Tony Stark's complex journey as both hero and villain takes center stage as Christian Ashley and Kevin Schaefer dive deep into the MCU with their review of the first two Iron Man films and the Incredible Hulk. They kick things off by pondering whether Stark is truly the greatest hero or just a glorified villain, setting the tone for a lively discussion that blends nostalgia with critical analysis. This episode is all about revisiting the roots of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, especially as anticipation builds for Avengers: Doomsday. Each film is examined not only for its standalone qualities but also for how it lays the groundwork for the larger narrative arc of the MCU. With a relaxed vibe and plenty of witty banter, listeners are in for a treat as they navigate the highs and lows of these iconic films, celebrating the moments that made them classics while also critiquing the missteps along the way.
Christian Ashley and Kevin Schaefer dive deep into the Marvel Cinematic Universe in their latest episode, focusing on the first two Iron Man films and the 2008 Hulk movie. They kick things off with the pivotal question: is Tony Stark the greatest hero or villain of the MCU? This episode serves as a rewatch guide in anticipation of the upcoming Avengers: Doomsday, making it a perfect time for fans to revisit the roots of the MCU. The duo reflects on how Iron Man, released in 2008, was a game changer, reintroducing the character to a wider audience who may have only known him as a B-list superhero. With a relaxed banter, they unpack not just the action sequences but also the character arcs, particularly how Stark's journey from a self-absorbed billionaire to a reluctant hero is masterfully portrayed by Robert Downey Jr. They discuss the underlying themes of redemption and moral responsibility, as Stark grapples with the consequences of his past actions, a narrative that resonates throughout the MCU. As they transition to the Hulk, Ashley and Schaefer tackle the film’s mixed reception, reflecting on Edward Norton's portrayal of Bruce Banner and the movie's approach to establishing Hulk's backstory. They appreciate the film’s attempt to give a heartfelt narrative despite its CGI shortcomings and how it laid the groundwork for Hulk’s later appearances in the franchise. Their discussion highlights the film’s relationship dynamics, particularly between Banner and Betty, emphasizing how this iteration of Hulk adds depth to the character’s motivations.
The episode wraps up with a spirited analysis of Iron Man 2, where the hosts critique the film's struggle to balance character development with the expanding universe of the MCU. They note that while Iron Man 2 may not stand as strong as its predecessor, it still offers memorable moments and significant character growth, particularly through Tony's interactions with Nick Fury and Natasha Romanoff. Overall, this episode serves as a comprehensive retrospective on early MCU films, exploring their lasting impact on the franchise and setting the stage for future stories to unfold in Avengers: Doomsday.
Takeaways:
The hosts dive deep into Tony Stark's dual nature as both a hero and a villain in the MCU, sparking a lively debate that's both insightful and humorous.
Christian and Kevin reminisce about their first impressions of the Iron Man movies, emphasizing how groundbreaking they were in shaping the superhero genre.
The episode highlights the importance of character development in the MCU, especially how Tony Stark evolves throughout his films, making it relatable for viewers.
Listeners are treated to a nostalgic rewatch of the Incredible Hulk, discussing its underappreciated elements and the challenges of introducing such a beloved character.
The hosts explore the missed opportunities in the Hulk film by not fully utilizing its villains, paving the way for a greater discussion about character arcs in superhero films.
In a playful banter, the duo shares their thoughts on Iron Man 2's mixed reception, pointing out how it straddles the line between character study and franchise building.
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Is Tony Stark the greatest hero or villain of the mcu? We are talking about all this and more in the latest episode of Doomsday Prep.
This is a series we created in light of Avengers Doomsday coming out at the end of this year. As such, we are doing a complete rewatch of the MCU and the Fox X Men movies.
So you can check out the previous episode for the first Fox X Men trilogy. Now we are getting into the next the beginning of the mcu. I am very excited for this. I am one of your geekologists here at Systematic Geekology.
We are the priest of the Geeks. I am Kevin Schaefer and Christian Ashley, one of my favorite geekologists and also MCU enthusiasts. Christian, how are you today?
Christian Ashley:
Doing well, Kevin. It's a fun day.
Kevin Schaefer:
That's great. I like, I oh I'm just like I know you just had a vacation.
I'm off the rest of this week and oh it's so nice here and I'm just looking forward to getting outside after being like in hibernation mode all of winter. So I'm very excited for that. But but yeah, I'm really excited for this episode.
So before we get started, if you are new here or if you are a longtime viewer listener of systematic ecology, hey, thank you so much for bringing being here. Please like rate review subscribe. It really helps us out wherever.
Whether you're watching this on YouTube or listening on any of our podcast platforms at a later time, we really appreciate your support.
And if you would like to find out how you can support the show, just click on the link in the description that'll take you to everything you need there. I also want to thank one of our supporters, Annette Noel. Annette, thank you so much.
And if you again if you become one of our supporters, you will get a shout out on the show. So we really appreciate it. Well Christian, just really quick before we get into the main topics, what have you been geeking out on lately?
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, I finished my second re listen to the Creepcast podcast that is a podcast made by YouTubers Windigoon and I believe it's Meat Canyon Papa Meat.
I'm not as familiar with him as I am with Windigoon and they go through different creepypastas and short stories and the like horror and read them and add their own entertaining dialogue and how they feel about the story, whether it's really bad, whether it's really good. It's a really fun time.
Kevin Schaefer:
Very cool. I will have to check that out.
I yeah, for me I did as if I needed another service, but I did subscribe to DC Infinite Universe or whatever they call the DC Comics app that has, you know, a massive library. I really like it too, because it's. I mean, I read primarily digitally these days just for accessibility.
