What.

What's going on here?

It's really convenient that he doesn't have his memory so he could ask all the questions that people need asked.

And this is a lot of things to get memorized.

It's very on the nose.

Yeah, very on the nose.

But it needed to be said.

So I'm glad Axel was there to speak for on my behalf.

Even as someone who has studied these games more than others.

Then you get to final confrontation with organization 13.

The idea being is that they're trying to get to Kingdom Hearts and they're fighting against these different people.

Axel is able to reunite with Roxas and mysterious carrier character Xion, which we'll get to later on in a bit as part of what they were going through earlier on.

And that's been.

His whole thing is like trying to bring them back.

And now he's remembered that he was supposed to bring her back, too.

And that'll make more sense when I talk about that in a little bit.

So we get.

We get an ending for something we haven't spoken of yet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because there's just too much in Kingdom Hearts to.

To cover even a significant percentage of it in any meaningful way at once.

Yeah.

But.

Yeah, no.

So I will push back a little bit.

Even though I think you're.

You're right.

And you were just simplifying it for Will because you said, you know his will.

This is confusing talking to Will and about Will.

But Axel's will, you said, is what got him the keyblade.

I want to argue again that it was relationships.

He first had his keyblade during Dream Drop Distance when he went to save Sora because of his deep bonds with the Roxas.

And that's what makes me think it's actually because of friendship, because that's what Kingdom Hearts does.

And that's why I keep recording with Christian.

Because one day, if I record enough with Christian, Ashley, I'm going to be sitting here and boom, a keyblade is just going to appear in my hand.

It's going to be great.

I hope it does, buddy.

That's how the real world works too, I think.

I don't believe that for those.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we mentioned the confusing bits.

Roxas looks like a character named Ventus from Birth by Sleep.

Because Ventus's heart ends up in Sora.

So when Sora becomes a heartless, his nobody looks like Ventus.

I know that's confusing.

I just have to say something.

Highlights.

Maybe someone will help me get it.

When they were all nobodies, they were all part of the organization 13.

Jeann was introduced to their group while Axel was off on secret missions.

So this is annoying.

So the 358x2 was really confusing.

That's just.

It's a prequel to the prequel.

Don't worry about it.

But they actually was it Afterbird.

Okay.

Anyway.

Is a game and it focuses on Roxas before Kingdom Hearts 2.

And Roxas is mentored by Axel, who is called Axel at this point because it's his nobody who's like, oh, we don't really have hearts.

But then they'll go out and do my.

She's like, oh, I'm tired.

You want to go grab some ice cream together?

And that's where sea salt ice cream, to me really solidified as like, yeah, when Christian comes over this summer, I'm going to have some sea salt ice cream.

It's going to be great.

Actually, I already got an icicle popped.

We're gonna do that for real.

But they bonded over that after their missions given to them by order.

These 13, it's just kind of like they're just doing work.

Von is some mysterious person who shows up.

Axel ends up having to go on some.

Basically, he is sent away because the game couldn't make the narrative work where chain of Inverse was happening at the same time.

So they were like, axel's not here.

Because we don't feel like trying to bounce those stories back and forth.

It also serves the purpose of, like, isolating Roxas.

Yeah.

Because then Roxas had to become friends with Xeon.

And then when Axel came back, Roxas is like, I want to share my new friendship with you.

Quick CS Lewis rant of the day very much reminds me of when C.S.

lewis talks about friendship.

He says it's different than romance love, because friendship wants to keep adding people to it.

Romance love wants to isolate.

Friendship is.

We're about this thing.

So for Roxas and Axel, the truth that they shared that made them friends was this.

Ice cream sunsets that they're not just mindless robots.

And Roxas shared that same truth with Xian.

So then when Axel comes back, he's like, well, all of us should be friends.

We all have the same experience.

Experience where even though we don't have hearts, we're feeling something and we want to eat ice cream after the job and look at sunset.

And that's where Xeon comes in.

And it's really confusing.

We'll talk more about Xeon on our bonus episode.

But the three of them have a unique friendship.

So one of the big questions that Kingdom Hearts 258 by 2 asks.

Yes, I know a lot of nouns.

I'm sorry, guys, do nobodies really not have hearts?

And it's.

It's a weird thing.

I don't think the game ever directly addresses.

I think if you were to speakly, strictly talking, like physics, what's happening?

I think the game's trying to say their heart isn't there, but something else, whether it be their memories.

Because Keena Hearts talks a lot about memories, their friendships.

Something is allowing them to still constitute a real person.

So much so that In Kingdom Hearts 3, not only does Ventus heart return and Ventus exist as a person.

Sora exists as a full person.

Roxas becomes his own person who never had his own heart originally.

And the same thing kind of happens with Xian that's really confusing.

But this idea of friendship, memory, other things other than just your soul, spirit, whatever, making you who you are is a big theme in the games.

