Do you have a documentary, or do you have a Wikipedia entry?

Somebody decides whether your documentary gets made. Sophia Dilley is one of those people. She runs Concord Originals, the division behind Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. on HBO, and she is Co-President of RKO, which Concord bought in June 2025 along with more than 5,000 titles including King Kong, Citizen Kane and It's a Wonderful Life. In this episode she gives away the three questions she asks before her team commits to anything.

In Episode 286, Christian sits down with Sophia Dilley, Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO, to talk about how a project gets chosen, how to reach out to someone far above you, and how music rights for film work when the budget you have is the only budget there is.

The spine of the conversation is a question Dilley asks before her team commits to anything: is this a Wikipedia story we're telling? If the whole thing is already available in twelve seconds of searching, there may not be a film in it. Around that sit her two other threshold questions, a working answer to why the documentary business feels impossible right now, and the plainest reassurance in the episode. "It's scary," she says. "It's scary for everybody." Along the way: a punk band that played CBGB's, a production designer father who left for set at four forty-five in the morning, Roger Deakins as a case study in how to write to someone you admire, and the difference between distribution rights and derivative rights, which is the thing almost everyone (Including Christian!) got wrong about the RKO deal. If you have ever been told that music rights for film are impossible on an independent budget, she has a different answer.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• What Concord actually acquired when it bought RKO, and why distribution rights and derivative rights are two entirely different things
• The three questions Sophia Dilley asks before committing to any story
• How to tell whether you have a film or a Wikipedia entry
• The difference between sync and publishing, and why one song can mean two negotiations with two different companies
• What to say to a music company when the budget you have is the only budget there is
• Why a music documentary takes five years on average, and what eats the time
• Why a rejection is usually about the marketplace rather than about your film
• How to open a door with someone you admire without being, in her words, a scary, creepy fan
• What it looks like inside a company that generates most of its projects out of its own catalog

CHAPTERS

0:00 What Concord Actually Bought With RKO

5:34 From CBGB's to Running a Studio Division

11:42 Reaching Out to People Above You

16:32 Why Distribution Is Scary for Everybody

21:26 Who Are You Really Competing With?

26:02 Music Rights for Film: Sync and Publishing

29:49 Why a Doc Takes Five Years

34:54 How Does She Decide What Gets Made?

41:44 Women, Allies, and Your Replacement

46:05 What if You Can't Afford the Song?

50:05 Closing Argument and DocuView Deja Vu

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you get music rights for a documentary?

You need permission from more than one owner. The song belongs to a publisher and the specific recording belongs to a label, so most documentaries need both a sync license and a master use license. On Stax: Soulsville U.S.A., that meant clearing more than thirty artists, multiple publishers and several estates. Concord Originals EVP Sophia Dilley says the first step is acknowledging you need those rights before you build the film around them.

What if I can't afford to license a song for my film?

Call anyway, and be honest about the budget. Sophia Dilley advises independent filmmakers to say who they are, name what the film was made for, show the actual scene the song would sit under, and ask directly for help. "Behind every door at every music company, there are real people," she says. A studio with a real budget cannot use that approach. A genuine independent often can.

How long does it take to make a music documentary?

Longer than most filmmakers expect. Sophia Dilley of Concord Originals puts the average at five years, at least. Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. began in 2018, when a colleague walked into her office with the story, and premiered on HBO in May 2024. Much of that time goes to music rights, estates and publishers rather than to production, because every stakeholder connected to the music has to be brought on side first.

Who owns RKO now?

Concord Originals acquired RKO Pictures in June 2025, but the deal is narrower than it sounds. Distribution rights to the classic RKO library remain with Turner. What Concord bought are the derivative rights, meaning remakes, sequels, prequels, story and stage rights to more than 5,000 titles the studio produced in-house. Sophia Dilley serves as Co-President of RKO, which continues to operate under Concord Originals.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VU PICKS

Sophia Dilley's picks:

• [New York Doll](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436629/) (2005), directed by Greg Whiteley. A deep cut about Arthur "Killer" Kane of the New York Dolls and his search for his own history. Dilley notes that Whiteley went on to make Cheer, and the warmth is already here.
• [Science Fair](https://films.nationalgeographic.com/science-fair) (2018), directed by Cristina Costantini and Darren Foster. She saw it at SXSW, where it won the Audience Award. Teenagers at the international science fair, and, in her words, so much magic in following a real human story.

SPONSORED BY

This episode is brought to you by [Virgil Films Entertainment.](https://virgilfilms.com/) Over 25 years of distribution experience, from Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo to Forks Over Knives and Speed is Expensive. If you are a filmmaker having trouble with distribution, talk to Virgil.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

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CONNECT

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Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

[Sophia Dilley](https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophia-dilley-32098612/) is Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO. Concord hired her in 2018 to build a content strategy, and in 2021 she launched Concord Originals, the company's film and television division. Her father was a production designer, so she grew up on movie sets watching what the work actually costs. Before film, she thought she would go into music: piano, violin, voice lessons, and a punk band in high school that played CBGB's in New York.

ABOUT CONCORD ORIGINALS

[Concord Originals](https://concord.com/originals/) is the film and television arm of Concord, developing screen stories out of one of the largest independent music and theatrical catalogs in the world. Most of its projects are self-generated, which Dilley describes as the division's whole remit: take what is already under the roof and find a new life for it. Because the catalog is the source, music rights for film sit at the center of nearly every project the division takes on.