And I mean with not only the library they have on there, but like, you can get books in trades. You can. It's really easy access. So I'm really enjoying that.
I'm using it to catch up on all of the absolute stuff right now and then going through some older comics as well, but really enjoying that. So it's. It. It's well worth checking out. It's very reasonably priced, I would say, for the amount of content on there.
So, yeah, really enjoying that, but. Awesome. All right, well, let us get into it. So.
So for this episode again, we are going to be talking about the first Iron man movie which kickstarted the MCU, the Incredible Hulk and then Iron Man 2. So let's get in first to Iron man. Now.
Christian, I'm really interested here because on the X Men episode, I would say the, like all three of us, you mean. Andy had background with the X Men when the movie came out, whether it was through the cartoons or the comics. I'm curious.
When Iron man came out in:
I mean, I had heard of the character. I had seen him in some of the animation in the. Yeah, in the 90s he actually had his own show, but I don't.
I may have seen just a few episodes of that. It wasn't nearly as good as like Spider man and X Men, but he was pretty much like a very B, even C list character at the time.
What was your background with the character when this movie came out?
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, at best in the world, he was a B lister at that time. In comics he was a little more.
But like, overall I'd put him there, but my introduction was the Animated Series ran on for two seasons that really adapted more like the Force Works comics, but a lot of more of the Iron man stories along the way. So that was my introduction to him there. Of course he showed up in Spider man and then eventually the Secret wars episode they did there too.
s, early:
I started reading the Avengers. I read a couple of his solo issues. So I knew him fairly well by the time the movie came out.
Kevin Schaefer:
That's interesting. Yeah, because like, I mean, yeah, I, like, I'd seen him in stuff. And then I'm trying to remember the timeline of when.
If you remember there was like the ultimate Avengers animated movie, but I can't remember if that. Do you remember if that came out closer to the time of Avengers or we can look it up. But like, I just thought of that. I did watch.
Christian Ashley:
It was before.
Kevin Schaefer:
Yeah, I mean, I know it was. I think it was definitely before Avengers, but I can't remember if it was. Oh, so it was. Okay. So then I did.
I had seen that and that was quite good because it was actually kind of rare for Marvel to do animated movies like DC had done. And so. So I remember that one really well. So I see. I mean, but yeah, it was really.
Those like, that were my, you know, prime knowledge of the character.
So I went in, you know, I mean, I knew the, you know, some of the basics, but I, I never, for me, I never, I will never forget one of my best friends in middle school and I were hanging out at the mall and we. He showed me the first image they released of Iron man months before the movie came out. And it just looked stunning. It was the Stan Winston design.
I like, I. It was like just from that image, you had a feeling that this was gonna be something special.
And Yeah, I mean, and I mean, and the movie, you know, very much blew me away. I mean, this was the same summer as Dark Knight. It was a really game changing time for comic book movies.
And this one in particular really just took the world by storm. So what was. Well, you know, coming out of this movie the first time, would you have been. Because I was in middle school.
Were you in high school at the time?
Christian Ashley:
I was 18. Yeah, that's my senior year. And I remember being very pleased with what I saw.
I think I even told my dad, like, oh, this feels like a perfect movie to me now, in hindsight, I could say it's not, but, you know, it's really good. It got what it needed to get done done. And I enjoyed seeing him on screen. Little tease we got of War Machine possibly showing up later on too.
And of course we'll get to the end credits in a bit since you have that for later on. But like, I was like, okay, I'm ready for more, 100%.
Kevin Schaefer:
It was just, I mean, there was so much about. I mean, yes, it's not perfect, but it still holds up all these years as just like, I mean, a great, you know, individual story.
It, it just has all the momentum is there the performance. Of course, this was, I mean, one of the best castings not just in comic book movies, but as far as just fictional characters brought to Life.
Robert Downey Jr. Was. And Abram is Tony Stark.
And we will also, we can start talking in this episode about the Doomsday connections because I, you know, I definitely want to get into. I, I've been consuming all the theories about, you know, why RDJ has to play Doom and we'll get into that in a little bit. But.
But yeah, it was just, it blew me away the first time. There was the grounded aspect of it. It wasn't this like silly over the top.
Not that I don't like silly, over the top comic book movies, but this was a very different one. And like I said, it came out the same summer as Dark Knight.
This was like right at the beginning of the summer, going into it, and then Dark Knight was a few months later. Both were game changers.
And it's like, you know, at this point, we had had the Sam Raimi Spider man trilogy, we'd had the Fox X Men trilogy, you know, decades before Batman 89 and Superman 78. So there was that. But it was not this mass influx of comic book movies like there are today.
And so this one was a big game changer in terms of the scale, the scope.
But at its core, it is a character driven story about a guy who is there like the complete opposite of the characters we had seen before of, you know, characters like Peter Parker and the Mutants, who we are very drawn to because they're relatable, they're one of us. They're kind of, you know, anyone who feels like a bit of an outcast or nerdy or anything like that, like, you're drawn to these characters.
in, you know, our culture in:
Everyone hated this, like, you know, war profiteering egomaniac who only cares about himself and advancing technologies and is so sure about himself that he's not willing to listen to dissenting opinions.
And then of course, he goes through this origin story of being captured by terrorists, learning that the weapons he built are being used to kill the people that he intended to protect. And everything he thought he knew is not what it is. And he now has to reconcile with who he is as a person. What is his moral framework.
