Dive into the cosmic chaos of this special May the 4th bonus episode of Systematic Geekology, where they explore the Jedi Council's significant role in shaping the destinies of Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano. Rose, John, and Kevin are all aboard the Millennium Falcon of thought, dissecting how the Council’s decisions influenced these iconic characters' journeys—spoiler alert, it's not all sunshine and lightsabers. They tackle the fine line between the Council’s guardianship and their rigid adherence to rules, which ultimately led to Anakin's tragic downfall and Ahsoka's disillusionment. With a mix of humor and insightful commentary, this episode serves up a fresh perspective on the Council's impact amidst the backdrop of the grand Star Wars saga. So, grab your lightsabers and tune in as they geek out about the Force, board meetings, and the faces behind the most epic stories in the galaxy!
Celebrating the iconic May the 4th, Systematic Geekology pulls back the curtain on the Jedi Council's impact on two of Star Wars' most pivotal characters: Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano. The panel, featuring the dynamic trio of Rose, John Erdely, and Kevin Schaefer, dives deep into the Council's decision-making process, revealing how their rigid structure and traditional views contributed to Anakin's tragic fall to the dark side. They explore the nuances of the Jedi's hesitations regarding Anakin's attachments, particularly his love for his mother and later Padmé, suggesting that this emotional depth was perceived as a weakness by the Council. The discussion flows like a lightsaber duel, sparking insights on how the Council's failure to adapt and connect with their Jedi ultimately led to their downfall. Ahsoka's story is also examined, showcasing her disillusionment with the Council—a pathway that beautifully mirrors Anakin's own journey. As they unravel these character arcs, the hosts inject humor and relatability, likening the Jedi Council to modern-day boards of directors, complete with the bureaucratic banter. This episode is a must-listen for fans eager to understand the underlying themes of choice, attachment, and the eternal struggle between light and dark, all while celebrating the beloved Star Wars universe in a light-hearted, engaging manner.
Takeaways:
The Jedi Council's early dismissal of Anakin Skywalker illustrates how institutional skepticism can hinder potential greatness.
Ahsoka Tano's exit from the Jedi Order showcases the consequences of mistrust and the need for personal autonomy in the face of authority.
The dynamic between Anakin and the Jedi Council reflects a broader commentary on the challenges of leadership and governance in high-stakes environments.
Exploring the Jedi Council's influence reveals the complexity of attachment and emotional connections in a rigidly structured order.
The podcast dives deep into how the Jedi Council's decisions shaped the destinies of pivotal characters like Anakin and Ahsoka, highlighting the weight of leadership choices.
Listeners gain insight into the flaws within the Jedi Council, drawing parallels to real-world organizations and their governance challenges.
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Foreign. Routes and blockades and board meetings and group decision making. Yep. If you can't guess what I'm talking about, I'm talking about sci fi, folks. Yes.
Plot lines for Star Wars. Happy May 4th to all who celebrate. May the 4th be with you Systematic Ecology fans. And we all say, and also with you. Yep. Today is May 4th.
I'm really excited about this episode of Systematic Ecology. I have some very esteemed geekologists with me to geek out about Star Wars. And today we are diving into our.
We're staying on point with our yearly theme, the Faces Behind Us and the Star wars edition is we're talking about the Jedi Council and their influence on Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano. And so, yes, they had a big influence in their destiny and their journey and their story. And we're going to talk about that today.
If you think you're like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe they're talking about, like, councils and board of directors and committee meetings. Yeah, that's. That is what we're talking about.
And we're going to talk about the influence on the good side and dark side of the Force when it comes to board meetings. But I'm really excited about this episode. So, Kevin, John, how are you doing? What's going on today? Are you feeling, are you feeling the Force today?
Is there a disturbance in the Force? Are you feeling the light side or dark side? How are you feeling when it comes to the Force today? Kevin. Kevin, let you go first. How you feeling, man?
Kevin Schaefer:
It's, it's May 4th. I always feel a strong sense of the forest flowing within me and onto others. So, you know, it's.
I mean, yeah, there's Christmas, but for me, May 4 is a national holiday, international, a galactic holiday that anyone is welcome to celebrate. And I am very happy to be here discussing some of my favorite characters and the influences of the Jedi Council. Lot to talk about.
As you said, the main challenge will be can we keep this one at 40 minutes? That's going to be my biggest challenge today. Yeah.
Will Rose:
Most committee meetings that I'm a part of in my life are, are not 40 minutes. So, man, we'll see what we can do. John, how you feeling with the Force today? Light side, dark side? Is there a disturbance? Feeling gray. What.
What's going on?
John Erdely:
I feel disturbed in the Force. I think that just being a grown up right now is difficult.
And there's positives, there's negatives, you know, light, I guess, light side, dark side, influences all around. But it's I'm just kind of like in the mire.
Will Rose:
Yeah.
John Erdely:
Existing but hopeful.
Will Rose:
Yeah, I'm with you. I There's definitely many, many times there's a disturbance in the Force whenever I start start scrolling on my phone and all those things.
But I'm hopeful because I'm surrounded by some really outstanding Jedi right now with me on this epis and in my life. And so I'm also hopeful.
Yeah, there's always that temptation to go down the road of fear, and fear leads to suffering and suffering leads to the dark side, all that stuff. But today, really excited about this episode and can kick out with all of you all on this May 4th edition of Systematic Geekology.
So yeah, to kick things off here, what are we geeking out on? John, I'll let you go first, buddy. What are some things you're geeking out on these days?
