Kevin Schaefer, Andy Walsh, and Christian Ashley dive deep into the mutant mayhem of the first three X-Men films in this episode of Systematic Geekology. Their mission? To prep for the upcoming X-Men appearance in Avengers: Doomsday later this year. They kick things off by reminiscing about their first impressions of the original X-Men movie, dissecting its impact on the superhero genre, and sharing their thoughts on how the characters were portrayed. As they move through X2 and The Last Stand, the trio doesn't shy away from addressing the glaring missteps and missed opportunities in the franchise, especially regarding character development and story arcs. Tune in for a thoughtful and witty discussion filled with nostalgia, critiques, and a sprinkle of mutant magic!

A deep dive into the nostalgia-inducing world of the first three X-Men movies, this episode of Systematic Geekology sees Kevin Schaefer, Andy Walsh, and Christian Ashley embarking on a journey to recall the pivotal moments that defined a generation of superhero cinema. They kick things off with the original X-Men film from 2000, exploring its groundbreaking approach to comic book adaptations at a time when the genre was still finding its footing in Hollywood. The trio discusses the film's significant themes, like the struggle for acceptance and the moral ambiguity of power, while also taking a critical look at its deviations from the source material.

They reminisce about their first viewing experiences and how the movie introduced them to beloved characters like Wolverine, Professor X, and Magneto, all portrayed by a stellar cast that has stood the test of time. As they dissect the film, they touch on the cultural impact it had, setting the stage for a comic book movie renaissance that would follow. A blend of personal anecdotes and insightful commentary makes this segment a must-listen for fans eager to revisit the origins of the X-Men franchise.

Transitioning to X2: X-Men United, the discussion shifts to the sequel that many fans consider a hallmark of superhero filmmaking. Kevin, Andy, and Christian delve into how X2 expanded upon its predecessor's foundation, introducing new characters like Nightcrawler and giving existing ones more depth and arcs that felt more balanced. The opening sequence involving Nightcrawler's infiltration of the White House is highlighted as a standout moment, showcasing not only exhilarating action but also the film's thematic depth regarding prejudice and acceptance. The hosts share their thoughts on how the film navigated complex relationships and conflicts among the characters, particularly the uneasy alliance between Xavier and Magneto in the face of a greater threat. The group also reflects on the film's legacy and its role in shaping the narrative landscape of the superhero genre, establishing a standard that many future films would strive to achieve. This segment is filled with fond memories and critical insights, making it a perfect nostalgia trip for longtime fans and newcomers alike.

Finally, the episode wraps up with a candid analysis of X-Men: The Last Stand, a film that has garnered mixed reactions over the years. The hosts tackle the ambitious yet flawed attempt to merge the Cure storyline with the iconic Dark Phoenix saga, lamenting the missed opportunities to fully explore each narrative. They discuss how the film's chaotic production led to a disjointed experience, with key characters like Cyclops receiving little to no development.

The conversation touches on the film's failings in comparison to its predecessors, particularly in terms of character depth and thematic resonance. Yet amidst the critiques, there are glimmers of appreciation, such as Kelsey Grammer's portrayal of Beast and the potential that the storyline held, had it been executed with more care. As they navigate through the highs and lows of the film, the trio reflects on the lessons learned from the trilogy as a whole, setting the stage for future discussions on the X-Men's cinematic journey. This final segment serves as a reminder of the complexity of adapting beloved source material and the challenges that come with evolving a franchise over time.

Takeaways:

1. The podcast dives deep into the first three X-Men movies, examining their cultural impact as they gear up for the upcoming Avengers: Doomsday.
2. Kevin, Andy, and Christian share nostalgic memories of the original X-Men film, highlighting how it shifted the superhero genre landscape back in 2000.
3. They discuss the character dynamics, particularly the complexity of Rogue and her journey, which resonates with themes of identity and acceptance.
4. Listeners learn how the trilogy's writing struggles led to missed opportunities, particularly in portraying the characters' depth and moral complexities.

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Foreign which mutants do you want to see in Avengers Doomsday?

Hello, this is systematic geekology.

We are the priest of the geeks and I am one of your geekologists, Kevin Schaefer here with Christian Ashley and Andy Walsh.

Christian, Andy, how are you guys tonight?

It's a nice night.

Excited.

This, this is one I will especially Andy.

We have, I mean Christian obviously too, but like Andy, this one in particular I had to get you on for because I don't know if we've actually discussed the movie specifically.

We've talked X Men comics plenty of times, but this I'm actually really curious to get your both your thoughts here.

But yeah, so, so the other day for listeners viewers, Christian and I were texting and I follow a blog that is where a blogger podcaster I know I've been following for years, Hector Navarro.

He started a blog this year called My Year of Marvel where he, he's chronicling all, rewatching every MCU movie, every Fox X Men movie leading up to Avengers Doomsday, which of course comes out in December of this year.

And he's doing retrospective thoughts on each movie, reviewing tie in comics.

And I was talking with Christian and I wanted to do something like that.

I figured it would be difficult to do an episode for every single movie because with the combining the Fox X men and the MCU, we're looking at like over 50 and you know, we've got a lot of episodes.

And you know, I hate to tell viewers out here, but we do not do this for a living as much as we would want to, as we love this is something we do for fun.

But I still wanted to do something to that effect.

So that is all that said, this is the start of a new series called Doomsday Prep.

And so while we can't go through an episode, do an episode for every single movie, we, we decided to group these together and so tonight we're going to be looking at the first Fox X Men trilogy.

So x men x 2 and the last Stand.

So Christian and I were both on board and I knew I absolutely had to have Andy on this one because if you've listened to systematic ecology at all, particularly comic book catch up, you know that Andy is a huge X Men fan.

So much so that Multiple man is his favorite comic book character of all time, which I love that.

And so I'm really curious.

This will be a really fun discussion.

So, so we are going to, you know, go through each of those movies, kind of share our thoughts, look at them retrospectively.

So I'M really excited and if you are new to the show, please, or if you've been here for a while, please like rate review.

We really appreciate it.

Any support helps us out a ton.

So tell your friends.

And if you click on whether you're watching this on YouTube now or if you're listening to this later, you can click on the description and you can find ways there to support the show.

So we really appreciate it.

Well guys, before we get into the main topic tonight, just briefly, what are some things you guys have been geeking out on?

Well, I'm continuing on, trying to watch every horror movie by chronological order.

An very interesting movie.

I really enjoyed it and I had preconceptions that were totally wrong.

That's interesting.

I do like, that's one I've not seen.

I know the history of it and, and, and the Batman inspiration, but that's fascinating though.

Yeah, well, I thought I was going through the whole MCU catalog, but going through every horror movie, like chronologically of all time, that's, that's quite a feat there.

Christian.

I love it.

Yeah, I have no life.

It's fine.

I mean, hey, like, even if we did, we would still opt to, you know, just consume movies, comic books.

But.

Yeah, but Andy, what about you?

Well, I've been sucked into the mixed doubles curling at the Olympics.

That was exciting to watch the US Pair win the first medal for the US in that event.

And also, I don't think I mentioned this book on the podcast yet that I got for Christmas.

It's called the Mimicking of Known Successes and it is a essentially it is a gender flipped Sherlock Holmes on Jupiter.

And it is as delightful as that sounds, or maybe more delightful, depending on your estimation of that premise.

But yeah, it's a cozy murder mystery set in the future in a sci fi premise on Jupiter, a permanent human colony on Jupiter.

And the mists and fog that are created by living on a gash planet stand in for the fog of the English moors.

And so it really works much better than I thought as like, like a very straightforward Sherlock Holmes pastiche or homage.

So there's several more in the series that I'm hoping to get to at some point.

But yeah, I would recommend those books.

That sounds fascinating.

What's the name of that again, Andy?

The first one is called the Mimicking of Known Successes.

The author is Malka older and I believe there are three total so far.

Interesting.

I love the title.

That's fascinating.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah.

And then on my end.

So, like, I'm gonna make people jealous depending on if you're a Noah Kahn fan, but I won the Ticketmaster war yesterday and managed to secure tickets for Noah Khan in July.

And I've been very much geeking out on his newest single, the Great Divide.