It asks so many great questions in this film and a lot of those carry through the rest of the MCU and the rest of Tony's arc. So I love how much is set up here. And like you said too, all of the Easter eggs are planted.
We didn't know that this was the foundation for a cinematic universe, but it started to plant the seeds of, okay, you know, roadie teases becoming War Machine. And then of course we'll get into the post credit scene. But there's this like, it just feels like a. Within one movie.
It feels just like an established universe in an intricate world. And you have this very grounded character in a more grounded story.
I mean, obviously he's running around a robot suit, but still, it's more, it's not your typical, oh, he got, you know, bitten by radioactive spider or transformed into a hulk is, you know, he's, you know, it doesn't have superpowers. And, and yeah, this was just it.
And I remember too, like my brother, for instance, is not really a complicated fan and I remember him enjoying this one and him enjoying Iron Man 2 a lot. You know, like some of those earlier ones, they. It had this mass cultural impact that we weren't as accustomed to seeing.
You know, like I said, the Spider man trilogy had that, but it was pretty rare for something of this scale and especially a more B level character to, you know, present as, you know, to be appealing to mainstream audiences and really plant the seeds for something bigger. So, yeah, this one, you know, remains one of my favorites. I mean, now I don't want to just gush praise of it, but.
But looking at it retrospectively, Christian, what are some just highs and lows for you of the movie?
Christian Ashley:
I'll say high as far as adapting his origin because unlike Batman, unlike Spider man, you need to see his origin because it hasn't been told a million times before to a general audience. Now, I knew the origin because I'd read the comics, but to everyone else who doesn't know anything about the comics.
Oh, well, originally in the canon it was the Vietnam War. Well, we're not dealing with that anymore. We are in Afghanistan at the time.
So it is natural for him to be going there in his job as a businessman to showcase, hey, this is a bit bad stuff. We're going to be raining down upon our enemies. I'm your guy. I'm really cool. I'm suave.
And that being brought to a point of humility, and then the changing of his origin at that point still works really well because they keep the Middle Eastern conflict in there, but then they go with the 10 rings thing without the Mandarin, the real Mandarin, which I to this day think is a misstep. And I understand why. They don't want to be accused of being racist. Well, you know how you're not accused of being racist?
Well, if you write a character well, you write the Mandarin well, you can have him as his number one enemy, which is what we were robbed of. And you know what they do with the character that's based on, in lore, in canon on the Mandarin, whether with Shang Chi's father. Spoiler, sorry.
Along the way. That's interesting in its own right. But he's not the Mandarin. I want the 10 rings, the actual rings and the powerful menace that he has.
So that's a gripe. I still have to this day about it. Once again, I understand why, but I think there's stupid reasons. If you could just write. Well, but whatever.
His relationship with Pepper Potts is great here, Rhodey as well, him being. Because, like you mentioned earlier, he's someone you typically wouldn't want to identify with. And that's why Stan Lee made him in the first place.
Forever ago, during the midst of the Vietnam War happening on its way beforehand, he was like, can I make a character? Because he was created before we actually got involved.
Can I make a character like these people that the readers I have don't want to like and make them like him?
And I would say he succeeded beyond his wildest imagination, especially with the movie coming out, because he's haughty, he's extremely, extremely prideful. Always thinks that he's right, never listens to anyone else.
And yet when he starts to develop a bit of a heart and they make the joke about in the film like, he. He is better.
He doesn't completely learn his lesson, but it gets to the point where he is not as bad as he would have been because he's still Tony, he's still Prideful, he still thinks he's the smartest person in the room.
Kevin Schaefer:
He.
Christian Ashley:
But he's also willing to listen a little more after the events of this
Kevin Schaefer:
film and just to add on that.
So, I mean, again, I do want to start talking about Doomsday and all the implications and looking at each movie in the series and, you know, because, I mean, Doomsday is Going to be the culmination of years of storytelling, just like Endgame was. And I have been following all of the theories because when they first announced that RDJ was going to play Doom, I was like, that is so desperate.
This is dumb. I hate it. And I was. And I was. And, you know, would I have made that decision if I was Feige here and executive.
No, I would have gone for a different version.
But now, after letting it settle and then consuming every theory imaginable, like, because I watch Screen Crush and New Rock Stars and all those, you know, YouTube channels that overanalyze these things and, you know, one of the theories that I found are interesting.
Not only are there natural comparisons between Tony Stark and Victor Von Doom in terms of their ambition and their scale, and, you know, there are many comics that explore that, but there is the adoption theory, which I find really interesting that it basically said.
Because in Endgame, when Tony goes back in time and meets Howard Stark and he asks him what day it is because Howard talks about how his wife is expecting, and there's a confused look on his face indicating that the timeline doesn't match up with when he was born. So there's theories now that Tony. And I'm saying this because you said that about, like, you know, could he be as bad as.
The theory that's running around is that the Tony Stark we've known all these years was actually born Victor Von Doom, but was adopted because the original, the biological son of the Starks, died either in childbirth and they adopted Tony or, well, adopted, let's say, Victor and change his name to Tony. Now it's. I mean, this is one of many theories, but I've been. At first, I was like, that's a little bit of a stretch.
But knowing how much multiversal shenanigans are going to take place in Doomsday and Secret Wars, I'm lending.
I'm willing to give credit to that to, like, I mean, you know, we still don't know, of course, what they're gonna do, but that's been on my mind as I'm doing this rewatch of looking at the seeds planted, particularly with Tony's journey and how is it going to connect to Doom. So that's one I found interesting. Again, it may be complete bs, I don't know, but.
