Andy Walsh and Kevin Schaefer dive deep into the vibrant world of indie comics, spotlighting the characters that resonate most with them as they ring in the new year. The duo passionately discusses their top picks, emphasizing not just the iconic nature of these characters but also the traits they aspire to embody while leaving behind the less desirable ones from the past year. From relatable everymen to complex, layered personas, they explore how these indie icons reflect their own experiences and aspirations. With a focus on characters outside the massive Marvel and DC universes, Andy and Kevin highlight the importance of indie creators in the comic book landscape, making this episode a treasure trove for fans looking to expand their horizons. Tune in for a relaxed yet insightful banter that’s sure to resonate with both die-hard comic enthusiasts and casual listeners alike!

Andy Walsh and Kevin Schaefer dive deep into the world of indie comics in a relaxed yet engaging discussion that feels like a chat between old pals. They kick things off by reminiscing about their own journeys through the comic book universe, noting how their tastes have evolved over the years. The duo emphasizes their appreciation for characters that resonate on a personal level, particularly those outside of the mainstream Marvel and DC realms. Walsh shares his top three indie comic characters, starting with Alex from 'Alex + Ada', a relatable everyman whose story explores love and autonomy in a sci-fi setting. Meanwhile, Schaefer brings up his own picks, including Abe Sapien from 'Hellboy', whose calm demeanor and intelligent nature reflect the kind of steady influence that resonates with Schaefer’s personality. The conversation is peppered with humor and insightful commentary, making it not just a discussion about characters, but a reflection on how these stories shape our understanding of ourselves and the world around us.

Embracing the spirit of independence in comic storytelling, Andy Walsh and Kevin Schaefer present a fresh take on iconic characters that often go unnoticed in the shadow of giants like Marvel and DC. The duo’s relaxed dialogue feels inviting, as they recount their formative experiences with indie comics and how these characters have impacted their lives. Walsh’s choice of Alex from 'Alex + Ada' highlights the emotional complexities of human-robot relationships, resonating with modern discussions about technology and empathy. Schaefer’s Abe Sapien offers a contrasting perspective, embodying intelligence and calmness in chaotic environments. Through their picks, they not only celebrate the diversity of indie comics but also reflect on broader themes such as friendship, identity, and societal issues. This episode is a delightful blend of humor, nostalgia, and insightful commentary, making it a must-listen for anyone looking to explore the deeper narratives within the comic book medium.

Takeaways:

1. Andy and Kevin dive deep into the world of indie comics, highlighting characters that resonate with them personally and reflect their growth into the new year.
2. The duo emphasizes the importance of relatable qualities in characters, suggesting that these traits could inspire listeners to emulate similar characteristics in their own lives.
3. They discuss the evolution of independent comics, showcasing how these stories often tackle complex themes that resonate with current societal issues.
4. Kevin shares his connection with Hazel from Saga, portraying her as a symbol of resilience amidst chaos, echoing the struggles many millennials face in today’s world.

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Hello, geekologists. Welcome. This is systematic geekology. We are the priest of the geeks.

And I am one of your geekologist, pop culture enthusiast Kevin Schaefer. And I am here with X Men connoisseur, esteemed geekologist, Andy Walsh. Andy, how are you tonight?

I am doing very well, thank you for that generous introduction. Kevin, how are you?

I'm doing really well. It's, you know, it's fine. What? This isn't a what we're geeking out on like a feature, but it's something I have to tell about you you real quick.

There's a podcaster and like YouTube post I've been following for years. Who he this year he's watching re watching every MCU movie and Fox X Men movie like every week leading up to doomsday. And he started a blog about it.

It's fascinating. So it's called like my yearofmarvel.blogspot.com.

i had to plug that for you because I think you would really enjoy it because he's doing both, like each movie and then comic tie ins and that kind of thing. And it's a well written blog. I really appreciate his perspective. So Hector Navarro is the author of it.

Excellent. That does sound right up my alley and maybe I will try to watch along.

It's pretty cool. Yeah. And he's also crafted a really interesting viewing order too. That's not order of how they were released. It's fascinating.

Okay.

And while we're not geeking out on things, I'm not geeking out on Will Rose, our co host, teased that he might be interviewing Al Ewing on his Thor podcast. So I am excited, slash not excited to hear or not hear that interview that may or may not be happening.

May or may not be. We'll have to see one that we did drop was interview with Rob Venditti, like I said. Actually, I can call a friend. I've known him for years.

He's one of the first comic creators I ever interviewed. So Will and I just interviewed him for this podcast, so you can go check that out.

But fair enough.

But yeah, well, and I say all of this because this is a very comic book centric episode. So I had to put a little tease there. But yeah, Andy, I'm really excited for this episode. We are going to be talking about indie comic book icons.

So obviously people like you and me, you know I'm wearing a Batman shirt right now. You have your Xavier logo in the background as always.

