What went down in the distant past of that galaxy far, far away? Christian Ashley and his buddy, the ever-knowledgeable Joe Dea, dive right into the Star Wars timeline before 4000 BBY, uncovering the mythology and lore that shaped the universe we know and love. They kick things off with a discussion on the Celestials, those ancient, god-like beings responsible for some epic galaxy-scale engineering projects, before jumping into the Rakata and their dark empire that sent shivers down the spines of countless civilizations. With their trademark casual banter, they also touch on the Je'daii, the proto-Jedi who walked the line between light and dark, and the Pius Dei Crusades, exploring how religion and humanity's darker impulses played a role in shaping the galaxy's history. So, strap in, folks, because this episode's about to take you on a wild ride through Star Wars history, packed with insights and a sprinkle of humor.

In a galaxy far, far away, Christian and Joe take listeners on an epic exploration of the Star Wars universe, tackling its timeline from 25,000 to 4,000 BBY. They kick things off with a light-hearted banter about the challenge of covering such a vast lore, poking fun at the plethora of obscure material that exists in both Legends and canon. With a relaxed tone, they set the stage for a deep dive into the history of Star Wars, bringing humor and clever insights to the discussion. The duo’s dynamic is apparent as they debate the merits of Legends continuity versus canon, with Joe championing the former as a treasure trove of storytelling potential.

They discuss the Celestials, enigmatic beings credited with galaxy-scale engineering, and the Rakata, whose dark empire serves as a cautionary tale of tyranny. Their exploration touches on the complexities of these ancient species, blending humor with critical analysis of their roles in shaping the galaxy.

As the episode unfolds, Christian and Joe reflect on their personal journeys into the Star Wars universe, sharing their favorite media and memories. They emphasize the importance of exploring lesser-known narratives and the untapped potential of the galaxy’s history. With wit and charm, they craft a narrative that feels both engaging and insightful, leaving listeners with a newfound appreciation for the depth of Star Wars lore.

Takeaways:

• The podcast dives deep into the Star Wars timeline before 4000 BBY, exploring the rich lore and history of the galaxy.
• Christian and Joe shed light on the Celestials, ancient beings whose mythic actions shaped the universe's structure and narratives.
• Listeners are treated to a discussion on the Rakata, the first major empire to harness dark side powers and how they impacted galactic politics.
• The episode highlights the importance of Legends continuity, emphasizing its depth and richness compared to the current canon materials.
• Christian and Joe debate the merits of various Star Wars media, from video games to novels, showcasing the diverse storytelling available to fans.
• They also touch on the potential for future stories in the Star Wars universe, especially regarding the underdeveloped themes of religion and morality.

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Listen to our other Star Wars episodes:

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Check out other episodes with Christian:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/ebf4b064-0672-47dd-b5a3-0fff5f11b54c

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Check out other episodes with great guests like Joe:

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What happened in the distant past of a galaxy far, far away? We're gonna be asking this question and a lot more on today's episode of Cismak Ecology. We are the priests and the geeks.

I'm your host, Christian Ashley. As we are going through the entirety of Star Wars. You heard me.

The entirety of Star wars doesn't actually mean the entirety of Star wars, but it means a lot of Star Wars. And Will and I a couple weeks back did an episode, kind of like an overview of like everything.

But, like, this is where we get into the nitty gritty of a lot of st. We're not going to cover every single thing that was ever released because, you know, not all of us have experienced it, number one. And number two, some of it is so obscure, like, you'd have to really pirate stuff.

And not everyone has, you know, my moral flexibility on that issue to get to some of that stuff. So it's not just me here today.

We had to call in an audible, you know, not as in like we needed someone else here who couldn't do this, but like, as someone like, who knows his Star wars lore has covered it multiple times over on one of his many channels, former host of the show, Joe Day. How's it going, Joe?

What's up? Glad to hear.

I'm glad to be here to talk about an era of Star wars that is firmly entrenched in Legends continuity, which I will start off by saying the hot button thing. Legends continuity is exponentially better than the canon stuff.

You'll get no argument from me. Once again, it is not flawless, but you know what? It's ten times better. And that's.

It brings up an interesting issue in that, okay, we're going through the history, like literal history, but of Star wars as a universe. We are starting technically 25,000 to 4,000 BBY. We'll get to that in a moment. But yes, we will be covering both legends and canon material.

And I'll get to that in a moment. Like how we're doing that. So before we head that way, Joe, what have you been geeking out on recently?

Well, I am about halfway through Star Trek. Discovery fell into that one because I was looking for a new Star Trek to. To watch. And seriously, I would. I would strong suggest watching this one.