Recent and upcoming work discussed in this episode:

• [Stax: Soulsville U.S.A.](https://staxrecords.com/news/stax-soulsville-usa-hbo-original-series/) (HBO, 2024), the four-part series directed by Jamila Wignot. Peabody winner, nominated for two Emmys.
• [Billy Preston: That's the Way God Planned It](https://www.abramorama.com/film/billypreston) (2026), directed by Paris Barclay, in theaters through Abramorama.
• [Pretty Ugly: The Story of the Lunachicks](https://www.primevideo.com/detail/0JALRVESVNYMKZ3MWYFVVH8KV0/) (2026), directed by Ilya Chaiken, brought to Concord by Betsy West and Julie Cohen.
• Films on Billie Holiday, Cyndi Lauper, Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop, and Creedence Clearwater Revival, with Robert Johnson and Fania Records on the way.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

[Documentary First](https://documentaryfirst.com/) is a weekly podcast about the craft, the business, and the truth of documentary filmmaking, hosted by Christian Taylor. Nearly 300 episodes in, Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide, MillionPodcasts ranks it the number one documentary film podcast in the US, and it holds a 4.8 out of 5 on Apple Podcasts. Christian Taylor is a documentary filmmaker (The Girl Who Wore Freedom), actor, voice actor, and casting director.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Soulsville U.S.A.: The Story of Stax Records by Rob Bowman, the book behind the film: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2775862
• Documentary First Episode 277, Teddy Cannon on music rights and licensing, the other side of this conversation: https://pod.fo/e/413f3a

I played the piano, the violin, I took voice lessons. A little known fact, I was in a punk band in high school that played at CBGB's in New York.

Somebody just bought RKO, King Kong, Citizen Kane, It's a Wonderful Life, The Best Years of Our Lives. 5,000 titles. And today I'm talking with Sophia Dilley, the woman who now co-runs that library about what you do with a shelf like that and about how she gets music documentaries made when everybody else says the rights are impossible. Sophia Welcome to Documentary First. I'm really glad you're here. And for everybody listening, Sophia is the Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and the Co-President of RKO now. Concord hired her in 2018 to build a content strategy, and in 2021, she launched Concord Originals, their film and TV division, which is why she's here today. Since then, her team has made Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. for HBO, which won a Peabody and was nominated for two Emmys They've made films on Billie Holiday, Cyndi Lauper, Billy Preston, Shari Lewis, and Lamb Chop, The Lunachicks and Creedence Clearwater Revival. Robert Johnson and Fania Records are on the way, and last year they bought, like I said, RKO. The confession that I have, and the first question, Sophia. The Best Years of Our Lives is one of my favorite films. I'm a World War II documentarian, of course it would be, along with It's a Wonderful Life, another favorite. So when I read that Concord had bought RKO, my first thought, was really thank goodness somebody saved these films. They'll both live on. I've really been worried about, Best Years of Our Lives because who watches that? So here's what I'm curious about. Like When you guys were talking about that deal, was it merely just a deal or Was there somebody that loved that library and thought, my gosh, we have to save that? Take me behind that discussion.

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. RKO is so much fun to talk about. It is the coolest legacy studio. And I think when we first started examining the library, it really came from this perspective that we have at Concord, which is looking at these legacy IPs, really important, impactful pieces of art, music. film, theater, everything that's under our roof, I think RKO ties really well into that. It's something that I think needs to be elevated. It needs to be championed today so that not only does it have a new life, but that we don't forget about these important, iconic, canonical libraries that impact us every day. So It's interesting. And I wanna I want to clarify something quickly because I think everybody sort of looks at what we did and says, you bought the distribution rights. The distribution rights to RKO still live with Turner. We have all the remake derivative rights. So we have remakes, sequels, prequels. And it's to the films that RKO produced at the studio. So there's some of them that you listed, like Best Years of Our Lives, which is a fantastic film and obviously a best picture. and it's actually a Samuel Goldwyn. Film that was distributed by RKO as a studio. And so I think we have this incredible history where that as a studio, they distributed all these incredible movies. But then we have access to what were the films they actually built in-house? How can we take those and reimagine them for today? And that's everything from Alfred Hitchcock's Suspicion to Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House which was a Cary Grant fun comedy about. what it's like to buy a house with your spouse and have everything go wrong, which I think is relatable to everybody. So, we look at we looked at it as there's so much crossover with everything we already have. We have so many musicals in the Concord Theatricals library that R. K.O. also touched. An example of that would be Irving Berlin's Top Hat. and that sort of started the conversation. And then when you look into it deeply, the The studio had 92 film musicals. We have so much music under our roof. There was just a lot of synergy that I think we thought this makes a lot of sense for us. And especially as a company that's striving to be a really important partner for anybody who's trying to ensure that their library, their artist, their estate is continuing to be championed in the marketplace. That's something that we take really, really seriously.

That is a really interesting distinction. I would have never understood that had you not separated that out. Who knew? That could be a thing.

I know. It's it's the the world we live in now is like all these rights are separated.

It's sort of like buying a house and property, but you can also sell the mineral rights underneath, right?

Totally. Yep.

Interesting. Okay, well, that's all amazing, but I want to know something, which is how did you become who you are? I read your bio and it was a really short one. I hope people will go maybe to the website where I hope it lives and read your full bio because. It's amazing. The stuff that you have done and how you have risen to the position that you are. How have you become this woman in this industry that has risen to this level to curate and champion these things and not just, Oh I networked with this person and I networked with that person. I want to know how you were raised with the values that made you care about these sort of things that really made you the person that you are.

