"Is it better to honor death or create new life?" That’s the burning question that kicks off this episode of Systematic Geekology as Joshua Noel and returning guest Ryan Does dive deep into Guillermo del Toro's latest cinematic masterpiece, Frankenstein. The duo explores the rich themes of creation, loss, and what it truly means to be human, all wrapped up in del Toro's signature style. They chat about the film's emotional impact, the stellar performances, especially from Oscar Isaac and Jacob Elordi, and how the story resonates with the dark and light aspects of existence. With their usual banter and a sprinkling of humor, Joshua and Ryan dissect the film’s take on classic motifs while sharing personal reflections, making it a thoughtful journey for fans of the horror genre and beyond. Buckle up for a conversation that’s as engaging as it is insightful, and prepare to see Frankenstein in a whole new light!

The discussion kicks off with Joshua and Ryan diving into the intriguing theme: is it more noble to honor the dead or to forge new life? Their banter is light-hearted and full of witty exchanges, hinting at their excitement to delve into Guillermo del Toro's latest adaptation of Frankenstein. Ryan expresses his recent obsession with the film, reminiscing about his love for past adaptations while Joshua humorously admits to his struggles with pronouncing names, leading to a shared laugh. They touch upon their personal histories with the Frankenstein mythos, from the classic Universal films to their childhood encounters with the creature in Scooby-Doo episodes. As they analyze the film, they explore deeper themes such as fatherhood, grief, and the quest for immortality, highlighting how del Toro’s version provides a fresh yet faithful interpretation of Mary Shelley’s original work. They each reflect on how the film’s emotional core resonates with their own experiences, creating a rich dialogue that balances humor with poignant insights.

The episode encapsulates the essence of a thoughtful yet casual discussion about Frankenstein, exploring the dichotomy between creation and destruction. Joshua and Ryan tackle questions that resonate on both personal and philosophical levels, such as the nature of humanity and the inherent loneliness of the creature. With humor woven throughout their analysis, they reflect on their own interpretations of the film and how it connects to their experiences with loss and connection. They share their thoughts on the significance of del Toro’s artistic choices and how they enhance the storytelling, ensuring that the listener walks away with a deeper understanding of not only the film but also the timeless themes it explores. The episode is a delightful blend of intellect and levity, making it a treat for both die-hard fans of the Frankenstein legend and newcomers alike. As they wrap up, the camaraderie between the hosts shines through, leaving the audience entertained and enlightened.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, they explore the heavy themes of life creation versus honoring death in Guillermo del Toro's adaptation of Frankenstein, sparking deep philosophical conversations.
• Joshua and Ryan express their excitement over how Del Toro's Frankenstein honors the original novel while also bringing a fresh, modern perspective to the narrative.
• The discussion dives into the emotional depth of the characters, particularly the creature, showcasing how his interactions reveal profound themes of loneliness and the desire for connection.
• They highlight the impressive performances of the cast, especially Oscar Isaac and Jacob Elordi, and how their portrayals enrich the storytelling experience.
• Throughout the episode, they reflect on how the film challenges the viewer's perception of monstrosity and humanity, making them ponder what it truly means to be human.
• In a witty exchange, they share personal anecdotes about their relationships with the Frankenstein mythos, weaving humor into their passionate dialogue about literature and film adaptations.

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Is it better to honor death or to create new life? Well, we'll be discussing that and a lot more today on systematic geekology as we are reviewing Guillermo del Toro. I can't say his name. Frankenstein.

I'm excited for this one. I'm Joshua Nolan. I'm here with someone who can pronounce people's names. The one and only God of Thunder, Ryan Do.

Hey, buddy. Frankenstein.

Pod of thunder.

Yes.

Oh, man. Yeah. Yes. But also, thank you for those correct pronunciations. Absolutely.

The recent, recent thing I recorded, I. I literally just was like, here's the comic book and TJ will now tell you the names of the author. Oh, I didn't even try. I was like, guys, I can't. I'm just so bad at names.

You had to learn this in Bible college, Joshua. That the thing you gotta do when you get to a name you don't understand is say it quickly and confidently. Yeah, I mean, get past it.

You just gotta get through the names. You can't. Like the five syllable old Hebrew names. You just gotta breeze through them.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, other than old Hebrew names, Ryan, what have you been geeking out on lately?