John Erdely:
Well, topically, been geeking out on the new Mall Shadow Lord show that's been, you know, dropping two episodes every Monday, which super excited about. Love Darth Maul as a character. It's just, he was just too cool to leave, you know, off in the first movie.
So they brought him back and they're extending a story and they're connecting Clone wars and the movies and also the solo movie. I don't want to give too much away, but it's glorious. I love it.
I wish they do more shows like this, which are much more dark and meaty than the kind of gimmicky light side of the Force stuff.
Will Rose:
I like it. I like it. I'm with you, Kevin.
Kevin Schaefer:
How about you agree with John there? It's an absolutely fantastic show and the animation is spectacular.
On a non related note, I've been listening to the new Noah Khan album on repeat that dropped last Friday. He actually did two versions because he had the initial album and then he had an extended one with four additional songs. And I'm loving that.
I mean, I'm going to his concert in Raleigh this summer, so I can't. It's actually the same weekend as galaxycon, so I'm gonna have a packed weekend of both, you know, super geek culture and then a big rousing concert.
So very excited for that.
Will Rose:
Nice. Yeah, it's really cool to geek out on music. Yeah, I'll share. I just got back from a faith and science conference up in Chicago.
Was able to talk about the other podcasts I do with Faith and Science your matter matter. So it's really cool to share that with folks and geek out on the intersection of faith and science. And how they can work together.
And of course, like, my love of Star wars is really what got me thinking about speculative fiction and science and cosmology and planets and aliens and all that stuff. So they all interact with each other. And I'll agree with John, like, I this Darth Maul animated series, Shadowlord, is absolutely fantastic.
The animation, you just can't get better. It's just absolutely incredible. And I like it that the finale for season one is happening on May 4th.
We get two episodes today and I can't wait to watch a little bit later on and see how they wrap up this season and hope there's a little cameo by Vader or Palpatine or something, I don't know. And I like the characters. Who is the Jedi Padawan? Devin, that's her name.
That is really an interesting character and I'm looking forward to see what, where they take her or where she might show up later on down the road. So, yeah, good, good stuff. Yeah. Thank you all listeners. And like we say on here, we're not geeking out for you, we're geeking out with you.
Share with us what you're geeking out on in the socials, in the comments, reach out to us, and if there's something we're not talking about or discussing or geeking out over, let us know. We'll be happy to do an episode about it. There's no shortage of things to geek out for sure.
And we want to ask that you rate and review our show wherever you get your podcast. It really help helps us get noticeable out there and spread the geek out to friends and enemies alike.
We're just gonna, you know, we're not showing any, any prejudice towards, towards anyone, friends and enemies. We'll geek out with you. We all geek out on something and we want to thank one of our financial supporters we're gonna thank today, Gunner Burgum.
I think that's how you say it. And so Gunner, thanks for your support. Thanks for backing the show.
Really helps us keep things moving and we have to do keep this geekology train moving forward. Like you're being chased by an inquisitor or, or Sith Lord. You know, if you're on a train, just go on being chased.
We're going to keep it moving forward. And we also want to remind you that if you support the show, you too can get a shout out out there. Let us know.
And with this series, your faith, the faces behind us really diving in. We know that none of us geek out alone. None of us are are an isolated island. We are. We' journey together.
We're part of an integrated community and friendship. And so we know that these big IPs and characters that we love, there are faces behind them that shape their story.
And so that's what this series is all about. You can go in the playlist and find all the episodes we've done with the faces behind us. And so you can find that in the playlist.
And so let's get into this episode. Let's talk about Star Wars. Let's talk about what was our introduction. I guess it's a little different. We've talked.
Kevin and John and I have shared before our history with Star wars and what got us into Star Wars.
But in terms of this Jedi, this elusive group of leaders and individuals who come together to make big decisions about this entire galaxy, far, far away, what is your first interaction with an experience with the Jedi Council? Like the Council themselves? Yeah, Kevin, go for it.
Kevin Schaefer:
Yeah. So, I mean, I'm a millennial and very much a prequel, kid. So Phantom Menace was the first Star wars movie I saw in theaters.
Had seen the original trilogy at that point on vhs, but, you know, that theatrical experience of watching Duel of the Fates and Darth Maul and Jar Jar. I know a lot of original, challenging adults hate characters like that, but, I mean, I was always a fan. I loved those movies growing up.
And so seeing the Jedi Council that was sort of alluded to in the original trilogy, presented now in at the height of the Republic and, you know, getting more of this world expanded with the prequel trilogy, that was really fascinating to me. And.
And also, you know, growing up at that time, the merchandise for the prequels was all over the place, and I had every action figure you could imagine going from, of course, you know, the big characters like Obi Wan, Anakin, and Padme, down to individual members of the Jedi Council who weren't really even named in the movies. And so I love following that. And then, you know, the. Even before the Filoni Clone wars animated series, there was the. The.
The 2D animation one from the Samurai Jack creator. That one I was watching week to week in between the release of episodes two and three.
But, yeah, so Phantom Menace was my introduction to the Jedi Council as a whole, and, you know, what it meant for that period. And then, of course, you know, you see how it falls and how once Anakin turns to the dark side and everything crumbles in Revenge of the Sith.
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. John, how about you? What's your Introduction or experience with, with the Jedi Council.
John Erdely:
With the Jedi Council. This might be even as a legend canon throwback.
But I used to read a lot of the Legends novels specifically like Young Jedi Knights and the older series by Kevin J. Anderson trying to marry like the, the Thrawn trilogy and things like that.