Well, I love that question because I get to brag about my family who I adore and love. So I'm the oldest of four children and I have an older half sister. So there's a lot of voices in my house. And to be heard, you had to really stand up and be ready to be loud and rambunctious, but also innately curious. Like my parents really raised me to be curious about the world and to have an opinion. And there was never a dull moment around our dinner table. We were always debating, always talking about things every single night as a family. And I don't think this will be a surprise, but I was a kid that literally I think my mom put me in everything. Like I think I did dance, hockey, music conservatory, snowboarding. I mean, which is amazing. I was so lucky to have a a family that encouraged me to try a million different things. My father was a production designer in the film industry. So I equally had exposure to this business very early. I sort of grew up on movie sets and saw the amount of work he had to put in. You know, he had to be on set at four forty-five in the morning and he would be gone for months and months at a time working on really big films. And so, you know, I saw the sort of hard work and effort you had to put in to really hone your craft. So I think the combo of those things, and hilariously, I actually growing up, I thought I would go into music as just a a career in itself. I played the piano, the violin, I took voice lessons. a little known fact, I was in a punk band in high school that played at CBGB's in New York. so I I had real big music aspirations. And then there was a moment that I decided, you know what, I want music to be my hobby, not my career, because I love it so much. And I don't want it to be this thing that's tied to like my financial success. And so then I chose film. Why I chose that, I don't know either, because it's not like it was any easier.

Right, just as secure, just as easy.

yeah. And I loved storytelling. I was really, I think, especially in high school, I was really always picking up cameras and like filming my friends. And we were always doing little stories and music videos and things we could do just because we had access to digital cameras. And so I felt very excited by storytelling and ultimately got into film school at Loyola Marymount University and studied. Film production as well as political science, because I really love academia. I could literally go to school forever. I'm like, I'm so curious about the world. I just really appreciate learning new things, which is probably why I'm drawn to documentaries particularly. It's just such a great way to get into a topic and learn more and kind of find the emotion behind it. But it definitely informed who I was. And I think that instilled in me. this sort of aspect of social responsibility as well as the craft itself. So that's my my spiel.

That's beautiful. All right. Well, after you got out of school then, you had all the degrees and all this studying. What did you do next?

Well, so I was an intern for many years. And this was the days where you worked for free. So I had to have like a side job and you interned for free multiple days and I was taking classes. I really just leaned into the idea that you have to constantly be pursuing a network of people that are creating things. And so every opportunity that I got, and I think whether that was in front of I I started interning for director Pete Berg. and I did everything I could to meet the people within his company, within the production offices that were on his projects and and took that sort of rolling network effort, whereas, I would meet someone and say, well, who do you think I should meet? And what what drew you into this business? And really took the time to get to know people. And all of those people that I met during that time, I still talk to today. So it's kind of incredible when you think about how important your relationships are. And how important it is to really build an authentic real connection. I think that's such an important part of both storytelling, if you're especially in the nonfiction space, but equally just to make it in your career, you really have to feel a bond with the people that you're working with, that you're gonna be in the trenches with for years and years.

I love what you just said about authentically caring about the relationships. I often tell people the same thing. Like, if you want to really make it in this business, don't just think about, helping yourself to get a leg up or do something that will help you in your career. Genuinely care about the people. genuinely want to know them or be interested in their projects because ultimately you end up with a friend. And that's really what matters in this life, because we work with people that we enjoy and that we like. And ultimately, I think that's what this life is about, right?

Totally.

It's not really about the work, it's about the people, the friends and the family and the people that we love. And that's what makes our work rich, I think. And you can see that in our work. I actually saw that as I watched your trailers. The trailers that you shared with me about the movies that your company has done just made me want to run right away and watch all the documentaries. In fact, I didn't even know about Billy Preston. Didn't even know. I mean, I knew the songs, of course, but immediately there was one line in your trailer. I think it was maybe by one of his family members, like, how did we lose him or something like that? It was just

Mm-hmm.

the one question. Because the whole

Mm-hmm.

thing was about God gave me this purpose et cetera, et cetera. So you think everything's going great until that one line. And then I was like, what happened? And I knew I didn't have time to watch the documentary. So I was Googling right away. You know? And there was just such love and care in all of those trailers that I watched. The one with Lamb Chop and Shari Lewis,

Yeah.

I felt that. So that passion kind of for people and for your work. came through and so I really appreciate hearing you say that. I just wanna amplify it because I think it's really important.

It's such a good I call it sort of a true north, is that you really want to have a genuine passion for the whether it's you're reaching out to someone that you want to connect with who can help you or you need a director on a project, you have to do the work and go, what is what is their craft? What are they really good at? What do I really like about this? Because if you also are doing it from a place of I just know their name and they're not They seem to be popular. They'll probably get me here. Or their company is successful, but you don't actually know what they've produced and you don't have the connective what drew you into their work? What made you passionate about this that connects to whatever they've created? I think that's a great way to open the door and not be doing sort of the, you know, I get a lot of those, hi, I need your help. I'm putting a project together. And it's like, well, what's the What's the human connection here? What we are we're all on this planet. We have this ability to say, I watched your work and I love this part about it. Or if you want to be a cinematographer and you're reaching out to someone like a Roger Deakins and you want to say, "Your work is so incredible." And the way that you mastered lighting and and the framing, it's inspired so much of what I'm doing. I just want to tell you how much it's impacted me. Wow, that's great. Then just let them come out and say, Well, that's great. How can I help you? Especially if you're a young person entering the business. There's a lot of wisdom you can get just from saying hello and and being a fan without being a scary, creepy fan. You know, you don't want to overly step those bounds, but you can use being a human and connecting with somebody's work as a way to open a door.

Absolutely. I love that idea because also what you're doing is giving them a gift. People work so hard and they put their heart out there and they're giving all the time. But for you to come and say how much their work has impacted you and how it's made a difference in your life and how you've changed your work because of them, that's a gift that you're giving back. That's what they're doing their work for. You know, while I mentioned your trailer, I think I'd like to share that Billy Preston trailer if you don't mind.

Please.

All right. Here you go everybody. This is what's the title of this? Billy Preston

That's the way God planned it.

