Christian Ashley and Jill Elizabeth dive into the Marvel Universe to spotlight their top three comic icons in this episode of Systematic Geekology's Icons series. They explore the unique traits and characteristics that make these heroes stand out and which qualities they aspire to emulate. Christian kicks things off with a heartfelt tribute to Spider-Man, the embodiment of personal responsibility, while Jill takes a moment to highlight the nobility of Black Panther and the cunning brilliance of Dr. Doom. The conversation flows from personal anecdotes to broader reflections on what these icons teach us about resilience, tenacity, and the complexities of heroism. As they banter back and forth, their insights reveal not just their love for these characters but also a deeper understanding of the values we can all strive to embody in our own lives. Tune in for a laid-back yet thoughtful exploration of what it truly means to be a comic book icon in today's world.

A lively debate unfolds as the hosts dive deep into the pantheon of Marvel Comics, seeking to identify their top three comic icons. Both Christian Ashley and Jill Elizabeth explore their personal connections to these characters, all while maintaining a lighthearted banter that reveals their shared love for the Marvel universe. As Jill passionately champions Muhammad Ali as her personal icon, she emphasizes the importance of standing firm in one’s beliefs, a theme that resonates throughout the episode. Both hosts delve into which characters embody the spirit of heroism, showcasing the complexity and depth of their choices. Jill’s choice of Dr. Doom sparks a spirited discussion on villainy and morality, shedding light on the intricate character development that has made Marvel Comics a cultural cornerstone. Christian's choice of Ben Grimm explores the importance of a different kind of intelligence and a tenacity that anyone could admire. By the episode's end, listeners are left with a sense of nostalgia and a deeper appreciation for the characters that have shaped their childhoods and continue to inspire them today.

Takeaways:

1. Christian and Jill dive deep into their personal histories with Marvel Comics, revealing how these iconic characters have shaped their lives over the years.
2. The duo highlights three Marvel icons: Dr. Doom, Black Panther, and Spider-Man, discussing the complex traits they admire and aspire to emulate in their own lives.
3. Jill passionately argues for the cultural impact of Black Panther, emphasizing its groundbreaking representation and influence on global cinema during its release.
4. Christian shares an emotional connection to Spider-Man, discussing how the character embodies the struggles of being a teenager while carrying immense responsibility on his shoulders.

.

Be sure to check out our merch, find extra content, and become an official member of Systematic Geekology on our website:

https://systematic-geekology-shop.fourthwall.com/

.

Listen to all of our Comicbook Icons series:

https://feeds.captivate.fm/systematic-geekology/comicbook-icons/

.

Check out our other Marvel content:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/fb519d38-2d9b-4f82-b041-81b81613543c

.

Listen to every episode with Jill:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/93b2d7c5-1f3a-4fdb-8d87-350f6ca167b9

.

Check out all of Christian's episodes:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/ebf4b064-0672-47dd-b5a3-0fff5f11b54c

Mentioned in this episode:

Systematic Geekology

Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.

Anazao Ministries Podcasts - AMP Network

Check out other shows like this on our podcast network! https://anazao-ministries.captivate.fm/

Donate to our Show / Check Out Free Extras

Check out our show on Fourthwall to donate to the podcast or get free extra content!

SG on Fourthwall

Anazao Podcast Network

Our show is part of the Anazao Podcast Network and you can find other great shows like ours by checking out the whole network with this link!

Anazao Podcast Network

We think, are the top three comic icons of Marvel. This is systematic ecology. We are the priests and geeks.

We're going to be asking this question a lot more on today's episode where we're going to cover the history of Marvel comics a little bit, our personal history of some of this, the characters we really love and engage with. And I say we because it's not just me. Christian, Ashley, I'm also joined. For the first time I've been able to work with her. Jill, Elizabeth is here.

Jill, in light of that, can you think of someone for our icon series? We do things a little differently. Not the geeking out stuff we share. Like, one person that we personally look up to as an icon.

Yeah. So in my house, there wasn't a whole lot of people that I wanted my children to, like, look up to. You know, there's like, Jesus. That was the big one.

And then aside from that, there weren't a lot of men that I wanted to say, like, go look at what this person does. But I thought, there's one exception, and it's Muhammad Ali. He's probably my personal icon.

And when I think about raising my kids, they're now like teenagers telling them, look to this person who stood up for what he believed in in the face of extreme unpopularity, and he stood by it. And he was very much about service, public service and volunteering and giving back, and those are the things that are important to me.

So he's probably my number one icon.

Okay. Yeah, That's a great pick. Yeah, a great.

I mean, just player of the game to begin with in boxing, but also, like, as you mentioned, like, stuck by his convictions. You can agree or disagree with him, but you can't say that he wasn't, like, who he said he was going to be.

Absolutely super authentic.

Yeah. I'm going to go in a wildly different direction, and I may have used this last year. I can't remember. But you know what? Memory is what it is.

But I'm going to pick Steve Irwin, the Crocodile Hunter. When I was growing up, I would always watch it on Animal Planet.

And as someone who loves animals, as always, at one point in time, thought he was going to be a marine biologist. Like, seeing Steve, like, interact with these wild creatures that are very foreign to me living in America.

And yet, at the same time, he had, like, a strength, but also, like, this humbleness and, like, softness to him is like, hey, you know, these creatures are magnificent. And, like, this is why, like, I'm showing you the jaws of this Crocodile, like.

But you should really appreciate the fact that this creature is what it is. So, like, let's. Let's protect it. Let's look after them. That's something, you know, Genesis all the way back. That's something we're told to do.

And that's something that's huge to me, something that I do my best not to leave as much waste behind. Or if I leave my soda cans, which I used to before the pre diabetes came into my life, I'd always cut them up.

You know, thinking of Steve and someone like that you can look up to and make you make a change. I just called it a very positive person.

I love that pick. He is an icon. I love that.

