Andy Walsh and Evan Garcia dive deep into the mind-bending world of "12 Monkeys," exploring the intricate themes of time travel and causality in this classic flick. Right out of the gate, they tackle the core idea that the future is a wild card, and sometimes we’re just along for the ride, caught in loops of our own making. It’s not just about the science fiction elements; they get into the psychological toll of time travel on Bruce Willis's character as he grapples with the weight of his mission. Evan, who’s watching the film for the first time, shares his fresh takes and how it felt like a foreign film, while Andy chimes in with insights about its complex narrative structure and its connections to their larger theme of “Faces Behind Us.”

With a mix of witty banter and thoughtful analysis, they unravel the layers of this film and ponder whether our choices really shape the future or if we’re merely puppets in a grand design. Andy and Evan take listeners on a wild ride through the twisted timeline of '12 Monkeys', a film that blends dystopian themes with psychological depth. Their conversation is both casual and insightful, filled with witty remarks and a relaxed tone that invites listeners to join in on the fun. From personal anecdotes about their first encounters with the film to an in-depth analysis of its narrative structure, the duo covers a lot of ground. Evan, having only just seen the film for the first time, shares his surprise at how its themes resonate with today's world, especially regarding the ongoing conversations about pandemics and mental health. His initial thoughts are refreshing, as he notes the film's foreign film vibes and the way Gilliam crafts a story that feels both timeless and timely.

As they dissect the film's plot, Andy and Evan explore how it reflects on the human psyche, particularly the implications of time travel on mental health. They delve into the protagonist's struggles, discussing how the narrative intertwines his personal journey with larger societal issues. The concept of 'Faces Behind Us' serves as a thematic backbone in their analysis, as they consider how the main character's identity is shaped by his past and the choices he makes—or fails to make—along the way. Their light-hearted banter makes complex themes accessible, inviting listeners to think critically about the film's messages while also enjoying the ride. The conversation takes a fascinating turn as they contemplate the ethical dimensions of the film, particularly regarding the experiments conducted on marginalized individuals. Andy raises important questions about the morality of using prisoners for time travel experiments, prompting a deeper discussion about the societal implications of such actions.

Their exploration culminates in a thought-provoking analysis of the film's ending, where they grapple with themes of fate and free will. Evan expresses his confusion about the film's message, while Andy suggests that it leans toward a more hopeful interpretation of the future. Their engaging dialogue leaves listeners eager to reflect on the film long after the episode ends, making this a standout addition to the Spring bonus series.

Takeaways:

1. In discussing 12 Monkeys, Andy and Evan dive into the themes of time travel and the complex nature of causality, showing how actions in the past can influence the future in unexpected ways.
2. Evan shares that watching 12 Monkeys for the first time felt like experiencing a foreign film, highlighting the unique storytelling style of Terry Gilliam that often leaves viewers questioning reality.
3. The podcast emphasizes the mental health aspect of the film, illustrating how the pressures of time travel and saving the world can affect one's psyche and perception of reality.
4. Andy and Evan explore the ethical dilemmas presented in 12 Monkeys, particularly the moral implications of experimenting on marginalized groups in the name of science and societal betterment.
5. The conversation reveals how the film reflects contemporary concerns about pandemics and societal collapse, drawing parallels to modern issues that resonate with viewers today.
6. In the end, they ponder whether the film suggests that the future is predetermined or if we can indeed change our paths, sparking a deeper discussion about choice and destiny.

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Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.

I want the future to be unknown. I want to become a whole person. Welcome systematic ecologists to an episode in our bonus series for the spring.

We are talking about loop movies, time loops, where causality runs backwards to how time normally works. And I am joined by Evan. How are you doing, Evan?

Doing well, doing well. Hopefully I'm not in a time loop,

but we hope not. I'm Andy Walsh and yeah, we are excited to be talking about the movie 12 Monkeys today as part of this On Loop series.

We do these bonus series now five times a year, come at you every Friday for a six weeks period in January, the spring, summer, Halloween and Christmas.

And for this spring series, we're trying to connect to our annual theme, the Faces Behind Us, by talking about movies where the main character or one of, one of the main characters is themselves a face behind themselves.