All right, everybody, here you go.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you will, Mr. Billy Preston.

Why can't we be humble?

Billy Preston deserved to be one of the biggest stars in the world. Because he was just that good.

Billy worked with Little Richard, the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, Ray Charles, all the greats.

It seemed like he was trying to channel sacred prayer music.

I feel like everything that's happened for me in my life has been the way God has planned it.

All right. There you have it, everybody. That's Billy Preston. Where can they watch this film?

Well, that's a great question. So right now it's doing a theatrical circuit, which I know we're gonna potentially talk about distribution later, but we're we're going in theaters first. We got a great partner in a Abramorama who's been helping us get the film out to as many locations as possible. We really believe in letting people see this on the big screen. and then we're working on our strategy for the streaming and downstream rights for the project.

But I love it that you believe in the theater and believe in putting things on the screen. So thank you for that. We love that. And I love it that you talked about partnering with them because partners are super important. And one of my partners that supports me on this podcast is also become a friend. His name is Joe Amodei of Virgil Films. This podcast would not exist without their support. I think you know Joe Amodei, yeah?

Yes, we love Virgil Films. One of the good ones.

Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at Virgil Films. With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil has released such hits as Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, along with a trove of indie treasures like Forks Over Knives, To Die For, Seven Yards, and Speed is Expensive. Now you can find all of those films, along with the entire Virgil catalog, on any transactional platform out there like Amazon, Apple TV, YouTube, Tubi, and the rest. Are you a filmmaker having trouble with distribution? Talk to Virgil. They work with every major platform directly, and they offer a variety of deals that fit every filmmaker's needs, from standard distribution to service deals. They do it all. And they don't just distribute films, they elevate them. Truthfully, they're just really good people to work with. So if you want to learn more, head over to Virgilfilms.com and tell them Christian Taylor sent you. And now, on with the show.

You we were going to talk about distribution. Let's jump right in. So it is the hot topic of today. This whole world has turned upside down, as you and everybody else that's trying to get things distributed knows. It is extremely contracted for independent filmmakers. Maybe it's easier for you, but most people listening to my podcast are the little guys. And right now it's really tough for us. And so we all are wondering how in the world is anybody ever gonna see our films? I mean, first of all, distributors are not coming to film festivals anymore. They are getting their films before they ever get there, so why go? And then it is very difficult to get deals that are favorable, and even if you get a deal, they're not gonna market your films anyway. So how does this even work? And Do you have the same problems?

I think that right now, one of the things that I feel is so important to talk about because we're all facing this, is the doc market in particular, but in general, the business is shifting and evolving. But the doc market is a huge challenge. And I think whether you are a new filmmaker or a a tried and true, incredible, iconic filmmaker, everybody is facing this. It is a really, really challenging time to get projects. Up and running. and I there's a lot of factors that I think are playing into it. And and I think it's at least for me, it's really cathartic to know that everybody's experiencing it. It's not unique to one person or one project. There are so many documentaries that haven't found distribution yet. So many stories that are great that I've seen of festivals that I went. I can't believe I can't watch this yet. and I think a lot of this is stemming from this oversaturation of content generally and then the shifting mandates and shifting priorities at particularly the streaming level that's made it really hard to figure out the right business models for these projects. And and it's scary. It's scary for everybody. I think we all want to be in an ecosystem that's supporting the storytelling that we've seen over the decades and decades of particularly independent film taking off. And I I really feel that some of how I start to look at the business is to have, okay, well, there's a problem. What's what's the opportunity in the problem? And I think part of that is really shifting towards a different strategy when you're thinking about distribution. And that can be digital. I think we all have to start thinking about how people are consuming content. I think everybody keeps saying YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. They don't really know what that means yet, but I think we're right on the cusp of a big shift that will enable people to figure out how to navigate the new market. And I also think there's some things people need to sort of take a step back and take advantage of. So never before could you pick up your phone and make a movie. Now you can. And If you think about distribution in the same way, is it starting to build a different kind of strategy where you're doing bite-sized content on different social media platforms to draw people in and figure out a way to then put your film up, whether it's on your own user-generated channel on YouTube or figuring out ways to get your film in front of people uniquely?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it really is a different time. And I love it that your way of addressing that is to say, there is a problem. Let's don't look at the problem. Let's look at what the opportunity is. And I I think if I'm gonna take away anything from what you said, that that's the most important thing. Let's stop crying about the problem and let's look for what the opportunity is. Because if you look back through all of history, the people that were looking ahead. At how to find that open opportunity are the people that succeeded. So that's beautiful insight. So thank you for that. What I do wonder is just like you hit on with the social media, people that are younger than us, what they're watching is the micro content. are our documentaries going to have to be chopped up into these tiny little pieces in order for people to watch them? That's number one question. And number two, People still love documentaries no matter how young. So I think as filmmakers, we just have to figure out how the Economics of it all work, because that's always got to be important, and how the delivery of it works and how the discovery of it works. I think the discovery of it is a real problem. Because even with your own films, I said to you earlier, I'm so glad you're coming on the podcast. Because had I not seen your trailers or met you, I probably wouldn't have known your films existed. And I think I think that's a great thing that podcasts are for is discovery of these films, right? I mean, how else do people discover them?

Well, and that's the thing. We're all competing for attention. And how we see, you know, I open up Netflix and there's just so many thumbnails, I'm overwhelmed by all the things that I'm going, I want to see that, I want to watch that, I want to do this. And so you're already in this landscape that's so competitive. And to your point, it's finding these ways to get people's attention. I don't necessarily think it means all of a sudden we have to make docs that are three seconds long and that's how you're gonna watch it or

Good.