All right, so as mentioned earlier, we are going to be in Marvel Comics today picking the characters that we personally find iconic. Remember that first part. And then secondly, we're going to be saying, like, what would the culture around us say are the top three Marvel characters?

So, Jill, could you go ahead and share your history with Marvel, with movies, comics, tv, what have you?

Yeah, my history with Marvel really comes from my son.

He's 19 now, and when he was a little guy in like Montessori preschool and he was learning to read, he gravitated towards the like, graphic novels that were written for kids. Loved that. That actually that's the only way we could get him to read is if it was something about Spider man or Batman, the Justice League.

Like, he just loved that. And Marvel were the ones I liked the most. And then as he progressed and got higher reading, I just moved up with him.

And I figured if I wanted to have anything to talk to my son about, I had to immerse myself in the world he was in. And I just fell in love. Like, I loved the Marvel comic books and then of course, the MCU came out when they were.

So I have kids that are like the same age when they were in kindergarten or first grade. The first Iron man came out and then I was hooked in the mcu and we would see all the movies on opening day and we just love it.

Like, it is the thing that, like, our whole family is all in on.

I love that I tease my mom all the time because, you know, I grew up a superhero kid and my dad's a huge geek. And my mom right now also watches other people's children.

So when I'm with her, I get to hang out with them and like, she will recognize Marvel character names because they watch like, you know, the Spidey and his amazing friends and stuff. Oh, you didn't do that for me. But she. She did do that for me. It's just not as much like, you know, it's way more obvious.

There would be actors, action figures, and stuff like that. And they have. And now it's all over the place compared to where it was in the 90s when I was growing up. I like that.

Getting into it because of your kids. That's a great reason. Now, as one of those kids, my dad raised me right, and he raised me in the way of the geek, because mom, that's not her thing.

You know what? She has other things that she loves. But dad, since he was a kid, same thing.

Like, grew up on these things, reading comics, watching the TV shows when they come out.

And I remember just being a little kid watching Spider man, the Animated Series, Batman, Animated Series, X Men, so on and so forth, and, like, getting to know these characters on a visual way on the screen, and then eventually growing up with him, like, actually reading the comics these stories were based off of. So I'd read, you know, the Amazing Spider Man, I'd read, you know, the Teen Titans, so on and so forth, because he'd been collecting them for years.

And he actually. He was a basketball coach. Well, he still is, but he was a teacher at that time, too.

And he had a whole separate room, a storage space, where he kept his comics and memorabilia there on school grounds, because, you know, he just kind of did what he wanted. And now, unfortunately, now that he's retired, he's had to take up the entire garage for himself.

And let's just say my inheritance looks pretty large.

I get it. I'm sure your mom really loves that local garage. Is comic books.

Your comic books, action figures, board games, all this stuff. And now he's gotten to thrifting, too. So it's gotten even worse with all the junk. I say junk. It's not junk if someone's willing to buy it, I guess.

Right?

There you go. So that's our personal history with Marvel as well.

So, Jill, why don't you go ahead and start us off with your number three pick for your personal, iconic character.

Okay, my number three pick, probably a little bit surprising, but it is Dr. Doom.

Ooh. Okay.

Go for it. Yeah. I think when you think of a comic book character, you can't take it out of context and you can't divorce it from the author.

And Stan Lee has said over and over again that his favorite character he ever created was Dr. Doom. So to me, he is like the Stan Lee I actually Think he's like Stan Lee's like shadow side, you know. First of all, he has this like super badass suit.

It's the coolest of any of the villains. He's got like that scar, you know, messed up face, which is really cool. But he's like brilliant.

Can outsmart like all of the smartest Marvel heroes like Tony Stark and Reed Rogers or Reed, Reed Richards, even Black Panther. Like he just has all this power, but he doesn't necessarily use brute force to win his battles. He outsmarts them.

I think that is super like iconic to Marvel and the way that they are. And it's just like that's Stanley's guy. So that's the icon.

Yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from from Stan. Like I, I, he definitely pattern pits of himself on J. Jonah Jameson to an extent.

But like on the more villainous side of things, it's definitely Doom. And you think, what a stupid name, Tony. Dr. Doom. That's such comics. Well, you know, it is, it is pure comics. And it's wonderful.

This guy like wearing this green cape, armored suit all over his body and then you learn why because like he, he got a little too big for his britches and started doing things he wasn't supposed to and his face got scarred as a result. Now he can't let anyone see like the afflic on his face because that was wound his pride even more.

His rivalry with Reed Richards is like he can't ever admit that he's wrong because of course Doom wills. Doom says that he's going to do it. Doom always talks in the third person, you know, because that's just who he is.

He's a bombastic guy who has taken over an entire country. But that's not good enough for him. He's got to prove he's better than Richards and he's got to take over the entire world. I love him.

It's a solid, solid pick. He's definitely a mentoring school.

Cool. I just want to say one more thing too. He has never been done right in the movies.

Gosh, yes.

And so I'm super excited about the new Avengers and that Robert Downey Jr. Is playing him. Like I got hope that the world now is going to like see Dr. Doom for who he is.

Speaking of who he is, like what characteristics would you say that we should like emulate that he does or like excise take out from ourselves when it.

Comes to doing one of the. Yeah, one of the things that Stan Lee says is like the best villains are the ones who are actually the heroes of their own story. So it's that.

It's almost that thing that I was talking about earlier with Muhammad Ali. Not that he's a villain, but, like, that. Like, yes, I'm gonna do what I believe is right because it's right.

Like, and even if everyone else disagrees, sometimes that's the path you have to take.

What aspects you say we should excise from ourselves that come from Doom.

Like, we're not gods, so let's not behave as gods.

That's perfect. Yeah. Doom is one of those great characters because of the complexity of who he is.

