Today’s conversation dives into the age-old debate: Was Magneto right? Our hosts, Will Rose and Andy Walsh, are joined by return guest, Jill Elizabeth, for an extremely special and fun episode! With a relaxed vibe and a sprinkle of witty banter, the crew tackles the complexities of Magneto and Professor X, exploring their contrasting philosophies on mutant rights and human coexistence. They delve deep into the theme of polarization, highlighting how both characters, despite their stark differences, share a fierce love for their kind. It’s a fascinating examination of how these two iconic figures reflect broader societal issues, all while casually geeking out over their comic book histories and the nuances of their relationships. Prepare for some light-hearted yet thought-provoking exchanges as they navigate the moral gray areas of heroism and villainy in the Marvel universe.
The podcast dives deep into the ongoing debate surrounding the characters of Magneto and Professor X from the X-Men universe. The hosts kick things off by posing the intriguing question of whether Magneto was right all along, setting the stage for a lively discussion on the nuances of heroism and villainy within the franchise. They explore the complexity of these iconic characters and how their motivations, shaped by their pasts, reflect deeper societal themes. They highlight Magneto's tragic backstory, rooted in the Holocaust, contrasting it with Professor X's idealistic vision of peaceful coexistence. The conversation shifts into a broader commentary on polarization in society today, tying it back to the X-Men’s fight for mutant rights. With witty banter and insightful commentary, the hosts not only examine the moral gray areas of their choices but also touch on the implications of these narratives in our contemporary world. This episode is peppered with humor, personal anecdotes, and a genuine love for comic culture, making it an engaging listen for both fans and newcomers alike.
The hosts take listeners on a journey through the intricate relationships and philosophies of Magneto and Professor X, elaborating on how their respective ideologies represent different responses to oppression. They argue that while Professor X embodies a more pacifist approach, Magneto's radical stance stems from a place of deep pain and survival instinct. The episode examines various comic arcs and films, showcasing how both characters have evolved over time, often blurring the lines between hero and villain. They tackle the idea of finding the good in both characters, emphasizing that while their methods differ, their ultimate goal of protecting mutant-kind unites them. With clever quips and relatable humor, the discussion resonates on a personal level, urging listeners to reflect on their own biases and the importance of understanding divergent perspectives in a polarized world. By weaving in pop culture references and personal reflections, the hosts create a rich tapestry of ideas, encouraging listeners to engage critically with the stories they love.
In this engaging episode, the hosts wrestle with the age-old question: Was Magneto right? They delve into the philosophical and moral dilemmas faced by both Magneto and Professor X, exploring how their contrasting approaches to mutant rights reflect real-world issues of civil rights and identity. The conversation is lively and sprinkled with humor as they dissect the complexities of each character's journey. They underscore the importance of context, discussing how Magneto's traumatic past informs his aggressive philosophy while also critiquing Professor X's sometimes naive optimism. The hosts also share personal stories about their own experiences with X-Men narratives, drawing parallels between the characters' struggles and contemporary social justice movements. With a blend of wit and wisdom, the episode not only entertains but also challenges listeners to consider how they view conflict and resolution in their own lives, making it a thought-provoking listen that transcends mere fandom.
Takeaways:
In this episode, the hosts dive into the complex relationship between Professor X and Magneto, highlighting their shared goal of mutant rights despite their contrasting methods.
Both Professor X and Magneto embody different approaches to activism, with one advocating for peaceful coexistence and the other for a more aggressive stance against oppression.
The discussion reveals how the portrayal of these characters has evolved, challenging the binary of hero versus villain as both strive for the good of their kind.
Listeners are encouraged to reflect on the nuances of morality, as the hosts explore the implications of each character's choices and the impact on their followers and society.
The episode emphasizes the importance of recognizing diversity within the X-Men universe, showcasing how each mutant's unique abilities contribute to the team's overall strength and success.
Finally, the hosts invite listeners to engage with the theme of polarization in today's society, drawing parallels between the X-Men's struggles and real-world issues of discrimination and acceptance.
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Systematic Geekology
Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.
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Was Magneto right? Is Magneto right? Will Magneto ever be right?
ip series and annual theme of:
Finding the good we know in our world is very polarized right now is.
And so part of us here at Systematic Ecology, I would say all of us here at Systematic Ecology have a goal and a vision that we want to create healthy conversations around those things. We geek out on and going deeper with our faith.
And so why not do that with our FAND and try to model for you all a way we can find the good in the other when it comes to our fandom, and hopefully that will kind of extend out, expand out like magnetic waves out into the world in other areas, our life as well. So, yeah, and I'm here with some friends.
We have regular hosts, Andy, and then we have a friend of the show who's been on another episode, and we hope she'll be on more episodes. Jill. Jill, how are you doing today and what are you geeking out on?
Jill Elizabeth:
Oh, I'm doing great. Thank you for asking. And I am geeking out right now on the Bible. It's like an easy answer to give a pastor, right?
Will Rose:
Yeah.
Jill Elizabeth:
Specifically, I came across a copy of a First Nations Bible that I had bought a few years ago. And so it is Native American or Turtle island translation of the New Testament. And I'm.