You know, we talk DC and Marvel all the time, but you And I are also big fans, enthusiasts of indie comic books. And so what we're doing in this episode is talking about each, for each of us, three iconic characters from indie comic books.

And in particular these are characters that we find relatable. So not just the ones that have their place in pop culture, but ones that we have a more personal connection to, sort of.

I'm really excited to see what we have picked here and this will be a really fun discussion. And before we get started, first off, I wanted to thank James Barrett. Thank you so much for the support, James. You rock. We really appreciate it.

And if you want to learn more about how you can support systematic ecology or if your first time here and you just want to look into the show a little bit more, check out the show notes.

You can see in the description there ways where you can support us and you know, you can follow us on all our social media pages and all over the Internet wherever you get your podcasts. But check that out. That will give you some good information on how best to help us out because we really appreciate listeners like all of you.

So Andy, I'm really excited for this one. So let's get right into it before we share our top three characters. What are some what's kind of your background with independent comic books?

Because again, you and I talk DC and Marvel a ton. But I'm curious kind of when you started reading books that are outside the big two.

Yeah.

So that made this challenging to kind of go through the list because I realized that while I've read a few non Marvel and DC books, most of that has happened in my adult years.

And so I don't know that these are necessarily formative characters in the same way that like Superman and Batman and Multiple man and some of the other people that I talk about regularly that I encountered as a kid growing up and sort of imprinted on those were easy names to come up with. But my independent comic reading definitely started more as a young adult.

So read comics in junior high and high school, mostly X Men because my friend got me into X Men comics.

And you know, I remember Image, you know, launching in the, in the early 90s as I, you know, as I was reading Comic as an X Men reader, it was hard to not be somewhat aware of the Image launch. But for whatever reason, the titles just didn't grab me at the time.

The one Image book that I did pick up at launch was Tribe, the Larry Stroman book. Because Larry Stroman had been the artist on Peter David's X Factor when that launched and he left that to go.

He was like in a second wave of artists who, who started up at Image. So that wasn't one of the launch titles, that was one of their second wave titles. And they published all of one issue of Tribe at Image.

Issues 2 and 3 eventually came out from another publisher. And then that was I believe it or that's certainly all I ever read. And I followed it for a while after that.

Then in college and after college I kind of got out of comics for a bit, just not having the time and. Or disposable income in the same way.

And then got back into it pretty much because Peter David came back to writing multiple man and then was starting to get more into listening to podcasts and reading blogs. And there was a lot more ways to engage with the fan community at the time.

And so that introduced me to a bunch of other books that I didn't know about otherwise. And I started paying more attention to. Okay, so.

And there were also more opportunities for writers and artists to do both Marvel and DC work and creator owned work or other independent work. So I just started paying attention more to who are the creators that I like and then following them and other things.

People like Kieran Gillen and Sy Spurrier and so forth. So, yeah, I'd be hard pressed to say what my first one was, but we'll talk about some.

Some of my favorites that I came across in that process as we go along here. But yeah, so that was kind of what I started.

Yeah, and I'm really glad you said that because it's been such a fascinating evolution with indie comics. Like, like you said in the 90s, that was when Image started. But you know, I was a toddler and young kid then, so I was not reading Spawn, you know.

But what's really interesting with my comics journey is that I started really collecting in late high school and then in college, because in college there was a comic book store. Right.

I went to NC State and there was a store right there on Hillsborough street and I had some disposable income and so I was able to collect books regularly there.

And that was literally a prime time for independent books because this was in the like Image revival boom where books like Saga and then later Paper Girls and a lot of Jeff Lemire stuff. And so many titles were coming out from a lot of creators who had been established at Marvel and DC and were now doing their own creator owned work.

And so these books were really, I mean like it was, they were the kind of stuff that weren't, you know, looked down on. I mean, the comics have this kind of all the back and forth of like, oh, you still read comics as an adult, I think.

But like with a lot of these titles it wasn't really that stigma there as much. These were kind of the really cool, more progressive stories that a lot of young adults and older adults were reading and had a massive appeal.

And so yeah, I was getting into it around then because growing up, yeah, I mean I mainly had graphic novels that I would get either at the library or, you know, for birthdays and Christmases, but those were all superhero oriented. And so I, when I got to college and I was collecting more regularly, it was great time for independent comic books.

And so that was kind of just kind of grew from there. And you know, my, as far as like going to the comic shops week to week, you know, that's got like kind of fizzled out.

I collect more trades and stuff now, but I've read, you know, hundreds of different independent titles over the years and, and avenues like Humble Bundle have given me access to a lot of those as well. So there's just a plethora of stories out there.

There's, you know, the medium has really evolved and there's a lot of different genres within indie books and some of my favorite creators are all of them. So.

Yeah, so anyway, it's been a really interesting evolution for me as a reader and just for comics as a whole, you know, to see how much indie books have evolved in the last, I would say especially 15 years or so. And I think it's still growing and now we have more adaptations of these stories in other mediums. So it's really fascinating to see.