That it's chopped up. I still believe people have the attention span, maybe a slightly different watching style, but they still want to see a cohesive narrative. I think it's about how you get them there. And to your point, right? It's this is the marketing challenge we all have, whether it's in film and TV or music or live events. Like we're all competing for people's attention. And I think that part of it is. Just thinking outside the box around how are you gonna get people to go? I care about this topic. This topic is covered in this film or project or doc. And how do those two things become very inherent to however you're experiencing the media you're in front of? And I think it also speaks to how we look at the kinds of content we're picking now. I think before, This is and this is part of why we're seeing the after effects of this. Everyone was just like, I'm gonna make everything and I'm gonna make every story and I'm gonna tell this because there's an infinite amount amount of stories, particularly in unscripted, that are great. But the issue is trying to figure out is the timing and the context of these stories going to hit for the audience we're trying to get. And how do you thread that needle in a way where you're tapping into your fan base or your audience that's sort of pre-built? And bringing them into your content. And I think everybody struggles with it. We struggle with it. I think the big streamers struggle with it because everybody's trying to figure out that magic sauce that gets connected. But but that really is why so many times, and and I think it's good to hear this when you're a filmmaker and you're you're frustrated with the responses you're getting. Sometimes those responses are coming from that lens, which are. I'm looking at what's in the landscape, what's in the marketplace. There's too many projects that's core themes are all the same. And if I'm competing and there's this project in the market, I'm never going to get the attention for yours at this moment. Maybe in two years from now, it'll be a different story. But but that's why having a really diverse slate of ideas and things you're working on is so important because you need to have multiple projects you can pull up for the right moment that can tap into. The zeitgeist of what's going on.

So now you're really talking about your business brain, because what you're saying is you've got to come to the table and you've got to think backwards. You've got to think about the business aspect of it and you've got to use a lot of analysis to answer those questions, what is out there? What's the culture interested in? and what am I interested in telling? Because that's a mix right there. because you have to have passion about it. in order to really make something that people want to watch, right? and then there's the budget issue. What can what can we afford to make? And then what's somebody that wants to support me or distributed interested in too? So that's a lot of business right there. Do you work with people who come to you and say, I have this formula, I've answered all those questions. Are you interested in partnering with me? Or do you go to people because I know you partnered with Imagine, for example, do you say, We have these things? And are you that person that goes to somebody like Imagine and says, Hey, this is we figured out this business part of it. Do you want to partner with us? Or both?

I would say a majority of what we do is the latter that you just mentioned. When you when you read out the list of projects that we have, it looks like, it's so great. They had all these projects that they got done. We were in the same boat of having to go out and engage certain stakeholders and win over people, whether it was distributors, whether it was partners, whether it was directors, whether it was the artists or the rights that we had to tackle. At at every stage we are in the proactive process of finding the right people to bring into a project. So it's mostly us going out. Sometimes people come to us with something that we then jump on board and help craft those those packages that help get something made. But I would say a majority is internal self-generated because we're looking at our catalog in particular. That's really the remit of what Concord Originals is, is to say how do we take what's under our roof and find a new opportunity for it?

So thank you for that answer. Next question, you talked about rights. So I'm insanely curious about this. it sounds like to me you have the same anxiety producing problems that I may have or another filmmaker may have, which is are they gonna partner with us? How are we gonna approach them? Do we have the right pitch deck? Oh my gosh, I hope they like us, you know, is that true?

It's absolutely true.

Can we get the rights and how much do they cost?

Yes And I'll say this that most of the time because we are a rights holder in addition to a producer on these projects, we are usually coming in with a piece or sometimes all of the rights. So I will say that there there is sometimes the hurdle that you're talking about has overcome internally. But given the kinds of projects we've worked on. Which all usually have a complex set of rights. There's usually a lot of different stakeholders, whether it's Stax had 30 plus artists, multiple music publishers, a a lot of different estates from people who who now oversee Otis Redding, Isaac Hayes, different groups who had weigh-in on, well, if you're gonna cover this part of the story, I wanna know that. everything is in line with how we want to ensure we're creating our impact. So it's it's a very challenging landscape. And I think one of the things it goes back to what we were saying earlier about building relationships and building trust is you have to come at these conversations with that same it's both a relentless passion for the idea you're trying to tell True authenticity around your intent. And then I think really believing that what you're presenting is such an incredible, like you're building a family, right? You want to make sure that you're continuing that from every part of the process, your production team to the people that you're telling the story about.

I can imagine you have all these forces pulling against each other, because like you said, you have all these different musicians. And I know there's such a thing as sync rights and publishing rights. So it's not just one right when you're talking about an artist or music, you're talking about two different ones, and they can be owned by different companies. and then you're talking about estates. So then there are, you know, artists' estates that, like you said, have weigh in. And those all could conflict.

They absolutely can.

are in charge of all of those things and working all those deals. That all sounds like very complicated stuff to try to get a movie told. Talk about that.

it's absolutely complicated. it always comes down to well, one, Producer 101: acknowledge that you do need these rights to begin with, because I think a lot of people go into projects without that and and end up in a place later where they're trying to get somebody engaged when they've made too much progress without those rights holders. And that's never a good place to start to say, I thought I could do this without you is sort of a You're going, wait a minute, why did you not come talk to me first? I think that's a really important piece to think about early on. And also it's a good thing to think about because if there is a reason that an estate doesn't want to do something and they're really going to become or or a artist or or a rights holder, a publisher, and you're they're gonna have a problem, this takes so much time and so much effort and so much work. You wanna know that at the beginning. You need to know that you're gonna have that hurdle and you have to weigh what that means in the long run. And I think from our position, it's best to have all the stakeholders on side. And that's part of the why these projects take so long. They they really you have to endear yourself to all these different stakeholders.