But they made mention of like the Jedi Council or versions similar to it where with Luke's news with the school and like the Jedi Academy that he had.
Will Rose:
But nice, nice.
John Erdely:
Kevin pretty much said, you know, I agree with everything he said, like episode one was a phenomenon when we were kids and that was definitely like the most formal introduction to the Jedi Council. Like the. From the Republic itself versus, you know, some legends canon stuff.
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah. So you're, you are a prequel kid. And, and so that, that's what kind of like your introduction to Star wars lead into.
When did you see like the original trilogy? Did you follow it?
Did you see original trilogy after you kind of saw the prequels kind of in order with the episodes or did you do the original trilogy and then back?
John Erdely:
I grew up on the special edition VHS with my dad. The. We still got them actually and I actually managed to snag all the original VHS's from a thrift shop.
So I've got, I haven't watched the original cuts yet, but I've got them on vhs. I'm gonna watch it to see how it compares. But I grew up with the this, you know, the special edition.
And then my dad took me to theaters to see all the prequel Star wars films. So it was big. Star wars was huge.
Like everybody wanted to have the double bladed lightsaber and we were all running around with just having a blast and playing the games. Remember Jedi Power Battles was like the best game and playing it now was really difficult. But back in the day that was the jam.
Will Rose:
Nice. Nice. Yeah. I'm really looking Forward to the 50th anniversary of the original movie going back into the theaters as the original cut.
at came out in the theater in:
Kevin Schaefer:
Fun anecdote is the toy lightsabers I got when Phantom Menace came out. I still have them and now my niece and nephews play with those. So it's a, it's, it's like a passing of the torch there. It's great.
Will Rose:
Nice. Nice. Yeah. For me, for me, my.
My history with this is that, like, I'm an original trilogy kid, and that's the movies I grew up on and geeked out on and sparked the. The geek within me. And, you know, is that that phrase and kind of throw away comment or kind of a mystery that Obi Wan was talking to Luke and he.
He's like, he talks about the Clone wars. He talks about, oh, your father was a great pilot in the Clone Wars.
And it's just a couple of sentences that show you or share with you how big this universe is. There's more story there. You're starting in the middle of this grand saga.
And so as kids, when we were getting the action figures and thinking about the movies that are coming out, we were wondering what it was like before Darth Vader, before Luke Skywalker, the Clone Wars. What would a young Obi Wan even look like or be like who fought in those wars? And just imagining it.
So we had a lot of head canon with that, which might be part of the original trilogy.
Generation might have a problem with the original or with the prequels because we just build up so much story in our own heads that we were like, oh, they didn't tell our story. I'm upset or disappointed. So, man, that's a whole nother topic that we could get into.
But just that kind of allure and mystery of the grand wide universe that Star wars is. And then I remember seeing the prequel and I rewatched Phantom Menace just to kind of see when the Jedi Council shows up.
And they don't show up to like an hour and a half hour, 24 minutes into the first movie.
Yeah, you hear him talk about it here, Obi Wan talk to Qui Gon about like, you would be on the Council if you just, you know, follow the rules more different kind of stuff. Oh, no, they're going to be unhappy with you. So even in the movie it builds up.
You finally get to see them in their hightower on Coruscant, and they're sitting in the.
In a like Knights of the Round Table and they're cutting eyes at each other and sitting there all stoic with their hands folded in prayer or whatever. And then they bring poor Anakin into them and they kind of. So they're so skeptical and. And Qui Gon is pushing back against this council. So I. That.
That is pretty cool.
You have this kind of institutional religion of Jedi and then you have the mysterious force that everyone hopefully can tap into and the Jedis are keen on. So you do have the religion, you have the, the High Council. They are the rule keepers and oversee things.
And then you have the Jedi are putting in practice out there in the world. And it's very analogous to what we're in our world. Like we have a board of directors for any kind of institution or non for profit or big company.
You have board of directors. My own church has a church council, a board of directors that oversees the life and movement of our community together.
And yeah, can meetings get long and get technical and get the weeds about the bills and who's not cleaning up after they do a meal or not and those kind of like dry boring stuff when it comes to community.
But they're also called and elected to be good stewards of our buildings and the budget and to make sure that we're on point with our mission and vision. So I have a kind of a love hate relationship when it comes to board of directors and councils and institutions because they're necessary.
You need these things. But we see the role they play in, in this Star wars movie when it comes or this, this lore when it comes to Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka.
So let's talk about Anakin first and kind of his history with, with the Jedi Council. And it didn't start off on a great foot and then. And again it keeps going in those movies and even in the Clone wars themselves.
Kevin, what's your take on like how. How from the get go Mace wanna do. As much as I like Samuel Jackson and he. He just had a scowl on his face the entire time.
He didn't like Anakin from the beginning. He didn't give him a chance. Come on, y'.
Kevin Schaefer:
All.
Will Rose:
Just because he loved his mom, because he loved his mom. He gave him a hard time. Come on. But anyway, Kevin, what's your thoughts on how the.
The faces behind Anakin Skywalker, one of the big ones is why he went to the went to the dark side is because of this council. Kevin, enlighten me.
Kevin Schaefer:
Well, especially with characters like Mesa, I have to give a shout out to a creator you and I love Mark Bernard. And he said one time on a podcast with Kevin Smith that he described the Jedi Council as space priests. And I about like.
And I was just like, yeah, that's about the most apt description you could have.
But as very stoic beatings that like you said, they see themselves as stewards and as guardians not just of the Jedi way, but really of the galaxy and the Republic. And their view of Anakin is very negative at the beginning not necessarily.