That's also the name of the tour and his upcoming album.

But the music video he released for that is fantastic.

So, wonderful artist and really excited for that show, especially since I've been mostly hibernating throughout January.

I'm very much ready for summer for that.

And galaxycon will be the same weekend, so I'm sure I'll be exhausted after, but it'll be well worth it.

But.

Yeah, but surprising.

I. I thought when I got on into the queue on Ticketmaster and There were over 4,000 people ahead of me, I was like, oh, it's not going to happen.

But somehow I was blessed and I made it through.

So, you know, my condolences to anyone I know.

I know there were many who were not as fortunate, but.

But I am excited there.

So.

Awesome.

All right, guys, well, let's get into it.

And, you know, this way.

This is fascinating.

I'll just give, you know, I'll give this a brief spiel here as far as what, you know, this movie is about.

It opens with a little bit of Magneto's origin in the Holocaust and also Rogue's origin create, you know, establishing this ensemble dynamic.

Rogue and Wolverine become the point of view characters as the mutants who are introduced to the world of Xavier, the world of Magneto.

Magneto has his own plans with the Brotherhood of Evil and is planning an attack on Liberty Island.

Bunch of superhero stuff ensues from that.

But, yeah, this was.

And this came out at a time when, well before the.

When comic book movies dominated the box office and.

And certainly there hadn't been even many solo origin movies.

So a big team up like this was really revolutionary.

Also before, I just want to put a note out there before we get into a discussion, it's pretty well documented that, like, the directors we're going to discuss tonight are pretty well documented as pretty horrible people and have abusive background.

I just want to put that out there.

That's a little.

We're, you know, not really Going to get into that, but it's like, I feel a little weird saying bryan Singer and Brett Ratner and talk about the work, but we're just going to talk about the work itself.

But I did want to put that out there because I know they've had both unfortunately, very, you know, a lot of allegations, reports, etc.

So.

But, you know, I'm really curious for you guys.

First off, what do you guys remember about seeing this movie for the first time?

Andy, let's start with you because you are again, the resident X Men expert.

Yeah, I mean, I remember the circumstances around this movie, I think a little bit, even more than I remember my response to the movie.

I had graduated from college, I was engaged to be married, and enrolled in a graduate school program to start that fall.

So a big transition period in my life, and I was working that summer in Tower Records.

Boys and girls, gather around.

Once upon a time, we sold music in stores on physical platters that spun around.

And some of them were called records, some of them were called cassettes, some of them were called CDs.

And there were places called Tower records and other record stores.

You go and buy this music.

And I worked at such a place.

It was a really fun job, had a great time there.

And I just remember driving home from Tower Records one Friday night and going, oh, hey, I have a car and money and time and I can just go see a movie in the movie theater if I want to.

And that was.

I just remember kind of being like, oh, yeah, I can.

I'm an adult now and, you know, not.

Not so much, you know, beholden to what my parents tell me what to do, I can just go see this movie.

And so, yeah, so, you know, I remember kind of cruising around trying to find a movie theater that was showing and a showing that was working.

And yeah, it was definitely.

It was definitely exciting for the reason you point out, you know, we had had kind of a lull in comic movies.

The Batman and Robin had come out.

You know, at the time, it felt like it was ages between Batman and Robin and Spider man and X Men.

And then looking back, it was only a couple of years.

There really wasn't this fallow period and there had been Blade in there as well.

So there really wasn't this fallow period of superhero movies the way that it sometimes gets portrayed in hindsight.

But, yeah, at the time it was made A big deal that Batman and Robin had done poorly and that there wouldn't be any more of these silly comic book movies.

And so the X Men had to be very serious and wear black leather and not not be so colorful and so forth.

So it was definitely a mixed bag in terms of, yes, it's exciting to see the X Men.

Yes, it's exciting to see a whole team of characters introduced for the first time and brought together well.

But also there were a lot of compromises and a lot of changes from the comic books, not all of which I think were for the better.

And so it was definitely not that they kind of cancel each other out, but for everybody thing that you can list that this movie does absolutely right.

You know, casting Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen and Hugh Jackman, you can point to, you know, and retaining the pathos that comes with the Magneto's holocaust origins and so forth.

You can point to, you know, things like, you know, Wolverine is too tall or Rogue, you know, is completely unrecognizable as the character from the comics to the costumes and so forth, as things that, as a X Men comic book fan, were kind of.

Maybe kind of caught in your crawl a little bit.

But yeah, it was definitely exciting.

I think it was more positive than negative overall.

At least it was a positive experience to see.

It got me excited about future X Men movies and got me excited.

There was a period where I wasn't reading the comic books quite as closely, but, you know, got me.

It would eventually get me, you know, kind of back to back interested in reading the comics as well.

Absolutely.

And yeah, I mean, you can totally see the.

And I mean, it's been documented that the influence of the Matrix and like you said, Giant, you know, when Hollywood was afraid of making, you know, quote unquote silly comic book movies or anything that really brought the comics themselves to life and wanted to go for that more gritty, realistic, edgy approach.

And this is an interesting, I think, you know, balance between the two.

We'll get into that.

That more.

But, Christian, you and I are closer in age.

And like, I did not see this one in theaters when it came out.

I was too young.

Do you remember if you got to see it then?

Or like, what.

What was your background with this one?

We saw it fairly early, my dad and I. I can't remember if anyone else came with us.

Probably not, because we will probably be the only two who would care.

My brother would have been too young.

I was 10 when this came out, or thereabouts.

And I do remember I really like, I knew the X Men from the cartoon.

I had like read a. I hadn't read the X Men comics at that point in time.

Most of my experience, comics wise, just came from when Nightcrawler was helping Spider man, the Punisher against Jigsaw or Iceman was showing up to help him out with this corrupt mayor or like the Marvel team up stuff or Secret wars was probably what I knew them most from reading those.

But then seeing them on screen, it's like, oh man, I'm 10 and this is awesome.

And I'm like, well, why is Rogue not look like Rogue?

Like, it doesn't make sense.

Like she should be able to fly and she has super strength.

And I think that was the first time my dad was ever able to explain the idea of other companies owning, you know, characters versus this company doesn't.

And like being so disappointed, but also really excited because I got to see Wolverine on screen and Cyclops and Professor X, Magneto and all these other things.

It's like, oh man, is it a perfect movie?

Absolutely not.

But you know what?

It got the X Men on the screen.

And you know what?

If that's the first time they're able to do it, this first time they were able to do it and it worked.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you know, and it's interesting, like Rogue is the biggest deviation, I would say, at least in this movie from the comics.

But I also just looking at it as a movie itself, I do love what they do with her from a story lens.

And I love Anna Paquin.

And I think like, you know, it was a.

But it was an interesting, you know, to have her story being.

Oh like, you know, all.

All these other characters have these cool powers for her.

It's like she's terrified of hers.

And it has, it explores that those themes of the dichotomy between, you know, like some mutants that are really embracing their identity and their powers and then others who are feel like it's a curse.

And that remains a theme throughout not just this trilogy, but throughout the Fox X Men universe.

And so.

So I like that as a.

But, yeah, but it is the thing with adaptations and again, going back to, you know, all of the reasons that this is a different look from the comics and the cartoons and, you know, where Hollywood was at the time.

But yeah, for me, yeah, again, so I was only.

I was about seven and I mean, I definitely remember seeing the Spider man movies in theaters, but I don't know that my parents would have taken me to X Men like, ah, so like, funnily enough, I do.

Like, I remember because I, because I started recollecting the figures from these movies a few years ago.

But I had, I did have several of these for Christmas that year because I remember having Professor X and Magneto from the movies, like for Christmas that year.

So I was still getting the toys.

But I don't know, I can't remember honestly exactly when I watched this movie, but it was probably a little bit later on dvd.

But yeah, so I honestly don't remember my reaction to it at the time.

You know, I also grew up on the 90s cartoon, hadn't really read the comics yet at this point.

But you know, I was familiar with the characters or not x2 had more like that came out at a better time where I could really watch these.

And I'll get into that in a little bit.