But I'm just, you know, because the Russo brothers specifically said no one else but RGJ could have played this version of Doom. So there's a definitive reason why, and it's not just like fan service so, you know, I'm.
I'm really curious, once we get to December, how it will all play out. I mean, you know, we may not even learn all of that until Secret Wars. I don't, you know, I don't know. But. But anyway, that kind of time. But.
But it ties back to looking at this movie, all of the different layers to Tony's character. And I like how, like you said, they, you know, know, they don't make him. One note, they make him the one you don't like.
But you're still drawn to a lot of that, again, is RDJ's performance, but he goes through this really compelling arc. Another thing is, since you brought up the Mandarin and everything, I agree with many of that. I do.
Now, granted, I do like that the twist that they did In Iron Man 3, while I wasn't a fan of it at the time, it ended up giving us Ben Kingsley's Trevor, which led to Wonder Man. And it is a phenomenal show. You must watch it if you have not. So I'll just say that. But.
But going back to this movie, I really do love what they do with. With Obadiah Stain here because, you know, they don't come out and announce him as the villain right away. Like, you know, you're.
If you're watching as if you were, okay, it's Jeff Bridges playing him. He's probably not gonna play a useless side character. You know, I mean, he's the. He has been running the company with Tony.
So since Howard Stark died. Yes, there's. It's likely that he would be the villain. Nonetheless.
I like how they play out that relationship and the betrayal, and it has an impact and, you know, and like. And I think that I would say the fight at the end holds up pretty well. What I like too, is that all of the narrative threads in this really connect.
I mean, they're. Yeah, it doesn't just set something up and then throw it out. Like, for instance, the icing problem. It comes back to that in the final fight.
I mean, there's. There's build up, there's great storytelling. A lot of this is because of Jon Favreau.
I mean, I like, I think he was the perfect person to, you know, really shepherd this character, kickstart this universe. Obviously, he's been a staple of the MCU from the beginning and remains one, even though he hasn't directed an entry since Iron Man 2.
He's obviously played Happy Hogan in Iron Man, Spider man, and Avengers and been an executive producer on multiple Avengers movies. So yeah, I just, I. I really do think the storytelling here holds up.
ean, going back to this being:
And we'll see this a lot in comic book movies throughout this time. It's a lot of. It is very 911 response.
And there are going to be stereotypes here and we get a great character in the form of Jensen, who plays a pivotal role in Tony from the beginning and is I think one of the most important characters in the mcu. Um, but so, I mean, he's great, but. Yeah, but there are still those very 911 era stereotypes and depictions that are going to be there.
Christian Ashley:
But I will say I have always hated the ending, ending with him revealing his secret identity because I'm more of a purist and I want my superheroes to have secret identities outside of letting them know each other.
Like after a while, like it makes sense like in the current comics why he's given his identity out to world, especially with civil War, you know, happening in that continuity would not make sense for them not to know who he is. He's not like. Wasn't like the Fantastic Four. It's fairly obvious who they were. So they didn't have to have secret identities.
But most other superheroes had them. And that's something they played with the rest of the MCU is that no one really has a secret identity outside of Peter Parker, really.
And there will be other people along the way, but like, like main, main characters. Everyone's just like that. That's who I am. Maybe take my mask off every. Everyone can know who I am. And because we have to see our actors.
Beautiful faces. I can't stand that.
Kevin Schaefer:
That's fair. I mean, I, I still remember when that happened. I was like, whoa, they did that?
And that was unheard of because like you said, I mean like superhero is just like. That's an integral part is they have a secret identity. I. But I do think if any character is going to do that, it's Tony.
It's going to be one who is just like. Like a. He goes through the reconciliation of. He wants to make up for past mistakes. He wants it.
And you know, hiding in this regard wouldn't make sense. And also. But also ego plays a part in too. He kind of wants to take credit for like, for everything as well. But I, I Do love the.
But especially the performance in that moment because you know, he has the script and he says like, well, clearly I'm not the hero type. And then he's just like, ah, screw it, I am Iron Man. And I just. It was a mic drop for the movie, but that's a fair point, you know.
And speaking of ending endings, I know I would love to go on and on, but we do have two more movies to cover. But the post credit scene, what was your reaction the first time you hear Sam Jackson Nick Fury come out?
I want to talk to you about the Avengers Initiative.
Christian Ashley:
I had no clue whatsoever that was happening. I see Samuel L. Jackson with an eye patch on his head. He mentions the Avengers Initiative and I lost my ever loving mind. I.
This isn't just standalone. They're actually going to connect stuff is what in my head when immediately could we get Captain America?
Could, could we get like Giant man or, or the Wasp or the Hulk, which is obviously next.
But like, because I didn't know that movie was coming out, it's like, yes, I want to see these people on screen because I've read the Avengers comics. I want to like, I want them to be real.
Kevin Schaefer:
It was just, I mean I like, I think any even like remote comic fan or even ones who are just like mainly watch the cartoons, like this was just it. Whoa. They're actually going there because I mean like X Men, of course there's multiple characters, but it's X Men.
There's, you know, it's not like it's. It's different kind. This is actual crossover they're bringing together. You know, we had never seen Justice League. We had never seen.
But you know, this was a massive deal and, and especially I mean just the fact that they got Sam Jackson because if anyone knows that the ultimate version of Nick Fury in the comics was inspired by Samuel Jackson, but nonetheless it's like someone as famous as that they, you know, there was no guarantee that they could get him, but no one else could have played that role. And it was just, oh, ultimate mic drop. It's still going to go down now.