Yeah, as you were talking, it was coming back to me. I think one of, if not the first books that got me to branch out was Morning Glories.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

So my wife and I were watching Lost at the time and it was kind of pitched as not exactly the same. Right. It's not a desert island or anything like that, but it's a kind of long form mystery storytelling kind of thing.

And one of the bloggers, Paul o', Brien, longtime X Men reviewer and blogger, was into it because it had a similar kind of dense, long form plotting like the X Men. And ironically that book got to about 50 issues out of a planned 100 and just petered out.

So we were all, a lot of us were kind of heavily invested in these very dense plots and mystery that we will never ever figure out what the end of that was. So it takes your chances with some of these indie books as to how they're going to turn out.

Like I said, Tribe was a book I was really invested in for all of three issues.

And that's the thing too is like, yeah, we, I think we've had this session on Saga before. It's like, I hope it gets to the planned number of issues that Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples have for it.

But yeah, we'll see how it all plays out because we've been on this journey for years now. And that, you know, that is the.

Because it's like with superhero books, it's, you know, they're meant to be long lasting, but there's not really a definitive end for Batman, Spider Man, Superman, Wonder Woman. It's more, you get, you know, different eras with the character, different creators, but with a set, established story in a creator owned world.

Yeah, you are very devoted to it and you want to see it through to the end and you hope that, that, that there are the creators are able to carry it through and get the proper ending. Yeah. Awesome. Well Andy, I'm very excited to hear your pick. So let's start with you with your number three.

So this is a character that is somewhat iconic in indie comics, but even more so that's relatable to you. So what is your number three pick?

Yeah, so for number three, I went with Alex from Alex plus Ada or Alex and Ada.

Okay.

Yeah, this was a series I ran Something like 15 or 20 issues. I think it was from Jonathan Luna and Sarah Vaughan in that kind of early, early period that I started reading these different indie books.

So it's a sci fi story about a world where you can purchase a human looking and acting robot to hassle chores or be a caregiver for a loved one who might need that kind of Care or all kinds of different. All the things you can imagine that you might need to hire a person to do. You can now purchase or rent or what have you, all these different robots.

And so Alex is sort of roped into getting one of these by some well meaning friends and, or family who don't want him to be lonely and think that, you know, he needs some. Somebody in his life, whether that's romantic or otherwise, just that, you know, they're worried about him being lonely.

And so this, this female robot, Ada, enters his life somewhat by surprise to him.

And over, you know, fairly early on, he starts, you know, worrying about things like autonomy and, you know, learns that there are robots who have become autonomous and are fighting for robot rights and so forth. And so he ultimately goes down the route of going through the jailbreaking process essentially to make ADA an autonomous robot.

And what follows then is how their relationship develops.

The trouble, obviously, that we can imagine that they might get into with the company and the government and all these different things, the tensions over robot rights. In some ways, there were echoes of some of the same themes in the Electric State last year, that film with Chris Pratt and Millie Bobby Brown.

And obviously all of our conversations these days seem to center around AI and is AI conscious? Will it be conscious? What kind of rights should we give to these large language models, so forth.

So it was a very prescient book in that regard, but yeah. And how much do I relate to Alex somewhat?

I mean, he was definitely kind of in every everyman kind of character, you know, just sort of going about a typical job, a typical, you know, typical, you know, sort of middle class suburban life and kind of gets caught up in trying to figure out how to be an ally. And I, you know, you can decide for yourself, you know, how well I do in these different things.

But, you know, it's certainly something that I would like to be better at is, you know, caring not just about my own needs and my own concerns, but the things that affect other people disproportionately compared to myself.

And, you know, I think there's something to be said about a character for all of his other flaws and whatnot, that, you know, kind of the core choice of the book was, you know, he had the opportunity to decide between his own will and his own wants and his own gratification or those of someone else in particular, those of the agency of a character or a person who is female coded.

We can talk about, you know, how gender applies to robots and whatnot, but, you know, certainly presents in a very traditional female fashion, and he chooses her agency, and I think that's a worthwhile kind of story to explore, so that's why I wound up picking that one.

Excellent pick. I know that title. Unfortunately, it's not one I've read yet, but who are the creators on that one?

Yeah, so it's Jonathan Luna and Sarah Vaughan.

Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, there's a lot of good sci fi comics I've read over the years, and that's certainly on my list, but excellent pick. Yeah.

I mean, like you said, it's. It's so relevant today with the rise of AI and how rapidly things are changing and. Yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of Jeff Lemire stories that I've read, too, that have similar themes, and so, yeah, it's a great pick.

Yeah, I, you know, Descender, Descendant, and Ascendant were definitely in.

Yes.

In my contention for, you know, with a similar kind of theme.

So that Descender is fantastic. Like, I mean, I. It was like, I was. I was thinking through some of the Lemuria books, and I love those stories. It just wasn't.

There wasn't any sticking out to me in terms of, like, oh, I really relate to that character.