Through the magic of time travel, they go back in time and have some influence on their own past that leads to the events that they already know happen in the future, whether they are aware of, you know, infecting their past or not. So we've got movies like Interstellar, we've got things like Darkwing Duck, and Today we are talking about 12 monkeys.

And you can check out the show notes or the description for all of the other episodes in this series. There'll be a playlist there that you can click on and get all those other episodes that I talked about from the past and, or the future.

So, yeah, so that's what we're up to today. And Evan, why don't you say a little bit about 12 monkeys? What's your, what, what are your first memories of it? What's your kind of first reaction?

We just finished watching the movie. And what were what, your first reactions to the, to the film?

Sure, sure. So, so I, I was about probably 10 years old when this movie came out and I was aware of it, but I never saw it because of, because of my age.

I guess my dad didn't want to take me, but, but, but the name and the poster always intrigued me. So, so I never saw it until now.

And, and, and I'm excited I saw it because it was, it was well worth the hype and it's very much a product of his time, but still, it had some everlasting tendencies to it.

So I thought, okay, so you watched it for this podcast and that was your first time seeing it.

Correct, correct.

What's one thing that stood out to you above everything else from your first watch there?

That it felt like a foreign film. It felt Like I was watching a dub version of something and I thought that was unique take from Terry Gilliam, I guess.

Yeah. That's interesting. Are you familiar with the. The origins of the movie?

I am not. I do not know the lore. I just. No. No.

Okay. So it is inspired by a French language short film called La Chate.

Oh, wow.

That. That Terry Gillum saw and wanted to, you know, was inspired by. To make this film. I. I watched that.

That short film for the first time in preparation for this podcast.

Okay.

It is also about time travel and a time loop where a man sees, you know, winds up in a situation where he sees himself as a. As a child and realizes that he is playing out the events of a memory that he had from.

From his boyhood of being at the airport and seeing this man running around and ultimately, you know, being. Being killed at the airport. And so it turns out that he, through time travel was. That was that man that he had seen killed. And there are.

There's also the element of, you know, he's traveling in time because scientists have sent him back in time to figure out how to resolve a. A crisis in the world that, that they would like to either undo or. Or help people get out of.

And so people are living underground and they're trying to restore, rebuild society from a sort of post apocalypse situation. So those are the elements that carry over. And yeah, it's an interesting film. It's shot entirely in still. Still photos. So it's just.

It's more of a montage or a slideshow of still images with French language narration over it, describing the plot and providing some dialogue. And. Yeah, so that was. So it's interesting that that was your takeaway from.

Because in some ways it is kind of a foreign film or at least has stronger foreign film vibes and pedigree than your typical.

Yeah, it felt like that everything was hover dubbed. Like the footsteps were very loud and super high and the lips didn't quite match some of the dialogue, I thought, and stuff like that. So.

But that's cool to see and hear that the. The original source and. Well, he was. He was very successful, I guess, and capturing that. That part of it, because it worked for me.

Cool. Yeah. So that. So I guess by way of that, I kind of gave a rundown of. Of La Jete, which. And the elements that overlap with 12 monkeys.

But why don't you say a little bit more about the story of 12 Monkeys for so.

Yeah, so it has that. It has that premise and that plot and, and it Plays tricks with us. And in that he kind of adds the mental health aspect to it. The.

The portions of like, how does. How does time travel and the obsession with. With. With a certain goal that's going to save the world.

How, like, how does that affect your psyche and stuff like that.

So does explore that in a mysterious way where it builds up to the airport scene in a different scenes and it reveals itself through a different characters until you get to the plot at the end. To the end where. Where things are kind of as. As they were to explain, but. But not really.

So yeah, it's. It's a very twisty tale that is always playing with your understanding of what is real and what isn't and why people are doing what they're doing.

Yeah. The time loop elements are a little bit different than some of these other stories that we've talked about, certainly compared to Interstellar.

By the end of Interstellar, he's reaching back in time knowingly trying to influence events in the past. Whereas Bruce Willis future. Bruce Willis is influencing his own future and his own past in complicated ways, but rarely intentionally.

He isn't trying to get to that airport situation. His future self is not trying to guide his past self to any particular. To recreate those events or to reach this fixed point.

But it's more through happenstance that it comes to that situation. Yeah.