It is one of the best Star Trek series that I have watched thus far.

I was almost waiting for the parody moment, but you sound quite sincere. I have the opposite view and I'm.

Glad that you feel that way on Discovery.

Discovery is trash. My Friend.

Oh, for more of this odd couple nonsense. Me letting Christian know just how wrong he is sort of vibe, you can find us once a month on the.

YouTube channel, which we will be doing the week of this recording on the Mary Celeste, if that interests you. So, yeah, I, on the other hand, have been watching a lot of Schlock, a lot of really good stuff and a lot of in between.

And that's because I've been going through the entire history of horror and film, starting from the very beginning.

At a time where lots of films and lots of people were racist, this was like, hey guys, you don't know if I'm a racist. Let me just put it on my sleeve right here.

Everyone can see, but Son of Engagi is done as an all black film made by one of the earliest African American directors. Sorry. Based on his work. Spencer Williams, another man, Richard Kahn, directed it. And it's so much better.

Like you can tell, like, yeah, they were using it for brand recognition, but also it's like, hey, that's what you made. Watch what we can make.

And it's not a perfect film by any stretch of the imagination, but like the history behind it is something I find more way fascinating than the movie.

Very fascinating.

All right, so that's what we were geeking out on now into getting into the start. Even though technically we did start with the overview of everything. This is kind of the start of like the beginning of the series itself.

25,000 To 4,000 BBY. And sort of things you're going to be saying, well, Christian Joe, like these things don't actually happen then.

Well, that's a result of me, when I'm writing the list for all this, giving what I did for the sake of simplicity, putting stuff up there. So when Joshua was compiling how he wanted some of these episodes to be done, that's how it ended up this way.

So technically speaking, we'll be going over a very long period of time due to the infrequency of published works around this area. So there's a ton of stuff that just isn't built up because no one told a story in it as well.

So once again, sake of simplicity, putting them all together. Here we're not going to cover everything in these books, everything in these comics that have come out.

But like kind of get our thoughts, general thoughts on them because you already we don't want this episode to go on too long. And I know you're all laughing because you heard the names Christian and Joe and you said, well, I'll see you two hours later.

We're going to attempt to deny ourselves. We're going to fail, but we're going to attempt anyways.

So as well, I want to shout out before we actually begin the discussion here, that there are two people out there. I do not know their names, but they made the definitive list of all canon material based around the time and it happens in.

And a second person made one for all the Legends material. And every time that year that happened in, I don't know their names, all I saw were like charts on Reddit and Wikipedia.

But no one that I saw attributed them.

So if you know who they are, let me know because I really want to thank them because they did a stellar job, no joke intended there with what they did here. So that's it. So, Joe, I've used the phrase BBY multiple times over.

What does that mean before the Battle of Yevon. So basically it's to denote everything that is it everything that happens pre Death Star. That's bby.

Yeah, everything. Technically a New Hope is zero bby, as it were.

Right.

When you start to get into the different sections of the timeline like that, that's really where it becomes the most evident that the, the Star wars timeline as a whole kind of came after the initial idea. Yes. Lucas had more fleshed out. Like he, he knew that he was picking up partway through the story all of that sort of jazz.

But this was not fully fleshed out. And so this was basically something out to denote everything that happens pre the what, 70 years or so. That takes that.

That that's the most flushed out and famous within the Star wars universe thereabouts.

And I believe technically Speaking There is a 0 BBY and a 0 ABY. That's not how we date things, but I think in universe that's how it done. Like the idea being is that this is a huge cultural important moment here.

The fall of the Empire, like after the fall of the Old Republic. Like we've got to start a new dating system to like mark things from here on out. You know, much the same way we don't know when Jesus was born.

You'll have people say, you know, 6 BC if they want to be wrong. They can say BCE you'll have other people say, you know, 2 AD or what have you. Like, the point being, it's like, well, it's as good as day to day.

We'll just put that there. And this is how we're going to mark things from here on out. And that's what they do in the Star wars verse here.

Yeah, yeah. All right.

So these are very, very, very varied. Sorry to use that word, back to back time lines here. But like, what was your introduction to these various time periods?

So I, I like most of a particular vintage, started off with 4, 5 and 6, and then 1, 2 and 3. And then after that was when I started getting into the what. What's now known as Legends.

It wasn't the, it wasn't considered legends at the point, just. Oh, people wrote books and people did created content that's extracurricular from, from the movies and all of that.

And then a couple of years ago, I set out to try to read everything and it's difficult because some of it is about as close to lost media as you can get. It's. It's pretty hard to find some of some of the books and, and all of that.