Yeah.

Not that they're having. They're wonderful characters. It was just like, I just love the stories, but. But, yeah, That's a great book, though.

Yeah. Same. Even even though one of them was named Andy, it was just like, I'm sure that any of these are. Are me.

Right, Right. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, like, there's ones. It's like, okay, I have a little bit of a trait there. But, yeah, a lot of these stories, it's more.

I'm just attracted to the story itself more than, oh, I relate to this person.

Yeah. Yeah.

But, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, great pick, Andy. So, yeah, I was just going to.

Ask what your number three was, so go ahead.

Yeah, absolutely. So my number three is actually a character I was introduced to through a movie, ironically, which. Because, you know, at a young age, too.

And so I remember when I first saw the Guillermo del Toro Hellboy movies. Well, first I had to convince my parents to let me order it on Netflix back in the days when Netflix sent you discs, you know, before streaming.

But I asked if they could add that to the queue, and they were terrified that it was some kind of, like, satanic, you know, cult movie.

And I was like, no, it's just like, you know, it's a PG13 superhero movie, but from the first time I saw that movie, and even though I read the comics later on, I was really gravitated toward the character of Abe Sapien, who in the movie is played by Doug Jones. And there's a lot. I mean, while the Del Toro movies are very much distinctive vision from.

From the director and, yeah, they're different from the comics, I would say the characters themselves are pretty brought to life from the pages. I mean, they're a lot of the same personality traits and quirks and everything.

And so Ape Sapien is this Creature from the Black Lagoon type partner to Hellboy, who works with them in the. In the bprd, the Bureau for Paranormal Research and Defense.

And he's sort of the more calm, resonating spirit to Hellboy's more gung ho and rash, you know, fighter mentality. Abe Sapien is the more bookworm. He has a good relationship with the professor.

And I just love the aesthetic of the character, both in the comics and in the movie. So it was a character who really stuck out to me early on in that movie. I love Doug Jones performance.

And then later on when I read the comics, because, of course, that's how Hellboy originated in the Dark Horse comics created by Mike Mignola.

And Abe Sapien, I think, first appeared in the bprd, but then he got his own book later on, which I actually read the first volume of not too long ago and really enjoyed it. And so you're seeing Abe go on a solo mission, and he kind of doubts himself at first, but is able to be the hero there.

Yeah, I always just really like the character as someone who is, you know, a really faithful, loyal sidekick, but also a hero within his own right. He has intelligence, he has empathy. You know, there's a humorous element in the Del Toro films that I really liked.

And, yeah, this was just a character that I always was really fascinated by. And again, the whole Creature from the Black Lagoon amphibian aspect to him was just such a cool image. And it looks great in the comics.

And so, yeah, I have a big collection of Hellboy stuff from a Humble bundle, actually. I've got a lot of the books in physical media as well, but I have, like, Hellboy BBRD and Ape Sapien all in Humble Bundle there.

And it's great just going through those stories. And. Yeah, I mean, there's not too much to say is just I. I think about myself, like, at work and stuff like that and in situations and.

I don't know, I feel like I try to be that more calming presence, especially when Things get heated or when someone is doing something rash. Not that I don't have those. Also those tendencies, you know, in certain situations.

But generally I'm kind of the one who can take a step back, help keep everyone level headed and kind of move at that pace. And so, you know, Abe Sapien is very much that kind of guy. So just an all around cool dude.

One of my favorite fantasy creatures in comics and in fiction and.

Yeah, so it is an interesting one that it was first introduced to me as, like I said, a middle schooler through a movie, but that instantly stuck out to me and later on as I got into the comics, I loved him just as much there.

Very cool.

Andy. I don't know if you have any, like, background with Hellboy or with the comics or anything like that.

Yeah, so I also learned about Hellboy through that first movie. You know, an excellent movie. Possibly my favorite Del Toro movie because it's got, you know, it's not all horror. It's. It's got the. And fantasy.

It's.

It's got some sci fi and, you know, some Indiana Jones esque Nazi fighting and. Yeah, so there's a lot to like there. You know, Ron Perlman is fantastic as Hellboy, and. Yeah. And Doug Jones as Abe Sapien is another standout.

Now, why do I hear David Hyde Pierce's voice in my head with Ape Sapien? Am I completely inventing that or was it Doug Jones doing the, like, physical performance and David Hyde Pierce providing the voice?

Or am I just hallucinating?

I've got to look up. I could swear it was Doug Jones doing both, but that now has me very curious. I just always assumed it was. But let me. That's.

I'm gonna look that up while you're talking.

Okay. Yeah, so. So I learned about Hellboy from that, from that film.

I did wind up checking out some of the Hellboy comics and, you know, the second film, I haven't kept up with the later incarnations of Hellboy, but, you know, those first Del Toro films were very good. And yeah, the comics weren't. Weren't 100% my thing, but they're obviously well done. And Mike Mignola has a very distinctive art style.