Well, it's both New and Old Testament, but I'm reading New Testament and I am loving it.
Will Rose:
Ah, that's cool. So reading that text and how they're translating or articulating those things will help you hopefully see things in a different light. Like, you just.
Sometimes we just coast on the normal English King James readings of things, but if you read it in a different way, it sticks a little. That's cool. Is there a particular story that kind of jumped out to you so far? You're like, wow, I didn't. I didn't think of it that way.
Jill Elizabeth:
Not a particular story, but it's for sure phrasing. It's like things that I would think of as nouns are verbs. It's all very active and it's very much in process.
And I find myself, like, sort of learning about process theology in. In a new way. And it's really beautiful the way that even the Son of God Is like one who acts as the son of God. It's just really beautiful.
Will Rose:
Ah, that's great. Cool. Andy, what are you geeking out on?
Andy Walsh:
Oh, good question. I'm still geeking out on the Carl Heinz Stockhausen joke in this is Spinal Tap. The end continues.
And it's a Tuesday, so I'm excited about a new episode of Only Murders in the Building.
Will Rose:
Nice.
Andy Walsh:
Fringe festival, including a:
Jill Elizabeth:
That sounds amazing.
Andy Walsh:
You know, amateur, semi professional, you know, actors in this, in this, you know, French show at. In Edmonton. It was, it was delightful.
Will Rose:
That's, that's good. You remind me like I don't know if I've watched with my family or girls. They're, they're in college, they're older, they're in their 20s.
But I don't know if they've ever watched the movie Speed like an early Keanu Reeves movie. That and I was like, you made me want to re watch that movie. And I wonder what they would think through their eyes as 20 somethings.
I'm gonna have to do that experiment because I remember seeing that in the theater and it was fantastic. Very, very cool. Yeah. As you mentioned is Tuesday as we're recording this.
Don't know when this is coming out, but on Tuesdays I marked my calendar another episode of Alien Earth. I am loving this show. I'm not like a Hugh Alien franchise super fan.
I do like those movies and I understand their, their impact on pop culture and even how we and ask the question what it means to be human. And I really think that, that this show captures the heart of what the original Alien movies were about and the questions that is asking.
And I'm having a lot of fun. There's definitely friends of mine and friends of this show who not know a lot more than I do.
And so I am definitely texting them after each episode like what is this? What is that? Like we don't know, Will. It hasn't finished yet. We'll find out later. So I'm asking a lot of questions.
But I really love Alien Earth and hope that we'll geek out and have a full episode once. What's the series? It's up any either of you two watching Alien Earth right now? Is that in your bandwidth of fandom?
Jill Elizabeth:
I am not yet, but that is right up my husband's alley. And we need a new show, so I'll maybe tune in.
Will Rose:
It is. It is fantastic. I love it. Andy, about you. You're Alien fan.
Andy Walsh:
Yeah. The alien world has.
Has passed me by so far, but I've started getting into the Predator series, so maybe it's only a matter of time before that crosses over into. Oh, Alien. Yeah. Just. Yeah.
Purely on the strength of the film Prey and then the animated film Predators, Killer of Killers or something like that that came out on Hulu this year. I haven't seen anything else but those two I thought were well done and got me interested.
Will Rose:
Yeah, they have crossed over. They're in the same family tree and they will, I think, continue to cross over. And they're even crossovering into comics too.
Like, they're jumping right into some of the Marvel DC stuff too. So that's kind of fun too. Yeah. Well, friends, let us know what you're geeking out on on the Socials and around the horn.
There's no shortage things to geek out on. And as I'm. I'm a proud geek and with proud geeks here too, so. So hop in and. And let us know what you're geeking out on.
I really want to thank all of our supporters from Apple, Podcasts and Captivate and Patreon. We especially want to give a big shout out and thanks to Aaron Hardy. Thank you for supporting the show.
And remember, if you would like your own shout out, you too can support the show. $3 a month. And on either of these platforms, we'll be happy. Give a big shout out.
And if you give us a review, whether it's one star or five star, we'll probably read it on the air too. I guarantee you I will be happy to read your review on air. So let's hop into the episode.
When we were brainstorming the polarization theme and finding the good and the other, Andy and I were both like, yep, yep, we gotta talk. We gotta talk X Men. We have to put Professor X versus Magneto at the top of the list. And that's what we're gonna talk about today.
We have these two oppose. You know, if opposites attract, magnetic fields attract, Opposites attract.
Then we have Professor X and Magneto from the X Men franchise, Marvel franchise. And so we have. We have to talk about this.
So before we get into kind of nuance of finding the good in each you know, I think the stereotype or the kind of default understanding is that Professor X is the hero, Magneto is the villain.
Well, over the last few decades, that's been blurred some in some of their line in terms of the choices that they've made and where they've come around and gone deeper into not just this kind of binary of hero or, or villain, but but a little bit of both in terms of their. What they're up to and how they stand for mutant rights in the Marvel universe.