So these three's friendship really brings to question, were they ever truly without a heart?

And Christians going to definitively answer that for us?

Sure.

So the idea you're angry or was.

Sure, yeah.

The idea that we're presented with here is when your heart is taken from you, who are you?

And that's what the nobodies are asking about themselves.

Now we are told by an unreliable narrator that of course being Zimnus, that they have no emotions, they have nothing resembling a heart in themselves.

They are just ciphers.

They have no true will of their own outside of.

Yeah, you do, but you don't.

Because by the way, stick with me, I know everything that's good for you.

The truth of the matter is he's lying to their faces because he wants to control them and they learn along the way.

That's why Marluxia kind of gets the bit of rebellious streak that he does because he wants to do things his way and he wants to control his world his own way.

Axel is developing a friendship with Roxas, Roxas developing a friendship with Axel and Buffalo Xeon is a way of them learning.

Is that, oh no, we actually do have something.

It's not heart exactly, but there's something in us that still has these emotions.

We've been just told that we don't because he wants to control us.

It's never like outright stated, but it's kind of realizations that they have.

Yeah.

Until basically three where it's.

It's more not.

It's still not outright stated, but it's more like kind of more obvious.

That's what he's doing to control them.

One of the pseudo scientist characters in Kingdom Hearts 3 kind of implies that nobody can develop a new heart.

And that's where they're like, I think we can make Roxas come back.

And then they do.

And the idea then is that relationships can actually create a heart, which is interesting for the games metaphysics that they didn't need to convolute any more than they did, but they did.

There we have.

There we go.

I love these three.

I love their friendship, what it does to the overall game and I love kind of the meta narrative in 358x2, where some of these also, just when you first introduced to nobodies In Kingdom Hearts 2, it's like, oh, the hearts become heartless, the bodies become no bodies.

And I'm like, oh, that's some fun wordplay.

Then you get 358 by 2 and you're like, oh, no.

Zimnus is telling them they're nobodies, as in, like, they don't matter.

So you kind of have like a double entendre within this.

A lot of wordplay going on.

And you see that they all buy into it.

Like, it's kind of like a cult.

But then you see some of them breaking the cult because their hate makes them realize, oh, I really am something that rebellious.

This, like, dark emotions.

Then these three find their own path through friendship.

And it's kind of like, okay, you can become your own person, whether you're just anger and will, and you realize that there's something there even without your heart or friendships can constitute something even deeper and allow you to really realize you're not a nobody.

God, I love these games.

They're so just weird.

Yes.

The thing I do want to talk about before we wrap this up, though, with Axel, not just the friendships, but it kind of ties in.

So in Kingdom Hearts 2, when he makes that sacrifice for himself, it's chronologically after these friendships, all this stuff.

And when you get the full story, you replay Kingdom Hearts 2 and you're like, that moment where he looks at Sora and goes, I just wanted to see Roxas again.

As far as he knows, sacrificing himself, he was just gonna die, but he knows that Roxas is in Sora somewhere.

So he's like, even though I don't really like Sora, I want Sora to succeed because that means Roxas is succeeding.

And as far as he is aware, he thinks he doesn't have a heart.

He doesn't really have feelings.

All this stuff.

And you're watching this and you're like, I hate to tell you a guy, but you.

You do.

You got some feelings there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And of course, being the.

The Christian that I am not that Christian.

This Christian.

Yes.

I can't help but, like, think of, like, better love, have no man than lay down his life for his friends.

Or you cannot find yourself until you lose yourself.

You find yourself in Christ after you've died to yourself.

And you know Christ isn't part of the game, but very much so.

Axel doesn't become himself again.

In Kingdom Heart 3, he starts going by Lee again because he deals a lot with, like this whole after the fact of realizing all the things that he did as a nobody, that he was the bad guy of Chain of Mirrors that made little Josh so mad.

And he just goes by Axel.

And eventually he's in this place with Kairi, he's training, and he goes, I just.

I'm not going to go by that anymore.

And you're thinking of the sacrifice that he did, how it was meaningful.

And it's like, okay, he was laying his life down for his friends.

And not only that, until he died, to that version of himself, he couldn't become Lee, the Keyblade Wielder one day, Keyblade Master.

And it's just.

I don't know, it's really meaningful.

And I also want to put in here before I let Christian take this away and we'll wrap up, would you see his whole story?

As a kid, he wanted power.

He wanted everyone to know who he was so that I could be immortal if I live in everyone's memory.

Got to memorize, you know, that's who he was as a kid.

And then he wanted to save the girl, save the princess.

He wanted to be the hero.

Then as Organization 13, he was, I'm dutiful to the organization.

I'm going to be the guy.

I'm going to follow all the rules.

And it wasn't until he's like, actually, it's not about me.

And once he makes that sacrifice, he's able to fully become who he was always meant to be.

And I like that little bit of narrative kind of in the backdrop of these games.