He drew some X Horse comics and some X Man comics back in the day, or maybe cable comics or maybe both.

So.

Yeah, and like you're saying everything you said about Ape Sapien, he's a great character. He's one of those great sort of more straight man to Hellboy's very bombastic kind of shoot first, ask questions later kind of character.

Exactly, exactly. And I just looked it up. It is. Doug Jones did the voice in the body, so. Yeah, but I could see that as a great. I mean he's.

He does really interesting things with the voice there. But. But his physicality is certainly, I think what got him the role because he, he also does. He did Silver Surfer in the.

The Tim Story, Fantastic Four movie. Like that. But. But yeah, and oh, and Meg Mignola. Yeah. As a just fascinating career. His. His art style is so distinctive.

And yeah, his DC and Marvel work is great as well. I mean while he'll always be known for the Hellboy universe, there's just a lot of great work out there.

The, The Gotham by Gaslight Batman comic is a great one too. But yeah, so yeah, Abe Sapien is my number three as far as most relatable, most iconic. And I get it was cool that I. This is one.

Even though it's an independent comic, it also has a very cemented place in the wider pop culture sphere thanks to the Del Toro adaptation and a couple other movies too. But the Del Toro ones are the top tier for me.

Cool.

Awesome. Well, Andy, what is now your number two pick for most relatable, most iconic indie comic book character?

Yeah.

So for number two, I went with Susan Ptolemy from the book Giant Days by John Allison and originally Lissa Tremain and then later Max Serrin for much of the run. So this is a British comic book set.

It's more of a slice of life real ish world comic about three young women at university and it goes through their three years at university in the UK and then they graduate and that's the end of the book. So it has a nice kind of it's like 50ish issues.

There's three broken into three year chunks and yeah, just about the ups and downs of their lives as university students. And of the three. So Susan is. Well, there's Esther de Groot who is the dramatic gothy performance art and visual arts student. There is Daisy.

I'm blanking on her last name, but Daisy is the sort of. More.

It's been a minute since I don't remember the characters names. But it's a great book though.

Yeah. So Daisy is more kind of craftsy and outdoorsy y. So there's Esther, there's Daisy and then Susan is kind of the point of view character a little bit.

She's a pre med student, the sort of more level headed one. She has a background in other John Allison books as sort of a detective and.

Yeah, so between that sort of like detective y, problem solving, pragmatic kind of nature and her affinity for, you know, the health sciences, that was why, you know, I most connected with her.

Obviously there are lots of differences between she and I, but I thought it was useful to not just bring in male characters to the, to this conversation. And you know, Giant Days are just one of my top, if not my favorite independent comic book. So I wanted to get some representation in there somehow.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I'm Definitely not a McGraw, the mechanical engineer who is very good at building and carpentry and all that kind of stuff that was, that is and was not me in university. So yeah, I had to go with Susan. You know, some people might say I'm a bit more of an Ed and I could see that.

But you know, you got to pick one of the, one of the main characters from the book. Right. So yeah, it's a really fun story. It's very comedic. There's some serious drama at times as well.

But the art is just amazing in terms of the facial comedy and the physical comedy. Every page kind of tells a story. Almost every panel is its own kind of joke or story beat or whatever. Just a very well crafted comic.

Excellent pick. Giant Days is one that a comic book writer friend of mine got me into years ago.

And yeah, and like you said, it's just, it's so fascinating to have this slice of life book that's not sci fi or fantasy that is, you know, done in this medium so well. The art is fantastic.

It's wonderfully relatable characters and yeah, it is one of those really, I think even within comic circles it's kind of a hidden gem.

Like I mean it's won a bunch of awards and everything, but it's like, you know, even people who read comics every week might not have ever heard of it or picked it up. And it's just one of those that, yeah, it should be studied in schools, I think.

I mean it's just like for anyone who says like think comics is all superheroes and whatnot, like this is a perfect anecdote to that saying. Like no, here's a very grounded slice of life book that uses the medium so well to tell this story. So yeah, excellent pick. And I.

And, and like you said too, it's like, I mean, for the characters to be relatable, it doesn't have to be the same gender or experience as you. You can find elements of a character's story that you connect with. And that actually said, is there anything else you want to say on this?

Because that actually segues into mine very nicely.

I'll just add there was an extra layer of connection when my daughter went to high school and formed a trio of very close friends who mapped quite neatly to Esther, Susan and Daisy.

I won't embarrass her saying which one was which, but that was an extra level of amusement to kind of have my own Susan, Esther and Daisy wandering in and out of my house in my life for a few years there.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a great connection.

I love the, I mean it's just such a cool thing about storytelling in general is the way we can find those moments and those stages in life that we have that connect directly to another character's story. But yeah, awesome. Well, Andy, excellent pick.

And again, this segues actually very nicely into my number two pick, talking about someone who is not only from a very different world than me and also not the same gender, age, anything. But I alluded to Saga earlier and you know, you and I have discussed this book before on a comic book catch up episode.