Because, like, he does think he's always right, and there are times when he is right, and he's always seeking to better himself, and he takes it into very poor ways later on, like, you know, trying to steal, like, the powers of the beyonder or, like, trying to become a God. But at the end of the day, isn't that something we're supposed to do? Aren't we supposed to be better than the person we were yesterday?

Like, working towards something so that we don't make the same mistakes of the past? And, like, Doom would never make the same mistakes that he did as a younger man.

He wouldn't call them mistakes because everything led to who he is today. But that would be something we'd have to excise. It's like that pride and arrogance of man. I've never once made a wrong decision.

Everything I did was the right one. Everything was calculated along the way, and I'm very, very guilty of that at times. It's a arrogant person to say, no, no, I meant to do that.

Even though it blew up in my face, I meant to do that. And that literally happened to him?

Yep, quite literally.

All right. You have anything else you want to add about Dr. Doom before we move on?

Nope. That's my piece.

All right. Excellent choice. Mine is actually going to be my Dark horse pick for this. The other two will be fairly familiar to everyone.

And my third pick is going to be Rick Jones as my iconic Marvel character.

Rick Jones, for those uninitiated, he started off in the Incredible Hulk comics as this ragtag teenager, or as they used to say in the 60s comic, teenager every time they had to put the emphasis to hyphen in between teen and ager for some reason. I don't know why. 60s, I suppose. And he's like this layabout just hanging out with his friends in the middle of the New Mexico desert, I think.

I'm pretty sure it was New Mexico. And like, as Bruce Banner's, you know, gamma bomb is about to go off, he's one Bruce has to save. As the bomb goes off, he pushes him out of the way.

And so he's always felt this kind of guilt of like, oh, no, I accidentally helped create the Hulk. So he's been a sidekick to many heroes for years, like starting off with the Hulk, Captain America.

And there was a time when he and Captain Marvel, the original Mar? Vell, were tied in the Negative zone, where one will be in one, the other will be in the other.

They could never be at the same place at the same time. He's been working with the Avengers before. More recently. Well, actually most recently, he's gained a symbiote because Marvel.

But before that, he had also become a Hulk also because Marvel. The house of ideas, everyone. But the thing about Rick is that he's a person who's seen it all.

And as someone who's gone through all that as just, for the most part, just an ordinary dude.

For the longest time, he himself didn't have powers, but he was still helping out with these major events and making sure that the heroes reminded, hey, this is who we're fighting for. This regular Joe right here. Yeah, he's helping us. He's seen a lot of things, but, like, he's still just a guy.

And that, that means a lot, you know, because if we were in the Marvel universe, chances are we would just be some guy, some gal. And who's protecting us or the bigger guys, let's support them in some way.

And that's one thing Rick Jones does really well, is he helps support other people. So those are things that kind of stand out to me about him now.

Characteristics about Rick, Reliable Rick is one of those people who is going to be by your side. He's going to make sure things get done.

The amount of times that he's helped get, you know, Bruce Banner out of a situation, or the time he was kind of bucky for Captain America for a little bit, or just working with the Avengers, like during this Kree Skrull war, ending up saving the day. This regular Joe, in the midst of this alien a war with the Avengers fighting in it, he's the one who helped save the day. It's pretty great.

I'd also say for him, ingenuity and resourcefulness are big because he. There's a. There's one incredible Hulk comic. Peter David wrote it. Where in the previous issue, Rick Jones was in a plane that exploded.

And we thought, oh, no, Rick is dead. And then the next issue, I'm pretty sure it's the next issue. He's like, he has a parachute on him. He's like, why'd you have a parachute on you?

We didn't even know we were going to be on the plane. He's like, well, you always have to be prepared. And you know what, that's great.

Now as far as, like, negative aspects of him like that, there is some envy in him of, you know, heroes of actually having the powers and everything. And I think that's one thing that's lost when you do give Rick powers.

Like, he becomes a bomb for a little bit, which was, you know, a Hulk based hero for a time. Now he's got the sleeper symbiote once again because Marvel and like, he can sell great stories with that. But like, it misses the point of the.

Rick is supposed to be the guy just. Just the regular dude. So that's all I have to say on him. Anything you want to add?

You weren't kidding when you said Dark Horse. Like, I had to really think about that one. I like it. And I do love that idea of just the regular Joe Schmo. Super important.

And they wouldn't have won these battles without him. Yeah, I think that's a really good pick.

All right, well, that was my third pick and Jill's third pick. Let's go to your second pick.

Okay. Number two, Black Panther. So I think when you think iconic, you have to think, okay, Marvel. Who's the first thing I think of? For me, Black Panther.

And like, when the comics came out in the 60s, I wasn't alive. I'm not that old. They came out kind of quiet. It wasn't like this great big splash. But it was the first. I think Don, I always forget his last name.

It's MC. But the creator, Don McGregor.

Oh, can't remember. Off top of my head, I know you're talking about.

But he created him because he was like fascinated with this idea of Africa being presented, but not primitive. And so it was like, like a quiet radical move. It wasn't like this great big thing.

Black Panther was not a super popular comic when it came out, but it was the first comic to have a black person as the hero. And it wasn't done as like kitsch. Like he just was super wealthy, came from this land that was really technologically advanced.

And also he was super smart, which in its own right was really radical because that wasn't being shown in pop culture, like, yes, anywhere. So as a Comic. I just think it's iconic because it's the first.

But my real, like pitch for why it is the one of the most iconic characters is what happened with the Marvel Cinematic Universe when Black Panther came on the scene, like explosion. It was the first superhero movie to gross like $700 million. It at the time was the highest grossing box office hit of a superhero movie.

And it was the first one to ever be nominated for best picture in the Academy Awards. Like things that I believe the general population and for sure even the creators of the MCU probably didn't think was possible for their universe.

And then it was the first one to be global. Like, it really proved to Marvel what we have is not just for US audiences, but we can take this worldwide super iconic.