And as you know, as I'm thinking about all the other movies in the series and other stories in the series remind you that you can go on Facebook and vote. That is how we decide what's going to be included in these special series.

So keep an eye out on the Facebook group, the Systematic Ecology Facebook group for that. And you can also be part of the conversation on the Discord server as well. There's suggestions and voting that goes on there as well.

So be sure to check those out if you want to be included in what we talk about in the future. If you are excited about 12 Monkeys, great.

If you would rather never hear about 12 Monkeys, then you can have a say in what a future episode or future series might be all about. But yeah, so, you know, I thought it was an interesting way that it. That it kind of fulfilled the. That faces behind us element of it that he's.

He's not trying to live up to anything in particular, but he still winds up creating the circumstances that lead to his own, you know, his own destiny or, you know, the path that his.

Right.

That his story takes. And we should say that there is a, you know, so. So the scientists in the future are trying to send Bruce Willis and other characters back in time.

The Bruce Willis and those other characters are all kind of prisoners. There's that element of experimenting on prisoners and other sort of marginalized groups. Right.

That we know is not a great thing, is not an ethical thing, but is a temptation that many have succumbed to. And these future folks have succumbed to it as well. They're experimenting on prisoners whose crimes are never really particularly enumerated.

That's true.

And perhaps that's kind of the point that it's not there. There is no. There is no crime for which, you know, this could be. Which would justify this.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah. So the, the.

They're sent back in time to try to either prevent or I think more, more to the point to try to find a cure for a pandemic that has wiped out most of the human population. A topic that, you know, is not at all relevant or current to the contemporary time.

Yeah, I cannot relate to it at all.

Yeah, so, yeah. So the 5 billion people die in 96, 97, just shortly after the film came out. In 95, they set the apocalypse.

And so the few hundred thousand people, maybe tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people who survive are living underground because the air above ground is not considered safe to breathe because this virus is still circulating. And so they're trying to find.

They're hoping that if they go back to the source that they can find some way to cure or otherwise inoculate themselves against this virus so that they can return to living on the surface. And that's what the time travel is all about. And so here's a question for you.

There are hints along the way that Bruce Willis's own path through the movie is triggered by. By his own inadvertently by, by things that he sends information that he sends back into the past and into the future. Do you think that the whole.

Is your reading of the film, that the entire pandemic situation is the result of these time travel explorations or not on the surface?

I don't, I don't think so. I kind of took it at the face value from what they said and, and I see it. Reaction to it, but I also see that that could be it.

And, and that's a part of, that's a part of the fun in the ending where you have some certain players interacting with each other. But, but yeah, that, that's one of the big questions.

And as it sets up, because, because, because brute witness kind of like you said, inadvertently sets up other things. So why not the whole, that whole pandemic.

So, yeah, yeah, I'm not sure.

I wouldn't say that it's necessarily Bruce Willis's actions alone, but, you know, we ultimately find out that the virus is released by a single individual who seems to be part, you know, obsessed with sort of, you know, doomsday, the apocalypse. Whether he's part of a cult or whether he's a lone figure, he's certainly acting alone as far as we can see in the film.

But part of his interest stems from a book that one of the other main characters played by Madeleine Stowe writes. She interacts with Bruce Willis. Bruce Willis makes several jumps back in time to different periods of time.

And after her first interaction with him, she's a. She's a psychologist and she evaluates him because of course, he's talking about coming from the future. And so.

And they, they refer him to her because he was exhibiting signs of having mental health struggles. And she doesn't believe that he's a time traveler, but becomes interested in.

In the psychology of doomsday prophecies and researches all these different doomsday prophets and scenarios from the past, from medieval France, I think, or somewhere in Europe, Western Europe, different things in the US at different times, and writes a whole book about it.

And one of the fun hints is that the various people that she winds up researching are all of these time travelers from, you know, from the future who showed up at various different times because they, they point out that the. The time they. They're still figuring out the time travel, so they wind up in the wrong place and the wrong time regularly.

And so, you know, these various agents have shown up in.

In various points in the past for, for brief periods of time and become, you know, prophets of doom because they're all warning about that they're all trying to prevent this disease outbreak. And so, yeah, and we see the man who eventually winds up spreading the virus at a book signing and interested in this book.