Oh, my gosh. Other than this movie? Because I'm kind of obsessed with this movie now.

Joshua and I talked about it forever ago, and I. I just watched it a few days back at the time of this recording, and I rekindled my pretty consistent love of Frankenstein adaptations, but this one just kind of sent me into the stratosphere trying to think of, you know, all the different bits and pieces I can get out of this. I've also been just going back and revisiting some of their gothic horror inspired things. I reread a few Edgar Allan Poe short stories today.

I don't know if that counts as, like, what I've been geeking out about.

What a flight.

Yeah. In my defense, they are short. They are written at the length of story.

You got to have those pictures, understand?

So, you know, I've been reading a few Poe stories. I have a volume by my bedside that I was like, yeah, this kind of gives me the Frankenstein vibes.

But I've been watching a lot of horror movies and I don't know, just kind of like, oh, spooky stuff. I'm like on a. I'm on like a Halloween hangover right now. I don't want Halloween to be over with yet.

Man. It's just Thanksgiving season for me, and I just can't think of things that aren't Thanksgiving.

But it's an underrepresented holiday in media. It is. Unless it's the. The Thanksgiving Peanuts episode.

There's that. And you know, you know, there's a few Bob's Burgers. Does it, Justin?

Yeah, that's what Bob does. Thanksgiving better than.

That's it. But you know what I'm geeking out on though, actually. I've been replaying the Jak and Dexter games, so that. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's fun.

I'm about to start Jack 2 this weekend. I'm waiting till the weekend because I'm like, I need like a solid full day that I can like dedicate to.

Yeah, I totally get that. There's some things like Lord of the Rings I know I need to like, okay, I need to plan this rewatch.

It's not just something I can pop in because it'll take over my life for like three nights in a row. I totally get that mentality.

That's so true. Yeah. When Tiffany earlier this year was like, we're going to watch the Hobbit in Lord of the Rings. I'm like, great.

This is going to be a week long endeavor. It was great.

What week do we want to do this then?

She hadn't seen it until this year and she's actually a bigger fan than Lord of the Rings, so that's a fun take.

I wouldn't share that in certain places, but. Okay.

Okay. It's okay. Nick won't hear this, actually. I just don't think Nick would care at all. Nick is the kindest.

He'd be weirdly supportive. Like what you like. Yeah.

I think if we were all to get like two word descriptors, that might be how you could describe Nick Polk. Weirdly supportive.

Weirdly supportive.

Anyway, guys, if you want to be weirdly supportive, you can support our show by rating and reviewing wherever you get your podcast. And leave us the weirdest review.

Oh, gosh.

Do it for Nick. Do it for Nick. Give us a high rating with the weirdest review you can think of.

Yeah, I like that mentality.

Also, I want to shout out and thank one of our financial supporters today. I'm shouting out, James Barrett, you rock. And guys, if you want your own shout out, you can support our show for $5 a month on our website.

That's in the show's description. Same website. You can also get some free extra content, buy merch, and leave a one time financial gift on the site without joining as a member.

If you're not into that, you don't want to be an official geekologist. It's fine. But with that, let's go ahead and jump into this one.

Yeah.

And we'll start with our history of the character of Frankenstein. I think most people generally know something about Frankenstein, who he is or, you know, the story, etc.

And there's a billion adaptations from Scooby Doo to Universal to Once Upon a Time. Weirdly enough, I think that might have been the weirdest one, was the Once Upon a Time ABC series. When they did Frankenstein.

That might have been the strangest.

When did they do Frankenstein? Because I dropped off that show.

I think it was a few seasons in.

Okay.

When they were very clearly out of ideas. It was after that point. Oh, that point when you were like, oh, y' all don't know what you're doing.

Because the first few seasons, you're like, oh, this is really interesting. It seems like they had a plan and then they didn't.

Scooby Doo, I feel like the Frankenstein there isn't really Frankenstein, but that's probably my first introduction. And I was like, I kind of like the vibes. I kind of like the vibe of this monster. And then the Universal movies is when I was like, oh, this is cool.

And eventually I read the book and I was like, this is so much more than any of the other things made it. But, yeah. What about you? I know we're big. Universal, Frankenstein, we're both, like, big into the Universal adaptation.

But other than that, what's your history with the character?