But, but for this movie, when I rewatched it a few weeks ago, what I was amazed by was, you know, like I said, it's an ensemble story and it has really four central characters with Xavier, Magneto, Wolverine and Rogue, along with a cast of supporting characters like Gene and Storm and Cyclops and everyone.

And what I was really impressed by and surprised was this movie is only an hour and 45 minutes and it manages to, I would say, balance, you know, especially those four leading roles quite well.

You know, you understand who they are, you understand their motivations, they're not over explained, but you get, you know, okay.

Xavier believes in a future where mutants and humans can coexist peacefully.

Magneto believes in mutant superiority.

Wolverine is a loner and, you know, has amnesia and he's desperate in many ways to learn about his past, but he doesn't know where he fits in.

Rogue is also an outsider who is afraid of her powers.

Like it sets all of that up really well and it sets up the character dynamics.

It has a good, you know, action adventure superhero story in there, a good final battle and it does it all under two hours.

And you know, you have movies today that are, you know, two and a half, three and they don't even cover that, that don't have like, you know, compelling character arcs.

And so I was really impressed by that on a rewatch, but, you know, so that was sort of my reaction.

But Andy, I know you said you, you know, you were more, you remember more the feelings around the movie at that time versus like how you actually thought about it, you know, the cultural impact.

But if you had to get, you know, thinking about your thoughts on it, Overall, what would you say about this movie now?

And you can compare it now to, you know, all the other superhero blockbusters that have come out since.

Sure.

Well, you know, following up on what you just said, shout out to Zach Penn, who gets a writing credit on this film and a writing credit on the first Avengers film.

And I think both of those do a very good job of introducing an ensemble of characters in a very economical way.

You know, how much of that is him?

Couldn't.

Couldn't tell you.

But, you know, he is the credited common writing line there.

Yeah.

You know, so I, you know, I. I get what they, you know, like, like you said about Rogue.

You know, I get why they had to change that.

And I, you know, I think I appreciated that at the time that, you know, the whole Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, Carol Danvers of it all was too much to.

To fit into her backstory.

You know, you need that kind of audience surrogate character, and you get, you know, she kind of serves that role.

Wolverine kind of serves that role to some degree, you know, and they.

So they, you know, kind of merge her with Kitty Pryde, despite the fact that Kitty Pryde also appears as a character in this film played by one, the first of three different actresses.

Yep.

Throughout the comedy or actors.

Apologies.

And so, yeah, you know, I get that we're doing.

Like I said, I think it does more well than it does in order.

You know, the overall shape of it was positive.

It didn't quite feel.

I think.

I would say that it didn't quite feel exactly like the X Men to me.

Maybe it's the costumes.

I think it's more the lineup.

A big part of what I like about X Men, this is something Will Rose and I have in common, is we like team books.

We like the dynamics of team books, the way characters interact with each other, those different relationships and so forth.

And so one thing that's always mystified me about some of these comic book films and TV shows or whatever, so they'll just take kind random characters.

And the X Men movies have gotten worse and worse about this over time, especially in the.

In the more recent films that we aren't discussing tonight, but we'll probably get to.

They'll just, you know, grab just like, you know, playing lottery or roulette or something.

They'll just, you know, spin the wheel and okay, this character and this character and this character.

Those characters have never interacted on the page before.

They have no established dynamics.

That's not to say they couldn't have an interesting Dynamic, but why don't you.

There's so many interesting relationships in the comic books that have been established for you, that have been road tested, demonstrated to have long lasting appeal.

Why don't you use more of those?

And so, yeah, to see this lineup, I think that was kind of my biggest disappointment with the film is just that it's a lineup of characters a lot of whom don't really have either don't have relationships in the comics or don't have the relationships that are depicted in the film.

Obviously the Magneto Xavier Dynamic gets a lot of attention in these films.

The Cyclops Rogue, I'm sorry, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Wolverine triangle gets a lot of attention in these films and those have their precedence on the page.

But the Wolverine Rogue relationship is much more like the Wolverine Kitty relationship from the comics.

Storm doesn't really have the dynamic with any of the characters that she has.

And she's such a rich character and has such nuanced relationships with these characters on the page and we see very little of that on screen.

And yeah, so, you know, I think, and it's not an original criticism, but yeah, I think that's the, maybe the biggest shortcoming of these films is that there's so much emphasis placed on Wolverine, placed on Xavier and Magneto.

And obviously there's a lot of thematically rich material to draw from there.

And so you can see why Hollywood wants to keep going back to them.

And then you've got such compelling actors that they've cast in those roles that obviously you want to give them as much to do as possible.

But, you know, Halle Berry is no slouch herself.

James Marston is delightful in many another film.

And, you know, so yeah, there were definitely folks on the sidelines who could have done more in these films.

But what the films do, well, they do very, very well.

And it helps to smooth over

the

less exciting bits or the less satisfying bits.

And then there's also just, there is a lot of fun little fan moments they do for every once in a while you'll just get, oh, the basketball court is opening up for the X Jet to take off as depicted not just on the page in the comics, but in handbook manuals and things of the official blueprints of Xavier's mansion.

That's canonically where they park the plane.

Or the little, you know, kid mutants that get like 3 seconds of screen time that, you know, you can go, well, just based on their power.

I know who that is, even if they don't give them a name.

But it's fun to see that.

That, you know, that Wizkid or whoever gets a little bit of a nod.

So, yeah, like, there's a lot to be, a lot of fun to be had.

There's definitely some shortcomings.

But, you know, and I've been.

I just recently rewatched all these films because I've been following along on your recommendation with Hector's blog.

And yeah, I think I was more positive on them than I expected to be after I've been kind of telling myself, oh, I can't wait for the MCU to do the X Men.

Right.

And I've kind of been disappointed that they keep kind of bringing back the Fox X Men and so forth.

But I think partly that's colored by Dark Phoenix and X Men Apocalypse and so forth.

And so many of the more recent films have been underwhelming in a way that I've maybe lost my appreciation for what these early films do did well.

So it was fun to revisit them and be reminded of that again.

Yeah.

Just as a spoiler warning, I'll have much nicer things to say tonight than I will when we get to some of those later titles that you just mentioned.

But yeah, but oh, and I totally agree with you about Cyclops and Storm.

That is the one of like, like you said, I get why they want to emphasize, you know, Xavier Magneto, Wolverine, especially when you have perfectly cast roles there and you have a lot of thematic to draw from.

But at the same time, Cyclops and Storm, great characters, comics that they made really one note and they had great actors in the roles, is Storm.

Of course, we have to bring it up that the infer at the end of this movie where, I mean, I'd say the dialogue is pretty good for the most part.

But then in that final battle, the infamous line where Storm says to, you know, you know what happens to a toad when he's struck by lightning?

Same thing that happens to everyone else.

I was like, oh, gosh, you made Halle Berry say that.

Like, what?

Come on.

Which is a result of a huge script change.

Yes.

Because that was going to be like his catchphrase in the original draft, but now it's the non sequitur.

It's just like there are many times I'll probably say this repeatedly throughout viewing the Fox X Men movies where it's like, just put us in a time machine, the three of us in a time machine.

Get us into the writer's room.

Because we could easily save several.

But that's one of the Cool things about this film, though, is it actually created something huge for the comics in that Magneto's helmet is what blocks Xavier's telepathy.

True, that had not existed prior.

And I had Mandela effect with myself into thinking that it existed prior, but no.

And they invent this for the movie, but it's one of those things.

In hindsight, it's like, why wasn't this a thing beforehand?

Because of their natural antagonism.

I love what this does.

This movie has some great scenes that have lasted to me to this day, like opening Holocaust.

Magneto activating his powers for the first time.

As someone who was studying that for the first time as a kid, and then seeing it on screen made that very real to me.

Gosh, the death of it is Senator Kelly in the film right?

When he's injected with the mutant gene and he becomes that blob and then disintegrates into goo.

It's like, as a kid, I was horrified for years by that scene.

But you could buy that action figure.

I love that.

I love how many toys are made of iconic moments like that.

Other changes they make, like mystique, like making her, you know, an already very attractive woman into like, oh, she's not wearing anything, by the way.

We're gonna cast Rebecca Romaine and we're gonna make her go through all that.