But, but the character of Hazel, who is the main point of view character is someone I actually find iconic and relatable in a unique way.

Because for those you know, who've not read Saga or, you know, you probably heard the title if you're, you know, been in comic shops in the last 15 years or so.

But Saga is an epic sci fi fantasy from Fiona Staples and Brian K. Vaughan and it tells the story of Hazel is the point of view character and she's narrating the story of her life and she grows up as the child of two star crossed lovers from warring civilizations. Her parents were really forbidden to be with each other in a classic Romeo and Juliet sense.

And their civilizations have been at war for over a century. And she is this child who was born and immediately hated for her existence.

And while I do not have that experience at all, I want to point that out that I'm not the child of parents from warring civilizations and I don't have anything like that, you know, just. Well, I come from a very loving family and my parents are still together.

But the reason I bring this character up as someone relatable is because the beautiful thing about saga is that while it takes place in this epic fantasy sci fi world, it very much has this way of mirroring the world in our world in many ways.

So in terms of sociopolitical issues and in terms of the way people relate to each other and the way people can despise each other and how conflicts that really have no justification go on forever, all of that is in saga. And it makes it all the more human and all the more relatable.

And so for me, Hazel feels like a millennial in many ways of just like a child who is thrust into this world that is seemingly always on fire.

And there are these, you know, global air, in her case, intergalactic conflicts that are never ending and that leaders try to justify all the time, but that they're ultimately, they're just the result of bigotry and, you know, selfish ideologies. And I mean that wherever you stand politically, I think it's fair to say we live in a world where that's very much apparent.

I mean, as a millennial, I was a kid when 911 happened and you know, and have, you know, there's been numerous tragedies on a global scale throughout my lifetime.

So between 9 11, the pandemic, various turmoil both, you know, in the US and in the world as a whole, it definitely impacts how you grow up and it impacts, you know, the way you see the world.

And reading saga, that for me is what, like, I can relate to Hazel the most because she's a child who, you know, her life is dictated by so many other forces at work and ultimately civilizations who hate each other because they feel like they have to.

And it's just like in your longing for a better world for her and for her family and for everyone else and all these characters you come to love, but they're constantly offset by tragedy and, you know, conflicts that are never ending and escalating. And so, yeah, it's a, you know, in some way that might be a like, weird connection.

But also I think that's, again, the beauty of saga is it does this big, you know, epic story, but it's ultimately grounded in a lot of the experience, the experiences that we have as humans. And you don't have to be in an intergalactic conflict to see how the themes of this book resonate.

And so Hazel is just a very grounded down to earth character. And I, and it really helps that you have her voice narrating the story from the beginning, from issue one and, and, and It's.

It's funny too, because a lot of times I'm not as big on voiceover narration. Like, even when I write scripts of my own or stories, I try to avoid. Avoid that.

But this is one case where it works really well and you get that excellent point of view from her. And it adds so much depth and so much characterization. So, yeah, so that's just for me. Hazel is the.

The big, like, the biggest connection to Millennial readers. Speaking as Someone who is 32, growing up with all this stuff, I just. I see a lot of the ways she feels in ways I felt and ways I've grown up.

Yeah, that's really cool. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. We've talked about Saga before. It is one of the books.

It doesn't need a whole lot of promotion, I don't think, among comic book readers. But, yeah, it is very well done.

As you were talking, I was reminded Rick Remender wrote an essay in the back of Escape Number One, his recent book that is basically a World War II type story, but with anthropomorphic animals as the characters.

And he wrote about how depicting these events and these people as human, like animals, think like thundercats kind of thing, that creates some distance between the reader and the character that allows them to maybe see things about themselves that they wouldn't if the person on the page fit neatly into a pre existing bucket. Either a group that you like or a group that you don't like or what have you.

But we project all kinds of things onto people because we put them into certain buckets right away.

And when you're looking at a character that you just don't have a bucket for, it creates that distance that allows you to maybe see things a little bit differently. And, you know, it's hard to get much more different than a race of people who have television monitors for heads.

And I can definitely, as you were talking about Saga, I hadn't made that connection before, consciously. But everything that Raremender wrote in that essay could 100% apply to SAGA.

And I'm sure that that is a big part of what Vaughn and Staples are, why it is created the way that it is, whether they were totally conscious of the same things that he was talking about or not.

It's clearly one of the benefits or the merits of that book is the way that it allows you to examine the real world without the entanglements of all the real world identities and ideologies.

100%. I mean, yeah, comics aren't just escapism. I Think they're a way for like any storytelling medium.

Like good storytelling allows you to have more empathy for other people and to kind of examine yourself, examine your own mindset, examine the way you see other people. And yeah, I think saga does a beautiful job of that with its multi layered storytelling, its multi layered characters.

And yeah, so this is just one that, you know, really resonated with me. I still love the book.