Oh, they hate him as a person, but they have an immediate dismissal of his ability to become a Jedi because they say immediately Yoda, Mace, the rest of the council says he's too old to become a Jedi, which, I mean, Anakin is only nine at the time when Qui Gon finds him on Tatooine and, and thinks that he is the chosen one because there is this prophecy stating that someone.
Will Rose:
In the Force.
Kevin Schaefer:
Right, yes, yes. I wonder where, I wonder where Lucas got that idea from. But yeah, you know, yeah.
And you know, that's also a whole other topic is the introduction of midichlorians and whether that was a good or unnecessary addition to the Star wars mythos. But, but anyway, Qui Gon finds him, sees that he has so much power and potential, and he immediately wants to train him.
But the Jedi Council have a very negative view of that idea because they think that he's already infused with too much emotion, particularly, as you said, with his mother. He, he loves his mother and he ultimately has a desire to learn the ways of the forest and then one day go and free her from slavery on Tatooine.
Because while the deal that Qui Gon made on Tatooine allowed secured Anakin's freedom after he won the pod race, it did not include his mother, Shmi Skywalker, and he was determined to one day free her. And Yoda, Mace, Windu, all the others saw that and they said, no, this is too much. This is too dangerous. Like, with.
The whole point of raising Jedi is we raise them from a very early age and we don't allow them to be corrupted by emotion and feelings. And we want them.
Will Rose:
Attachments.
Kevin Schaefer:
Attachments, exactly. We want them to be extremely level headed and not have any kind of bias or attachment whatsoever. And really, that's a thread that continues.
Like, I mean, I think while Mace and the others, like, do eventually see Anakin's powers, his potential, his abilities and everything, and particularly in time of crisis, they lean on him a lot. He becomes a war hero. Even though, I mean, it's, it's also, this is what I love.
The Jedi Council is like, they have all these roles and we're, you know, keepers of peace, not soldiers. And then they all become generals in the Clone Wars. Like, I mean, there, there is so much hypocrisy there.
So like you, I, I love Samuel Jackson and I, I always thought Mace was such a cool character, but he's also just kind of a douche.
Like, I mean, like, and he's just like, I mean, and it's very hypocritical of the things he says, and that has a profound impact on Anakin, his judgmental nature. And then Obi Wan, I think, is sort of quite caught in the middle of that. I.
He loves Anakin as a brother, and he's both like a brother and a father figure to him, but he's also trying to appease to the Council and adhere to their ways. So he feels kind of caught in that with those opposing values a lot. And that's something I can relate to certainly, too. I like working in management.
I like. I have a deep connection to the people I work with, and I'm looking out for them a lot. And then I'm also having to answer to higher ups.
And so I relate to Obi Wan's path in that way a lot. But, yeah, that's a little bit about it. So the Council is very hard on Anakin throughout.
I think they warm up to him eventually, but then, even then, they're still like, after everything.
By the time Revenge of the Sith rolls around and he's been a war hero, he's trained Ahsoka, they still don't have a trust in him, and they still deny him the rank of master. And that, I don't think, was a good move. We'll get. We can get into more of that.
Will Rose:
Yeah. John. John, how about you? You're being a prequel kid and seeing the. The Jedi Council, the interaction with Anakin. You said Anakin's one of your.
Your favorite characters. What are your thoughts in terms of how he get treated? Would he start off on the wrong foot with them? They never give him a chance. Like, what.
What's going on with this Jedi Council and Anakin?
John Erdely:
Well, they kind of did start off on the wrong foot with being like, you know, he's too old, and him being, like, a little kid, you know, even in his own mind, he's probably like, what are they talking about?
You know, he doesn't understand their structure, that they basically are, like, kidnapping children, but, you know, taking children from extremely young ages to be inducted into this.
Once they detect their, you know, M. Count or their sensitivity to the Force, they are inducted into this order, which is in, I think, you know, their judgment throughout the Clone wars show or even just the movies themselves. I mean, you could tell that they don't all agree with each other. There's some louder, more passionate people like Mace Wandu, who try to.
They really do try to get their way, or they just. Just do it. Do as I say. Not as I do kind of a attitude and. Or they think that they're.
That they're just so good that they can handle everything by themselves, which is really big boon in Revenge of the Sith, when he's just like, you know, you've gained my trust, but you can't help me take down this big bad guy, you know, but yeah, no, the Council just doesn't function the way that it should. It's. It's a good example of a, you know, like a necessary. A necessary thing that doesn't function the way it should.
It's, you know, for all intents and purposes, it is corrupted, but it's also one of those things where it's like their incompetency led to the down their own order getting completely demolished. And also they denied one guy a promotion and then he obliterated the whole company.
Will Rose:
Right. So, yeah, even like, you know, we. When we hear about the Clone wars in the original movie, Episode four, you know that.
That they didn't win because they.
They got to the point where the Empire is controlling the universe and the Emperor is controlling the universe, and Darth Vader has everything in his grip and the Jedi are all but extinct. And so, you know, you kind of figure out, you know, something must have gone wrong along the way, and putting those pieces are telling that story of.
Of kind of having a high value of the Jedi and their ways and that they are good in the universe and a light that people should follow.
But yeah, what these kind of micro decisions or microaggressions or sticking to the rules too tightly or their orthodoxy in a way kind of gets in the way of them seeing a broader, wider expansive universe. And what could happen. Qui Gon's kind of on the page was like, yeah, I don't need to be on council. There's other ways that I'm. I'm.