So it kind of raises the question of whether all of these efforts that inadvertently went through all through hundreds of years of history, if they all resulted or. Right, gave this guy the idea for an outbreak of disease.

I didn't quite really pick up on that one, her being the psychiatrist. I remember that there were some.

I felt like there were some clues I wasn't picking up on, like some of the lines that she was saying and some of the, the blocking of the scene. And I was like, there are clues here and I'm. I'm not really picking them up. So that seems like that could have been it. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I had the benefit. This is fourth or fifth time watching the film. I saw you in college shortly after it first came out.

This was for me the Brad Pitt film that kind of turned me on to, you know, questioning consumerism and things like that. I think for many people it's Fight club.

Right.

This is for me, you know, the, the sci fi vibes, the Terry Gilliam of it all. This was. This is the film for me that went, oh, interesting. You know, he's.

He's not right about everything that he's saying, but he's not entirely wrong either.

Yeah.

And, you know, it was interesting coming back to it now. You know, I did rewatch it for. Make sure it was fresh in my mind for this podcast and it was interesting hearing some of the things that he's saying.

So Brad Pitt plays this character that Bruce Willis comes across in an institution, and Brad Pitt.

You're not really sure what Brad Pitt's diagnosis is or if he is really mentally ill or if he is just inconvenient because of his sort of radical ideas about society and so forth.

He certainly presents himself that way as someone who is being persecuted for his radical ideas about the establishment rather than having a mental illness.

And yeah, it was interesting to hear some of the things insane going, well, I haven't said exactly that, but like, in the past few years I have thought things that are maybe sympathetic to some of the things that he's saying. And. Yeah, how does that. Oh, yeah, yeah, these are.

I'm sure this was not the first story with those ideas and certainly not the last story with characters who say things like that.

But, you know, I think Terry Gillum is, you know, Brazil is another film that comes to mind where, you know, about characters who are struggling against, you know, the, the system of society, the, the bureaucracy, the. The layers of. Of the system that just sort of were there to. To keep you from doing what you really want to do, what you were born to do and so forth.

So I think that's an idea that, that resonates strongly with him. I think he sees himself as a voice of the counterculture, a voice of contrarian, but. But certainly a voice of the, the minority and that.

And that kind of became a voice of a generation, almost a part of that. That was a part of that culture, you know, and a fight club and I would say probably. Probably wanted stuff like that. Did. I did that.

And Brad Pitt didn't help with making it cool. So he, he kind of validated it because he, he did do a great job capturing that, that, that, that stereotypical, like that kind of manicness of his.

His thoughts and like you said, his oppression of the system and stuff.

Yeah, he was, you know, he was very good at the time at coming across, giving off that energy of disaffected youth. You know, somebody who doesn't. Doesn't quite fit in. Yeah,

a billionaire, stuff like that.

Right. Yeah. So he, he turns out to be the. The son of, you know, a very rich virologist, which is an odd combination you don't see very often.

How did that happen?

Yeah, perhaps there was. There was family money and that's how he chose to use it, but.

Yeah, so he's the son of this virologist whose lab turns out to be the source of the virus.

And there's a thought that Brad Pitt might be the reason for the outbreak, but he turns out to just be an animal activist who wants to release animals, but not viruses.

So was that just like. I wanted to make sure that I was reading that. Right. So that was like a flat plot line, right, like that, that.

That it was more about just freeing some animals than to free the. The virus.

Yeah. Right. So. So Bruce Willis and the scientists and everybody from the future thinks that.

That Brad Pitt and his, Brad Pitt's character and his organization, the army of the 12 Monkeys, which is where the title comes from, they think they're the ones responsible for this outbreak, but it just happens that they are also active at the same time. They are more. And they are, you know, spray paint, graffiti and protesting publicly. And so they're a very visible organization.

They're an animal rights organization, among other things, possibly. And so, yeah, so he sets out to release.

And you think he's going, you know, it seems like he's going to go to his father's lab and release the lab animals that his father's working, using him as part of his research, and that that's how the virus is going to get out. And they, they go so far as kidnapping his dad to. As part of whatever they're up to. But then it turns out what.

What they actually were doing is releasing animals from the zoo.

And so all the zoo animals are running around and meanwhile that, you know, one of the lab technicians or postdocs or it's unclear what is, you know, what his job is. But David Morris's character is the one who actually takes viral samples from the lab and intentionally releases those in a side activity.