And yeah, Hazel has been there, obviously from issue one, and I think for me continues to be the most powerful, relatable character and should be right up there with Batman and Superman in terms of most iconic comic book characters of all time. Awesome.

Well, Andy, I'm very excited to hear your number one pick here for most relatable, most iconic comic book character from the indie comic book world.

Yeah, so I said that I didn't imprint on most of his characters as a kid, but I had to think a little bit about my childhood. So I went with a character who comes from the comic books.

But my introduction, like yours with Apesapien, was in a different medium, that of the Saturday morning television cartoon. And I am of course referring to Donatello of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

So the Ninja Turtles, created as kung fu characters by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird.

I was not cool enough as an eight or nine year old or whatever age I was when those books started first coming out to be reading black and white independent comics for probably more mature readers. But I was cool enough to watch the Ninja Turtles on Saturday morning. And so, yeah, that got me hooked.

I wouldn't say that I followed the Turtles consistently or religiously. Since then, I've dipped in and out. I have read, you know, gone back and read some of the comics.

There's lots of comics and I haven't gotten to all of them yet. But you know, obviously they are formative. You know, that was definitely a significant moment in independent comics.

You know, that this book from Nowhere became a very popular cartoon show lineup of action figures, movies, live action movies, animated movies, video games.

I still have very fond memories of the afternoon that my friends and I rented teenage mutant NIN4, the time travel one, turtles through time, I think it is for the super nes. And went to my friend's house who had a super nes. And I'm pretty sure we just sat down and played through the whole game of a Saturday afternoon.

Or we certainly got very far with it if we didn't. But yeah, so they're just kind of a fun bit of my childhood and Donatello.

So I don't think this started with the 80s, but I think the 80s cartoons certainly refined the formula of you create a team and you give everybody a very particular personality set of characteristics.

And so all these teams had to have the smart one, the science one, whatever, who was the tech wizard or the computer wizard or the science wizard or whatever. And, you know, for the Ninja Turtles, that was Donatello. And, you know, that was kind of, you know, my introduction to. I mean.

I mean, I wouldn't say that the Ninja Turtles specifically were my introduction to, but those kind of characters, you know, that I kept getting drawn to those characters. You know, there's an interesting chicken and egg question of, is that why I was interested in science or because I was interested in science?

I was drawn to those characters, but there was definitely an affinity there that continued to grow over time. And I kept kind of gravitating towards, oh, if there's a science one or something like that, that. That was the character that I would latch onto.

And, you know, Donatello was the first and one of the standout ones there.

So, yeah, I mean, you know, the Ninja Turtles, you know, on the cartoon, you know, not the deepest personalities, not the most complex stories, but, you know, for a kid, you know, a story about brotherhood and friendship and, you know, navigating the prejudice of the prejudices of the world. I mean, the Ninja Turtles were also kind of in that defending a world that fears and hates them kind of category.

So there were definitely some good values there. And there's this Internet meme of.

As a child, I expected that more of my adult life would involve quicksand and some of these other things, the tropes from stories that turn out to not be such a big deal in life.

I think I'm realizing, as I was reflecting for this episode and reflecting on the Turtles, I think I realized that one of the things I expected from my childhood to be a bigger deal in adult life was being a part of some kind of squad or team where everybody had perfectly complementary skills and personalities, and we all worked together to accomplish missions. And, yeah, missions have been a much smaller part of my adult life than I expected.

Based on childhood of Ninja Turtles and a team and Knight Rider and Rescue Rangers and, you know, all those. All those kinds of things. Yeah, just not enough missions as an adult. I think maybe that's why I like escape rooms.

I think that's the closest to going on a Saturday morning mission kind of kind of adventure is doing an escape room. So anyway, that was a little bit of a tangent, but, yeah, that's My. That's my number one Donatello of the Ninja Turtles.

I mean, hey, Andy, you could count this podcast as group missions here where we have our own personalities. I try to relate at work, too, because. Well, I'll go ahead and say so. You and I think alike here. Why did I pick the exact same turtle?

Although Donatello is, like, close second for me. But this was also. The Turtles came to mind also for similar reasons as you. I grew up on. I think each one depending on, like, when you grew up.

It was that and then the 90s movies. So those are my introductions. But for me, Leonardo is my guy. Like, I mean, I love all of them, but I don't know if it was. There were many reasons.

I think I gravitated toward the character. It was. I mean, blue is my favorite color. I like. And just from a.

Like, when I had all the action figures, I like Leo the best because he had the swords. I just thought that was cool. And so there were a lot of. But he's also. Yeah, I mean, he's obviously the group leader, but.

And I kind of see him and Mikey as. But, you know, in many ways, like, they both kind of lead. I mean. Sorry, sorry, Ralph. I meant, yeah, Mikey, that would be a little too much. But.

But him and Ralph kind of have to, like, sort of tug of war a lot of times for leadership of the Turtles. And Ralph is more hot headed, but they also need each other, him and Leo.