I'm experienced the Force and can do this. So I don't know if they. If they let go of their rules and rigidness, would there be a little bit more flow?
But then, you know, I can understand them want them not wanting the dark side to emerge and. And take over. But I think Luke.
Luke showed later on in the movies that, yeah, his is his love for his friends and it's his attachments and that his believing in his. His father that eventually redeems the universe and brings him back to the good side.
And so maybe attachments and love and care for your loved ones isn't all that bad. That can help deconstruct, reconstruct how we understand the Jedi religion. But I think, yeah, you got to tell that story somehow.
So to see their downfall and the slow, monotonous decisions that they make.
And then Palpatine throw the dark side clouding a vision of the Force that Yoda says in the prequel the dark side Cloudy, because it eventually brings them together. It's like Qui Gon goes to them and says, oh, you know, I. There's a Sith out there. I got attacked. There was a red lightsaber.
This is really cool, dude with horns, like, chasing me down. And they're like, oh, really? There hasn't been Seth forever. What's going on? And then eventually he brings.
Anakin gets, oh, and, oh, yeah, I found this kid.
So they have these two things going back and forth where the vergence of the Force, along with this emergence of a dark side and a Sith and Palpatine doing his thing. And you see his manipulation, even with the vote of no confidence in the original leader of the Senate.
And then he's working his way off the top, manipulating the system.
So I find all that interesting because in the midst of the world that we live in, a political world, people kind of gave trade routes and, you know, high councils and committees a little bit of a hard time. When that first movie came out, they were like, oh, boys, my exciting Star wars trade routes and. And. And. And high councils. But. And yet we see how we.
I love the memes.
They're being passed around right now about like, oh, we thought this was irrelevant, but now it's very relevant to the economy and what's going on in the world. So. So, yeah, yeah. And then with Anakin, like, it's not just him as a kid, but also like you Gu in the Clone wars, he becomes a folk hero.
People look up to him. Him and Obi Wan really bond as brothers because they're fighting this war on all front.
But he's denied Jedi Master and then not getting that promotion, John, like you said. And also his love for Padme, keeping that a secret, man, it just starts spiraling and goes out of hand.
And we know why and how he turned to the dark side, which is, you know, maybe there could have been more love and care and understanding with this committee that kind of helped him along the way.
Kevin Schaefer:
And also, like, you know, my avatar for this show is Kanan from Star Wars Rebels. And, you know, and he's a perfect example of someone who. He had an open relationship with Hera. He loved her.
They loved each other, and he never turned to the Dark side. Like, he was very. Like, he showed what the Jedi could be if they evolved. And, you know, he grew up in a post.
You know, he was a survivor of order 66 and grew up in the wake of that.
And, I mean, you know, he was in hiding for a long time, and then eventually kind of, you know, came into his identity and became a mentor figure to Ezra.
And so obviously, at that point, the Jedi Council had been extinct, but he was able to find a path forward where he could still emulate the ways of the Jedi and carve out a path for himself and still. Yeah, be someone who loved someone. He had attachments, and he didn't allow those things to corrupt him in. In ways they strengthened him.
Will Rose:
Yeah. And then, all right, eventually you get, you know, Anakin's story. You know, he turns to Darth Vader.
But then in:
And the world flips out. They're like, wait a minute. She doesn't show up in episode three. She doesn't show. We don't hear about any of these. Her anywhere.
Then why are you introducing this character?
But, you know, they introduce his character, and eventually, you know, the way she's going to go off grid, she's not going to show up in any of the movies. So how. How does she not show up in these movies? What happens to her? Does she die? Does she. You know, what you think of it? People are imagining.
They can't imagine him having a pattern because we never heard that before. John, as you or were introduced to Ahsoka, eventually following her storyline into the Clone Wars.
Well, we find out later on why she doesn't show up in the third movie. John, enlighteness when it comes to the Clone wars and the Animated Series. Did you follow. Did you follow it week to week?
Was this a cartoon that you were like, you were locked in the whole time, the whole journey.
John Erdely:
My first animated Star wars show that I watched. Well, I'm not including the very brief Gendy Tartakovsky animated shorts. You know, the Dexter's Lab creator.
When someone talked about Clone Wars, I was like, what do you mean? That little Animated series? No, I didn't know. There was a whole show that was. That was CGI that was created.
So my first animated show I watched was actually Rebels, which got me interested in Clone wars and Then I watched Clone wars after Rebels, so I already had a couple of spoilers of what was. What was going on. But Clone wars show, that's probably my. My two favorite arcs are, of course, the father, son, and daughter, but also the. The.
The Council where Ahsoka quits the Jedi Order. That's, like, the meatiest part of the whole series. And it also understandably why. Another reason why Anakin breaks with the Council.
He's just like, these guys are just a bunch of idiots. You know, like, in the. In the reason, and I guess I'll give a brief summary for the.
For the listeners, is that basically, she was accused of a crime that she didn't commit, and they were ready to sentence her. They were ready to, you know, have her strung, you know, but, you know, she.
It was someone else from within their order who was corrupted by the dark side. Boris.
Will Rose:
I'm not.
John Erdely:
Boris, is it. I can't remember her name. Gosh dang it. But it was Barris.
Will Rose:
You talking about Framed by Paris? Yeah.
John Erdely:
Yes.
Will Rose:
Yep.
John Erdely:
Yes.
Will Rose:
I rewatched it. That's why it's nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to be right.
John Erdely:
But.
But basically, it was someone else was corrupted and trying to frame her to look like she was doing some bad stuff, and the Jedi Council didn't see through it. The only person who believed in her was Anakin, which was her master at the time.