That's when I found the chart of the different time frames of the universe and the books that are associated with them. And that's when I found into the Void and started learning about this era.

Yeah, me, my introduction to this is a media that we'll be covering, I think, next time.

And that is of course Knights of the Old Republic, the video game where they mentioned a lot of the things that happen in the Tales of the Jedi period with the, the Sith War and everything there and the Freedon add stuff. It's like. So all these proper nouns would like next to nothing to me as like a 12, 13 year old when that game came out.

But at the same time it's like, oh, they're talking about something more. What is that thing? Well, I eventually read the graphic novels that came out for all these, got into that lore a lot.

Then when it comes to into the Void, the dawn of the Jedi stuff that was way later on, I didn't get into when initially came out because I was a lot poor at that time. So I wasn't able to, you know, invest as much as I wanted to into the comics and the books.

But eventually, years later on, I read them after having heard about what would have been where they were going in some of the books until like the Disney merger happened. And as a result, all Legends was Cut off. So that meant any plot threads they had from there were also likewise cut off.

Yeah, and that's, that's where like you. That's part of why I don't take seriously the. The Legends versus canon debate. Because some of the best material that.

That's extracurricular to the core canon was was created at that point and was already. Was already in existence.

And when you know that it's just about what can we monetize and what do we not want to deal with, you know, writing around or anything else like that. And it's not about the care of the actual story, then it becomes a non issue at that point.

Yeah. And these weren't the only ones affected by.

You also had a Knights of Old Republic comics affected by to an extent the Legacy comics, when they were doing the rebrand with it, were affected by the merger.

The books we were going to get after the Fate of the Jedi series, we're going to show how Jana Sola became the night, excuse me, became goodness gracious, what are they called? The Sword of the Jedi. Which as Jaina Solo's number one fan, it's my favorite Star wars character I was really looking forward to.

But unfortunately that doesn't exist anymore. So. And this is not a Disney bashing session. Let me go ahead and put that out there.

Like we have our issues with canon, but like it's brought some good things to it too. But there are still feelings left behind that kind of linger after that.

All right, so you say when we start with prehistory, lots of things that happened even before the dawn of the Jedi series. And so in the midst of it, why don't you talk about the celestials real quick and what they, how they matter to the Star wars universe.

So for anybody that's unaware of this era, because like Christian said at the top, really this is one of the least flushed out eras. Like when we're talking about this giant chunk of time. Right.

That, that, that Christian mentioned at the beginning, it sounds like how are you gonna possibly cover that much? That's because like three things were during this time and, but, but the things that were created for this time are huge in scale and scope.

You're talking about aspects of the universe that like if you don't like metichlorians, if you don't like hyper scientific explanations behind the Force, and you like some of that more mythological side of Star wars, this, this is your area. Even though it's not really flushed out, you're talking about outside of anything that even remotely Resembles the Skywalker saga.

And so that's where you get into the. The celestials. So one of the most mythic parts of Star wars lore. They're ancient and almost incomprehensible beings that are tied to the force.

Their big thing is that they're credited with like, galaxy scale engineering projects that as time would go on, Would start to give way to some of the more familiar aspects of the Star wars universe. One of the biggest things to to talk about here is that they make ancient Star wars feel closer to mythology than a history lesson.

And they do feats like restructuring whole systems. And by around 30,000 BBY, they've all.

They've already largely withdrawn from the galaxy, which makes it feel like they're closer to like lost gods Than main characters in Star wars stories.

Yeah, these are the movers and shakers of the past, the people of legend who have done a lot of amazing things that are left behind what has survived to the current present of the Star wars universe in the fact that no one really knows who they were. There's very little written about them as time went on in the canon.

You may recall the Clone wars episode Where Anakin meets the father, the son, and the daughter. These are later on kind of retconned into being members of the celestial race. In canon, they're just known as force wielders.

So there's a divide between legends of canon there. And one of the things behind that idea being is that they were just so super powerful, so in tune with the force.

They were capable of feats that no other person would be able to do. And that's where we get things like center point station in the Corellia system.

This is huge super weapon that can like destroy pretty much anything in its path and is used like twice in legends canon. Both times not terribly well for the people who wanted to use it.

Well, then we get things like the Maul cluster, which are a bunch of these black holes around this section Close to Kessel, where we get the Kessel Run from where there's a lot of ancient stuff hidden around there. We'll eventually get Abeloth from that in the legends continuity. And some people are saying she may even be in Ahsoka. Who knows as time goes on.