But then that influences things in the comics a little bit, too, to where, you know, some.

Is the uniform she's wearing part of her natural outfit, or is there something she's actually wearing?

I'm sure they did something beforehand about that.

I'm not 100, but I mean, of course, you know, Wolverine.

We were, goodness gracious.

What's the.

This miniseries that came out that actually the origin explained his past that had not come out.

It's just called Wolverine after this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Because we're building up on some of that right here.

And obviously, the hype of this film as well as fans wanted to know it for years, but now they had the impetus to actually go and make that years after the fact to explain his origins, because it was one of those people big on, oh, we want the ambiguity.

I was like, no, actually, explain it.

Let us know what happened.

Oh, absolutely.

And that's a great comic.

I mean, they, like, sometimes prequel origin ones like that are hit or miss.

But now the Wolverine origin movie is a topic for another day.

But, yeah.

And, you know, and.

Well, I'm glad you brought up a little mystique there too.

Because that is, I would say, a major criticism throughout these movies.

The, you know, the.

Not that there aren't strong female characters and wonderful actors in these movies, but the emphasis on sex appeal and, you know, and like women in these movies being half naked repeatedly or, you know, that was, I would say, common theme throughout a lot of these.

And that's something that I hope the MCU one will rectify.

But.

But I love, I mean, but that is it.

You know, Mystique is great.

I.

And I do love the.

The villains they picked here.

Having Toad and Sabertooth here as well.

And there's.

You know, I mean, it's a.

You get some really great moments.

I. I still love the.

The scene when Sabertooth first shows up, when Wolverine and Rogue are on the run shortly after they met.

It's a great sequence there.

And that's when Cyclops and Storm and Gene show up.

You know, love that moment.

The literary island as you can, still holds up really well.

You know, anytime Xavier and Magneto are just talking, I could, I think, like Ian McKellen.

I think I could listen to him read the ingredients to Cheez its and it would sound Shakespearean.

Same with Patrick Stewart speaking.

Oh, quick side note.

If you go watch Ian McKellen's recent interview on Colbert and just go watch it because he does a Shakespeare monologue at the end that is jaw dropping.

So I just, you know, the dude is still a legend, but.

But yeah, so, I mean, there are many strengths.

I mean, I think we talked about some of his weaknesses.

I don't know.

Are there any other.

I know we've still got two movies to cover in this episode, so.

But.

But those are, you know, I.

As far as, like, where I would put this movie in relation to the others, like, well, we'll do ranking at the end, but.

But my overall thoughts is I think it still holds up quite well as a superhero ensemble movie.

Not perfect by any means.

And, you know, as far as the deviations from the comics, some of it works, some of it doesn't.

I'm glad that they joke about the rejecting the yellow spandex, you know, in a meta line there.

That's always, I think, one of the best moments in the movie.

You know, casting, I think is pretty great across the border.

You know, they.

I think the main weaknesses come from, you know, it's not just with this movie, but it's kind of a symptom throughout the Fox X Men movies.

Is that we get kind of the emphasis on the same characters over and over again.

Whereas there are a lot of interesting ones that they make pretty one note or, you know, just not explored nearly as much as could be.

And you know, but overall I think it still holds up pretty well.

I also really like the score by Michael Kamen.

He was one of my favorite composers who I think he passed away short not long after this one, but he did Mr. Holland's opus and the Iron Giant.

So one of my favorite composer composers of that time.

But yeah, so it, it certainly has its upside, ups and downs.

It's not one of my all time favorite comic book movies.

But for, you know, 26 years later and there have been, you know, it seemed like a thousand since then, it still is quite enjoyable and, and again, I like that it's pretty tight at, you know, just under two hours.

I'll say the greatest strength about this, these, the franchise as a whole is casting.

Yeah, like Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen, Hugh Jackman, so on, so forth with our cast here.

Yeah, every now and then there's going to be a stinker.

But for the most part they are the characters.

They look like them, they speak like them.

I mean Patrick Stewart, I mean someone had made the joke two years beforehand, I think in the, I think it was the Planet X novel crossed over between X Men and Star Trek where they had said Professor X, you know, Captain Picard, you kind of look the same.

And then two years later we get that.

And yeah, it's kind of one of those easy fan things you could suggest, but like seeing it on screen.

He has the power to be Professor Xavier and me and McKellen has the gravitas to be his opposite force.

But there's also that friendship between them that both actors are portraying because they're also real life friends, but they're also acting opposite each other and can show that they can be enemies too.

Yeah, I could gush about them, but I just want to say casting, if you want to go for the greatest strength, this probably my number one pick.

Absolutely.

And since you mentioned the fights holding up quick shout out another Matrix influence.

They brought in Hong Kong legend Corey Yuen to do the fight.

Corey and KE Kwan of Short Round fame and now also an MCU character in his own right.

This is one of his handful of credited stunt performer roles.

When Koi Khan won the Oscar a couple years ago and photo resurfaced of him with Hugh Jackman on the set and I was like, this is awesome.

Like, dude, it's a legend and I'm so happy for him that he's had a bit of a renaissance in the year since.

He's.

He's wonderful.

But yeah, awesome.

Well, any other thoughts?

I know we got, you know, the rest of this trilogy to cover tonight and I'm.

I'm very excited to talk about the next one.

So.

So X2.

Was it two or three?

Okay, that's three on the poster right there.

Three.

Yes.

Got it.

So.

So this is the one that, you know, again, I don't.

While I hadn't remembered as much like watching the first one, the first time x2, I remember having really on DVD and on TV like a lot throughout, you know, elementary, middle school, this felt like, I feel like this was the kind of, you know, it's, you know, it's very, it's different from Spider man and you know, it's in many ways more mature.

But this felt like the really cool like superhero movie to really get on board with.

And I was still young at the time, but, but yeah, this one hooked me and, and you know, I would say this is probably one if not, you know, the most revered X Men movie certainly up there by a lot of fans.

This was, you know, a great team up between.

Whereas X Men set up, you know, the relationship between Xavier Magneto and the dichotomy of their views on Mutantine and whether it could be a part of humanity or not.

This one forces, you know, them together to fight a bigger threat with William Stryker and played by the great Brian Cox.

I mean another, I mean just casting was boom, boom, boom.

Like no matter how much the writing faltered throughout this franchise, casting was always solid.

And then of course we get Nightcrawler here and one of still the best opening sequences in any comic book movie with the when he's mind controlled and does the attack on the White House.

I.

That scene just still holds up all these years later.

But yeah, this is, this is one again.

I was watched all the time.

I even, you know, there were just scenes I would love to watch over and over again.

Especially when Stryker's Men attack the Xavier Institute and you get to see Wolverine go full Wolverine on them and take them out while Iceman is kind of like, oh, this is, you know, just kind of quivering there a little bit.

I love it.

But yeah, this really movie really builds on everything the first one set up and expands on it.

Even the title, X2X Men United.

It's got, you know, bringing in heroes and villains together and in a way that didn't feel forced because, I mean, you think about it, it's like at the end of the first movie, Magneto does try to sacrifice Rogue in order to build his weapon.

And.

And, you know, and as part of his plan to dominate mankind, like, I mean, he does really horrible things.

But, you know, this sets it up that, okay, the monsters of humanity end up being a bigger threat, at least right now that forces all the mutants together, regardless of their differences.

And, you know, it leads to a really climactic third act.

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack in this movie.

So the same question for you guys as the first is like, do you remember what your reactions were and where you were when you first saw X2?

Andy, we'll start with you.

Sure, yeah.

I mean, you mentioned that opening sequence, Right.

And that just.

I remember being compelled by that right from the get go.

That was still and remains a high watermark for superhero cinema in the way that it takes a power that doesn't exist in real life and finds a creative way to choreograph an action sequence around it.

And, yeah, there's probably only a handful of sequences since then in the, like I say, 57,500 comic book superhero movies that we've had since then.

So, yeah, I remember being blown away by that right from the start.

And then, yeah, this is, I would say, the one that comes the closest to feeling like an X Men team movie, which is maybe kind of ironic because it also splits them up.

Right.