And she's like, I didn't do this, and y' all aren't gonna arrest me for it. And so she went, you know, into hiding and running.
And then after it all came out, that Barris Offee, I think her name is, was the one who was secretly behind all this. This bad crap and killing clones and stuff that I think it was. Yeah, it was like killing a prisoner or something that they. That.
That she was framed to do. Ahsoka was like, y' all were ready to string me up and put me in prison for the rest of my life over something I didn't do.
And y' all didn't believe me, you know. You know, screw you guys. I'm going home.
And then Anakin was like, you guys didn't believe her, and he was really mad at the council, and I thought it was just. Just icing on the cake. The council, like, Yoda was like, we're gonna give you a promotion. Like, you can be Jedi Knight.
And then she's just like, no, I don't want your promotion.
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah, now we exonerated you, and now give you. Give you a step up and I, I like. Yeah, what you. I, I love.
It's brilliant storytelling in a sense of, of all the things like you could kill her off, she could turn to the dark side. She could go. And I. There's different things.
But to, to kind of pile on this Jedi Council that was making, you know, bad decisions when it came to Anakin. Also now to Ahsoka. And you see their flaw and why. Just why Palpatine had a.
Had an easy time or not easy time, but why he was successful in taking down the Order. This is another example of, of how they were really falling apart and, and all those things.
And I think also in that we see Admiral Tarkin for the first time in animated series. Like, they show his hologram and he's like, oh, I need to. So here are these villains from the original movie coming back and, and playing cameos.
To say, like, yeah, it's not going to go well. We know how they're kind of rise to the top. But yeah, that being framed and then being exonerated and then saying, oh, we welcome you back.
And then of course, she would say, like, nope, I'm going on my way. And she eventually becomes kind of a gray Jedi. She's not affiliated. She is spiritual, but not religious. She is.
She has a white lightsaber on, uncolored, you know, lightsaber. She's not a Jedi color. It's not a Sith color. She's. She's down the middle.
And so eventually her story comes back up in Rebels and has her own show and had all that stuff. But I think this beloved character that started off just people questioning and second guessing and why is she even in there?
She's annoying, she's a kid, but becomes one of the most beloved characters in all of Star Wars. And then her relationship to the organized religion of Jediism is really a part of Anakin's fall as well.
So it does influence kind of the way of the Force. And now we have her perhaps training and helping out baby Grogu.
So her wisdom being passed on to having a relationship to the next generation of Jedi to see how that plays out is interesting to me. Kevin, you watch this unfold out too, in terms of their Jedi's Council's relationship to Ahsoka. What else? What else you got to add there?
Kevin Schaefer:
Yeah, I mean, well, also just a footnote too. When the Clone wars movie first came out, yeah, I saw it in theaters and I didn't dislike the care. I actually quite liked the character early on.
I thought it was interesting, but I was so afraid that. That because of all the things you just said, I was like, well, are they just gonna kill her off?
Like, because I'm like, she's not intervened to the Sith. So I was like, is this just gonna be a, like, mini footnote? And maybe that adds to the tragedy?
And I'm really glad I was wrong there, because it played out as just this, one of the most compelling arcs for any Star wars character. And I mean, I have an Ahsoka keychain on my wheelchair, so I, you know, I. I showed that to Ashley Eckstein when I met her one time.
Will Rose:
Nice.
Kevin Schaefer:
But. Yeah, but. But no, I mean, there is. It's.
It's one of the most fascinating arts and it raises so many what if questions, because, yeah, another part of Ahsoka's story in Clone wars is, yeah, she leaves and then comes back, but then at the very end of the series, she's on Mandalore and she's caught up in that war and faces off with Maul for the first time. While all this is happening, everything is happening on Coruscant in the build up to Anakin's turn to the dark side and order 66. And. And I love that.
That confrontation with Maul also, how. Has so much impact. Because in a way, I mean, Maul is right in those. I mean, like. I mean, granted, he is a very.
He's still an anti hero, still a villain and everything, but. But everything he says about what's going to happen comes to fruition. And, you know, and like, it. It raises so many.
The thing I always think about is like. Like, if Ahsoka had been on Coruscant with Anakin when everything was going down, would that have changed everything? Because the.
For Anakin in that moment when he shows up after the Mace Windu and the other Jedi tried to arrest Palpatine, and Mace Windu eventually wins the duel and has the lightsaber at his throat.
You know, Mace Windu is the worst person to be in the scene that they're in the scene with Anakin because, I mean, right there, as Palpatine is manipulating him, you know, like, you could not have a worse character to try to be the opposition and like, quote, unquote, keep him on the light side. But I always think about what would happen if Ahsoka had been there and she.
And she had been able to pull him back and they could still have, you know, defeated Palpatine there, and maybe he would have not turned to the dark side. But it just, like, I That's what I love about her story is, like, she's such a great character on her own, and she means so much to Anakin.
And I think. I mean, that's the biggest part of, you know, his downfall in Revenge of the Sith. And I do love that they get one more reunion before.
But it's also a heartbreaking moment because, oh, like, as viewers, we know that, oh, you know, this is the last time they're going to be really Anakin and Ahsoka, because the next time they reunite, he will have become Vader. And it's such a heartbreaking relationship scenario. But. But, yeah, that's what she means so much. And I just wait. Yeah.
Part of me wishes that, oh, she could have, you know, come back to him, stayed with them, and maybe, you know, would have turned. Because it's the same thing with. If Qui Gon had survived, it would have changed the trajectory of Anakin's life in the galaxy.