So yeah, we've got this unknown group of entities like they existed before a lot of other races. They did a lot of things and left behind what they did. Where they are now, no one really knows. Did they become one with the force? Who knows?

That's kind of the big mystery.

Of them, I will say so, so to the, to the credit. So I'm, I'm, you know, I, I, you know, you guys know me.

For those of you that don't, that don't know me, when, when I was a frequent host of sg, I was known for my heel takes. I love being a heel on the air. But I will say that there is one piece of Star wars media post, uh, post mouse that I really dug.

And, and if you think I'm going to stop being controversial now, it's Book of Boba Fett. I really enjoyed that. It's true though. I love you.

What have you done with Joe?

Oh, seriously, I, seriously, I really enjoyed it. But all of that being said, if Abeloth was brought in, I would give the mouse a chance. I would give Disney, Star Disney Star Wars a chance.

Because you're now firmly in Grandmaster Luke territory in some of the most compelling large scale storytelling territory for me in all of Legends. And so like that, that would be, that would be dope. But yeah, so, so, so yes, it's. And, and that's, that's really why, why I bring all of that up. I.

One of the things about this era is it is closer to C. Zulu esque Eldritch horror, things like that, where the, the celestials were these closer to abstract beings that weren't so closely uniformed for monetization purposes with the rest of what we know as civilization within the Star wars universe. They weren't afraid to make them actual like abominations or actual like mythological creatures.

And so when you look at some of the older stories about the celestials, even though they are fewer and farther between they, they are written about in terms of like Greek gods rather, rather than like fully flushed out stories. So they're more conceptual than they are actual concrete.

And so when you're looking at these large scale movements, it's almost like Tolkien in a way where the, the mythological side of Tolkien all is very grand. It's all very big.

And it doesn't necessarily, for as much as Tolkien likes to tell you what everybody had for breakfast, the mythological side is not nearly as every single eye dotted and every single T crossed.

And so if you are a person that has looked at mainstream Star wars and said this is all very stagnant to technologically, sociologically, all of that sort of jazz.

And you would want to see how all of that was initially created, especially when you are familiar with the geography or the architecture or the technology of the Star wars universe.

This is the era where you get all of that looking at the Celestials, what they did was create large scale things that then got flushed out and disseminated into the. The what. What we know as the modern Star wars universe. Yeah.

And this is a result of multiple retcons and alike. It's not like a Star wars writer sat down one day and said oh yes, I'm making this with the design of the Celestials.

Made this note later people came on know who were in charge of continuity and the like and said okay, this makes sense if someone like them made it, you know. And you know what, that's how it worked back in the day. I don't really know how it works now.

I'm sure there's someone who's still in charge of Star wars continuity. I'd like to meet them and ask them what they're doing. But you know what, I'm not going to go any further.

So next up on our docket we have the Rakata, Joe. The rakata.

So the Rakata are the first truly major ancient galactic empire in continuity. Their infinite empire would conquer force rich worlds and they would enslave whole populations.

They Perry, they powered a lot of their technology through what we would come to know as dark side energy of force, sensitive beings. A big part of the story that they or a big part of the flavor that they bring is horror.

They are, when they are talked about, they are talked about more in terms of the boogeymen of old, the true villains of old. And that's where a lot of the flavor of this era when you're going back that far is closer to horror.

And that's part of why when I look at the canon and the continuity and the history of Star wars as a whole, I'm talking about all of Star wars screw legend in, in canon. I'm talking about anything that has been created under the umbrella of Star Wars. Dude, there's something for everybody.

Like yes, I get on here and I make fun of people who like canon stuff and all of that sort of stuff, but seriously, if you like it, awesome.

But like for the love of everything that's holy sells itself a horror themed Star wars movie where the ratta or the are are the of the day on the big screen. Come on. And don't hold back from making it R rated. Yes. Not everything needs to be kid friendly within Star Wars. You can make stuff for adults.

I'm just saying that that sells. That sells itself. But yeah. So in, in terms of what this would be for like a modern Star wars fan that's never gone back.

The this is the first clear ex of ancient tyranny. And they also help bridge the pre Republic section into dawn of Jedi.

Dawn of the Jedi because the rakata become one of the first major outside threats in that material. So so very much proto dark side.

Yeah, in many ways they're proto Sith to an extent. They're this outside threat that came from the Unknown Regions and start laying waste to everything in their.

Do you know what a reason that Tatooine is a desert planet? Well, they glassed it because the people there fought back against them. You want to know what this Star Forge thing is?