And he is always going to splinter for advice and, you know, that mentorship. But yeah, I mean, the Turtles are just. They're so relatable and so cool for kids across, but for adults, too. I mean.

And the cool thing is, you know, being able to read the comics as adult because a lot of them, especially last Ronin, not exactly a kid's book. It has a lot of, like, darker themes in there.

And yeah, that's what I love about these characters is they are one group where I feel Like, I've grown up with them. They're a big part of my childhood. But they've also, you know, had this long lasting legacy for many generations.

And yeah, Leo was just always one I really related to, I thought was really cool. I love all of them and I like all the different personality traits and they have Donatello being the most intelligent of them and.

And very wise and also really cool.

Mikey being the goofy, kind of more party animal and Ralph being a little more hot headed, but also the one that will, you know, never let anything happen to his brothers and will fight to the last minute. And so, you know, I love all of them for different reasons. But. But yeah, I mean, Turtles was just like quintessential.

Like, I still remember getting the figures at Toys R Us for kids Listening. Toys R Us was the store you actually went to go buy toys from. You didn't get everything online back in those days, but. But yeah, it was quite a time.

And I mean, I got. I had the movies like on vhs. You know, those were just a key part of my childhood. So, yeah, I love that we both.

As soon as you started talking, I was like, okay, you picked Turtle two. I had a feeling you picked Donatello because I think every academic gravitates toward Donatello the most. Like, I mean, that's. But. But yeah.

And Leo kind of has that both of like intelligence and he can fight and you know, and like, but, you know, has his own immaturities he wrestles with as well. I just, I liked all the different layers to his character. So it's a good one. But yeah, I also.

Okay.

It was very much structured in that way. But. But the animations are great. That's where I had all the figures from. And yeah, I mean it had Casey, April, Shredder, all that.

A lot of favorite turtle stories out there. I also, since I'm wearing a Batman shirt, I love the Batman TMNT book is. And the animated movies are excellent.

Sure. Yeah. So is that. Is that your. Your pick is Leonardo for the. From the Turtles. That is funny.

He is my number one. Yep. Yep. So we like. Yeah. So we both. I ended on a Turtles high for this one, but yeah, excellent. Yeah. So I. This was a blast.

I really, I really enjoyed hearing your picks and I, I think we could go. There's so many more we could go for, you know, and.

And like I said too earlier, there are a lot of Books where in the indie world that I love, but, you know, and iconic characters, but not necessarily ones I relate to. And also a lot of indie. Big indie comics that, like, I mean, I've read some of.

But I like, like, I mean, I have a Spawn figure on my wall, but I haven't read a ton of Spawn. I just, you know, it's just a iconic character and I like the figure up on the wall there with some other horror stuff.

Like, I mean, they're more limited series or, you know, they may run like, you know, 25, 30 issues. So it's not like a big ongoing that runs 300 issues or whatever.

Yeah, I mean, you know, the indie comics world, you know, there's. There's a million things we could have talked about. You know, I was thinking about Will Eisner's the Spirit. Right. A seminal early work in comics.

You know, my daughter took a trip to France with their high school class and went to the Asterisk and Obelique theme park over there. Right. So those are two. I don't know if they're French or Belgian.

French comic book characters, you know, that are like the biggest thing in Europe in terms of independent comics. You've got all the manga. Right. There's lots of stories. The breadth of this kind of thing is quite substantial.

Oh, and manga, like, I. Manga is not. Oh, yeah. Manga is not even one I've delved into. Not because I have any, like, disdain for the medium. It's just like.

It's intimidating how much there is out there. But. But yeah, we have a. If you're a manga fan, we have a feature on. On systematic ecology called Manga Mustard. So you can.

Some of our hosts are big enthusiasts there.

Yeah. So if we. If we left out your favorite indie comic character, it is not a slight. It is just, you know, if you only can pick three, there's a lot of.

They're gonna get left behind.

So please join us in the comments of the video or on the Discord or somewhere and share yours as well, because there's lots of worthy characters and books out there.

Absolutely. And we do have a bonus question for Patreon subscribers, so you'll hear after.

And if you want to support our Patreon, the bonus question will be, what is an indie comic book or a character that maybe isn't relatable but still iconic and still that you gravitate to towards. So we'll be talking about that in the bonus round. But yeah, Andy, this has been an absolute blast. I really enjoyed hearing your picks.

And yeah, it was fun kind of talking to comics that aren't the big, big two. But certainly, you know a lot of great stories out there. So this was. I thank you for joining me here.

Yeah, absolutely. This is a fun conversation. It was fun to hear what you picked and I'm glad that we are united in our Turtles enthusiasm.

Absolutely. Gotta love Turtle.

Well, it was really funny too, because when I was making the list earlier, I was like, I was going through like Jeff Lemire titles and all that, and then it just, I was like, duh, like Ninja Turtles. I started as an indie comic, but yeah, so they're like great minds think alike here. But yeah, awesome.

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