Mm, how long do they usually take?

Well, I would say an average of five years at least, which is is a big number. Stax is something that I started in 2018 as you brought up in my bio. And my colleague Michele Smith, who oversees the Stax label at Concord, walked into my office and said, I have a story that you're gonna work on, and it's Stax Records. And I knew very little about the label. I knew you know, I knew Otis Redding, I knew Isaac Hayes, I knew A little bit of the Staples Singers, but I did not know the rich history. And I as soon as she started talking to me about it and giving me some of the context and reading Rob Bowman's book, I was just blown away by how incredible the story was and how far reaching and toward sort of beyond just an artist doc or biopic, you have this incredible. Backstory and context that gave a real why now for why that project should exist. But like I said, it took five years. We started 2018 and it came out in 2024. But it was, you know, it was finished a little bit before that. As you know, the distribution timelines take a minute in terms of when they're actually gonna hit the air. But it's a journey to say the least.

I was thinking when you were talking about it, this is where your political science degree comes in. I find it's such an interesting time. Now, people don't know what I'm talking about, so I think we should show your trailer and let them listen to this or watch this. I think people should watch it. So we're gonna play it. You guys go to YouTube and watch this trailer. Don't just listen. This movie is is incredible. All right, here you go, everybody. Stax: Soulsville U.S.A.

I came to Stax Records because of that sound. Isaac Hayes, Sam and Dave, Carla Thomas, Otis Redding.

[♪ The Staple Singers ♪]

We were energized. successful. That music was where I wanted to be.

[♪ The Staple Singers ♪]

Jim Stewart and his sister Estelle fell in love with black music. Mrs. Axton began to encourage dancing inside. It was an anomaly.

I was working at the record shop. I got to play on some sessions.

Music just brought us together on a real level. There was a feeling, a permission for that magic to happen.

Nobody knew what was happening inside of those doors.

[♪ The Staple Singers ♪]

But there were blacks and whites making the music together, that could have been a problem.

[♪ The Staple Singers ♪]

I knew what Stax was.

[♪ The Staple Singers ♪]

It was a product of creative and rare people.

[♪ The Staple Singers ♪]

It just blew me away.

The time that we were living in. It was hard.

You can suppress a person for so long and they will rise up.

It was our realization of the importance of Stax to the black community.

We were reaching another level. We had not known existed.

We were on top of the world.

But because of its successes and what it represented. Those with the power, they wanted Stax to be erased.

The attitude and the industry for Stax

Is over. I didn't accept that though. I couldn't.

All right, so this is an incredibly timed movie. What was the response?

Oh my gosh, we had such I still get response on this doc. And and we're so lucky that HBO embraced this project and came on early. We were really, really lucky with the team, that whole crew is just so incredible and best in class in terms of how they roll out story and marketing and just I I couldn't be happier with the the project and and where it landed. I think that the artists were really happy. We did a multiple screenings in Memphis and it was so moving to see family members, the living artists that are still with us, and and just so many people connected to the label who were emotionally moved and and really felt like for the first time their stories being honored in the way that we knew but hadn't seen before. So it was just incredible.

That's awesome. That makes me really, really happy, especially as somebody that came from Mississippi and I was raised during integration and remember it vividly and feel very passionately about the importance of that change. So thank you for telling that story, which brings me to my next question. When you are looking at your catalog what tells you that a particular story or movie is not? just a great song or a great group or a great label, but should also be a movie.

So the first threshold question is, would I watch this personally, right? I always you do you have to ask yourself, like what if there was something and I saw that thumbnail and it's this image, am I gonna click on it and watch it? So that's that's a threshold question to begin with. And then the second piece is the why now question, which is what about this story resonates with what's happening in our culture, with the audience that it's meant to reach in terms of the story because I think a lot of people go, is this gonna get young people? I don't think that's the way you should be creating stories. It's why now for the audience you know this is for. And I think you should ask yourself the question, who's the audience and be really honest about it. Whether it's fans, whether it goes beyond fandom, whether it goes into people who are looking for inspirational stories, people who are looking for cathartic stories, people who are looking for escapism. Is it that there's a huge following of this artist, but does that following want to see the behind the scenes or the deeper person? So there's a lot of different ways you can ask yourself those sort of priming business questions, but are also content questions. Because I think right now the the beauty of what we can do with the internet is you can you can quickly Wikipedia someone and get so many Details. And so I always say, is this a Wikipedia story we're telling? Like, is this something that's already out there, or is there more that if you really put your sort of heads together with a creative talent like a Jamila Wignot or an Ezra Edelman or a Lisa Cortés who did Little Richard or a Paris Barclay who did Billy Preston, like when you're talking to somebody who's got this incredible way of looking at the world, are they going to be able to thread this needle around why this is important in the broader culture, in the context of what's happening? And I think especially for docs, you have to have the answer to that question because it's not only the reason that person's going to get involved, but it's the reason people are going to want to watch it and go, I didn't know this. It's not something that's just easily accessible. And I have to see it cinematically, otherwise it It doesn't land emotionally.

oooo that landing emotionally is super important. That's really what we have to have in the midst of those movies for people to even care. So great question. All right. I can't let this podcast go by without talking about The Lunachicks since we both love punk rock music. So did that just get made 'cause you love 'em?