We'll play Knightsfield Republic on the next episode. But this is what. I love them as a species because they look so weird and goofy. You would think, oh, they can't possibly be a threat.

But then what appears to be weird and goofy looking with like the little side eyes and fish like appearance is actually completely and utterly horrible and terrible because they laid waste to everything in front of them.

They enslaved Force users for their own intents there to guide them to other Force users so they can enslave them, fueling themselves with the dark side. Before that was called the dark side. Magnificent villains.

And when you actually meet them in Knightsfield Republic and the then present and go, these guys are losers now, it's like, well, you kind of earned every bit of being a loser now because you, you, you got beat back for a reason.

Yeah. And that's that. So these are villains that are not going to turn around and become anti heroes. Yes. They are not redeemable in any way, shape or form.

And so, and they're not, they're, they're designed like the, like the Celestials. They're not sanitized. And, and that's where that, that's one of the things for me that I love about this stuff.

So all so, so truth to tell, when I first found this and I was. And I was reading the, the books initially in this era, I'm like, this is so slow. Like this is so.

This is, this is so tame in comparison to the, the Skywalker Saga. You know, just, just honestly. But I realized this is world building before it's anything else.

And that, and, and, and this is, this reminded me of what it felt like initially watching 4, 5 and 6 and why for me 4, 5 and 6 is my star wars and why I'm not. I'm, I'm, I'm a fan. I've become more of a fan of 1, 2 and 3 because it's showcasing another world.

And in another world, things look different, things look menacing. And that's, that's where for me this really like marries a. Well, a well laid out villain with a well laid out design.

Absolutely. Yeah. But for the sake of time. Time, let's go to our next one. The Keelix.

So they're one of the. The more underused ancient species in Star Wars. In Legends, they're an ancient insectoid hive species that's associated with yagoi. I'm gonna say.

I'm gonna pronounce it. You know, grammar experts within the Star wars universe can feel free to come with me. Yep. But.

But they also have deep ties to places like Alderaan and other early galactic sites. They.

They are again, part of the contributing factor that makes it feel like a very old galaxy was populated first and foremost by non human civilizations with their own ways of thinking and. And remembering.

So they're less central than the Rakata, but they're great for showing what ancient Star wars looked like beyond just Proto Jedi and Proto Sith.

Yeah, And I misspoke earlier. The Kiliks are actually the one who made Centerpoint Station under the direction of the Celestials.

And the reason they did that is because Kiliks are great builders. They look like horrifying bug monsters of different varieties. You could use centipede types and others. And I don't like them one bit. I hate bugs.

I hate everything that they do. And the Keylix are no friend of mine.

The Swarm War, the Desk, Excuse Me Darkness trilogy that we get them from post new Jedi Order, where it explains their current origins. Now in the Unknown Regions fighting against the Chiss. And now the Republic. Excuse me, the Galactic Federation.

And then going back into the past of how they might have fought against the Rakata, they might have fought against the Celestials as well. Done quite well. Because I don't want them to win. I don't want them anywhere near me. Maybe that's specious.

I mean, probably. But not a jury in the world would convict when you're talking about horrifying bug monsters.

I suppose I'd have to make my peace with that. If we ever make contact with another such race God made. And I couldn't really hate his other creations like that. But you know what?

That's going to take some time. I might be that racist grandpa for a while.

See our Friday Streams about the differing opinions that Christian and I have about extraterrestrial life.

Yeah. So then we get Zim the Despot. And I put the Hutts here as well, because they're an early galactic civilization.

Because 25,000 BBY is when the Republic actually forms. So the Hutts were united before this.

Right. So Zim is again one of the classic ancient tyrant figures in legends continuity. A pre Republic warlord who built a large empire in the Tian Cluster.

His story is even more interesting because he's eventually defeated in the Zim wars by the Hutts during the. The third Battle of Zontor. And it basically his. He is basically the catalyst for this, the. The. The cementing of the Hutt dynasty. Yes.

Yeah.

He makes different military plays over, you know, the Tian Cluster and many other places affecting what would become the Republic as well as the Hutt Cartel and kind of providing an impetus for both to unify a little more in their own spheres of influence. So they could fight against him because he was winning pretty much for a while until eventually he is a. He is killed.

And fun fact as well for the Knightsfield Republic series.

For the original one, you may remember the side mission of the General Haradan, the secret bounty hunter organ that like does assassinations and controls things from behind the scenes. They start from his empire. So they had been around at that point in time for almost 20,000 years. 21,000 Years. Yeah, thereabouts.

I just love it when you bring things together like that. That's why I love a big universe like this where you can connect things from other time periods. It's just great. Yeah.