Storm and Jean go on their side quest and Wolverine goes with the kids on their side quests, and Professor X and Cyclops are captured and off separately.

So they're not actually functioning as a team.

But I feel like more of the rest of the cast, outside of the main characters of Wolverine and Cyclops or Magneto and Professor X, get more time here, get more character development, get more character story arcs.

And so, yeah, it feels more like an X Men movie and not a.

It's the Wolverine show, guest starring, you know, Rogue and Storm.

So, yeah, that was exciting.

You know, thematically, you know, it's.

It's adapting more directly a storyline from the comics.

Very, you know, successful.

A very well regarded story from God Loves Man Kills.

Yes, there are changes, but you can, you can see the DNA of that story in here in a way that you can't in, in the first film.

And so that was exciting.

And yeah, I mean, this was definitely a highlight and probably remains my favorite of the X Men films that they've made so far.

I'M happy to have something supersede it going forward.

My heart is open to new X Men movie experiences, but so far this one is.

Is the tops for me.

And yeah, getting to see the kids doing more.

And Nightcrawler, not just that opening sequence, but he's a fun character.

He has a real heart, a real charm, and probably brings the most out of Storm that we get in any of these films.

The two of them interacting is probably the closest that Storm gets to having a real human connection with any of the.

Anybody in any of these films.

So fun fact too, since you mentioned God Loves Man Kills.

So when I was in college, I had a film and literature class and we did ones where we watched X2 and read God Loves Man Kills.

And yeah, it was pretty awesome.

I hope I didn't talk too much during that and let other students, but needless to say, that was.

It was not hard for me to engage there, but that was a lot of fun.

So, Christian, what about you?

Like, I. Yeah, I was about 12, 13 when this came out.

So I think in between then is when I did start reading some of the Uncanny X Men in the Claremont run that my dad had.

So I was getting a little more familiar with them.

And as someone, I don't think I've ever actually sat down and I listed them off, but I'm pretty sure Nightcrawler is my number one mutant.

Loved this film.

Seeing him included, seeing his powers get used in a really fun way, menacing way, don't get me wrong, but also a really fun way because when you actually think about what someone's capable of doing like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's definitely something they could do.

Yeah.

And then of course, all the Wolverine backstory we get here.

Yeah.

This is when it really starts.

Doesn't become.

But starts to become like Wolverine and friends and his lesser known pals as time goes on in this franchise.

But you know what?

As a kid who also really loved Wolverine, I didn't care about it too much.

Now I can look back and I can see the warning signs and go, okay, I see where three is going after this and then beyond.

But right here, now perfectly fine as an adaptation of God Loves Man Kills.

Yeah, I mean, it works enough.

I mean, obviously it's not one to one, but it does the job.

You combine that with the weapon X program and everything there and the idea of getting rid of mutants in this way that would.

Later we get to the point of the cure and why Stryker would want to cure.

We get like.

Because the sun is supposed to be mastermind.

Right?

That's the implication.

Yeah.

Jason.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is obviously a huge change, but, you know, whatever.

You can only adapt so much.

Yeah.

But, yeah, the fight sequences here, we get the plot thread of Jean becoming, you know, the Phoenix that's set up in this film.

And.

And you can argue about how it's done later on, which we will later on in this episode, but, yeah, it's great.

Yeah.

Once again, it's not a perfect film, but for what we had at this point in time is exactly what it needed to be.

And I think here, too, like, with the Wolverine connected and him playing a big role here, the ties to his origin works with the story here because Stryker is the villain.

He's connected directly.

I really think if they admit the next two, and if they had made a proper X Men origin Wolverine movie after this, that would have been so great.

And then.

Then they could have had him not be as central focus in Three and Beyond, because then they would have covered it.

But, yeah, I mean, you know, and.

But it's like, it.

It's a big part here, but there's also, like you said, the team dynamic there.

You know, it doesn't feel like.

Like characters are just introduced and, oh, they have cool powers, but they're actually given character arcs.

And, Andy, I like what you said, too, about the younger ones here.

So, you know, Iceman, Rogue, Pyro, really getting their chance to shine here, too.

And, you know, I mean, I.

And I, and I, like, it's a natural way for Pyro to go from Xavier's team to Magneto by the end.

Like, I mean, it's a.

It shows him, you know, naturally getting more unhinged and, you know, fed up with the system.

And, you know, I mean, I love the line when they try to, like, keep all three of them behind in the jet before the final battle.

He's like, I'm sick of this kids table.

Like, you know, I'm gonna.

You know, like, I'm.

I'm leaving.

And then, you know, it.

And it was natural for him to go with Magneto at the end.

So, you know, and.

And I realized, like, Iceman.

Well, yeah, it's the.

When you look at the original 5x men in the comics and Uncanny.

Yes, they change a lot here.

I mean, Iceman was one of the OGs, so was Angel.

You know, they don't bring him in until the third movie, and they make, you know, Cyclops and Jean Storm more of the OGs.

And, I mean, I'm this is one of those things with adaptations I'm less stingy on stuff like that.

You can kind of change that.

And, and I like the dynamic between Iceman and Rogue.

And Sean Ashmore was, you know, like, like.

Well, his brother was Jimmy Olsen and Smallville at this time.

So they both got two big Copa Girls at the time.

So that was pretty fun.

But yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty well balanced throughout.

And I mean Nightcrawler is just, again, not just because of his powers, but we've talked about this on episodes of Comic Book Catch up before how, you know, the themes with him being a devout Catholic and you know, in a genuine person of faith where he's not, you know, like portrayed in a lot of movies where it would be, you know, a corrupt, you know, like, and like you know, making fun of religion.

He's like, I love the scene between him and Storm when they're talking about anger and faith and, and you know, it's just a really natural thing.

It shows how compelling a character he is.

And Alan Cummings performance is fantastic.

So yeah, there's just a lot to love.

I mean, I, you know, it's not a perfect movie by any means.

Not of these are.

You know, there's still an imbalance at times and there's, you know, is plot points where the plot just kind of moves along.

I also, I mean I.

It's funny, I was reading if I had been in on Hector's blogos or maybe it was.

No, I think, oh, this was a screen crash video I was watching but talking about Xavier, like, you know, I've watched, you know, that scene at the end a million times when Xavier and the X Men confront the president by interrupting.

They, you know, they freeze time and interrupt him before he's about to make a state of the unit address.

And you know, and Xavier, you know, issues a decree saying, you know, we are watching.

And it's actually, you know, it seems like an inspiring moment where he's like, okay, he's asking the president to consider mutant kind.

But it's actually pretty creepy when you think about it.

It's like, hey, actually Mr. President, we have a bunch of powers here.

We got, you know, I have a kid who can walk through walls.

We got all of us here.

I have the mutant who tried to assassinate you right here.

So, you know, you may want to rewrite your speech here on the fly.

But I, at the same time, I do like that, that Xavier is a very morally complex character.

And in many ways the, the movies Never really explored that in full.

They kind of hint at it, but not nearly as much as in the comics.

And so.

And I.

There are elements there where I wish they had gone a little deeper, made it even more complex, but they kind of hint at those complications, those moral ambiguities.

But.

But, yeah, I mean, it's still.

You know, this is still one that holds up, I think.

I say, really, the main flaws with this movie, I think more have to do with what came after, which I'll get.

We'll get to that.

As this one as a whole, I think, is a great middle entry in a trilogy and a great entry in a franchise.

Not perfect by any means, but it does what is a good sequel should.

In that it builds on everything that the first one set up.

It, you know, continues character storylines.

It introduces new ones in interesting ways.

It has really great iconic moments, I would say.

Oh, also criticism I would have would be, you know, again, it's inevitable that there are characters that are introduced and kind of tossed aside.

But Death Strike, like, you know, I mean, she doesn't really get any.

She's just a Terminator here.

And there was more opportunity there.

You know, they're like, yeah, what they did with Jason was.

I guess it kind of worked for the movie.

It is, again, nothing like the comics at all.

But, you know, it's of adaptation, so it's, you know.

But I.

When I think about, like, the strengths and weaknesses of the movie, the strengths definitely outweigh the weaknesses by far.

And that's impressive for, you know, one that is all these years later.