So this is a great example of a project that came into us that was mostly it was it was probably three quarters of the way there. It's it's actually one that Betsy West and Julie Cohen had been talking to me about a different project. And they they called me and said, We've been working with Ilya Chaiken who's edited a lot of our documentaries, but has directed this incredible project about the Lunachicks. Would you watch it and just Tell us what you think. And is there, you know, is there something you think you could help us with in terms of finishing it? And I I don't think they knew I was a punk fan. but I I watched it and went, my God, I love this movie. I think it's really, really fun. I think it's not just a story about a band. It's really a story about women who are in a man's world and are actually able to one. Enjoy the journey they're on together, but you learn a lot from that journey and inspire other women artists, whatever field you're in, to keep pursuing your dreams. And I think that as a theme is so important for everybody. It's important to me in my job. It's important to my friends who are doctors. It's just having this sort of guide. That's really what the film is about. And it and it's fun. It's like watching a movie about your best girlfriends who go through, all the ups and downs and there's some some darker downs in their story, but they figure it out and then they come back together and they play again and it's so much fun.

That's the way I felt when I saw the Go-Go's So I can't wait to watch this movie. And I was not gonna show three trailers in this podcast because it's getting long, but I can't stand

Ha ha ha.

it. I think we have to show the trailer. So everybody, here is the trailer for The Lunachicks

We have it all figured out. Theo's gonna sing, I'm gonna play bass, Sydney's gonna play guitar, and they're like, you can play lead guitar. And I was like, I don't know how to play lead guitar. And they're like, that's okay, we don't know how to play anything either So let's just do it.

Welcome the Lunachicks!

[♪ Lunachicks song ♪]

When I first heard of the Lunachicks, I was like, what is this?

They were tough, they were dirty, gritty.

They were punks, they were rock chicks and they had attitude.

[♪ Lunachicks song ♪]

We played our first show, I think, when we were 18.

I was so angry and nowhere to put it. Getting on that mic and feeling the power. I remember feeling finally...

[♪ Lunachicks song ♪]

Free.

[♪ Lunachicks song ♪]

The Lunachicks tapped into every girl's desire to take down the patriarchy.

Young women could be at the front, express themselves, and know that we were looking out for them. What the f--k are you doing, asshole? Those were our girls

Let's face it, I don't know if America was completely ready for them.

The whole music industry changed and all of a sudden punk rock became mainstream and people were making money.

No, we can't book another female band because we had one playing last month.

In the beginning it was like, oh my god, we're in a band, it's going to be so much fun. But we're also feminists and we're pro-choice and we're still fighting for our choice today.

We really need to do one more show.

The time is now for a Lunachicks reunion. We could do seven or eight shows.

Seven or eight.

Uh-oh, the wheels are turning.

We haven't played together in a very long time. It's a lot of history there.

Who cares how many records you sold?

Those girls are my lifelong sisters.

There are other bands that make more money. But nobody could be us.

[♪ Lunachicks song ♪]

You're good. Yes. 32 years later. How those knees holding up?

[♪ Lunachicks song ♪]

All right, everybody, where can they see The Lunachicks

Well, you should definitely Google it because it's on transactional and it kind of is going through different platforms. So it depends on what you have, but definitely Google the film and you'll be able to find the platform that you use to watch it.

Alright, and we will put that in our show notes. But I hope you guys, if you're only listening, go to YouTube and go watch the trailers and then look down in the show notes and there will be a link. All right, you talked about women, being inspired and really thinking that they really need to keep pursuing their dreams. So I want to address that for just a moment because I told you that you were an inspiration to me. This industry is is challenging. And there are a lot of women out there who have risen to places where a lot of others can't. I want to say kudos to you. What's that been like? Has that been challenging and what things have inspired you and when did you feel like that was a real breakthrough. And what can you say to other women along the way to encourage them?

Well, I think that a lot of this is about finding your people who are allies, right? I've been very fortunate to have a lot of allies in my life who were men and women. I think I when I came to Concord in particular, Scott Pascucci, who hired me, is is not only a mentor, but somebody who was an incredible champion of all of the things I was pursuing. And I think, you know, finding those people that really believe in you are it's so important. It's also important to have a great network of people around you so that when you are facing something that feels like this feels like I'm a woman in a man's world and these things feel like they're it a ceiling hasn't been broken yet, having that network of particularly women who are going through it. And I I find it it's in every field. And so I I have made a point of reaching out to friends of mine and sort of when I go, have you experienced this feeling of, my voice got really small in the room and how did you handle it? And just having that kind of camaraderie helps you to not feel alone. I know we talked a little bit about that. It's even just knowing that other people are facing it sometimes, is the best. way to sort of feel like, okay, I can I can overcome this. It's not just unique to me. And then I think it's really about always, pushing and setting the example that we are in a time where each of us that continues to break ceilings, you've got to go and make sure you're helping the next generation. Continue to be an ally and continue that responsibility when you get there. I take that really seriously. I think it's so important to walk the walk. And I certainly wouldn't be here without so many other women before breaking down walls and barriers to get here. And I so respect how hard that is. And I don't think that work is done. I do think it's just constantly, you know, challenging. Well, well, why is that? And Asking those questions and sometimes it takes a mirror for people to see, I didn't think of it that way, and that I didn't realize that this was the environment I was setting up. So I think there's there's a lot of layers to it. It's not an easily solvable question, but it's something that I think takes all of those pieces, your allies, your your partners, your friends being there with you, knowing you're not alone, and then You know, paying it forward when you break have a breakthrough.

Yeah, somebody said to me once, Try to train up whoever is going to replace you. And so just look around and figure out how you can train up and inspire people who will come in after you. So I think that's great, great advice. Now I'm wondering if you can give some practical tips to people who are new in the business with their documentaries and are trying to figure out music rights and learning the hard way. but let's say give an example where maybe it's it's just not that important. They think I've got this song, it's from nineteen twenty nine and nobody's ever heard of it. And they are just gonna put it in their film and then they realize "Oh my! I need to get the rights cleared for that." But that Can't be found and they don't realize that they probably should get it for, in perpetuity. And they have to figure out how to negotiate those rights on their own because they can't afford a lawyer. How would you advise young filmmakers to go into that situation or those negotiations?