You'll find more about him from some of the Han Solo books. You also kind of get the corporate sector and different Han Solo books in that region. So that's it from there. Then we get to.

And I misspelled this in the outline because this is. I put Jedi and that's what Yuuzhan Bong called Jedi. I meant Je'dai, the Jedi Order taken away, which will bring us into dawn of the Jedi.

So the je'daii are the Proto Jedi on Tython. Their core concept is not the. The emphasis that you would see later on with the Jedi in its balance. They study a lot of different disciplines.

They acknowledge both the light and the dark. And Tython itself reacts violently to force imbalance.

So they feel spiritually and philosophically different from the later Jedi Order and more closely reflect what a lot of people think of when they think of like Ahsoka and Gray Jedi and the. The marrying of the light and the dark together. Yes.

Yeah. This one. I'm not as familiar with dawn the Jedi stuff. I've read them, but I Don't haven't retained much of them. So.

So the Dawn. Dawn of the Jedi comics are a series of comics that basically out the. The early or the early conflict and they with. In.

In during this time period and basically a series of. Of arcs that establish the like. Like an origin layer for this.

This time which gives some content to it, but not really like enough to fully flush out what's happening during this time.

This is an era like pretty much 10,000 years before the start of what we said, 25,000 BBY, where ships are capable of traveling interstellar distances, but the ones that they're using at the very beginning are older, possibly celestial in design. It's kind of of like up in the air on that because it wouldn't be until we reversed engineered. I say we as if I was there. The.

The technology left behind by the rakata that the Republic is formed and they're able to travel more extensively and that's when it can give more expansionists and can travel to other places. So like spaces like a huge unknown to a lot of people. The civilization here. We're meeting them for the first time and yeah, it's. It's a fun series.

I do remember that I couldn't remember a single character's name that saved my life from either the books or comics, but I do remember enjoying them.

Yeah. So.

So as far as characters specifically from the comics, you've got Zesh, who is huge because he gives you like an outsider insider perspective of the era. And then you have some of the.

Yeah, then you have some of the younger Jedi characters and then figures like Daijan Luck that help drive like a sense of or of order spiritually and politically that are really some of the main characters that. That drive. That drive the story for the comics.

I do remember like the. The ship that are kind of like the catalyst of the story, like plucking people from different worlds, bringing them back to Tython.

Like there's even like a Sith there because the Sith as a species are different from Sith Dark side users. We'll get to that in a little bit more when we get to the tail stuff.

But this is yeah, definitely something you wouldn't expect from an early comic like this. But they do a good enough job now when it comes to into the Void. Joe. Like what's. What's this one about?

So into the Void, this is a book that you've got to.

In order to jump into this one, you've got to be okay with the idea that you are going to be reading something that like if you're into like Wild west type stories where it's more about like almost like in the An Unfinished world. This, this is, this is something that you, that you may really enjoy. So into the Void is.

That takes place concurrent with For Storm from the comics, but it's telling its own story and showing bits of the, the world that isn't shown in the comics. So it's less of a retelling and companion piece. And so this is basically the main doorway into the Jedi era.

So the where, where the comics are more of like a mythic framework for the era. This is more of the nuts and bolts that you get from the time period itself.

Yeah, yeah, I remember because he's typically a horror writer, Levin, I've got a couple of his books that I've read. He's pretty great there. Into the Void was not what I was expecting as far as a Star wars story.

But it's a very effective story in like building up the world around like this era and just explaining these different things that you're going to have to do a lot of work because you're literally the first person novel wise who is doing this at this point in time. And that's ahead of heavy thing to do. And I think he does an effective enough job.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and he, he writes it from a standpoint that allows for, for storytelling that takes place before like the, for lack of a better phrase, theology of the Star wars universe.

And the Jedi is fully cemented and allows you to see some of these building blocks that take place before some of the more notable things really start to solidify.

Okay. All right.

Yeah.

So for the sake of time, let's go ahead and move forward to the Pius DEI Crusades. These are something that no book has been written on. These happen about 11,000, 12,000 years BBY. I forgot to look at it up before I said those words.

And this is time. The Republic is active. There's talk of like integrating the huts inside the Republic at this point in history.

But what happens is that a humano centric group starts raising rising up throughout the galaxy.

Anti alien sentiment is spread around and you essentially get like a religious figurehead become the supreme chancellor who starts anti human crusades against these different alien groups and starts rallying people around him them to like essentially commit genocide over multiple different planets and the like. So this is found in the new essential chronology is I believe the first time it's ever like truly brought up and like fleshed out.