That's why that, you know, the duel is called Duel of the Fates because, you know, it's not just Obi Wan and. And Qui Gon fighting Darth Maul.
It's literally the fate of the galaxy is determined in that fight because Qui Gon's death changes everything for Anakin.
Will Rose:
And Marvel's done the what if stuff all the time. I really think a Star wars what if animated of, like, what if Qui Gon survived? What if the Council accepted him as a Jedi Master?
What if Ahsoka was a friend? Like, you could have these different trajectories and stories of just endless possibilities of how things would have been different.
And that's part of the faces behind us questions. It was like, how would things be a little different if they weren't a part of their lives or made some different decisions?
And I think you can clearly see that happen in this ongoing thing. You would think it's just, oh, it's just a board.
It's just a Council, but they have a high that the fate of the universe lies on their shoulders and some of the decisions and how they react to certain things. John, you. You know, you start. You say. You start with Rebels. I guess there was that.
That moment in that series where Ahsok Vader meet up and she kind of realizes who he is in the midst of that share where that was like, in terms of scene for you for the first time, like, that's. That's a pretty. Pretty heavy moment.
John Erdely:
Even without, you know, seeing the Clone wars show and Rebels being my first. First time, I understood that she Was his. Or. Yeah, she was his apprentice. And the movement, the moment was just so.
Just amazing of, like, because, number one, it was an epic set piece. They were on this like. Like the Sith Pyramid battle station thing that was like, supposed to be like kind of a proto planet killer that.
It was really cool because that. Because if I remember correctly, that was when, like, they brought the holocron and all that stuff, and they activated the station.
And then Darth Maul, Darth Maul and Darth Vader shows up. And it's just. It was such a wild, like, series of events there. And then the duel between Vader and Ahsoka was pretty epic.
And then later on in the show, when you figure out that time is. Time travel is involved, it's just geeky. It's so awesome. Like one of those. Like, it really is.
You just get the shivers, you know, like, some people, you know, they hold their Starbucks coffee and they get the shivers. No, I watched the. The Star wars in Between Worlds, and I get the shivers. It's so cool.
Will Rose:
Yeah. And I think I have to go back and watch that. After we're talking about this, I'm gonna go hunt down that episode of them meeting up.
I think it's really, really cool. Maybe I'll do that. You know, you got me thinking about Maul and Ahsoka.
They're both characters that kind of rejected by their institution or their master or, you know, she was never rejected by Anakin per se, but when he turns to the dark side, you know, that she sees what's going on there. Maybe she feels like things would be different in his life if I stuck around it, leave him and help supported him.
But Maul and Ahsoka both have this kind of bond where they both have been kind of pushed aside by the light side and the dark side by Palpatine and the Jedi Council. So they have a common bond there in the midst of that.
It's interesting in this Darth Maul cartoon now this that's happening in the series, you know, here I'm going back and forth about, you know, unaffiliated. He's still a Sith, the dark side, but. But he doesn't, you know, he wants revenge on the Empire, Palpatine as well.
So all that's really interested in great storytelling. I really like how they've. They've handled those. Those stories over the years and done a good job. So.
Yeah, we need to wrap up here, but I'm curious, like Kevin John, what. What has been some of your Experience about with, with, with boards in general or committees. Have you been on a board?
Have you been on a church council? Have you been a board of directors? I've been on lots.
But in terms of your experience, you know, what you know, or should we keep them or get rid of it? Should we just be anarchists when it comes to running our institutions? John, go with you.
John Erdely:
I don't, I don't think you said me right. I don't want to go out.
Will Rose:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Erdely:
Okay.
I was a police officer for seven years and I have had, I have witnessed my fair share of overseeing boards, government agencies and you know, councils, so to speak. And my opinion of them is actually a whole lot worse than the Jedi Council.
I think that real life government boards and overseeing agencies are by and large corrupt and do not function the way that we want them to. They are all extremely self centered, self inflating and rules for the not for me attitude. Not everybody in them.
But I would pick the Jedi Council a thousand times over.
Even the, you know, during the moments when they're like prosecuting Ahsoka is better than, you know, my experience of local government, state government and company oversight boards and things like that.
I have very low opinions of councils and I've witnessed some, you know, good counsels I say like with my local church or you know, with this podcast we. When the, the minds meet, it's kind of like a council meeting, you know.
Will Rose:
Yeah.
John Erdely:
But when it comes to power, where they say absolute power corrupts absolutely, I have, I haven't seen good examples yet and I've.
I was in law enforcement, so that doesn't bode well for my thought of greater society considering I feel like our conservative states are better run than the some other places. And I still have very low opinions of the local governments.
So I do not have very high hopes that other places with more leniency on crime and more of the rules for the. But not for me. Let me live in my mansion while you live in squalor. I just don't have high opinions of councils.
Will Rose:
Yeah, John, not holding back. I hear you, man.
People are going to people and when you get people together on committees, then you just got to double up on what people do in those things. Kevin, how about you, man? Your experience, whether it's not for profits or profits committees.
Kevin Schaefer:
Yeah, I mean, thankfully, unlike John, thankfully, I have not worked for government. So I've actually been on like boards and councils that I would say are much more fruitful.
I actually had an advisory board meeting today for work I'm part of a group there that, so I really. That's actually one of my favorite parts of work. We do a meeting each month and it's a group of us who are from different rare disease communities.
And because I work for a digital health publisher and that's actually one of my things I look forward to the most. And it's actually kind of a nice distraction from some of the more rigid, more bureaucratic elements of work.