I mean, it's probably simplest to say the Boris Karloff version of Frankenstein from the 30s.

But if I'm being perfectly honest and not snobby at all about it, it's probably some version of Scooby Doo, because I was watching Cartoon Network, I was watching old Hanna Barbera stuff, so probably a version of Scooby Doo. But I can't pinpoint exactly what version of the character, because it's. It's. Frankenstein's creature is so archetypal.

And it's not like you're not referring to one version of it. You're kind of referring to an aesthetic of it. But I. I was looking around.

I popped away from the screen just for a second to see if I could find some of my Frankenstein memorabilia around my. My desk area, and I cannot find my coolest bit of Frankenstein memorabilia. I have my. I have my copy of the book, my.

My Barnes and Noble Classics version of the book, and I need to. After the movie, after seeing the movie that we're going to talk about, I need to reread the book. I have not reread the book.

I have the same feelings.

So listen to a great audiobook version of it. I actually, a few weeks ago, watched a movie about Mary Shelley, which made me want to keep, you know, kind of digging deeper.

But my coolest bit of Frankenstein memorabilia, Josh, is I have a print, a print that I got at North Carolina Comic Con when Will and I did a panel together. And it is a recreation of my favorite scene from the Bride of Frankenstein where the monster is smoking the cigar with the blind man in his cabin.

And on the bottom of the print, it says, smoke Good. And that's my favorite scene in any Frankenstein movie. And I love that we got a little bit of an adaptation of that scene in this movie as well.

But obviously Del Toro's version of it, I would say. Yeah, it started with Scooby Doo. I read the book in high school and kind of fell in love with it on a deeper level.

And then, you know, when I was older, I re investigated the Karloff movies, and that was where my love of Boris Karloff came from. So, yeah, it's been. It's been kind of a multi layered evolution of enjoying the character and the story.

Yeah, yeah. Real quick, I do want to shout out Dan Steak S2R. I don't. I don't know what your name is. I'm guessing just Dan Steak. You know. Yeah.

People who leave comments, I like to shout out because I like people who pay attention to what we're doing live. So that's kind of cool.

But, yeah, as far as all the stuff goes, Bride of Frankenstein is probably my favorite of the Universal monster movies, just in totality, but Universal, I don't think they try to do a one for one adaptation of the book.

No, no, no. They definitely.

At all. Yeah. But, like, I feel like you still get some of the same messaging, which is kind of cool. This, however, I. I still.

He still didn't do like a one for one interpretation of the book. But, like, dang, it's like, oh, this is. This is what I would have thought if I read the book first and you told me we're getting a movie.

This is what I would have thought the movie.

Right, Exactly.

Universals, which I love Universals.

But it's very similar to the vibes of the book with that Del Toro aesthetic, that more abstract kind of fantasy take on a few of the different parts.

Yeah, yeah. And possibly just the greatest actors were chosen also. Shout out, Evan, we love you.

I have worked with Evan on a project here on systematic Ecology.

Yeah, yeah. If Evan wants to jump in, you can jump in.

I believe it was that we did the Alien Earth review. That was good times.

Gotta love Evan. But yeah, man, this movie was so cool. So as far like the actors, Oscar Isaac killed it. Perfect. Just so much killed it.

I was like, honestly, when I first heard it, I was like, okay, like, he's a good actor, so I believed he could pull it off, but I wasn't able to like imagine what it was going to look like. And then like, right as soon as he showed up on screen, I was like, oh, he is. I got it. I was like, I get it. Yeah. This is him.

In Netflix also released a fantastic 45 minute behind the scenes documentary style look at the production of the movie. And Del Toro in one of the cutaway interviews says, I wrote my version of Victor pretty much with Oscar Isaac in mind. So they had a meeting.

They were talking about fatherhood and being fathers of sons and being the sons of fathers, and it just felt right to both of them.

And I watched a few little clips of Oscar being interviewed for this movie and he just like went all in with this character and I love that he was able to connect with it on a personal level because you can see it come through in the movie.

Yeah, yeah. And it's. It's just wild because like reading the book, it would. I had a hard time. I would not want to be the person to try to make it into a movie.

I'll put it that way.

Yeah.

Because like Dr. Frankenstein, like, you get points where it's like, okay, so this is just an arrogant jerk. And then you get points where it's like, oh, wait, no, he's scared of his own mortality.