So let's go around the horn and share a little bit of our history with the X Men and these two characters. And if you want to share a little bit of. Of their history and what's intriguing to you about their history, there's the.
I mean, the Wikipedia page is like 10 pages long. So if you really want to go in and get deep dive, they'll take you a week to go through it all. But, but.
And so we can't do the full history of each character, but what's our history and then what's appealing to those characters for us? Joe, let you. Let you go first.
Jill Elizabeth:
Sure. So I started reading X Men comics with my son. So he's 18 now, and I think we maybe began with the comics and graphic novels when he was 6 or 7.
And he did not discriminate between Marvel and DC. He was just throwing everything at me. And X Men was just one that I really enjoyed. And so I tried to steer him more towards that way.
And then, of course, we already had a few movies that were out, so I was really attracted to the X Men cinematic universe. Yeah, loved it. Always have, you know, continue to love it and follow those movies.
And then even before I heard it said, it was really obvious that Professor X and Magneto were based on Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. So that part of the story was really attractive to me and, like, fun to talk about those ideas and those themes with my son.
And when the, like, the movies came out with young Professor X and young Magneto, Eric Lyncher, I just remember, like, looking at. It was my daughter at the time. And I was like, does everyone else know that they're in love? This is clearly a romantic relationship.
The chemistry is so strong between these two. There's no way they're not lovers. And we kind of. That's like our ongoing joke.
And then once you see it when they're young, you can't not see it when they're older. And I love that. I mean, I probably made it up, but I do Love that part of their relationship as well.
And I have always loved thinking of the mutants rights and their fight for rights being tied into our civil rights, you know, as African Americans, but also as queer community. And I just, I love the stories.
Will Rose:
Nice, nice. Do you. Is there a particular comic or story arc that like, you're maybe the first one you picked up or the one that your son gravitated toward?
Was it the later ones? Was it:
Jill Elizabeth:
Well, his attention is probably now on the, like the later X books where Professor X is just outright villain. When they like have the. Is it Krakoa Koa age?
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jill Elizabeth:
That like separation. I think that's what he loves the most. I probably gravitate and really enjoy the three movies where they're young, like First Class and Apocalypse.
I can't remember the other one, but that, that's. Those are my favorites.
Will Rose:
That was. We do an extra bonus question at the end of each episode and we'll reveal that later on what is going to be and then we'll. We'll talk about it.
But, but one of my questions was going to be, and, you know, which, Which Professor X or Magneto do you like better? Patrick Stewart or James McCaffrey or do you like Ian McKillen or do you like Michael Fassbender? You know, was it young or old?
You know, do you want, you know, your, your Star Trek captain or Gandalf? Which one's your favorite kind? But yeah, so the young, the young Magneto, Professor X were ones that, that, that they grabbed you. That's good.
Jill Elizabeth:
Absolutely.
Will Rose:
Cool. Andy, you and I have discussed X Men before, and we'll probably do it in the future as well. But, you know, brief synopsis.
What captured you with the X Men and then in terms of these characters particular, was it that stood out for you?
Andy Walsh:
Sure.
Apologies to listeners who've heard this before and to Will, but since Jill and I are getting to know each other, I'll go into a little bit of detail. So my.
Will Rose:
You're always somebody's first issue, even comic books, you know. That's right. That's why they put a synopsis on the front page. You never know who's picking it up first.
Andy Walsh:
Exactly. So my journey with the X Men started with the X, with the Marvel trading cards in the early 90s. I was a baseball card collector. There was a store.
There's a whole story that just Sold collectible cards at the time, which is unfathomable in the present era.
But so they, they branched out into Marvel trading cards, started getting those, got into just, you know, so I just learned all the characters and all their powers and things just from reading the backs of these trading cards. Then the cartoon came out.
Started watching the X Men cartoon and then my friend in junior high said, hey, you might actually want to read some of these comic books that all this is based on. And so I.
My first issue that I bought and read was X Men Number 4, the Jim Lee relaunch, which I've only later discovered was the very first non Chris Claremont issue of X men after the 17 year Claremont era. It wasn't intentional, it just happened to be.
Will Rose:
That was what a good jumping on point. You jumped right on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy Walsh:
So yeah, Claremont had written the first three issues of that X Men adjective list, X Men relaunch there, and then decided to move on to other places. That was. Yeah, that was the first post climate issue. It's a Magneto is dead issue. He just died in those first issues one to three.
So it was a while before I got to know Magneto. Professor X is obviously around. And yeah, I was kind of hooked ever since, you know, I've kind of waxed away in a little bit. But I had.
I went through at one point, made a project of reading every published issue of X Men, at least the ones that are in continuity. There may be some like Pizza Hut tie ins or something like that that I haven't read. But, you know, oh, Andy, you're not.
Will Rose:
A real geek until you read the Pizza Hut tie ins.
Andy Walsh:
Fair enough.
Will Rose:
Fair enough. That's a lot of books. That's thousands of books. Thousands.
Andy Walsh:
You're telling me. Wow. So, yeah, big fan. Trying to think professor had seen the movies, seen the cartoons, got to watch the X Men 97 reboot with my son. That was fun.