But then the Black Panther himself. Man, what a guy.

Well, t' Challa is a solid pick. It was Leon Kirby did. Introduced him in Fantastic 452, but McGregor in Jungle Action where he was like the lead hero.

I remember my dad has many of those, so I've read them. Yeah, that's a good one because yeah, once again, as you said, like in the 60s, like, it was intentionally done by Lee and Kirby.

Truly, like, okay, we're going to make an African character. What are we going to do with that?

And we're going to actually make him this king, this respected scientist who's, you know, very intelligent and like, how he like almost beats the Fantastic Four in many respects, but, like, done for the sake of testing them and him so that they can fight against CLAW and get the revenge that he wants on that.

And the whole thing of Wakanda being this nation that over time gets built into more than what they envision into this larger nation that resisted, you know, imperialism and through the use of Vibranium and like, was very isolationist, very rarely coming out into world events. Like every now and then, I can't remember because he used to.

Dad.

Yeah, okay. The grandfather is who it is now because, you know, with, you know, time dilation and everything. Yeah.

As things go on, like him going out and helping Captain America a couple times during World War II. T' Challa has always been one of those people I really respect because of how he's a king, like, literally a king.

And yet what does he do with his time?

He looks after his people, but he also looks after the world as a member of the Avengers or on solo projects and stuff like that, because he cares, because he wants to expand Wakanda influence in a positive way rather than just saying, oh, we have in many respects, they have this huge responsibility to look at the vibranium they have. But now what do we do with that power? Very Spider man esque in certain aspects of that. So, yeah. T', Challa, great pick.

So anything about him that you think that we should emulate or excise?

Yeah, I think it's this, like, commitment to tradition, I think is something to emulate. I think he has a great responsibility to his people, to his title. I mean, you really named it when you said he does a.

He does a fantastic job of caring for his own kingdom, but then, like, takes that out to the next level to take care of the world. I think we need to think like that now. He. He's complicated and the Christopher Priest version, like, that comes out in the 90s.

Like, he really shows his complexity. And, you know, there's some moral ambiguity. There's like, he does things for the sake of revenge. I think we need to excise that out of ourselves.

It's natural. Someone hurts me, I want to hurt them back even harder. Yeah.

But I also think, like, because of the, like, mcu, like Chadwick Boseman in himself is iconic.

Yes, very much so.

And yeah, it's so intentional.

One of the great tragedies that he had to deal with, the cancer diagnosis and he wasn't able to live for as long as he should have. But, I mean, it's the fallen world we live in, unfortunately, where disease can happen to anyone. Yeah. Yeah.

For things like, we should, like, emulate about him, like, the nobility that he has, the love that he has for his people, for the people he cares about, and not even. Not even the people he cares about, like, the people he doesn't know that he works to fight for. And that's a huge part of.

Any good Avenger will have that kind of ideal.

If I'm fighting for people I don't know in the same way, like, that we fight for people that we don't know so that their lives are okay and they're taken care of as far and as well, there's a moment when Bendis was making up the Illuminati for Marvel. T' Challa was invited to join. And he said, look, I get what you're doing. It makes sense.

But at the same time, we can't be the ones to make all these decisions. And he doesn't join the Illuminati.

And that, in the end, doesn't blow up in his face as it does for pretty much everyone else, because, well, he said, well, maybe we shouldn't be the ultimate arbiters of what is right and what is wrong. Like, yeah, they do the heroic actions and they are making a statement about that. But like actually like all these things that they're trying to do.

Maybe not so much now as far as excising aspects. I mean, that does come and it's the younger t' Challa for the most part. It shows up other runs too.

A little bit of arrogance too, of thinking, well, nope, I'm right because of I am a king. I am the Black Panther. And therefore if I do and say something, that must be the right thing. And sometimes that has blown up in his face.

But for the most part, I mean, I don't know too much what else I would take away from him because he's very cold and calculating at the same time. He's also very loving to around him. So yeah. T', Challa, Black Panther, excellent pick again, Jill.

Thanks.

Anything else you want to add for them?

No, we're good. What's your number two?

All right. My number two is Aunt Petunia's favorite nephew, the ever loving blue eyed thing. I love the Thing.

If you don't know who the Thing is, you don't know who the Fantastic Four are. They are the start of Marvel without them.

I mean, yeah, we had in the 40s Captain America and the human torture and Namor and all that, but moving on to the 60s, that's the relaunch really of the Marvel Universe as a whole.

And these ragtag groups of friends and family who go into space on this reckless mission, come back with superpowers and the good looking pilot who was very proud of his looks now suddenly is this hulking orange monstrosity. And every time he looks at himself in a mirror, he's reminded that everyone else got this and this is what I look like.

And there's been multiple times throughout, you know, Dan's life where he's just down on himself because he wants to be more human. And pretty much he's the most human member of the team most of the time because of how much he wrestles with it.

You've got the great early story of this man, this monster, where he, through his nobility, actually inspires an evil scientist to repent of his ways and give him back his body. Way back early on. But. But for me, the Thing will always be.

I mean, my two favorite series really are Marvel Team up and Marvel 2 in one and spoilers for what's going to happen later on for my number one pick. And you pretty much Knew it because he's my avatar in the series anyways.

But seeing Ben Grimm interact with other Marvel superheroes shows who he is to me as someone who's always willing to work with other people. Yeah, he's a little rough around the edges. I mean, quite literally at points. But also he can be cantankerous. But he really.

If there's any person outside of, you know, Captain America and maybe even Spider man that people would be willing to work with, no questions asked, I think it would be then Grimm, because he's easy to work with once you get to know him. And yet it'll be, you know, this classic, you know, let's you and him fight moments.

But they'll get over it and they'll become friends at the end of it. Like to the point where, you know, when the Sandman was becoming a little more reformed. It wasn't Spider man who did that.