But everything that.

It's also suggested that perhaps Brad Pitt interactions with Bruce Willis's character in that institution are what inspire him to come up with this release the animals from the zoo plot. Right. So there's all these, these threads of, you know, the, the attempts to. To change the past wind up just creating the. The past as they know it.

Some, some real early use of CG animals I noticed which, which, which kind of worked but. But it was very dated, so. But I thought that was pretty cool.

Yeah, yeah, definitely a very interesting. Cary Villam has always had an interesting visual eye and interest in creating high tech out of low tech things.

There's just that aesthetic of let's kind of kit bash a bunch of.

The kit bash is perfect.

It's not all clean lines and, you know, shiny surfaces and things like that. It's grungy and complicated and weird.

Yeah, it's a punk rock almost.

Yeah. You know, there's maybe even a steam.

You know, it's not quite steampunk in the sense that it's not like retro future technology, but it is, it does have kind of similar vibes. It's sort of built out of found found elements as opposed to a lot

of, A lot of like clear plastics on top of other plastics.

Yeah, yeah, those layers of things. Yeah. You know, that's also probably part of the, you know, run out of the low budget aspect.

You know, I think he's aiming for a lower, lower cost to be able to make these sort of more avant garde ish films.

So, you know, thinking about these, these time movies and you know, this, this one is really heavily layered in terms of how many different actions of people from the future wind up impacting the past. Do you think that this is a movie? Do you think these stories are about the future?

That they're trying to say that our lives are faded and we're kind of stuck on. On rails that we can't do anything about? Or do you think that these are story.

This is a story about how you can't trying to change the past or worrying about changing the past is futile and so you need to focus on the future that you can, you can change.

I don't know. I think it's. I think it's a. I think it. From the ending that I took from it, it's it's more of a, it's more of a. The future is open in the sense of.

You don't have to obsess about it. And there are. Yeah. And, and, and, and that might be just the way I've been seeing my worldview as of late.

But, but the, the whole, the whole aspect of the mental health part of it and how it affect how the pressure of the changing the future affected him, I think says that they, I think. I'm sorry that it says that it. To kind of not think of it in a sense of the finality, but to think of the future as more open and to not.

I care so much about it and I just go to the Key West.

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, I know.

I, I, it kind of this series in general has, and this film in particular kind of highlighted for me the, the tension in that I, I really love these kinds of, you know, intricately plotted stories where everything that they think they're doing to, to change the past is actually creating the past of the new. You know, movies like Time Crimes and Primer also fit into that category.

Right.

You know, and, you know, and Interstellar and all the other movies that we're talking about in the series. You know, I really admire those, those kinds of stories for just like how, how much craft has to go into constructing a plot like that.

And yet at the same time, I don't really think, you know, my worldview, it does tend much more towards an open future that there are real choices that we can make that, that we're not just living on rails. Possibly, you know, maybe that's because to the best of our knowledge, time travel is impossible.

So you don't have these kinds of retro causality situations. But yeah, I, I found it interesting.

That we know of.

Well, yes, exactly. That we know of.

So yeah, I thought that was an interesting tension and it, and so it made me think about the, maybe pay attention to the ending of the movie.

What was your reading of the final scene on the airplane where one of the women that we've seen as this panel of scientists from the future sits down on the plane next to David Morse, who we know now is taking an international jaunt around the world, a global itinerary, to see this virus in a number of different cities?

Because we've heard that that's where the first outbreaks happened and we've heard them rattle off his list of, of where he has plane tickets to and they're all the same cities. So, you know, it's very strongly suggested that that's what he's up to.

And she sits down on the plane next to him and says that she's in the insurance business. What, what did, what was your take on that?

I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure, to be honest.

That, that part about I'm in the insurance business, does that mean she, she, she, she found out what he was doing and then aligned with it and then, and then set up the whole virus? Or, or did she. Because she's the one that was sending him back? I don't know. I honestly, I did not know how to think about that ending. So.

Yeah, and one of the great things about this film is for so long, almost everything has a double reading, right?

You think, you know, that Bruce Willis really is a time traveler, but there's so many things that suggest, well, maybe he's not and maybe he has a delusion about being a time traveler and he's just constructing elements of that delusion from things that he's seeing around him.