We're so accustomed to post credit scenes, but at that time this changed everything. So.
he next entry and that is the:
So whereas Iron man had never been done on the big screen before, there was the Ang Lee Hulk movie from a few years earlier, which is not part of the MCU starred Eric Bana. But because of that, now this is what like you were talking about earlier, like they needed to show Iron Man's origin.
A lot of mainstream viewers did not know who that was. Hulk, on the other hand, had just had that movie a few years ago, even though it's disconnected.
But even then, between the 80s television series and that movie, more people knew Hulk's origin than Iron Man. So they knew going in that they didn't want to completely revamp that.
And that's actually one of my favorite parts of this movie is they do the origin in a montage sequence in the titles. And I actually really like that. It gives you exactly what you need to know. Okay. Bruce Banner is a scientist, experimented with gamma radiation.
It went wrong, he turned into the Hulk. His girlfriend's father is in the military and hunts him down. And now he's living off the grid. It's very simple, straightforward. I really like that.
So, yeah, I, I'll give quick, you know, my kind of background of this movie. I. It's interesting because this is one that's typically like not only looked down upon, but often completely forgotten. And part of that is they.
Well, of course Hulk has been, you know, part of the MCU for a long time. And it remains that there's a few reasons here. I mean, this starred Edward Norton, not Mark Ruffalo.
There's a whole story there about why he did not return to play the character. You can look it up. But. But there's that. There's also.
This is the only solo Hulk movie in the MCU due to rights issues that I still don't understand it. It's confusing like Hollywood, how Hollywood has different studio ownership of characters, but they can still put them in a team up movie.
But on a solo movie, you. It's a little over my head. But. But anyway, that's why we've only gotten this one that was produced by Universal. But.
But, you know, so it is pretty forgotten up until for whatever reason they made Captain America. Brave New World, a semi sequel to the Incredible Hulk. That was a choice, but. But for the most part, you know, we, we don't. Yeah, we don't.
We haven't really come back to this movie a lot. But I will say, even though this one is typically ranked toward the lower end of the mcu, I remember quite enjoying it at the time.
I mean, I always really loved the Hulk. I loved Bruce Banner. I had. That was one of my favorite action figures as a kid. I loved the 90s cartoon. Some of the comics and whatnot.
So I always gravitated toward the character. And doing a rewatch of this, I was actually pleasantly surprised. I mean, it does it.
The CGI does not hold up great, but as far as the story and making a more tender hearted superhero story in contrast to something like Iron Man, I think it still holds up actually quite a bit. It is, you know, very far from perfect by any means and.
But I thought on a rewatch I was quite entertained and I think it's a good introduction to the character in the mcu. I think Edward Norton did a great job. I like how it expands on the military themes here and you know, it captures the heart and soul of folk.
Also a really good score. I don't know, Kristen, what do you think of this movie though?
Like both what you thought of it maybe at the time and, you know, if you have thoughts on it retrospectively.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, this movie, to me, you used the word forgettable or thereabouts earlier on. That's exactly how I feel. It's just kind of like it exists. I know it exists.
I think I remember things that happened in it even after rewatching it fairly recently to prepare for this. But it's just. It's there to make the Hulk a character in people's minds. That's. That's the best thing I can say about it, in my opinion.
Because it's not bad. I mean, it's way better than, you know, Ang Lee Hulk just want daddy to love him film. But that doesn't.
Because it's better than that doesn't make it good. I think the abomination is wasted here.
You have to lead up to the leader and that's not paid off until Brave New World, which why is he facing, you know, Captain America, Sam? Because of licensing issues. That's why. The whole Universal thing, how they can they own the rights to his solo films, but not to win his team up.
That's legal B.S.
i couldn't care less about except for the fact that it doesn't give me what I want, which is, you know, actually just to explore his character a little more on his own. But yeah, it is what it is. I mean, I'm grateful for it because it helps solidify the thought we had had at the post credits of Iron Man.
When we see the post credits for this one with Tony Stark meeting with Thunderbolt Ross, you know, about everything going on there, it's like, okay, they're doing this for real. That's the really. The thing I remember about this film is like, we're not joking about this. We're not just teasing you. No, this is gonna happen.
Kevin Schaefer:
Now I will say on that, one of the things that was like, I didn't think about for a long time, but I was like, disappointed on a rewatch here is, yeah, I still remember that post credit scene, the first time of Tony coming to Ross. And that's something I really wish they had explored more in future Avengers movies.
Is okay, Tony is buddy buddies with Ross, but also him and Bruce hit it off right away. Right? Like, they're both scientists. They both have.
And so I really wish they had explored that conflict of having, you know, Bruce's nemesis, who has literally tried to kill him, as, you know, has brought a rift between him and the love of his life, like, and hunted him across the world, you know, is a. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say like him and Tony are best friends or anything, but. But they are allies.
They have this kinship and, you know, they're on the same side in Civil War. And I think it was a missed opportunity to not have Bruce be a part of Civil War.
I realize it would have been hard to integrate in terms of like, okay, whoever has the Hulk on their team, it puts them at an advantage. But nonetheless, like, yeah, pretty. Exactly.
But like, at the same time, it's like, it just would have been something interesting to come back to, to explore that rift of, you know, because the, like, the dichotomy between Steve and Tony is set up very early on. But, you know, like I said, Tony and Bruce really have this connection and chemistry with each other.
And I, I would have liked to see some conflict between them, you know, not in a forced way, but it's like they introduced, you know, an element here that they never really came back to. But. But yeah, I mean, it's just like. I know and I totally see your points here, and for a while I kind of thought that.