It was Ben Grimm working with him that actually led him to the point where Sandman became a reserve avenger until, you know, comics happened and retcons and all that madness. But here's what it is. But to me, what really solidifies my him as my second pick is I want to say it's Marvel 2 in one annual 7. Maybe it was 6.

I'm always second guessing myself. You can't tell Jill never, never puts me on information.

And it's a story where this one of the elders of the universe, the champion, comes down on Earth and says, look, I'm the strongest guy ever. Everyone fight me. And if you lose, bad things are going to happen.

So, like, you know, Thor and Namor and the Hulk and Colossus and a couple other guys are brought up to go and fight the champion. They all fall down. But like, then Grimm gets beaten up and he keeps getting back up because he knows the consequences, you know, if he loses.

So the champion's like, look, I can, like, kill you, but, like, I can't break your spirit. So, like, you win. And that to me is what a true hero is. Someone like, okay, against all odds, everything is going wrong.

I'm going to stand up for what's right. I'm going to protect people, even if it means I die. What do you think of Ben Love.

That I love Ben Grimm. And sort of the same thing, that this super handsome guy has it all taken away and then has to figure out, how do you still live in the world?

Um, and I think for all of us, we have that.

Like, listen, we live in a pretty shallow world and like, we are Also surrounded by messages all day long that tell us we should be like, prettier or more handsome or more thin or, you know, this. Your nose could look like this. Your cheekbones should look like this.

And we had to like, figure out how do we set that aside and then do the work that is set before us to do so. I like the relatability and the. Just that, you know, we're all fighting that battle. We're all doing that thing.

And he is just like the good guy of the Avengers. He's the most human. He's the most like, that's who I would want to hang out with. Not Avengers, of Fantastic Four.

Well, he has been in the new Avengers, but yeah, Fantastic Four, primarily.

Yeah. I do want to ask you, who's your favorite thing in the movies? Michael Chiklis.

I mean, Chiklis, obviously. I mean, like, it's pretty much to me is like Ben Grimm brought on on the screen.

I mean, those aren't perfect movies by any stretch of the imagination.

No.

But, you know, I think that was solid casting.

Okay.

I have no problems with the one I can't remember. I don't remember actors names or much of anything.

Eddie from Stranger Things. That's how I know.

Yeah, he. He did a solid job as the thing in the most recent one.

He doesn't have that cantankerousness that you pointed out earlier. Like, he's a much softer thing.

Yes. Well, it helps too. In that specific universe. They've been there for years, so off screen, he's probably had the time, you know, to adjust better.

Like, he's still not looking like he does, but they've been there for like eight or so years, I think they say in the film. Yeah.

So as far as, like, that makes sense.

Yeah. Characteristics, emulator, emulate, like. Or excise. I mean, the tenacity and the.

The genuineness of Ben Grimm is something like, yeah, I should have that more in my life. It's like, oh, like there's a problem ahead of me. Let me actually take care of that problem and say, I'll worry about that tomorrow.

Or let me let someone else do it. Like, no, no, no. Sometimes you got to be the one to step up, take it in the face.

No matter how many punches get in, like, no matter how many Muhammad Ali's are in your way, you got to take the punches. And Ben will do that more often than not. He's so loyal.

Like his love for his family and what I really do appreciate in most recent years now, one of the few things I think Slot did good in his Fantastic Four run, was actually marrying him to Alicia Masters after so many years of will they won't they. And they've been a solid pair together because they play off of each other extremely well. So I.

The loyalty to his wife, to the Kree and Skrull kids that they adopted in that run too, that they're still within Ryan North's run right now. That's a great way because Ben would always be a great families man. You always knew he would have been.

But like actually seeing it in action, that's great. Now, as far as, like, things to excise. Yeah. You know, we all have self loathing at some point in time. And you know what?

There are times when it's justified and that, oh, I did that thing. I shouldn't be happy about that thing. I should be grieving that I did that.

But there are times under very poor writers most of the time where that's all he'll be about, which you would think. He has a very legitimate reason to be self loathing because he does not look like everyone else anymore.

He is this giant, hulking, literal thing that when he's comparing and contrasting himself to other people, it's like they have this. I don't have that. And that cliche saying it's a cliche for a reason. It's like comparison is a thief of joy.

And that's something that we should excise from ourselves too. That under better writers, he does like, hey, this is who I am. Yeah. I would like to be human again. But you know what? I'm the thing.

I'm in a Fantastic Four. I'm pretty cool.

Yeah. I love it. I love that you said tenacity. When I was like taking notes as you were talking. That was the thing I wrote down was tenacity.

And as you're describing him in that particular fight, I was thinking of Captain America who's like, I could do this all day.

Yeah.

But I appreciate it more in a character like the Thing because he's not perfect. Like, I actually really don't like Captain America. The more that we get to do recordings together, you'll see.

But when Tony Stark is like, I just want to punch you and your perfect teeth, that's how I feel.

Fair enough. Maybe we should do our least favorites later on and, like, make everyone angry at us.

Yeah. Joshua especially. But I do appreciate that tenacity and that is something to emulate in that character.

Yeah. All right. Well, those are our number two picks.

Jill, why don't you go ahead and wow us with your number one pick, your personal iconic Marvel character.

Drum roll. This is not going to be a surprise. I didn't go super out on a limb, but it's Spider Man. I mean, what is more iconic to Marvel than Spider Man?

And for me personally and as like, a culture. So I shared earlier, the reason I got into Marvel Comics is because of my son.

And when he was 4 years old, starting at 4, he had a Spider man costume he got for Christmas. That kid wore that costume every day. I am not joking.

I'm laughing right now because some of the kids my mom watches, they do the exact same thing. They've got a regular Spider Man, a Miles, a Batman, and they wear those suckers out.

Oh, my gosh, Wear them out. And there's like, you know, every story has, like, these family lore stories that you tell when you get together.