True.

And, you know, so over the course of the film, he becomes convinced that he, you know, that he is delusional and his psychologist becomes convinced that he is a real time traveler. And so, you know, the. More. Yeah, it kind of flips. And so there's always, you know, there's always that tension of what, what is.

What is actually real? What, you know, what should we believe, who should we believe?

And, you know, so it feels like right up until that end scene, I think there's, there's two ways to look at that. One is that this woman who's.

Who we thought was an astrophysicist all this time really isn't a scientist and doesn't, doesn't know what she's doing and says a lot, you know, maybe, and maybe is part of Bruce Willis's delusion, right? He's somebody that she saw, that he saw at this airport and added her into this delusion that he's been having. Or what?

And where I prefer to kind of to lean in the reading is that actually there is a possibility of changing the future and that she, she sees herself as. She's interesting self, as in the insurance business, because she's the insurance policy to stop this guy from continuing his mission, right?

They had. Because they, they were. Bruce Willis winds up getting shot because he's trying to shoot David Morris, right?

On the, on the directive of, of these folks in the future that, you know, to stop the, the virus from spreading. And so, but he, you know, he fails in that.

And so she come back as the insurance policy to prevent that, or at least to get a sample, to be able to take a sample back to the future to develop a vaccine or cures or antiviral, something like that. But yeah, I think I lean towards just for pure choice.

The more optimistic reading that there is some intervention going on there and that it's not just one more element of a delusion on Bruce Willis's part, but it was an interesting, interesting thing. Well, kind of reached the end of our time. There's a lot in this movie, so there's a lot more that could be said.

But we'll leave that to folks to hash out maybe in the comments or on the discord or somewhere like that. But yeah, if you have thoughts on 12 Monkeys, please feel free to reach out and share them with us.

In the meantime, you can also rate and review this show. We appreciate everybody who does that so that more folks can hear what we're talking about.

And again, you can check out the the notes for anything else that might be of interest in this series, this on loop series, these time travel stories, if you like that kind of thing. There's more of it. But we're going to wrap up with one last question for you, Evan.

If you are stuck in a time loop of the Groundhog Day variety where you have to watch a movie on repeat with one other person from your. From your world, who. Who are you watching with and what are you watching?

And I probably watch it with my dad and see what kind of crazy concoction plot that he comes up with.

Awesome. That sounds fun. I thought about this.

So obviously my wife is the person that kind of by choice, if I was going to get stuck in a time loop, that's who I want to spend time with. But that's kind of the obvious answer. So I was trying to think a little bit more outside of the box.

And I think for this kind of scenario right now my daughter's kind of the age, she's a first year in college. She's got a lot of energy, a lot of enthusiasm, but she's also sort of become more of a fully formed person.

And so I think she would bring a lot of energy to that situation and be able to kind of create some positivity out of it. And I think the movie that would be fun to rewatch is the Michel Gondry film, Be Kind rewind.

Oh, yeah.

Partly because, you know, so the plot of the movie is that they, these video store folks, their video, they own like one of the last video rental places and their video cassettes are conking out.

And so they are recreating classic movies by sort of filming them themselves on the lowest of low budgets so that folks can continue to rent Ghostbusters or what have you in some version. So sneakily you get be kind rewind, but you also get at least little glimpses of a bunch of other classic movies in there as well. So that's one fun.

It was also filmed in my hometown where I grew up in New Jersey, Passaic, New Jersey. So that's a fun little reminder of my childhood. And then also I just think, you know, it might be good inspiration.

You know, if we're stuck in this time loop, we've got time to kill. It might inspire us to do our own sweeted, as they call it version Sweeted. I'm wearing that in forever of movies.

And since my daughter is, you know, a drama student, I think she would be a good, a good fit for that. So that was my pick. If it were time to buy video games, my son would be my, my go to.

But since we talking movies, I think I would go with my daughter. So those are, those are my thoughts. I think. I think those would be two fun, fun times and hopefully you get to enjoy a movie with your dad.

But hopefully maybe not for the, for all of time going forward.

We'll see.

Yeah. But yeah. So everybody, thanks for, for joining us on this conversation.

Again, check everything out in this series and remember, if you're going to keep do it systematically.