But do you guys have any other thoughts on that?

Nope.

Or.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

Well, now, the way I set it up as far as, like, oh, what cool.

It could have been.

Oh, let's see.

So now we come to X Men the Last Stand.

Yeah.

So a lot to say about this one.

I'll go ahead and say I.

Well, okay.

Like, because I want to be nice first before we put.

Because there's a lot to play.

Like, I.

Well, the thing about this movie is that there are two movies crammed into it, and that's a.

That's.

Even if you go into the backstory of how this game.

That's literally the case.

Like, they.

They combine two scripts because first there was Bryan Singer left to go direct Superman, which, ironically, Brett Ratner, who directed this.

Again, I don't really like saying his name.

He also directed the new Melania movie, which.

Yeah, but.

But Ratner was also attached to Superman at one point, but Singer went to Go to direct that.

That is also why Cyclops is barely in this movie and is killed off early because James Marsden and went to go do Superman Returns, which is also all right, too, because it's not like he went and played an iconic character.

He played one they made up for the movie as Lois Lane's husband.

Yeah, this was.

That was two misfires, but yeah.

But I would say, you know, this movie, though, if they could go back.

So the.

The two movies, they crammed because they literally.

They crammed two different scripts into one and they took bits and pieces and.

And there's.

And you can see that totally, because on the one hand, you have the movie revolving around the Cure storyline, which had been in the comics and the Astonishing X Men.

So.

And I think that, like, if I could have picked one to start with.

Yes, I know they set up and they teased Dark Phoenix at the very end of two, but also they could have saved it for the next movie.

I really do think the Cure storyline is a natural progression for what was set up in the first two, because you have all of these ideologies about mutant kind and its place in the world and, you know, and whether or not a war with humanity is coming.

I think the Curious storyline is a very natural progression of that.

A fourth movie could have explored, given its own movie to Dark Phoenix, done it well done Phoenix in Space and done Aliens and all of that, that would have made so much more sense.

Because if I'm looking at just the writing, there's a lot in the Cure storyline I think is pretty interesting.

And for me, when I was rewatching this the other day, yeah, the movie started to fall apart about 20, 25 minutes in when Jean comes back and she kills Cyclops.

And it was just.

Yeah, we'll get into that.

So, I mean, yeah, it's a very messy movie, but I do want to give a shout out further along the note of great casting.

So Beast is my favorite mutant, and Kelsey Grammer was perfectly cast as Dr. Hank McCoy.

I still.

And I'm really excited to see him again in Doomsday.

I mean, I. I don't know how much will be okay, but they're bringing back both Beast and Nightcrawler, so I'm really excited for that because really, since then we've only seen him.

He has a cameo in Days of Future Past at the end, and then he has a cameo in the post credit scene of the Marvels.

But.

But always loved Grammar's Beast.

I love Nicholas hold as well, but.

But Beast is my Guy.

And so I do love his portrayal here.

They actually wanted to bring Beast in soon.

They wanted to bring Beast in the first movie, but budget constraints and, you know, there'd be a lot of effects there.

But so I want to, you know, put out the nice things here.

But, yeah, there's a lot to tear apart about this movie, so we can get into that as well.

But it.

Andy, though, what were your thoughts about this one going back to, you know, when it came out?

You know, this is a big one in the trilogy.

Do you remember what you thought back then?

Yeah, I mean, I remember, you know, so that the World Wide Web was, you know, a central part of our lives by that point.

And I had gotten into, like, following, you know, behind the scenes in Hollywood and of these movies.

And so I was aware of all the director changes and script changes and things leading up to the film in a way that I previously was not.

Movies just came out and I went and watched them, and the names on the screen were somewhat mysterious to me.

But here I was starting to get into, oh, yeah, no, I actually know about that.

Other people were supposed to make this movie and it's going to be a different movie.

So I came into it with that awareness.

And then also, you've already mentioned my fondness for Jamie Madras, multiple man, who makes his triumphant debut in this film as an unrecognizable version of the character, other than the fact that he has the same name and power.

But I think I finally come around to, well, we'll just headcanon this, that this is like the Fallen Angels version of Jamie Madrox, a wayward dupe who wanders off and gets into mischief.

And the real Jamie Madrox is somewhere else, is in Muir island, in that laboratory.

Muir island with Moira McDaggart, who we meet in this film.

So that's my completely unjustified by the text headcanon of what's going on with Multiple man in this film.

But, yeah, so it was.

So I was excited.

On the one hand, I like Beast because he's the X Men scientist.

I liked Multiple Man.

So there were things I was excited about for this film.

And, yeah, it was definitely.

I don't know that I hated as much as some people did at the time, but it was definitely not the high point.

Didn't hit the same highs as x Men 2.

You could definitely feel the gaps in the seams where they glued things together and had to adjust things at the last minute.

It was not surprising that this led to kind of a.

Well, maybe we need to rethink this, our approach here.

But yeah, it has some fun elements, but definitely feels more like a missed opportunity than anything else.

And it really, between this and Spider Man 3 and all these different things, as we're building up to Doomsday and thinking about the mcu, one of the things that was remarkable about that was there were lots of these film franchises that kind of petered out after three.

You make a good first one, you could sometimes make a really, really good second one.

And then that was all anybody was good for.

And so it was quite impressive to see the Marvel movies, the MCU movies, manage to sustain such high quality and to build for so long.

The four Avengers films, the last ones are definitely the high point of those.

So, yeah, this was definitely a time where it just felt like, well, you couldn't do more than three movies and.

And sometimes you're probably better off not having done the third one.

Even this definitely contributed to that feeling.

But yeah, and rewatching it and knowing what it was, I think I was able to kind of maybe not enjoy it, but be amused by it as it happened.

Knowing that it's not going to be what I want it to be, knowing it's not going to be the Jamie Madrox showcase that I might have dreamed of one day at one point.

But it is what it is.

It does develop things that we'd seen before.

It is kind of in some ways the logical next step for some of these characters.

And the Cure story is interesting, but something that really stood out to me watching it now that I don't think I noticed at the time was just how much of a like, oh, you just shouldn't let women be powerful element of the story.

It doesn't really seem to have a whole lot more justification for why it's okay for Magneto and Charles Xavier to have these world shaping powers, but Jean Grey, they both have to be paternalistic towards and wag their fingers at her.

Yes, she's not making all the best choices, but neither were they.

And so it's underwritten why she should be the villain and.

And they get to be the heroes in some ways of these stories that.

And they just made it so one note.

And the Dark Phoenix saga has so much nuance to it.

And there's like.

And this one, it was just like, oh no.

Crazy woman trope and rage.

And there was just.

For someone that was set up as such a vital character in the first two movies, they butchered her here and I.

And again, that's why, like, they, like, why they thought it was a good idea to try to cram in two movies here instead of just make a proper Phoenix movie, which again, they still haven't done.

They tried to do that again years later and oh, we'll get to that later.

Maybe they should just leave that storyline alone.

But.

Because the X Men cartoon did it great.

But.

But, you know, I mean, like, it just.

That's what frustrates me most about this movie.

Christian, I know you're itching to talk here too.

What can I say?

Someone else hasn't said about this film.

I don't know.

I, I was 15, 16 when this came out and I had read more of the comics, I'd experienced more of the stories.

So I'm like, wait, oh, they hinted at Phoenix coming up.

That means we're going to see the Shi'.

Ar.

We're gonna see, you know, Gladiator and all the other.

The members of the group there.

It's gonna be so great.

And I get there and space is a long forgotten thing, or definitely not doing that.

We got this whole Cure storyline and we get that really cringy scene of Storm, this really attractive woman with these really great powers looking at Rogue and saying, hey, like, how could you ever think of taking something like this, even though you can really kill anyone you touch with a literal touch?

And I'm there at 15, 16 going, did you just say that?

Did you not just think with the emotional immaturity of a 16 year old me being able to think that through?

Yeah.

And I'm not gonna be showing myself really well here because I do remember saying something to the effect of this to a friend.

You know, I.

This film franchise is done.

And unlike the Phoenix, I shall not be reborn from the ashes, you know, because I've always been, you know, just a.

Just a snob at times.