And yeah, professor, yeah, I will admit that Professor X and Magneto are not the characters that I most gravitated towards. Probably my favorite Professor X story is the one.
The issue right after the Executioner's Song, which was the big crossover of like 93 or 94 or something around there where Professor X temporarily has his ability to walk restored and he spends the issue rollerblading with Jubilee before, you know, and by the end of the issue he's lost the ability to walk again. And Jubilee helps him back to his chair and it's just a lovely quiet issue of the two of them getting to know each Other.
They, you know, at that point, Jubilee was relatively new to the team. She hadn't gotten to hang out with Professor X much, and so they just sort of bonded. And, you know, it's a really humanizing.
Look at this guy who is typically portrayed as a stern, authoritarian figure who is more about the ideology than any kind of personal relationships.
Jill Elizabeth:
Is he a clone in that episode or that.
Andy Walsh:
Oh, that's a great question.
Yes, but not because of anything that happens in that particular issue or story, but that Professor X is a clone going all the way back to the Brood saga. That's the second iteration of Professor X.
And, yeah, I mean, who knows what version of Professor X went on now after all the resurrection in Krakoa and so forth. But, yeah, how did he get his ability to walk? I'm not remembering exactly.
It had something to do with the shenanigans of Cable and Strife in Executioner Song, but I don't remember all the details.
Jill Elizabeth:
Yeah, I just remember that part because I remember asking my son, why can he walk? And he's like, oh, he's a clone. That's why.
Will Rose:
It's fine. His comics. He'll. He'll. He'll be in a chair again, he'll be out again, he'll be in a chair again, he'll be out again. It'll happen. That.
Yeah, that's good. I mean, I think you're. You're.
m, the original five, and the:
1965. Around there, you know, they were hero. And bill, there's this binary 60s binary between to and. Yes, they're mutants. They are.
They are genetically connected to their superpower ability and mutants. And most of the world fears them and sees them as other.
And so Professor X is seen as the one who's fighting for mutant rights, but in a way that's kind of pacifist or defending humans or wanted to show them how good they can be. Magneto comes from there is like, nope, we're homo superior. We're better. Where. I'm just hurrying along the evolutionary scale.
So let's just get to it. We're. We're the better ones and. And. And going to act out it in a way that gives humans reason to. To fear them.
But as the decades go on and their Stories get told, their backstories, alternate timelines, different creators play around with, with their origin story. So you see the more of the nuance between the two. They're not just hero or villain that they, they.
It's really the choices they make in terms of what they're doing around there. So that's why people, you know, and I think people are now seeing civil rights that way too. In terms of Martin Luther King and, and Malcol.
We talked about this. Virtual is like James Cone's work. Talking about thinking, putting both Martin Luther King Jr. And Malcolm X side by side.
And how, how can we listen to both their voices and what they're saying with each other?
But, but for me, I, I grew up on X Men comics that my first love in comic books were the X Men and going to the spinner rack and, and the grocery stores and the, in the gas stations and picking up these comics. And so I, I was right on board with, in the 80s, right. Right after Jean Grey passed away. So there was death and, and what was going on.
And I really like the teams of the, the brotherhood of, of Evil Mutants with Mystique was leading that group, not necessarily Magneto. So I loved Mystique.
I loved this group of X Men that were, you know, more edgy and they were the bad guys and you had X Men against them and they, they're disagreeing in terms of philosophy about how they live out their mutant lives in the world. But you have like, yeah, the original team, all new, all different in the 70s.
You have agitus in:
But then you have the Krakoan age, and then you even have like the new X Men with Grant Morrison that you have these eras and decades where they're portraying these, these superheroes and mutants who are seen from humanity through this lens of, of the marginalized or the other to be feared.
And both Professor X and Magneto have their ways of, of with that question how they live in this world as a group of people who are feared from those who are not like them. And so, Joe, how would you pit. If we were going to pit these to each other, you know, or, and even nuance it a little bit?
You know, I do have friends of mine who are comic book fans that say they have a hard time with X Men because they just don't. There's so Much history. We just. Even our little side tangent about wasn't he a clone? Was he not? You know, it's very confused.
There's a lot of characters, there's a lot of new. It's like, man, how do you. You like, jump in. It's also confusing. There's a long history there. How do I get into this?
back into comics in the early:
If you don't understand, there's a learning curve. Same way, like people coming to church. You don't understand everything that's happening in church right now. Just hop in. We'll help you along.
You know, when to stand, when to sit, what season we're in, what part of the Bible we're in. You'll. You'll catch on. So I. That's what I say with X Men fans. Just hop on and go.
Now they don't help it when they relaunch, reboot with like 12 different number ones. We'll talk about. That's a whole different one, right, Andy? But the. But in terms of.
If you're gonna look at these two under a microscope, what, what are some similarities and difference between the two that, that we want our, our listeners to know, though.
Jill Elizabeth:
So I really think for Professor X and for Magneto, they love their people, right? They both love mutants, and ultimately they both want freedom and they want their mutants to be, you know, their.
Their people to be able to live, you know, without oppression. They just come at it from like, really different angles.