My dad always tells this story of he came to pick Jack up to take him to Dairy Queen, and Jack was like, oh, wait, hold on a second. Grandpa ran upstairs, put his Spider man costume on, then put his other clothes on top and. And came downstairs to go to Dairy Queen.

Because you never know if you might need to be the Spider Man.

Yeah, I mean, it's very Peter Parker of, like, always wearing the costume underneath the clothing.

Yes. Very Peter Parker. And so I love the character of Spider man, first of all, because he's a kid, like, he's a teen.

He's like, you know, the Timothy of the Marvel Universe. I just. I love that Stan Lee made him a teenager. He's so, like, unassuming.

He is bogged down by all the things that regular teenagers are bogged down by, like, not getting his homework done, disappointing his aunt, always being late to things, just dealing with, like, everyday stuff, but has to find it in himself to be the hero. I love also that he's hyper local. He is your neighborhood Spider Man.

Yes.

And his job is to protect queens. Like, you know, and.

And then, of course, later on, he, like, expands that and he becomes the Avengers and he's protecting the world, but ultimately, he is about personal responsibility to the people in your circle. And I think that is something we need to emulate.

And I think when we do that really well, then the natural extension is to, now we're going to take care of people, make our circles a little bit bigger. A little bit bigger. A little bit bigger. You know, he is bogged down by guilt and shame, like we are. And he. Yeah, who. Who among us is not?

And he is able to still do the mission in front of him. Of course. Like the most iconic Marvel line ever is with great power comes great responsibility.

Absolutely.

And he does it. And we get to watch it and we get to watch it as like this young kid. Yeah, he's, he's the guy. To me, when I think Marvel, I think Spider man.

And of course Stan Lee created him, so all the more perfect. I also really love and I think this is what makes him so iconic. Oh, I do love Miles Morales. Spider man too. Like, well, and different roles though.

Spider Girl. Yeah, different roles.

Yeah.

But they do they still embody that like humanness?

Yes, very much.

And have to like overcome yourself to, to do great things.

But I love that Stan Lee has said he created the character of Spider man and very intentionally covered up every single part of his body so that every kid in Queens could imagine that they could be Spider Man.

You know, Stan's not a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination.

No, sir.

But you know what, it's things like that go okay. Thank you, sir.

Yeah. Pretty much every kid who's watched Spider man has thought it's me under that mask. I'm the one swinging around. I'm the one having these adventures.

And you can do that with someone. Yeah, we know who Peter Parker actually, what he actually looks like because he does take the mask off.

But like when he's actually swinging around, like it could be me up there. It could be up there.

Yep, yep. It's so cool. One other thing about like the reason I love him is because I love my son so much.

When he, when my kids turn 10, they get a trip to New York City. They have uncles that live in New York. And I didn't go with Jack when he was 10, but my brother in law said Jack kept looking up at the sky.

He was like bumping into people. Cuz he was always looking up. And at some point, like day two, the guys were like, jack, pay attention. What are you doing?

And he's like, well, I'm just seeing like you never know, we might see Spider Man.

Oh, that pure. Being a child. It's a Santa Claus.

I just love it. But like the power of a character to make someone believe that much. Even when he'd seen movies and he knows their movies. Like that's icon.

Yeah, that's perfect. Okay. Yeah. To no one's surprise, this is also my number one. There's a reason he's my avatar on the show. I was raised Spider Man. I bleed Spider Man.

I Haven't read everything. I'm working on it. But you know what? Peter Parker is my guy.

Yeah.

You know, I wasn't the best growing up. I wasn't like bullied or anything like that growing up. I had plenty of friends. I'm not trying to say that aspect, but, like, we've all been awkward.

We've all had that moment of, oh, I feel like this, or I have glasses or, you know, I don't feel like I fit in in this particular group, in this particular setting. And what the spider powers allow Peter to do is like, act out on things.

He wouldn't be able to do a normal conversation because he doesn't think he's capable of doing it. But along the way, he starts off teenager, then he becomes college age and was for a time married. We'll get to that.

But the confidence he builds, not only as Spider man also helps build the confidence of Peter Parker. Because Spider man is the mask. Peter Parker is the real guy.

We also see him engaging with his supporting cast and making the decisions he does there and flaking on his friends.

At times he has to deal with, you know, saving someone else's life as Spider man or like not having as many job opportunities because, you know, he's also got this huge responsibility that's built off of that guilt of the one time I didn't act, I lost my uncle. Like, can I afford to let someone else lose theirs or their aunt or their mother or what have you? Like, that's. We'll get to the excising part later.

There's. There's no bill. There's noble aspects of that and there's very poor aspects about that.

But to me, Spider man is like, not the ultimate underdog, but, like, compared to who he fights a lot of time he's fighting above his weight class a lot. Like most of the time, like Scorpion, Venom, Carnage, more than so on and so forth. These guys are just stronger, better than him, faster than him.

But what he does is he's one of the best all arounders, Jack of all trades in Marvel. It's like, yeah, he's not the smartest.

He's not as smart as Reed Richards, he's not as smart as Tony Stark, but he's smart enough to get things done, to figure out, oh, if I make this type of webbing, I can make asbestos webbing and stop the human torture. If he goes on a rampage or something, or when he's dealing with Venom, oh, no, my spider sense doesn't work.

What do I do instead Then as well, he's not the strongest. Once again, compared to someone like Thor or Hulk, he's nothing. And yet at the same time, he pushes it beyond his limits to protect other people.

The very iconic moment very early on where like, he's under all that wreckage, you know, Aunt May is going to die if he doesn't give like this special treatment to her.

And he get will to like boost himself beyond his limits, take on these punches from people just so he can get a moment of rest in between getting punched, so he can regain his strength and to save the day. I mean, that's my Peter Parker. That's. Spider man is someone who is willing to go beyond for the sake of others.