But again, I was just kind of pleasantly surprised on a rewatch. I'm like, you know, maybe it's just because I do love this character and I think this one, yes, it's very simple.
It's forgettable in the sense of it being compared especially to a lot of other MCU entries and other comic book movies. But I like how it approaches the character. I like it how it pays homage to the 80s series. The Lou Ferrigno cameo is fantastic.
Actually, my dad and I got to. Got to meet Lou Ferrigno at a signing about a year ago. That was really cool. Yeah. So, like.
But I like how it's like, it's simpler, it's a little pulpy. Yes, I agree the villains could have been done much better.
I mean you got great casting with Tim Roth and Tim Blake Nelson, but I think they would have paid off more if they had continued them in sequels. But I agree, but what they did with Abomination, like, I won't say it was an Abomination, haha. But it was underutilized.
I think it would have been like he turns into the Abomination at the end and then is kind of a main villain in the sequel. But of course we never got a sequel here. But I think what I really like though about the movie, again, beyond far from perfect.
And it's still ranked toward the lower end of the mcu. Granted, I think there are ones that are way worse. I'll get, you know, we'll, we'll touch on those later in the series.
But yes, I really do like the relationship between Bruce and Betty here. I think it's well cast and I think that's really the heart and soul of the movie.
So it kind of makes up for some of the lesser aspects of like, I don't need it necessarily to focus on a traditional hero villain because really Hulk is more about him trying to control himself. And you know, he hates having the Hulk in him, but I think Betty helps him see that, oh, he can use it as a force for good.
He doesn't have to be a monster. And I like how it explores those themes and it's, you know, there are some really good scenes.
I, you know, I, I really like the one in the cave after the big fight with the military and him and Betty are on the run and she has to calm him down. Again. I, I just like, I like the, the, the pacing there, like the setting.
So there's like, yeah, I mean again, not far beyond, far from a perfect movie. But as someone who was going into it, kind of like, okay, this is going to be more my homework for this series. It's been a minute since I watched it.
I was, I enjoyed it. You know, it was a good Saturday afternoon watch.
Christian Ashley:
I'm glad.
Kevin Schaefer:
Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of where I'm at with this one. But yeah, so I know where get to the next so. And yeah. Oh, real quick though.
If we did in a perfect world, get another solo Hulk movie, what would you like? Is there a storyline you would have
Christian Ashley:
want adapted storyline specifically? No, but like more of an idea. When you brought this question to me a couple days ago, I was like, what would I do?
I mean, I think I do what the Angling film, Ang Lee film couldn't and actually explore Bruce's psyche more and probably have, like, the leader actually become the leader, capture the Hulk, and maybe you make him have to create the UFOs or Zacks or Xemnu or something like that to fight the Hulk, to get him incapacitated, to where he's got him in a moment, to where he's forced to look back at his past. And we could maybe get Joe fix it. Savage Hulk, Devil Hulk on screen in his own mind, fighting for control.
And maybe one of them wins at the end of the film. And, like, that one beats the leader. And the cliffhanger is like, okay, which Hulk are we going to get after this?
Are they going to be able to break out? Is Bruce ever going to be whole again? Something like that. Just with, like, having a few days of prep for an idea to create a script here.
Kevin Schaefer:
No, absolutely. I think it's a great idea. And, like, I don't have anything, like, super fleshed out, I guess.
Like, I. I really enjoyed World War Hulk back in the day. Like, it's been a minute since I've read that, but I think that would have been a good storyline. But.
But really, I mean, in an ideal world, we would have had some of the ideas from Brave New World in an actual Hulk movie. And if we had gotten to see Hulk face off with Thunderbolt Ross as Red Hulk, I mean, that would have been great, you know, just.
Just building on those elements more. But, you know, alas, you know, it is what it is.
Christian Ashley:
We live where we do.
Kevin Schaefer:
, which came out in:
And this is one that, of course, had a lot to live up to with how successful the first movie was.
And this one starts to really emphasize the larger world building of the mcu because, like we said, there were big teases in especially Iron man and then in the Hulk, but this one, okay, bring in Natasha Romanoff. We started setting up the Avengers more. The post credit scene features Mjolnir. There's a lot going on here. That is. And this is.
I think, actually, as much as I like those elements, it also speaks to one of the big flaws of the movie.
Because if you look up, like, YouTube videos on this, like, Jon Favreau had a plan for a whole trilogy, but this was why, you know, where Marvel started to interfere and, you know, made him change, of course, because he wanted to make this one more character focused and actually deal with Tony's alcoholism. But he was kind of forced to, you know, hammer in Avengers elements and world building and stuff like that.
And I mean, yes, we get Scarlett Johansson first appearances. Natasha Romanoff is great, but it also. Some of the sideline stories kind of detract from the main narrative. And, you know, I. This is another one.
It's perfectly entertaining for me, but. And, and I. I think I did really enjoy it at the time it came out because this was still on the high. I mean, I think I. That.
Well, because I think the reason this one does, you know, also fall toward the bottom or like, you know, lesser, you know, group of MCU movies is because there are so many that are way better. But at the time, we only had like three movies in this series. And yeah, at that time, it was still really good.
Looking at it now, yeah, I mean, for me, it's entertaining. It does have some great moments in it, as agree.