And of course, there's like an evolution where they do at some point, I feel like kind flip flop. But for Professor X, his goal is to have humans and mutants live together in harmony. And I think he's very arrogant.
I think he's very selfish in that like anything, any means to accomplish that ends are worth it to him.
And I see him in the movies, specifically repeatedly putting mutants, especially young mutants who trust him, in danger for the sake of reaching that goal. Like, he's trying to appeal to the best of humanity in a way that I just think is really selfish.
I don't actually think he's serving the ends that he eventually wants.
And then for Magneto, having such a deep love of the mutants and seeing the absolute worst of humanity because he was a child during the Holocaust, watched the his children be murdered or not his children, his parents be murdered by the Nazi regime and understanding the. The worst of humanity and what they are capable of. He also wants freedom from the mutants or for the mutants, but wants it by separating. And at some.
In some timelines he wants to dominate the human race.
Andy Walsh:
Right.
Jill Elizabeth:
But I don't see him as the villain actually in any of the movies. I rarely see him as the villain and he always comes around and he.
I think they both just have such a deep love for their community and desperately want freedom and liberation and joy for their community and just can't quite figure out how to get to it and how to shake free of human oppression.
Will Rose:
I think, I think that's important.
I think, you know, if we're doing the exercise of finding the good to find not just what their motives or means by which they're doing things, but what's behind it.
Andy Walsh:
It.
Will Rose:
What's the intent behind it. And maybe there's some common ground there.
And I think you see that in the comics whenever they team up or even some of the movies, they can see each other eye to eye and go we both have deep love for our kind now how do we live in this world together with those who aren't like us?
And so the tools and the means by which they do that is really what is striking the thought experiment or the sandbox in which we determine hero or villain, good or evil, good or bad. And how do find the good and the. I think that's, that's it. They both love their people is how they do it.
And I think you're right with Professor X. I think you know, yeah, he creates this school for gifted mutants, gifted youngsters, right. He's, he comes from a wealthy family, he has a mansion, he inherits the mansion.
He creates a school and eventually he trains them so they can use their powers for good and put out the world. But you know, some of. He's putting teenagers out there on the line out there in the world against, against these things, how they defend it.
And then eventually creators will come about. There's, there's some. He has. His superp is telepathy, right. His mind, mind control or whatever.
And so how is he using that and the trust or distrust that he had his students have with him about are you playing with my mind? Is this me? Is this you? They, they play around with that some.
Jill Elizabeth:
And, and he really abuses that power. I mean when things don't go right and mutants die, he just erases everyone's memory. That's. That's super messed up.
Will Rose:
Andy, shed some light here where. How do you see this? You've had a long history with these guys and these teams. How do you see their particular ways of doing things?
But also maybe some common ground there too.
Andy Walsh:
Yeah, I mean, of course, as you said, it's been interpreted and reinterpreted so many different times and ways over the 60 plus years of publication history. Right.
You know, some of the things that stand out to me, you know, that I think are notable is how long Professor X spent lying about the fact that he himself was a mutant. Right.
I think it, I believe it was that, that same Executioner song crossover in the, in the early 90s was when Professor X finally is outed to the world or decides to reveal himself to the world as a mutant. So for 30 some odd years on the page age, he was pretending to be just a normal guy who ran a normal school but advocated for mutant rights.
And his association with the team known as the X Men was kind of hidden and, or nebulous. And then I think it's an.
I think it's another 10 years before in the Grant Morrison run where the school is also revealed to be a training place for mutants and a safe haven for mutants. The connection between the X Men and the school, I believe it took that long to get to.
So that's an interesting wrinkle that doesn't map well onto the Malcolm X Martin Luther King dynamic of here. You have Professor X who just is outright acting like he's not a mutant for more than half, for roughly half of his publication history.
And yet, you know, there are also plenty of, you know, he, he has for that first kind of 30, 40 years, I think, thanks no small part to the cartoon, kind of has that image of the kindly nice guy who, you know, just wants good things and wants everybody to get along. And, you know, it's easy to excuse some of the, some of the odd things that wouldn't, wouldn't make sense in the real world. Right.
You know, having, having sending teenagers out as your paramilitary strike force, that's just a, you know, a genre trope. Right. It's not like, it's not like it's.
That's supposed to really make sense or, you know, when they came up with that in the 60s, it's not like anybody really intended for that to be a commentary on anything. It was just that's what you do in superhero comics, you know. So there, there were, there were some interesting tensions there.
And then obviously, as you pointed out, right over the past 20 years, 25 years, people really interrogated what was Professor X doing invented what I think Jill was just alluding to there, the deadly Genesis story in which a whole team is created in between the first team and the famous second Genesis giant Zeiss Ectuma number one team that died and was covered up. I'm a big fan of the character Legion, who is Professor X's son.
And so it's hard not to view Professor X through the lens of, of largely absentee father. Right. And again, that's one of those stories where, you know, he wasn't the father of Legion for all those years. Right.