Doesn't matter how correct I can be at times.

And going, man, like, this is over.

This is kind of the definition of a whimper.

That final battle isn't really fun.

We get the Juggernaut in this film too.

I was like, yes, to see the Juggernaut.

And he's like this muscle bound guy who doesn't look anything like Caine Marco.

And of course we get the classic reference to the Internet meme.

I'm not going to say the word because it's a family show that came from a fan parody that was of its time.

And yes, I still laugh at it, but I also remember where it came from in the history of the Internet in our lives.

And to see this giant, mumbled, jumbled mess and going, who approved of this?

And being like morally upset as a 15, 16 year old, like, I gotta find a person who did this because they destroyed this film franchise.

It's awful.

And yeah, some of those thoughts haven't changed.

And you know, it's.

In hindsight, I can look back and see how Hollywood interferes with a lot of its things, how executives get in the way of things and how the best writers aren't always involved.

Like, you naively think that they're only hiring the best of the best because they want to give the best product possible instead of just like, hey, continue to consume product because you idiots came for the last one, you'll come for this one too.

I learned a lot at that time.

And Spider Man 3 was no exception either.

And I'm glad you brought up that scene between Storm and Rogue, because.

So this is why I go back to.

It would have been fascinating if they had done a proper movie that explored the Cure storyline and really got to dig into it because they, they hint at stuff here that's really interesting, but then they don't really, you know, they make it really one to note, one dimensional because they're also cramming into another.

Cramming another movie into this.

But, you know, for me, this is why the X Men have always been fascinating because, you know, as a disabled person, like, there.

And I mean, the X Men speak to really any marginalized community.

I mean, that's what they're like, they're metaphors there.

And the curious storyline is especially, you know, like, meaningful for me as a disabled person because those same arguments are there in the disability community when they talk about cures and treatments.

And, you know, there are a lot of disabled people who I like, I understand the mentality of, you know, like, oh, I don't want to be fixed, I don't need it.

And, and I'm in this mode too, of like, I don't, you know, I'm not, you know, waking up every day like, oh, I wish I could walk.

I'm like, I've been in a wheelchair my whole life.

It's.

It's very normal for me.

So, like, but then there are.

But I have friends who, who, you know, they Got disabled, you know, later in life, received a diagnosis.

And so it, you know, had a really profound impact on them.

And they are more desperate for, you know, the kind of return to their old life.

And because of that, that makes, you know, Keira's storyline this very relevant, very interesting.

And if they had done it properly and done a very nuanced character, but.

But instead, like you said, they have scenes like that where it's just like dismissing.

And you 100% understand why rogue would be interested in this because her powers in this universe literally kill other people and, and she wants normalcy.

Whereas, you know, someone like Storm, she has really awesome powers that can do, you know, do cool stuff.

So, like, you know, but if they had explored that more instead of, oh, we just got to keep moving the plot along, we have to cram in Phoenix, we have to do all this stuff.

And it made the writing really atrocious.

And also, it doesn't help too that we talked so much about X2 being great visually and still holding up all these years later.

The CG is pretty horrendous in this movie.

There are some awful looking sequences right from the beginning when Xavier and Magneto go.

The flashback scene where they visit it.

Well, it's not as bad there, but.

But still, the de aging wasn't, you know, great back then, but.

But especially the Xavier death scene is for something that's supposed to be really, you know, tragic and, and, you know, have an impact.

It's just done horribly.

Like, it's like.

It just like it looks like a computer falling apart, not, you know, a person dying.

It's just.

I just slop all over the other thing.

Sorry, I forgot something.

Cyclops is death.

Yes.

If you're watching this on YouTube, I have.

Cyclops deserved better.

This is when we really get Wolverine and friends.

If your neighbors and Wolverine.

Oh, too bad, buddy.

Even though you're the leader of the X Men, you're boring because we haven't given you a character, therefore you can die.

And yeah, like you said, there were things with the actor having other projects to do at the time, but.

But still, this is how we let Scott Summers die.

Yeah.

No, I didn't have any trouble recasting every other character.

Seriously.

Right?

No, it's still one of the most egregious mistakes this franchise has made.

And they still haven't really gotten Cyclops.

Right.

Just from that image from the doomsday one of the teaser, the X Men teaser there.

And you get to see James Marsden in the classic suit.

I'm like, that alone gives me hope, and I. I hope they.

You know, And I mean, granted, I don't expect, like, a ton.

Like, it's hard for me to see a lot of character development or when they have, like, a million people in the cast for that movie.

But we'll get to that, you know, throughout this series.

But.

But, yeah, no, it's.

It's absolutely.

That's why I said, you know, when I was re.

Watching this, I'm like, all right, the first 20 minutes, I could kind of get, you know, like, okay there, because it's.

Again, it's focused on the Curious storyline.

Aside from that opening scene.

It's like, okay, we're moving along.

Like, this makes sense.

And.

And anyways, I do really love the Danger Room scene.

I'll give them that.

That was cool.

We really didn't get much of the Danger Room at all in this trilogy.

That was, like, really the one scene where we got that and we got a sentinel.

So that was cool.

But it's moving along.

Not even a real one, right?

Not a real one, but, like.

But it was kind of a fun tease.

But then, yeah, after about 20 minutes, and then they do the Cyclops death.

Movie falls apart after that, you know, and, I mean, there's still watchable elements.

Again, anytime Beast is on screen.

I was happy.

There was other stuff, but.

Yeah, and, you know, and, oh, and Christian, you talked earlier about the Senator Kelly blob scene scarring you as a kid.

The one that horrified me when I saw her.

When I saw this in theaters, as, you know, in middle school.

I mean, I get why it was like, turn it.

But when the kid.

Angel.

Angel's a kid, tried to cut off his wings at the guy.

Like.

Like, that was terrifying.

And then it cuts to the title sequence.

I'm like, that was terrifying.

And it was.

It was just really grotesque.

I mean, I get that that was the intention, but still, that.

That.

That scarred me as a kid.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there's.

But that's another thing.

Angel is brought in here, and I mean, waste.

Very wasted, because there were.

That.

There's another element that was set up as an interesting art.

It's like, okay, he was, you know, terrified of being a mutant and, you know, and.

But he.

And he wants to have a relationship with his father, but his father is heading up the.

The cure facility and the whole project and funding it.

There was an opportunity there to explore that relationship.

And instead they give the dude a few lines and, you know, they have him do a couple flying sequences.

There was a.

There was a lot of.

There.

Were you watching this?

There are a lot of interesting elements, Elements here, but none of them really play out in a meaningful way.

It all just, you know, comes crashing down because they tried to cram so much and there was all the, you know, conflicting visions here.

There were, you know, got.

If they had given this one the time and written it properly and done again, I think if they had done the curious storyline here, Wolverine could have taken a side step and then maybe bring him back in the Phoenix movie.

And I think that would have been.

Been really good, you know, but there's.

Instead, you know, they try to do Xavier's death, Dark Phoenix, the Cure storyline, bring in Beast, bring in Angel.

It's just boom, boom, boom.

Everything that really worked about X2 just really.

It's the opposite here.

Yeah, no argument for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's, you know, it's a shame.

And, you know, like.

And this very much, I think, did lead to a massive reboot, which, you know, we'll get into in another episode.

And I. I am excited for that because they're.

That Todd now talking about another one where I.

At least a teaser for me is started off really good.

And then the latter half.

Oof.

Yeah, we'll get there.

But.

But yeah, so Last Stand.

I mean, yeah, it's a mess.

It does have its moments, and, you know, there's a lot they could have done, but ultimately, I think it's plagued by not just bad writing, but cramming two scripts into one and trying to make some coherent thing out of it.

And then a poor director, poor cg.

All of that, you know, you get some cool.

Like, I mean, the.

The cast still gives it their all again.

And not just like.

I know it's like, I love Kelsey Grammer's Beast, but yeah, like, I think Elliot Page is.

Kitty works well still, you know, there's still some great movements from Wolverine and Rogue.

You know, of course Magneto there.

You know, there's still elements.

Oh, and then another.

Another line equal to the toad line in the first movie that I just cringe so much every time I hear it.