And then it's like, there's just so much to him that I'm like, I don't know, I feel like he needs like a whole TV show. And then we just like, oh, I. I guess if you just have this good of an actor and this good of a director, you can make it happen.

Absolutely. They were so locked in on the themes.

And I think that's really where Oscar Isaac in his performance really shown through the most was getting those themes to come forward of the fatherhood, the loss, the grief. He just. He nailed it, man. I thought he did awesome.

God, it was great. But we've got side tangent because we're excited about talking with this movie. We talked a little bit about our history with Frankenstein.

I do want to hear some of your history with the man whose name I can't pronounce who directed the film?

Guillermo del Toro. Guillermo. So personal history with Guillermo del Toro.

I. I would say the first movie I remember of his going to see on purpose, like, knowing it was him, was probably Pacific Rim, but retroactively, I did see the first Hellboy, so I really enjoyed Hellboy. And I'll be honest, I'm not like a dyed in the wool Guillermo del Toro, Stan.

So I don't know every single thing he ever made, but I have seen his Pinocchio and now I've obviously seen his Frankenstein. Pacific Rim is a guilty pleasure movie for me because I love giant robots and monsters fighting. His Hellboy is fantastic.

But now I gotta say, him doing Frankenstein shoots right to the top of my favorite things he's ever done or directed. Brought to. Brought to life. But, yeah, I would say I have a nominal.

A casual relationship with him as a filmmaker, but this movie definitely makes me want to go back and revisit other things.

Yeah. Yeah. I. I am just as bad with movies as I am with comics where, like, I just, like, enjoy the thing.

And then later someone tells me the director or the writers or whatever, and I'm like, oh, that's cool.

It makes perfect sense.

It's so funny that I've, like, I've had favorite directors and favorite authors and stuff, and even colors, like, artists for comics that I just, like. I didn't know they were my favorite. I just like, oh, I like this style. I like this style. I keep owning the same thing.

And eventually I realized, wait a minute. This style that I keep getting is all the same art. Yeah, it's like, yeah, like, so specifically, Guillermo del Toro.

I think I said it quick enough that.

It was really.

It was just like. We were talking about, like, how much I like Crimson Peak.

Then I was talking about, like, Hellboy, and then teachers, like, you know, the same guy helped with Puss and Boots for a little bit. I was like, what? What are you talking about? He's like, yeah, all these movies you're listing, they're all the same. I'm like, wait, what?

Yeah.

He's like, it's Gamba del Toro. And I was like, oh, like, these aren't, like, my favorite movies. They just happen to all be movies that I really like.

And, like, I'm like, oh, I guess I do enjoy this guy.

The real the shame is that I have not seen the Shape of Water yet, and I have not seen Pan's Labyrinth yet.

Yeah, I like seeing Shape of Water.

Um, but I need to see Del Toro's Shape of Water and I need to see Pan's Labyrinth, which are probably the two movies he's the best known for, but I have not seen, so.

Yeah, well, I love Hellboy. I love Crimson Peak. I love. Like, there are a lot. I just don't think, like, I don't know Blade two. Apparently, he's on.

Sorry, I just had Google pulled up, and, like, I didn't even know that. Yeah, there's a lot that he's on that I'm like.

I.

Like, I'm just not the kind of person who follows directors like that that, like, there's sometimes, like, obviously, obviously, you know Tim Burton.

Yeah.

Like, there are some that you'd know. There is no mistaking a Tim Burton movie. Like, you can't watch them be like, was that Tim Burton? Like, no. You know, there is absolutely no way.

You don't know.

Usually his name is before the title of the movie, too.

Yeah, that helps. It helps.

Yeah.

Well, you know, like, Dr. Seuss when it comes to, like, illustrations.

Right.

I'm like, there's some people. They're unmistakable.

You just know.

Yeah. So past that, I'm trying to pull up this outline, so I know what I was. Okay, this is actually. This is a fun one.

So I'm going to do a little bit of groundwork for this question, though. Right?

Yeah.

So we went into this movie. My wife went. She doesn't go to a lot of movies, but she likes the guy from Saltburn that plays the creature. What's his name?

Jacob Elordi.

Yes. Yeah, she likes him. So she was like, oh, sure. So we went and watched this movie, and she's, like, bawling by the end.