And so that's why he doesn't, that's why there's no reference to Legion, because Legion hadn't been invented and that wasn't part of X's story. But now in hindsight, you go, well, wait a minute, this guy was the father for all those years and, and you know, never. That never came up.
And he never talked about it, he never visited. Right. So, you know, you have to deal with that.
So there's all these things that are kind of quirks of how these things get published and how these things accrete over time that I think have dragged Professor X down in a way that makes him harder and harder to accept as a, as a straight ahead hero or icon.
Whereas Magneto out of the gate was a Silver Age villain of the highest order, just declaiming and scheming and, and plotting to overthrow all of mankind.
And so he gets to soften over the years as we investigate, well, what does it mean to be the survivor of so much trauma as Jill enumerated all the things that he's experienced? And what does it mean to be an advocate for the oppressed? And what, what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate when people won't listen to.
How do you get people to even come to the bargain table or the negotiation table? Right. If there's nobody even to negotiate with sometimes maybe you feel like you have to take these more drastic measures.
You can see, I think it was Al Ewing.
The resurrection of Magneto kind of interrogates some of those that dichotomy and tries to explain in a consistent way why Magneto was choosing to act the way that he did in the Silver Age 60s comics and how that's consistent with the Magneto the past 30 years, who more often than not, I think is on the side of the X Men. Right. He's a member of an X Men roster of one sort or another.
I think more Often than not in the past 20 years, probably again going back to Grant Morrison, although to what extent anything was or wasn't Magneto or Xorn in the Grant Morrison and is a whole other conversation.
Will Rose:
No, they rebooted that fast. Yeah.
Andy Walsh:
They kind of started out right as these archetypal opposites and I think have been converging and maybe have crossed in terms of people's estimations just because of the way that comics get written and published and the way that modern readers they're writing comics now for people like you and I who have been reading them for the past 20, 30, 40 years and want to interrogate disease.
They're not really writing X Men comics for teenagers who are just new to them and will read them for three years and then hop off and get replaced by another crop of teenagers who are fresh to it, which is kind of the model for the first 20 some odd years right now.
Now you have to tell stories that make sense to people who have been reading them for the past 40 years and who have adult sensibilities and adult understanding of nuance months and psychology and all those kinds of things.
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, they've moved.
I mean the X Men we're seeing as kind of like okay, this is the, the civil rights movement of, of the 60s and into the 70s.
But now I think in here our present context and thinking about queer issues and who are the marginalized and who are seen as other or, or feared kind of leaned in that way way too. I and it is interesting that yeah, out of the gate Professor X the hero Magneto the vill time went on.
Magneto's become more sympathy, become more sympathetic, become the leader, been more understanding of things and perfection has gone more dark or you've revealed more secrets. It is interesting to me that like yeah, he's Professor X is the professor or the father figure.
And there is that dilemma of what do you tell your children and when are they old enough to know some of your own secrets or your experiences? And so yeah, you want to keep some of those things close and you don't want to show your hand. You don't want to share all your secrets.
Like when my kids were little, I'm not going to share everything I did when I was a teenager, but later on to relate or to share cautionary tale or to be just a parent or teacher or coach, you share a little bit about more your lives.
But yeah, there's times when Professor Wright's like, why did you keep that a secret that his own Students mistrusted him because they withheld that information. It's like, this is a secret. We should have known these things.
He thought he was being protective or maybe overprotective of his students and children, but that loss of trust has been there over the years.
And then I guess it was around issue 200 when you have that famous cover of Magneto kind of on trial and then he end up becoming a leader or a friend of X Men. Then they have a relaunch in 91 and he's the villain again. They get back to the roots.
But I do think the Krakoa age is interesting with Hickman and his run of seeing this kind of separate, secluded, their own nation, and Professor X and Magneto working together as a team with Moira, who. That was a whole reaction retcon in terms of her mutability of being able to live life over again and learn from her life.
It's just an incredible way to think through, through those things.
Joe, anything there that Andy said that sparked some ideas in terms of, yeah, this, this, this duo together, their relationship with each other and can we see the good in the other?
Jill Elizabeth:
Yeah, I was thinking about truth and deception. And for Magneto, for all of his faults, is so true and so authentic. Right. He's impetuous, he's hot headed, he feels rage and anger and then he.
And unfortunately people die.
Will Rose:
Yeah, right.
Jill Elizabeth:
And then he's like, oh, maybe that was too far and, and comes back. But he is ultimately, like super protective of the mutants. Where Professor X we see is deceptive.
Like if, you know, his whole first decade, like you said, was deception, was trying to keep his identity secret, keep the identity of the student secret and what they were doing and what their mission was. And I think ultimately that's why I gravitate towards Magneto, that even with its flaws, it's true. And what's true feels right to me.
Will Rose:
There you go. Yeah. There's a question Andy sparked for me like that. When. When do you come out and share your identity with. With others? And when is that?
When trust people enough, maybe Professor X, I don't trust humanity to not see me as one of theirs if I reveal myself to them. I think, Jill, as people of color, you know, you can't hide your skin color, right? You are who you are when you walk in a room.
How people see or perceive you and what they automatically label you are, aren't. If you're a mutant, you can, you can hide that. When do you reveal that someone who is queer or identifies that way. When do they.