I mean, it's Xavier saying it, so it's that.

But when he says to Storm, well, you of all people know how fast, fast the weather changes.

Like, yeah.

Oh.

Oof.

Like, there's a difference between fun, cheesy meta stuff and then that.

But yeah, So I don't know.

Andy, do you have any other thoughts here?

Yeah, I mean, you touched on the.

The Cure and the the relationship to disability conversations, whatever.

You know, it especially struck me, you know, all the conversation about autism at the moment.

Yes.

You know, and so, yeah, the Storm Rogue conversation was quite tone deaf.

And then also shocking was I'd forgotten that, you know, the X Men use the Cure weapons against Magneto.

That's.

Yep.

I know.

That's a pretty ethical implication to that one.

Yeah.

That is unconsidered.

You know, you can see where it's convenient, narratively, to kind of wrap up some things in the finale.

But, yeah, it is ethically dubious.

It is somewhat out of character for everyone.

When Magneto says, right before the final battle, like, traitors to their own kind, I'm like, I can't disagree with you there when that happens.

You know, I mean, yeah, I've never

really been a big.

Magneto was Right guy, but, you know, watching these movies, maybe just the Ian McKellen gravitas, but these movies give a lot of opportunities for you to go, well, maybe Magneto has a point.

Yeah, that's.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was the.

Oh, no.

I mean, I hate that moment.

Like, it's.

Yeah.

Like, I. I get, like, in terms of the battle, Okay, I get why the X Men are.

They're protecting.

Because they're protecting the kid there more than anything.

Like, because Magneto and his army are going to go and kill the kid.

Like, obviously, the X Men will stand for, you know, regardless of.

Even though they're against, you know, the military having the cure as a weapon.

But why they would use it.

Oh, I hate it.

Yeah.

I mean, because, I mean, you've got beast in my ear.

Like, they could still have stopped him there without, quote, unquote, curing him.

And then, of course, you know, it didn't even work because by the end of the movie, you know, they.

They have the final shot of Magneto moving the chess piece and, you know, that's it.

We'll see him again in Days of Future Past.

So that it all ended up being for nothing anyway.

But, yeah, so it's.

Oh, Last Stand.

Yeah, it's Last Stand.

But all that said.

Well, first, guys, this has been so much fun.

I'm really excited for this series, and this will be a blast going through all these movies.

But.

But, yeah, if you had to rank them, where would you put the.

Just for these three movies?

213.

Simple enough.

Yeah, same.

Yeah.

It's not.

No.

No question.

Yeah.

This might be the first time we're all in it.

Like, I think.

How often do we have a ranking that is universal?

Like, this could create world peace right here.

That's all we have.

Everyone ranked the X Men, the first X Men trilogy, and I dare anyone to have different opinions on there.

And that's why Joshua isn't on this episode, because I'm sure it'd be the exact wrong one.

He'd be like, well, guys, Last Stand is actually.

That would be.

Yeah.

Like, yeah.

But, yeah.

Well, now, this was, you know, a ton of fun.

And then.

Oh.

So just a couple closing questions here I have is if the franchise hadn't been rebooted several years later, what would you have wanted from a fourth X Men movie with this cast?

I know I kind of already said, I wish they had just split the.

The two movies here up into two and done Cure first and then Dark Phoenix.

That would have been my preference, but.

But if they hadn't done that, I don't know.

Like, I'm trying to think, what.

Do you guys have any idea for with this cast, what a fourth might look like to kind of redeem this one?

I mean, my idea would have been if I could have changed the third movie, it would have been Hellfire Club, Shi', Ar, Dark Phoenix.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then four would have been Mr. Sinister, leading up to a fifth movie with Apocalypse.

I like it.

Yeah.

I was thinking, you know, I mentioned my headcanon about Jamie Madrox in Muir island, and that's where the final scene goes, right?

The credit tease.

And so, yeah, I think you need to follow up that.

Moira McTaggart, who has her own regrets about the past, discovers that you can transfer a consciousness from one mind to or from one body to another, and so starts to wonder if there's a way to send a mind back in time to fix some of the mistakes that she's made in her own past with her own son, Proteus.

So I think there's something there where you could do kind of like a Days of future past, but a different spin on it in that instead of going from the future to the present, you're going from the present into the past.

You can maybe kind of mash it up with an Age of Apocalypse kind of thing.

So maybe she sends somebody back in time.

Maybe Bishop.

Bring in Bishop as a time traveler.

She finds some way to send Bishop back in time to change something in the past about Proteus, and that changes the timeline, and we get some kind of alternate Present Age of Apocalypse style.

Maybe it doesn't involve Apocalypse because you haven't set him up yet, but some kind of.

Maybe it's more of a days of future past, alternate present, where mutants are in camps or something like that, since they've built up a lot of those kinds of themes in the previous films.

But, yeah, I don't have a full treatment yet, but I think something, something along those lines is where, where it seemed to me it should go.

Next build.

You know, if you're going to use what you've, what you've got already, I

like that a lot.

Awesome.

And also just a fun question.

I'm curious.

If you guys were mutants, what powers would you want to have?

I think for me, I'd want Nightcrawlers because it would make travel so much easier.

I mean, if I could just, you know, you know, you know, I always say sales on tape, but if I could just get from one place to another like that, it would be great.

My answer to this is always going to be telekinesis, because depending on how you define it, it could be used in ways that go beyond what you'd expect.

I mean, you could essentially become the avatar and bend all the elements.

You could potentially create black holes and time travel.

It's kind of very multifaceted.

If I only just get telekinesis and I can bring my drink closer to me all the time, I'm fine with that too.

That would be awesome.

I love it.

Andy, are you going to be multiple man or something different?

You know, I, I, I do like that idea, but I also very much like the idea of just being able to fly.

I, I think I want to fly.

Okay.

Can't go wrong there.

I love it.

It's classic for a reason.

Exactly.

Awesome.

Well, guys, this has been great and just wrapping up here.

Well, first of all, for listeners out there, thank you so much for joining tonight.

I also want to give a shout out to one of our supporters, Ethan Overcash.

Thank you so much.

But before we go, do you guys have any recommendations you want to share either related to X Men or it could be something totally different for me.

The Space Ghost comics, right now, they're being released.

Fantastic.

They incorporated plenty of good things from the 60s episodes and 80s episodes.

That was comics run that happened way back then.

Really, really fun.

Awesome.

Andy, what about you?

Yeah.

Thinking a lot about Nightcrawler in this episode, in the standout sequence in x2.

And so one of the best Nightcrawler moments for me recently was in the Axe crossover that Kieran Gillan kind of architected for Marvel Comics.

So Avengers X Men and Eternals.

It is probably impenetrable nonsense if you're not up on the X Men Krakoa era and the Eternals and a whole bunch of other continuity at the time.

But there are some really great Nightcrawler moments in that as well.

So it's an interesting story that deals with some of these same big themes of what do you do with absolute power and who gets to make these important decisions and those kinds of.

Those kinds of questions.

So there's some somatic resonance there as well.

But yeah, hopefully, even if you're coming into it cold, you'll get something, something good out of it.

Very cool.

And then for me, so I know everyone talks about the 90s x men animated series, which is great, but if you've never seen X Men Evolution, highly recommend.

That's another one.

I grew up on it.

And that one, in some ways I like it even more.

You know, it puts the.

The, the main mutants in high school, like Wolverine and Storm, are adults, but Cyclops, Gene, Nightcrawler, all of them are teenagers.

And, you know, it came.

It.

It has mirrors to the movies, but it's still its own story.

The animation still holds up.

I.

That's a really fun one, especially if you like Young justice, stuff like that.

There's a lot of comparisons there.

So check that out on Disney plus if you've never seen it, but awesome, guys.

Well, yes.

As we prep for Doomsday, we will be doing more, many more of these episodes.

I haven't decided which if we'll for the next one, if we're gonna start with MCU or do the next set of X Men films.

We'll talk and figure that out.

But we've got plenty to discuss throughout the year.

So thank you all for joining us tonight.

This is Andy Christian.

This has been a blast.

And for listeners, viewers out there, remember, we are all a chosen people.

A geek kingdom of priests.