And that's something that I feel we should emulate once again. Kind of like the thing there's a problem that needs to be solved. I'm capable of solving that problem now.

One thing I say we should excise about Peter is that he can be a bit of a loner and he can be a bit of a jerk. Especially early on. One of the things he got to act out of Spider man is the things he wanted to say to people that he couldn't.

But now behind the mask he can. And he was very prickly and very few heroes really liked him because number one, they couldn't see who he was.

And number two, he was always saying these sarcastic things to them and about the situation. So they wondered, does he even take this seriously?

And it took years later they would actually learn the man behind the mask or if they know who he is or even like get a respect for him because they know, oh, he's just using it as a coping mechanism. Like, you know, it's scary doing what we do. So, like, if I'm. If Spider Man's telling jokes, that means he's afraid. But we're okay.

If Spider man isn't talking, we're screwed, you know, because he's really afraid. So, like, there's something about handling things with humor also as well. We should, you know, emulate to an extent. Like to not. I do that.

I reflect with humor to, you know, something goes wrong. It's like you try and make everyone else feel okay. It's like, okay, it's not that bad. We can work on something.

But when you do that too much, it makes it look like you don't care or that you feel like you're above what's happening. So that's something that should be excised. But the biggest thing is the, the dual nature of the with great power that must come great responsibility.

And the guilt that he suffers. This is who makes the character Spider Man. Without this, he's not the man he is.

There's been what ifs done of like, you know, if he never learned that responsibility, like he becomes like a showman in one what if issue where it's like, oh, I'm an actor, but I'm also a superhero. But he never really like learns and trains.

So when something bad happens to him, he's not prepared for it that he would have been as opposed to what he would be like in our regular timeline.

And that responsibility that drives him is so good because he thinks I have this power, let me use it wisely and help protect other people so that they don't have to suffer like I had to suffer. And I think that's a lot of what mentors should be doing to their students or just in general people to the people around them.

It's like, hey, I went through this. Let me do everything in my power to make sure you don't have to so that you can learn the lesson without having had to go through it. That's huge.

But then the bad part comes in with that. Guilt is also what helps define him to an extent of where he can't let go of the past and he can't forgive himself.

And I think at the end of the day, Peter will never fully forgive himself. But I think he's gotten to the point where he knows it wasn't truly 100% his fault, like bad things would have happened anyways.

So he's got to move on past that. And I think one of the bad things about some recent Spider man is that the responsibility aspect has been removed to him.

Because what is more responsible than being a husband and what is more responsible than that to being a father in that scenario for him. And the child was taken away from him because of editorial decisions.

Mary Jane was taken away from him because, you know, we got to sell, we got to save some 90 year old bag who's about to die anyways thanks to the powers of Mephisto, you know, the Marvel analog to Satan. You know, that's what our hero is doing by, by the way. And I will never let that go until it's fixed.

And that's when you get to the darker aspects of the responsibility going too far in one direction. He becomes less of the hero's supposed to be. Yeah, I talk a lot. I want, I want to hear what you have to say.

I love that we have the same Pick that makes me happy.

I think as far as, like, things that we could excise from ourselves that are like Spider man and Peter Parker is, you had mentioned a little bit the humor, and I think, yes, the humor is super important, but it's sarcasm, right? Like teenagers use sarcasm as this tool.

Yes.

Because they can't just tell their parents f you and so instead they, they use sarcasm. But it's hurtful and it's like rarely ever adds anything to a situation and a lot of us mature out of it.

I don't see Peter Parker ever maturing out of it. I think he still uses this as like a, a jab and a tool to hurt people, even people that he loves. And I don't think we need that.

I, I don't think we need it in today's world with the things that we're up against and we're fighting. I think humor, yes. Sarcasm, no.

Okay. Anything else?

The I, I, I really like what you had said about the play of like, the personal responsibility, but also letting yourself off the hook for the guilt that you might feel because that'll just take you down a spiral and can lead to this horrible things happening to both the people around you and the people that you're, you know, charged with protecting. So it's that being able to forgive yourself.

Yeah, I think, I think is something we can all learn from that character, from something that he wasn't able to do. Maybe we can figure out, you know, see it and be able to forgive ourselves for the things that we just can't let ourselves off the hook for.

Those you think, oh, it'd be super easy. I love me, let me forgive me. But it, then it gets to the point you, what did you do?

You hurt other people, or you said this and, you know, it caused something bad to happen, or you did this and it caused something bad to happen. It's like, I don't know if I forgive myself. Well, good news is we can.

And the good news is we have the person, the good shepherd, who can help us, you know, help us to give ourselves forgiveness. So I'm incredibly grateful for that. And like, when it comes to the religious part of it, like, Peter has been kind of sort of of Protestant.

It's not really focused on like modern writers are being who they are. He's probably seen more as an agnostic who was raised Christian, as it were.

So that's something I'd like to see return to a little bit to his, have him explore some of his roots in that way. Because, like, May definitely is someone who's a woman of faith and see him kind of rest with that. That'd be its own thing.

But like anything else we want to say about our number one pick, pick.

Spider man said that. I'm very curious because I think this is a character really close to Stanley's heart. Like, this was his first, like, you know, hit.

And I'm wondering why he didn't write the Parker family as Jewish. That's interesting.

60S.

Oh.

Same thing. Why Ben Grimm wasn't originally Jewish until it was retconned later on.

And I would argue a really good retcon, you know, given, you know, Kirby and his sensibilities, both of them being Jewish men. Lee and Kirby both. Wait. Yes. I was thinking of Ditko for a second. He was not Jewish, if I'm remembering correctly.

So that's why they did it for the thing later on. But I think for Peter, they wanted him to be like, the typical American teenager. And that would primarily be white, Anglo, Saxon.

Yeah.

So having, like, a distinctly Jewish character probably wouldn't be seen as, like, great as your main guy. I'm not saying that's right, but I'm thinking that was the decision they made behind the scenes of maybe not to do it that way.