When they trust you enough to share their true selves or who they are and come out to you. I think some of that dynamic is there in the mutants.
When their mutant ability, when they hit teenage land and their mutant ability actualizes and animates into the world. And then how do they learn to control it in the school, in community with people like them?
But then when do they reveal to the world or even their parents or their friends, and what will they think of them? Is a big part of the X Men story that I think relates to our own world. And then Professor X Men made. Made. Made some good decisions around. But then.
Then there's some. Some bad ones.
There's ones of like, maybe you should have been a little bit more honest with your students and with the world when it comes comes to that, Magnito is like, yep, this is who I am. Yep. Sorry. And if you're scared of me. Yep. You probably should be because of what I witnessed.
My own family tradition that and what happened in the Holocaust. I don't. I never again. That's not going to happen again kind of thing. Which is part of that story.
Jill Elizabeth:
Yep. And while people of color don't have the option to take off our skin, we can play respectability politics. And we. And we see that, and we see people.
Well, that's all I'll say about that.
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Are either of you familiar with the graphic novel God Loves Man Kills? Have you read that one from Chris Claremont? No, and he's read it. I.
Is a graphic novel from the 80s. As a kid reading. Did some. Sorry, my lights just kind of the. The. It had a profound impact on you.
Jill Elizabeth:
It went.
Will Rose:
It went a little harder with killing and violence and the division of mutants and violence. And you have Professor X and Magneto wrestling with a question on different sides. But really the main villain is. Is this.
Is this politician who really wants to oppress mutants. And. Andy, remember the name of the politician. He's pretty. What was the politician's name?
Andy Walsh:
William Stryker. William Striker reimagined as a.
Jill Elizabeth:
He becomes a politician.
Will Rose:
Well, politician. And the original thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy Walsh:
Right. In the. In the films, he's. He's got a different backstory and so forth, but, yeah, it's the same name.
Will Rose:
Same name, and it's an incredible graphic novel. The. I forget the artist's name, but it is Chris Claremont, who they are in the height of the 80s, but it's a standalone issue.
I mean, just there's this image of like, you know, Stryker pointed a Nightcrawler and going really? That's who you want to be as like normal or human or whatever. And Nightcrawler is the most religious, more heartfelt than.
Than any of the mutants, even though he looks like a demon, but he's pointing him like that's who you want to have equal rights with you. I mean, it's just a powerful, powerful story. So I do recommend that to our folks out there.
If you don't feel like you have to go to the comic store and buy 12 different graphic novels or different comic books on the shelf because there's so many X titles. But if you want to get a good synopsis of the dilemma. Mutinism, the dilemma of. Of mutant rights and Professor X Magneto, I think.
I think that graphic novel kind of. Kind of hones in on that pretty well. And it's not like they necessarily point to Professor X or.
I mean, they're as right or wrong, but they're both kind of on the same team. Andy am I remember that right. When it comes to their. Their relationship in that book.
Andy Walsh:
Right. It is a little tough because the second X Men movie does adapt some elements of that story, and so it's a little bit hard to disentangle the two.
And without having visited either one recently, I think there is an element in that story, in the graphic novel of contrasting how Magneto and Professor X respond to the Stryker figure, who is also. I mean, he's Reverend William Stryker. He's not just a politician.
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah. You got a faith leader.
Andy Walsh:
And so there's all kinds of critique of the sort of earlier days of the religious right and. And religious television pundits that were becoming a thing in the 80s. But. Yeah, so you do see.
I believe you're right that you see both how Professor X and Magneto sort of respond to that.
And there is some element of having to engage with each other's perspectives or approaches to rescuing the characters that get caught up by Stryker and his. His allies.
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, the real. The real villain and we won't find the good in is. Is bigotry. And I think in that graphic novel, you see kind of the.
The far religious right fundamentalism gone. Gone so far that. That they're gonna other the other person. I think that when X Men are done. Right. Yeah, it's fun. They have mutant powers.
Think about what would I do if I had mutant powers and how would it do good in the world and those things. But then.
But then it really leans into like, what is it, what does it mean to be not seen as, or to be seen as less than human or less than, or feared because of who you are.
And so when we're finding the good in all these things, we can find good in Professor X and Magneto, but when it comes to bigotry, fundamentalism, that others, other person with, there's no good in that. There's no room for that.
All right, so before we get to the extra question or I think thinking a little deeper and before we get that there's, I, what do you guys think in terms of like the recognition of diversity of gifts?
What I think about what I, I love in comics, the team books, and I love how they use their different gifts similar to, to Paul and his image of the body working together. And why would the foot say to the hand? I, I, that goes to my head all the time.
When it comes to these team books with Avengers or Justice League and, but definitely the, the Mutants, there's a lot of drama when it comes to relationships and, and the relations to their parents, relationship to the school students and, and even the villains and who's on whose side. There's all that stuff. But, but I think there's something there when it talks about like our gifts that we have for, for the world.
Jill has different gifts than me, I have different gifts than Andy, and he has different gifts than us. How does that work together?