But ultimately those elements of it, trying to juggle multiple things and world building without as much emphasis on, I think clearly the story that Favreau wanted to tell. That is very apparent here. I don't know, Chris, what were your thoughts? Kind of maybe at the time and then looking at it now.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, this is one of those that in hindsight, I kind of go, wait, I was in the minority. I really love this film. And everyone else isn't as big on it as me. And yeah, I can still look at it and see its flaws.
And if Civil War and Winter Soldier and no Way Home didn't exist, this would probably be my number one MCU film. I mean, no joke, because I enjoy it. We get our war machine here. Yeah, recasting, blah, blah, blah.
Whiplash isn't like the best villain in the world, but we got Justin Hammer, we got the demon in the bottle being portrayed here.
I was kind of really hoping they would do some armor war stuff, but I don't think there had been enough to establish that because, you know, what is he going to do? Fight Stingray and a bunch of other people just for the sake of this film? I highly doubt it. But, yeah, I really enjoyed it.
I get to see a little more character study of Tony and how the success has gotten to him and, you know, like, what am I supposed to do now? I am a superhero. And of course you get some great scenes with Nick Fury. Working with Tony here, it's like trying to get him back on track.
Like, hey, I need you together, because bad things are happening around here. We need. We need you at your best. But. Yeah, the final confrontation, I mean. Yeah. Is it a bunch of shooting and lasers and missiles and whatnot?
Yeah, absolutely. But I love it. Is it a huge retcon that the kid in the Iron man mask is supposed to be Peter Parker now? Absolutely, it is. But you know what? It's fine.
I'd still love it for what it is.
Kevin Schaefer:
That's really interesting. I know. I mean, and like I said, I. I quite enjoy at the time, and I still find it very entertaining.
I like, I definitely want to put it that high on my list, but that's really interesting and. Well, you know, looking at this, too, so it does have two of my favorite Tony moments. One funny and one really pertinent to his character.
The funniest one that I still remember getting a kick out of when I first saw it is when he.
He's at the donut shop or whatever with Nick Fury, and after, he's, like, hanging on the top of the building or top of the sign, and then it cuts to them inside the diner, and he's like, I told you I don't want to join my super. Your super secret boy band. And it's just. Yeah. Perfect delivery. I love that moment.
But also, this does have one of my favorite scenes in the MCU and in Tony's story. And that's when he plays the message from.
From Howard Stark about, you know, that the old promo of where he's talking about his designs for the future and all that, and then his old recording and Tony's just, you know, ignoring it. Like, I.
This is where we get the hints of, like, him exploring how he still has a lot of resentment toward his father and never had that warm relationship and all that. But then that moment where it cuts to Howard Stark, you know, talking directly and says, you know, Tony.
And then he does this monologue and it's, you know, my greatest creation is you. And I'm like, that's. I mean, and it's perfect delivery. They got John Slattery to play him. I. You know, I.
And that really is a great payoff going back to not just like the doomsday theories and all that, but especially how it paves the way and connects back to Endgame and the scene when they get to meet each other in the past. And, yeah, it's a. It's a great moment. So. So there is. There's still a lot to love about this movie, even though. Yeah. I mean, it is.
It Was like, I think it was again, for a while it was ranked toward the bottom of the mcu.
But again, I think that was because there were so many others that were really, really good, you know, like, so it wasn't like I, you know, I also, I never, you know, strongly disliked this movie or, you know, had it on the bottom, but it was like when you compare it with Avengers and first Captain America and stuff like that, and first Iron man, yes, this definitely was like on the lower end, but it still, you know, got a lot in there and, and yeah, you know, so again going back to Tony and Howard, so what do you think this tells us about Tony's character and how this relationship becomes integral to, to the mcu?
Christian Ashley:
That's why I am extremely upset with current comic scanning because I'm pretty sure this hasn't been retconned because there was a retcon of Tony not being his biological son.
And there, of course, this was during Aaron's run of the Avengers and Mephisto was involved in a bunch of stuff that made Howard even more of a villain rather than like a complicated man. This movie makes him a complicated man. And you know, that that doesn't mean that we approve of everything that we. He does.
That means that we look at him as a person. The totality of who he is.
It's like, oh, there's more expect if I just make a knee jerk reaction, I'm going to hate someone without seeing who they are as a person. Because he did love Tony.
He did see him as his greatest creation, but he also spent much time away from him, wasn't always the best person when it came to loving his son. Like these two things can both be true at the same time.
And I think the film did a great enough job at showing that because, well, how do you make a man like Tony Stark? Well, you have a man, Howard Stark, who does love him, but doesn't always seem to make him.
The priority is focused more on his company and his inventions and doesn't seem to show the same love to his wife.
And well, no wonder Tony ends up the way he does because he's got to prove himself to his dad in a once again a way much better than Angley's Hulk, which I think is our punching bag for I guess, this episode, you know, because Tony wants daddy to love him. And it's shown here.
Kevin Schaefer:
Oh, absolutely. And I mean, yeah, just the way all that plays out. I mean it, you know, like years into.
Yes, there were a lot of obligatory world building elements they had to do. And again, Favreau wasn't as crazy about including those, but he still, you know, does. Is a great job of making a character driven story.
And, and yeah, it, it still really holds up. And I do love the action sequences. Yeah, they're like, oh, and I mean.
And yeah, with the recasting, another thing, you know, you can look up like why Terrence Howard left. But I, you know, I, I. And I did really like Terence Howard in the first one, but Don Cheadle I think really is roadie War Machine.
So, you know, it worked out.
But yeah, and I mean, and I do love the scene when the fight scene at the end, I'm like, yes, it's big, you know, robots fighting them and stuff, but it's, it's pretty cool. I also have to give credit for that scene because I get kind of.