Like that's the whole purpose of that group is to exchange ideas. You know, we make it very democratic, we want everyone's voice heard.
And I never feel like anyone is trying to be, you know, power oriented in that regard. And, and similarly, I was on an advisory council for CARE sma, which is like the main nonprofit for my disease community.
And I was, I did two terms there and it was similar to where it was just very much more idea oriented. And, and sure, anytime you get a group of people together, there's still going to be friction and that happens.
But I would say more often than not, on just those two examples, they were really positive. And then, yeah, I've been in church ones before. Some good, some not so good, and yeah, so kind of everything in between.
I've been on many council and board and all that from, I mean, really since the time I was in school to, you know, my work life and plenty of ups and downs.
But thankfully, I would say I've had more positive experiences than negative ones because especially when it's a open forum kind of setting where people can exchange ideas, that's how they should operate. More than like one person dictating and everyone else is just kind of on there as a title.
Will Rose:
Yeah, I hear you. I similar feelings myself. I mentioned the beginning of this episode going to a faith and science conference.
I'm a part of the steering committee for the Lutheran alliance for Faith, Science and Technology.
So we're an alliance and we come together and we make decisions and try to put out stuff to kind of help, you know, curate some healthy conversations between faith and science. And so, so, but, but there I love it was. I love meeting these people that I in person that I've only seen on online for, for a couple of years.
In a lot of ways we were giving hugs like, oh, you're a real person kind of thing. And, but even in that meeting, like we, you know, we had to kind of word the wordsmith, the document that we want to put out there in the world.
And man, you can't drain my energy faster than a group of People sitting there trying to wordsmith paragraphs and sentences and commas and grammar and. But it's necessary. We want to put out the right thing, like all that is necessary. But for me, I don't get any. Some people are great at it.
Some people are good. They get a lot of energy off those things. I do not.
So we all have our gifts and come together as a team, and how to work together as a team is really important. So I'm trying to do in church, I think in the sci fi world ecology, we work together as a team and so those kinds of things.
So yeah, I had a student one time share with me. It was like, well, I'm starting to think that I'm not for organized religion, but I'm a spiritual person. And I was like, yeah, I hear you.
But I knew this guy was on Relay for Life to help raise money for cancer research. And so I was like, yeah, I hear you, man. What if I told you though, that I'm. I'm for cancer research, just not organized cancer research?
And he's like, what are you talking about? Of course we need to come together and we need to come up with a plan and get a strategy and a vision and help raise money. I can't do it by myself.
And I'm like, exactly. And that's how religion is too. We come together, we can't do it by ourselves. We're going.
And as difficult as people can be and hard as people can be, and sometimes people make bad and horrible decisions, we start to work together as a teen and a family. And even in the Star wars universe. It was.
The whole point is that they got this Jedi Council and I think Yoda and Obi Wan saw the flaw of their waves. I would really love to see some storytelling. We got the sequel trilogy with Force Awakens and Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker.
I would love to see it in between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens and the building up of the Jedi Academy and what Jedi were brought together to be a new kind of council, do things a little differently. I heard rumors that there may be like an animated series, a Luke Skywalker animated series that they're going to produce or hopefully do.
And I would love to see this rise of a Jedi Council in a new way of an academy of how to do this Jedi religion with the text they've kept. But learning from that attachments aren't all that bad. Maybe caring for your loved ones and those you care about isn't all that bad as well.
So I would love to see how that would unfold in a kind of a new Jedi Order kind of thing.
Kevin Schaefer:
As long as you're okay seeing them eventually get slaughtered, because you know that.
Will Rose:
That's eventual outcome, which I can ignore. An alternate timeline of what happens in the last Jedi when it comes to that whole Jedi Order being slaughtered. Yeah, I know, I know.
So we knew Darth Vader, we knew the Clone wars weren't going to end well, and we still follow that journey all the way through. So that's kind of what we're. What we're doing here. Cool. Y', all, this has been super fun.
I really appreciate everyone, my fellow geekologists here and the listeners and your support.
John Erdely:
Yeah.
Will Rose:
Go out there, share this with a friend, be lights of the good side of the Force, and share an episode. We want to thank our financial supporters again, Gunner, thanks, buddy. We appreciate all that you do.
At the end of this, you can go to the playlist and go into the show notes and find where you can find us on fourth wall and go over there and be a member. You can even be a free member over there. And we're have a bonus question that you can get a git over on our fourth qualified. And the.
And I know you're dying to know. I think you might have heard our takes on. On Board of Directors and councils. But, you know, if.
If, you know, John and Kevin and I were on the Jedi Council, what role would we have? Would we be the skeptic? Would we the rule follower? Or we be the contrarian? Will we be the rebel? I don't. I don't know. What would our role be?
Or see ourselves? And maybe. Maybe John's the treasure of the. Of the Jedi Order. Maybe he's the one who keeps up with all their credits. I don't know.
We're gonna find out. So you can find that on Hop over the fourth Wall and. And.
Kevin Schaefer:
And.
Will Rose:
And do that. So, yeah, we're gonna try this here. I'm gonna say may the Fourth be with you. And then Kevin and John and I are gonna say together and also with you.
So we're gonna. Let's. Let's see if we can. We have our shirts out there out in the wild. If you haven't gotten yours, go get it. Here we go.
,:
Kevin Schaefer:
Look at us.
Will Rose:
You know, we're liturgical. We're liturgical geeks. Here we go. Peace. Y' all.