Is there something there in terms of that Professor X or Magneto, they both have teams, they have followers, they, they have people that live with them either on an asteroid or a mansion. What, what comes to mind with that Jill, when he talks about these diversity of gifts and how we navigate the world?
Jill Elizabeth:
Yeah, I mean it's the beauty of the, of these comics.
I think it's why so many people love X Men is because we get to see the beauty in diversity because the way the teams work together and we see like with the humans that are in the universe that are not trying to kill the mutants and with the mutants, like, everybody wants to fall in love. Love. Everybody wants to be happy.
We want to send our kids to bed with full bellies, you know, like, and, and I, I love the embracing of diversity in this comic series. I think that's, we have so much to take away from that. I need a minute to process, to think about the rest of that thought.
So Andy, if you want to go ahead and answer.
Will Rose:
Yeah, for Andy. Sure.
Andy Walsh:
Yeah. You know, I think the, the, that has been a long standing appeal of the X Men is the, the team up move.
Seeing how these different abilities complement each other. Right. And the way that you can do more together by combining these things than, than anybody can accomplish individually.
And you know, they really underline that in the Krakoa era with the concept of mutant circuits. Right.
These groups of people that can accomplish things like resurrecting fallen comrades and traveling beyond the edges of the observable universe to mine Mysterium.
All kinds of impressive things that they do with these mutant circuits as well as some more banal things like variations on the fastball special and so forth. And yeah, and that's always been a big appeal for me in the comics is those team up moves and, and something that we've seen glimpses of on screen.
Something the comics, the cartoons rather, I think have done better than the live action films because of the logistical and financial challenges. But that's something I'm always hoping that the next iteration of X Men live action adaptation will embrace.
Is that kind of those team up moves, those synergies that come from the characters working together. There's some cool bits, probably the days of future past film.
There's some sequences in that that probably maybe have the best examples in the live action realm.
But yeah, I think that's really cool to see how people's different abilities can complement each other and also the creativity in coming of well, I can do X and you can do Y.
Let's not just think about what's X +Y, but how do you combine these things in ways that are unusual or unexpected or can do things that a whole new level of ability or accomplishment.
Will Rose:
Yeah.
And I think when Professor X and Magneto are done well, they're seen as coaches, as teachers, as leaders of a team and empowering their students and followers to do that. Not controlling, not keeping sound, not controlling their mind or controlling their whatever, but like, like helping them become who they.
They are meant to be. That's what leaders, that's what coaches do. That's what hopefully parents do, leaders in, in your churches and communities of faith.
You're empowering others to become the best that they can be. And so when they are doing their best in the comics, that's, that's how I see them as, as, as those leaders.
I'll be interested to see how they're portrayed in this next iteration of the MCU and what actors they choose. We've seen some of this in the Deadpool stuff and Wolverine stuff and, and bring it over to the MCU who will show up in Doomsday What?
How will they do their own mutant movie when it comes to that? I will be how they embrace or distance themselves from the Fox movies. But yeah, Jill, other. Other thoughts.
Jill Elizabeth:
Yeah, I just love what both of you said.
And because they are able to team up and work so well together, it encourages each individual to really embrace their own gifts and to live authentically and realize that what they have to contribute is acceptance. Where what we get from, like, fundamental list organizations is like, conform, everybody. Do the same thing. Be the same.
That's the only way to be accepted and to be loved is to put yourself aside and become like us in the mutant world is the exact opposite. Embrace exactly who you're meant to be and figure out how you can fit in for the, like, flourishing of all of us.
Will Rose:
Yes. Yeah, that's good. I like that. I like that. Well, folks, in this episode, we didn't necessarily go toe to toe. We didn't have a big battle debate.
We saw their flaws and we saw the good in each of these characters, some more than others. But really, like, we're all on the same team on systemic ecology.
And all of you out there, no matter what you're geeking out on, whatever what you're doing, you're part of our team. You have gifts. And we hope that you'll continue to keep geeking out with us in the days ahead.
And I guarantee you, if you don't know where to start with X Men comics, you can contact Jill, contact Annie, contact me, or just ask your local comic store, because probably in a few months they're going to reboot one of the X Men titles to a number one and you can just hop on there and they'll keep running with it. So don't worry if you don't know where to jump on. If it's too intimidating, there will be a reboot at some point. Yep.
So we have an extra question that we're going to do, and I'm very curious about Jill and Andy.
If they were to pick any mutant power other than Professor X and Magneto's powers, what would they pick to contribute to this team of Mary mutants in the world? So hop on over to Patreon. You can just join up for $3 and. Or more. Or more. We have T shirts for our primary political. All kinds of new.
New merch out there that, that we love for you to have to come geek out with us and. And finding the good. So yeah, you could, you could show that you're a fan out there in the world with.
With some of our merch and by being buying a bit, being a Patreon. So hop on over there and we'll let you know what mutability we want into the world. And who knows? I may wake up tomorrow morning and may obtain it.
We'll see. We'll see what happens. So thanks, y'. All, thanks for listening and share, share the faith, share the geek.