Well, I always say context matters. If you find yourself in a position where you're talking to a music publisher or a record label or an artist, and especially if you're you've got a really, really tight budget, you gotta you gotta say it. You gotta say, here's who I am. I am creating this project. I've made it for this amount of money. I am trying desperately to make this work and it's such an important song to this scene and here's why. And then equally, if you can share that clip, if you can show what you're trying to achieve and then say, and and really this is all I have and I I need I really need help to be able to accomplish it. I think particularly in the doc world, so many people are empathetic to that. I think if you're a giant studio and you've got a huge budget and you're trying to say, I don't have the money to license the song. That's not gonna fly. But I think if you're really an independent filmmaker, I do feel that behind every door at every music company, there are real people who are looking at these things and understand that, you know, where they're trying to reach a new audience too. So it's really about context. and being communicative. And like I said, it's it's even acknowledging that you need the rights is so important. I think a lot of people just kind of go and throw it up and then go, I'll deal with that problem later. And that's never a good place to be in. I think if you're going into a company and you say, I desperately need this song and here's why. How can we work together on this? Here's my plans. Here's what's the reality of the distribution. I do think that most companies will hear that and try to work with you.

Awesome. Great advice. All right. Two more questions. Derivative rights to more than 5,000 titles, remade sequels, stories, stage, producing things. I honestly cannot picture what your job is really like. So let's say it's a typical Wednesday, Thursday, you come in, you look at your desk. What do you do?

Well, it's a great question about prioritizing titles that I think are gonna work. It goes back to what we're we talked about earlier. It's sort of what are the things that why now they have to there what's the urgency behind them? So if I'm looking at my lists of priorities, I'm going, this project's gotta get made because of these particular reasons. I think in the scripted side of our business, it's a little bit easier to find the things that we know have a certain amount of pre awareness to them and then that we know talent's gonna get excited by. So that's a slightly different model. I think when I'm looking at the doc side of our business, it's become extremely scrutinized in terms of why this story, why now I can't just be, we're here and we're gonna tell every story about every artist under our roof that just it's not gonna be good for everybody and and anyone if we get out there and no one sees the film. So it's really using those questions as a guide. I am, as you can imagine. not sleeping a ton because I oversee a lot, but that's because I love what I do. I'm so passionate about this space and and storytelling. I feel so lucky that I get to do this every day. and I don't take it for granted. I really, really know that it takes a lot of hard work and that things shift in an instant. I've had so many projects that were on the precipice of going and getting finance that have fallen apart and you just have to keep trying over and over and over again. So I use that guide of relentless passion for what you're working on. If you don't have that, when you face those hurdles, you're gonna give up. And if you have it and you care deeply about what you're trying to do, you're gonna get that hurdle and you're gonna go, okay, it didn't work. How do I pivot? How do I get it made? And that's how I face every day. So you know it takes a lot of caffeine, but you get through it.

Great advice. All right, last one. I'd like to know what you'd like to say to our audience, summing up what you really want people to know about Concord, about your films, what you're passionate about, sort of like your closing argument to our listening audience.

Well, I think what I would love the takeaway to be is I think that we are a premier company that loves to champion our artists, elevate voices, and impact culture. That's sort of our guiding principle. And I like to think that as a company that is is a potential ally for artists, for filmmakers, for storytellers, we are a group that you should want to work with if you want to tell your story. So I I always say that. But I think at the end of the day, I hope people realize that it's a storytelling medium and you have to find the things that people care about and are inspiring to get things over the line. So I just always say that use these kinds of things that you're listening to that are inspiring you to do what you're doing and take that passion and and apply it to whatever you you feel called to communicate, create, do. And I think that applies to every field, film, TV, otherwise.

Beautiful advice. Well, you are an inspiration to me by what you do, by the things you've said in this podcast. I really appreciate your time and the lessons that you shared today. I'm gonna ask you for one more thing if you don't mind. We have a section here called DocuView Deja Vu, Where we ask everyone to share a film that they think our audience may not have seen, but is special to them.

There's so many good ones. I'll say on the doc side, one of my favorite docks is a deep cut doc that Greg Whiteley did called The New York Doll, about Arthur Killer Kane, who's in the New York dolls, and it's his journey of trying to find his family history. And it's a quirky, fun doc, and and it has sort of a heartbreaking story in it. You can watch that film and see how Greg went on to do and I don't know him personally, but I'm a fan of his work. You can see how he went on to do Cheer, eventually, for Netflix. There's just a lot of heart and warmth in it. And it's one of those stories that you can tell was a follow doc that had some surprises in it because, you know, we all love the Icarus and those kinds of films. But I think that film is one that I always go, you know, I'm a punk fan, so it's fun to watch, but it's also It it's one that I think is a surprise. And and I'm trying to think if there's any others. I another one that I I don't even know where you can watch this one, but Science Fair is another one I really enjoyed that I saw at South by Southwest it's a teenager driven story about teenagers competing in the science fair. And it's it's so fun. It's again, it's sort of these like these are human stories that I think when you watch films like that, again, they're not the mainstream, they're not the ones that made it necessarily into the the top ten, but when you when you look at them you realize, there's so much magic in like following a real human story. And I just those are the films I always love.

That's great. Thank you for sharing that. All right, Sophia Dilley everybody from Concord and now RKO. I guess is it still gonna keep the name RKO? Yeah.

Oh Yeah! We're keeping the brand for sure.

All right. Sounds great. Thank you so much for being here. It's been a pleasure. We really have enjoyed it. Hope you'll come back.

Thanks for having me.

All right, everybody, this has been Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a story to tell and you can be the one to tell it. Bye everybody.