You said something that sounded really cool.

If they decided to do this in four, him wanting to be remembered.

If they do a Coco world, he has to be there.

Oh, that would be so cool.

Yeah.

Because that ties into themes of that movie.

Yeah.

Of who we remember, who's been left behind.

Oh, yeah, okay.

Sorry.

That is.

Yeah.

So he becomes the I am the organization 13 guy.

I'm going to be loyal to Zimnas.

And it wasn't until he puts all of that aside, willing to completely let go of himself, that he actually finds himself and becomes someone worth remembering.

Yes.

But that's exactly how it should work with all of us, is that we do recognize again, I have goals.

I have things about me that I want to do.

But at the end of the day, what is more fulfilling to me is it to get what I desire or get what God desires to See how my actions and what I decided to do actually aligns more with what he desires.

And that's rough.

It's not fun.

I'm the worst of the worst, the times when it comes to this, because I want to be in control.

I mean, the honest answer is I want to be God of my life.

And.

And I have only ever found true fulfillment when I give that up, when I say, this is what I want.

But what do you want?

I am a new creation.

Now.

Let me.

Because I have gotten the old man gone.

The old man is supposed to be dead.

Let me become this new person.

Like, I still have the memories of who I was beforehand and what I've done, but let me use that to motivate myself to never be that person again and actually go out and do my job and actually love other people well.

And I think that's something that Axel Lee does really well here because, yeah, they kind of keep calling him Axel, and he does like insisting on Lee, so he kind of gives up and says Axel.

But there's also that part of him that does want to become this Lee again and be like, what, not again, but a new Lee.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's just.

It's so cool.

I love it.

And even just taking the spiritual parts away, this is just advice.

If you guys want friends, it's solid advice, because if you're all about you and what you want to get done and you're trying to make friends and just kind of be like, hey, do this thing I'm doing, or, aren't I awesome?

You're just talking about yourself all the time.

No one wants to be your friend.

No one likes that guy.

But the guy who's like, I want to help you so much, so I am willing to lay down my life for you.

That's somebody people want to be friends with.

But also, I think it's just.

It's hard to not make that one spiritual.

And it's funny, because Kingdom Hearts is a very spiritual game for a game that doesn't talk about religion really at all.

Yes.

But, yeah, I think that's all I got.

That's why I wanted to talk about Axel, because I just think that sacrifice and everything that led up to it is just.

It's a good story.

It's good.

It's not the main story.

It's kind of just in the backdrop, but one worth talking about, in my opinion.

Yeah.

So thank you, Christian, for humoring me, fueling your addiction.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a good one.

At least.

I'm just happy you're playing a different game right now.

Yeah, right now.

It won't last.

I know this could change

with that, though.

Let's go ahead and wrap this one up.

I am going to start off by letting you guys know what the extra bonus question is going to be.

We're gonna see if we can make sense from Xian or Xian's claim in Kingdom Hearts 3.

And if we think that Kingdom Hearts 3 take on Xian was a cop out or if it really fit the story's message, we're gonna talk about it just a little bit.

But you have to be an official member if you want to hear us talk about this other character.

Christian, if you were to give a recommendation to everybody, what would you be recommending?

Yeah, I just did my kind of annual rereading of Sun Tzu's the Art of War.

I love that.

The very small book, comparatively speaking to others and just how it applies to a lot of things, not just warfare, but how you like deal with people and business and everything like that.

Or even the church could learn something from the Art of War.

So I highly recommend the Art of War.

All right, solid one.

I'm gonna recommend something far less serious.

There's a game called Astroneer and it's just kind of like a building adventure game.

The art is really.

It's like a flat animation and should really colorful and fun.

And if you like building games and you like space, I think it's worth a shot.

It's a good game.

It's a lot of fun.

TJ recommended it to me.

I got it for my birthday this year.

I was like, oh, this is great.

I'm not a completionist with this game.

I'm just kind of playing it in my downtime.

But I need to calm down.

It's one of those games for me.

It's a relaxing game for me, but I highly recommend it.

With that though, we do have to ask you guys to rate review our show wherever you get your podcast.

Spotify, Apple podcasts are one of those things I don't know about.

When you rate review it makes the algorithms like us and we like to be liked just like Axel or leave.

Also gotta thank our financial supporters today.

I want to especially shout out the one and only Annette Noel.

The one who I owe my geek to her guys.

And we also want to want you guys to know if you want to get your own shout out, you will have an official member of Systematic Geekology on our website.

Down in the show's description again, just hit like episode description go down, you'll see it there.

Lots of links, lots of good stuff.

You can also get some free extra content.

You can buy some merch on our website.

You leave a one time financial gift if you don't want to be a member.

Lots of stuff to do on that website, so make sure you check it out.

And of course, we need you all to do one extremely important, important thing for us, which of course is to remember that we are all a chosen people, a geekdom of priests.