So just Once again, not a book based around it. Joe, do you remember anything else about this?

Yeah, so, so, and, and it's, it's in, it's important to note like when you're looking at the, the, the dawn of the Jedi stuff that happens before this and pretty much everything that happens before, you're talking about larger than life characters met with larger than life situations.

So like in, in the book you're talking about big cosmic level things going on and the Jedi Order being called, called upon to stop like cosmic level threats and things like that.

And so this is taking that sort of big and bombastic period of time and rending it back in and telling a smaller scale story that is more human centric, more militaristic and religious in nature that exists mostly as reference, not a major story point, but is a, at least a thread to be able to start to draw out what is largely underserved in the Star wars universe.

And that's, that's the religious side of it because you're talking about different, different groups, different planets, different parts of the galaxy, all of this wide swath and all of that.

And in a, in a world, in a part of the world that is incredibly underserved, this is a huge piece of background world building that, that flushes out what, like this, this rich history that only happens basically in the margins. So it's, it's not so much of a. Okay, so now we're going to give you a. On this part of the story because that in all reality is not there.

But again, where this era really shines the brightest is it gives you puzzle pieces and building blocks that are best taken as whole. Other parts of like, as, as a whole section and era that you can look at. Yeah, yeah.

Put this in here for the reason I, the multiple reasons I find it fascinating.

Number one, because if you go to legends, you'll find that Palpatine has very humanocentric beliefs that are not really in canon as much or if at all, and like his hatred of other non human species and the like. So this had to come from somewhere and you have historical precedent for it here. I love that idea. Once again, it fleshes the world out more.

It's like in this period you can literally, literally write whatever you want without advancing to technology being like the exception because nothing's written, so you're in charge. And the idea of doing something like that fascinates me. And the other is of course the religious aspect.

Yeah, I could easily say, oh no, it's just another someone else Is saying, oh no, religion bad. But like, no, like that's a surface level reading. Yes, but what, what brought society to this point, galactic society?

Like, why would other races who weren't human actually align with a humano centrist group like this? I, so I bring it all to say, like, do you feel like a religion in Star wars is undeveloped as a whole?

And like when something like this comes out, we just try and like grab it and hope for the best and like, just have what we can.

Yeah, and I think that's part of what, I think that's, that's part of the story for so much of Star Wars. But the, like this, this whole era is underdeveloped.

We have pieces that almost, that almost act like polaroids of like snapshots of this, of this time period. And there's so much in between that you could write. And if written well, you don't disrupt anything. You just add.

And that's, and that's one of the beautiful parts of this is there's so much room to add. So is it underdeveloped? Hell yeah, it's underdeveloped.

But what, what if we look at this from the standpoint of what made a lot of us fall in love with Star wars from the first place? Yeah. If you have a bone to pick with organized religion and you're gonna read into this and say, oh, see, religion bad.

Okay, great, let's maybe advance to 201 level. Well, what if we're in a world where things are happening off screen?

And that's what I've talked to many people who started in the same era that I did that grew up with the untampered with original trilogy that before any of the additions were made, watching them on VHS for the very first time. And I hear the same thing consistently. It's a world where it feels like things are happening beyond just the reaches of the camera.

And that's where this sort of varied storytelling that isn't afraid to go from big and bombastic to smaller scale and more political and religious is perfect to give you different aspects, different on ramps for different types of fans.

Yeah, absolutely. There's so much untapped potential in these long eras of history that you can do literally whatever you want. That's one thing.

But then going to the religious aspect, like, I can only remember one other time reading through Star wars where I felt like religion mattered for at least a tiny bit. And that was, I think it was part of the new Jedi Order close to the beginning.

I think it was Maybe the agents of chaos duology, where, like, this religious order is brought up and their beliefs are mentioned, and that's about it. And you gotta think, with a galaxy with thousands of thousands of alien species, why haven't we really, like, seen what they think?

Like, what religion do they practice? Is there anything that unifies multiple, you know, alien species together? Like, do people worship Jedi? Do they worship the Force?

Like, there's things that are kind of brought up in certain aspects. That way you have different Sith cultists and the like for their side of things, but there's not really, like. I mean, it's.

It doesn't have to be a state religion or anything like that. But, like, give me, give me, you know, something like, how did different Jedi look at the Force differently?

Like, Qui Gon is perfect for that in his views of the living Force and the unifying Force compared to other Jedi, where, like, these are strict dogma here. We're going to look at it this way.