There's a lot of this in the MCU where there is infinite collateral damage and, and you know, you're like cheering on while, you know, like battles are taking place and citizens are getting killed. I do appreciate in the final battle in this one, there aren't really any civilian casualties. Like there's destruction and stuff.
But I like that the, that final fight takes place like off in the woods and, and they're away from people.
That was refreshing because while the collateral damage obviously plays a part and paves the way for Civil War, you know, like, it gets a little exhausting and when it's not addressed, it's problematic. So I did like that that takes place there. I also love Sam Rockwell as Justin Hammer. Perfect casting there. I kind of wish we got to see him again.
But yeah, so there's still, I mean, yeah, it still holds up.
So with that in mind, now I'm really interested now because I was not expecting actually knowing your taste, like, I just did not expect you to put Iron Man 2 this high. So I'm now very interested in your ranking of these three movies.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, I'll go to one. Hulk 1 does an excellent job at introducing Tony to the regular general audience. I think two builds up on that even more. And Hulk is Hulk.
I mean, it's not like the Marvel's forgettable or Brave New World bad. Like, it is what it is.
Kevin Schaefer:
That's really interesting because, like, oh, we had the same the Fox X Men ranking super easy. We all had. We're in agreement there. I'm actually, I'm gonna go. Iron man is easily my number one.
It still remains one of my all time favorite MCU movies. Favorite comic book movies and then Hulk and then Iron Man 2.
So I got, you know, and actually, and I mean I, I give them like, you know, sort of similar ratings. Those are two. Not bad by any means, but you know, entertaining. But I, there's things about each I like but.
But I think there is a big gap between those and the first Iron man film. So it's really interesting. But. Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
Oh yeah.
Kevin Schaefer:
Excellent. So let's see what. Oh, and now this is a.
So we are talking about post credit scenes and there are numerous throughout what, you know, almost 40 movies now like that. Do you? I, I could give mine while you're thinking, but I.
Do you have like, you can list a couple too if you, I mean, I mean let's kind of like obviously the Avengers one, you know, is a game like that's, you know, a given. One of my. But one of my all time favorites though has to be in Spider Man. Far From Home.
When we had J.K. simmons, J. Jonah Jameson return, we played alone is a different version of Jameson. But still I was so happy that they brought Simmons to play the character again because no one else can do it like him.
And, and it was, and that one was such a brilliant scene because it was when Mysterio posthumously reveals Peter Parker to the world as Spider Man. That was, I'll always remember that in the theater. So that was one of my all time favorites.
But do you have Christian either a favorite or a couple of favorites?
Christian Ashley:
I mean, it's hard. I mean there are definitely better ones out there. But I do remember the initial first one the most because of how I felt.
Oh, once again they're going to be making more with some of these characters I love. That's great. Then of course the Avengers one where I was like, okay, yeah, Loki is our main villain. You know, makes sense.
He's why they become the avengers in Avengers 1 all the way back to the Wind. But then we get to Thanos and my little geeky heart just like exploded from happiness.
As someone who has read through Infinity Gauntlet like multiple times over before that movie had even come out, I was like, yes, yes, I want to see him on screen. Does that mean we're doing cosmic stuff and like not knowing all the rights issues? Can we get Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock and all this?
And obviously that's not what happened. But like the speculation that came just from seeing him on screen, it's like, yes, give me more of that. So I'm going to say Thanos's reveal,
Kevin Schaefer:
it was a mouth drop. I mean, you're already go through. We'll get to Avengers very soon. But, you know, you already go through this epic crossover movie. We're all.
We didn't need anything. You could have just said cut to the credits were good, but then they dropped that and yeah, it was just, I mean, nerd heaven. Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
Oh, absolutely.
Kevin Schaefer:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, Krishna, this was an absolute blast.
And before we go, do you have any recommendations either from anything we talked about tonight or something totally different? I'll give mine real quick. And that's the 90s Hulk animated series. That one also pretty short lived. Not, you know, as iconic as Spider Man. X Men.
Right. But it's. If you've never seen that. I remember, you know, loving that as a kid. I've rewatched it since and it really holds up.
It's so definitely check that out. You also have Mark Hamill playing. He played the leader, I think. Yeah, yeah.
Christian Ashley:
He was either him or the gargoyle. I think it was the gargoyle.
Kevin Schaefer:
I was the guy. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Yeah. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Awesome.
Christian Ashley:
So in the comics, there's been all this news about like the, the Armageddon stuff or whatever they're doing with Marvel. Whether or not that's going to be like a total reboot or not. Odds are probably not. But that got me thinking. It's been a while.
I hadn't read Crisis on Infinite Earth again, so I did that again and it definitely holds up. DC is a giant muddled mess just as much as Marvel's a giant muddled mess. But they have more time to get muddled up.
And Crisis at the time was the perfect way of like getting things back on track, of like establishing things before they would eventually go new 52, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, Crisis on Infinite Earths, it's
Kevin Schaefer:
the perfect blueprint if you ever want to reset your universe. That's kind of how you do it. Yeah. Fun fact. I got to interview Marv Wolfman years ago at a con. So that was a blast.
Christian Ashley:
Nice.
Kevin Schaefer:
Yeah, that was a lot. Yeah, that was a cool moment. Awesome. Well, Christian, thank you so much as always.
And we've got many more episodes in this series to go, so thank you all for listening, watching. We'll be talking about all the movies leading up to doomsday later this year. So stick with us and remember, we are all a chosen people.