Mm. It's so funny with pop culture. Right.

Like, it's totally cool to have Captain America fighting Nazis, but we certainly don't want to give him a Jewish identity. Just interesting.

It was the 60s. It was a different time. Doesn't make it right. But that's where they were. All right, so those were our top three picks for our iconic characters.

Jill, would you like to shout out any other iconic characters that you would like to mention?

Yeah.

So, I mean, I feel like a bad feminist here on this show because I only talked about the men of Marvel, but it's not my fault that they wrote so many great men. And I feel like some of the female characters are like afterthoughts.

I think Shuri is iconic in the Black Panther series, and I would love to see more of her character development as a cinematic universe, like, progresses. She, Hulk, I think, really has, like, there's. There's so much opportunity there, and it's so ripe for more, I think, in the comics. It's really cool.

I don't really love what Marvel did with the TV series, and so I'd like to see her come in better.

Just. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So we did an episode, Josh and I, with Leah not too far back and our top female characters, and Storm was on Mine, I love her.

Like, ever since seeing her in an animated series, seeing someone who control the weather, who's this super awesome chick. Love her to death. Like, she's gone through really great arcs throughout the comics, too.

And if we don't hit every Marvel character, you know, it's because there's hundreds of them. So, you know, if you don't literally, like, let us know. Like, we want to hear who your icons are, too. But, I mean, of course you've got your staples.

You know, Captain America's always been big with me. Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, of course. I mean, Daredevil. Love him out of the Fantastic Four. Besides the thing.

Like, I love Reed, but he's not really, like, big with me. But sue and Johnny, I both love them a lot more. Like, I think saying out loud read is my least favorite.

I mean, least favorite of a group of heroes I really love. Not that I hate read or anything, but, like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trying to think of who else Dr. Doom would have definitely been. I had a hard time not putting him on my list. Magneto, one of the best.

Yeah.

Villain heroes of all time. Yeah. I'm sure there's a thousand more I could put there, but just for the sake of time, I'm going to say those for my honorable mentions.

Yeah. Ditto on all of yours. Good job.

All right. Thank you. So, all right, so those were our personal picks. What do you think?

Who would you imagine would be, like, the top three mainstream, iconic Marvel characters at this point in time?

I think Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk.

Okay.

And Spider Man's always going to be up there, but, like, Hulk's not too far off. Yeah. Makes sense to me. So now that we've listed all these different characteristics of these characters, why don't we go ahead and say what traits?

Like. Like, let's amalgam them all and emulate the ones that we want to.

Yeah.

So it's like the tenacity that we saw in the thing we discussed in the thing, the nobility and responsibility of T', Challa, the commitment to self from Dr. Doom.

It doesn't have to be all of them. Just which ones you want to pick.

Okay. That's it. Those are my top.

Okay. Yeah. All right. I'm going to say I'm going to double on the tenacity for Ben Grimm. Now you've said it more. The more I like hearing it out loud.

I think we need to be more tenacious in our lives and the struggles we face on an everyday basis. I'm going to put out the resourcefulness of Rick Jones to always be prepared. That's even better.

Like you can be tenacious, but if you're not prepared, it's not going to work. Now we both pick Spider Man. Yeah. The responsibility is something that we should always be second guessing ourselves, not to cripple ourselves.

But what are my motivations for doing what I'm doing and how can I do it in the most responsible way possible so that the most people are impacted by what I do? And of course, doom. Not talking of Christian in the third person, that'd be a good one to excise. I'm arrogant enough as it is.

I can't be doing that, not giving myself a doctorate that I didn't earn. I could also put that on there. Yeah. With T' Challa 2. Like the nobility you said.

That's a perfect example of someone who was born with something using that to help others. That's a good way of putting it.

All right, so that's all we had to say on our regular part of the episode today on our top three iconic Marvel characters. To us, if you guys have different suggestions you want to throw out, let us know. We'd love to hear, like, who your top three is.

Like, you didn't talk about this person, Chris. You didn't talk about Blade. You love Blade. I forgot to say Blade earlier. He's pretty cool too.

But we're gonna have a special bonus question here, and that is gonna be, if we had the opportunity to write the main comic for any Marvel character, who would it be and what stories would we like to tell with them? So if that's something that interests you, you can head over to fourth Wall and get it that way.

We've got links down in the description below for you to check out over all the stuff we do over there. So, Jill, do you have a recomm audience to check out?

Oh, Bonia, I just saw the movie. Bonia. I'm trying to catch all the movies that are going to be Oscar nominees and that was the one that was on my list. Whoa. It is a crazy wild ride.

I definitely recommend people go see it or stream it at home. It's not in the theaters anymore.

Okay, I'm going to recommend. I haven't finished it yet, but I'm really enjoying it.

I just pretty much got done with act three, so I've beaten about a final balls, but there's in game stuff to clean up. Expedition 33 has been one of the greatest explorations of grief and trauma I've ever experienced in any way, shape or form.

I was not expecting this and they blew me away. I mean, it's a great game. I suck at the parrying system because I'm old and my reflexes are bad. But you know what? It's still fun.

And I think it has a lot to say that about, you know, the trauma we go through and the loss of a loved one. And I know that's that's technically spoilers, but I was vague enough to where no one can know what's going on. So thank you all for what you do.

Please get a chance to a five star review and your podcasting platform of choice help us with the ratings there to help us find more people to recruit each other and have more episodes for them to enjoy as well. You can feel free to suggest episode topic ideas for us. We'd love hearing what you guys have to say.

You can send us questions, concerns, hatredoshua to systematic ecology gmail.com I I email them on the daily let's shout out some supporters. Thank you very much to Russell Gentry, Justin Vaughn, Annette Knoll and Jeannie Mattingly. Remember, we are all a chosen people, a geekdom of priests.