You get to the new Jedi Order trilogy, not trilogy, group of books, and you have Jason Solo experiencing the things he does with Verger and seeing the Force in a new way when it changes Luke's order until they, you know, backtrack. Because we can't have nuance on our Star Wars. That's a separate issue. Like, yeah, give me something.

Yeah, yeah. And that's. And. And that's where, like, like, all jokes aside for. In, like, for real, that. That's where my. My.

If I had one single hope for the future of Star wars. And it's really the thing that bums me out the most about.

About the mouse, owning it is the mouse is going to go with the money maker, and the money maker is the Skywalkers, because it's the most. It's the most recognizable, it's the most monetizable, all of that sort of stuff.

But such a huge, expansive universe has been created, and there are so many stories to tell in each era that you can have something for everybody. You can tell a different kind of story that varies it up without trampling on the same continuity over and over and over again. Yes.

Because we're talking about a long distance of time here.

And then when you look at the different books, even in Legends of how much takes place within a short amount of time, how many different wars happen in a short amount of time? You kind of go, okay, this is a little too much for me. We can't keep having this happen every five seconds. What is it that Mr. Incredible says?

Can you like the Planet be safe for like one day or something so I can have time off. Like, let's just move on. I butchered that quote.

Right, right, exactly.

It's great. Like, gosh, I mean, this is so much fun. We could talk further, but we're actually for us on Good Time.

So I'm going to start ending things and say that if you're interested in a bonus question we'll be doing, you can head our way over to Fourth Wall and join us as a member there. Every now and then we'll send some special free ones out there, if you like that.

The question we're going to ask is, you know, with the basically 21,000 years we have here, is there a. Cannot speak with these allergies specific time in history where we would have liked to have seen stuff explored more.

It could be something we mentioned today, could be something completely, you know, kind of maybe just referenced. We'll figure that out. If you want to hear that answer, go ahead and send us a little money our way. We'd love that.

So, Joe, anything you'd like to discuss before we wrap things up?

No, I think that's, I think that's about the size of it.

Like I said at the, towards the beginning and really at multiple points in all of this, this is an era of Star wars that isn't the most fleshed out, but it's the most character centric trick. It's not just big and bombastic and it's certainly at points looks somewhat similar to the Skywalker saga.

But if you're looking for something within the Star wars universe that plays with different themes and looks different than that, this is a good spot to get into.

Right. Well, speaking of things to recommend, you got any for the audience, Joe?

I would recommend if what, you know is the canon materials or just the movies or the, the TV shows or, or if, if you've got a more narrow view of Star wars, have a look at the books, have a look at the extended material out there. Because all of the jokes aside about canon versus Legends and all of that, it's all Star.

And if you, if you look hard enough, there's a very strong likelihood that there is something that you will find.

And that's, that's the beauty of the extended universe, Legends, whatever you want to call it, that it tells more stories in this universe that we love. And so I would recommend that. But in a very specific spirit. Star wars fans are some of the most tribalized fans in all of media. I fully embrace that.

There are whole sections of the Star wars mythos that just simply aren't my bag. They are other people's bag.

I like being a guy that has some bad opinions as far as Star wars, because really, in all actuality, what I want to see happen is more unity in the fan base.

Even within Legends, you've got pockets of fans that are, that are like certain, certain types of legends fans over here, certain types of legends fans over over there.

And it's also segmented that we've lost the rabbit on the fact that at the end of the day, we all love this ip and if we want to someday see more stories told that are our bag, we need to accept that part of the process is just shutting up and letting new stories be told. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Star wars is a great property in the fact that there are plenty of ways for you to get in there.

I know people got in from playing video, video games, from reading the, the young adult novels they had out, from reading the New Jedi Order or Heir to the Empire or seeing a poster somewhere. Like, there's, there's so many ways you can get in. And if you don't find what you like, find something else. There's plenty to choose from.

And as we go through the history of Star wars chronologically, you're going to see there's plenty to choose from. Now, when it comes to comes to my recommendation, I did finish Adventure Time to fall asleep at night. So now I had to find a new thing.

And you know what? It's been a while. I said, let me re watch the X Files to help me fall asleep because I already know what happens.

And let me tell you, that was a stupid thing to do at 2 in the morning watching the Tombs episode as I have never looked at a vent right next to my bed in a more paranoid fashion than I ever have in my life. But you know what? It still holds up. Not every episode's the greatest, but it still holds up.

Yeah, I view, I view X Files like, I view Buffy, like it's, it's. You have to accept the fact that you're watching something from the 90s like you just do.

And, and if you can, if you can square that circle, then, then it's still, it's still good storytelling.

Absolutely. All right, guys, thank you for everything that you do today.

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