Oh, wow.

I didn't know that some Frankenstein movie was gonna make me cry. Way to go, Tiff. And I was like, yeah, that's what this movie is. And at first she was like, I don't know. Why do we watch that?

But now I think she's like, all. I think she's seen it more times, significantly more than I have, because she's watched it since it's been on Netflix.

A few times, and it's a beefy watch. It's two and a half hours, and you feel a little bit of the Pace, but it is kind of a quick two and a half hours.

Yeah. Evan's still watching. I think he's still talking about Gamer Toro.

He says I love these public about his love for Jabba the Hutt and how much he wants to make a kinkster.

Evan, I was watching the crap out of that.

Yeah, me too. That'd be great. Oh man. But yeah, so all that backstory, like, do you think.

Because I do think a lot of people have this kind of misconception that like. Oh, it's. I feel like we almost just associate Frankenstein's creature with just campiness in general because, you know, Scooby Doo Universal films.

Which isn't obviously the vibe that the original story had. No, but yeah, so it's really like misconceptions. What do you think?

Is that like the main one or there other stuff that you think people go going into this maybe weren't prepared for?

Here's, here's the, the, the thing about the, the campiness versus the seriousness of both this movie and Shelley's original novel.

And I believe, I believe the original two Frankenstein Universal movies are actually quite dour and, and very that they haven't leaned into the camp yet. Full like full send into the camp. But I think those two aspects of the archetype of the creature can exist together.

Like, I, I love some of the campier versions of Frankenstein, like the Hotel Transylvania version. I love, like Frank, I, I love that version.

I still haven't seen those movies.

He is. Well, there's like a thousand of them now, so, you know, ashamed of myself.

Those, those more fun, light hearted versions of the character, they can exist and present a version of the character that is. Obviously it's not, that's not in Shelley's novel. But then you can have kind of the pop culture campy versions.

But then when someone, when a director that's as gifted as this, in a cast that, you know, we didn't even mention, like Mia Goth is in this movie, Christoph Waltz is in this movie.

It's just cast is insane.

It's like you have pros on prose. On prose in this movie.

And when everyone's locked into making this character come alive again and it's in more of a truer sense, I think you can see where maybe a little bit of the campiness deadens the magic of this. But I walked out of this movie, Josh, just being like, oh my gosh, like the themes of the original story were like rekindled.

And I love how this movie made me feel and that's not something I say a lot with movies. Like, yes, movies can make you feel good, but that sense of, like, enrapturing that a movie can have with you is what this movie did for me.

Yeah. Yeah. Well.

And I think when you talk about, like, the grip that the story has and then, like, thinking about the campiness, I think there's more than one similarity between Frankenstein's Creature and Link from the Zelda games.

Okay.

Not only do they get mistaken for thinking that it's Zelda or Frankenstein when it's Frankenstein's Creature and Link, but also I think both of them, when taken out of the story they were meant for, I think almost have to be campy. Like, you have a creature that was just kind of put together from different body parts who doesn't understand what's going on.

If you take it out of the story in the world that it was formed for, like, that character is going to be campy. It's going to be a little silly. Like, oh, he's alive again. He's alive again again. You know, like, eventually it's like, really?

Which is why I'm a little worried about that live action Zelda movie, because Link doesn't speak. What do you do with that? Like, that's a terrible movie. He's good in his main character, that specific context.

Yeah.

But anyway, that's great. So if you had to.

Because I know you seem completely enthralled with the film, which I love it too, but if you had to rate it 0 to 10, how are you going to rate this version of the Frankenstein story?

That's so hard. You know, the number I feel the best with is like an eight, an eight and a half.

And that's like judging it based on, you know, does it remind me of the original novel? Yes. Does it. Does it give me the del Toro, like, aesthetic vibes? Yes. It's the fantasy aesthetic that he puts into a lot of movies.

And I'm telling you, man, like, the behind the scenes stuff is sometimes what makes me love a movie more. Because in. In the pressers afterwards, in the red carpet events, Guillermo del Toro's been very, very clear that he thinks AI is freaking crap.

And that's the nicest way I can put that.

And I couldn't agree with him more because this is like, when you watch the behind the scenes details of movie Making it should make you love that movie more. So if I had watched that and they just like. And then we threw a bunch of AI CGI crap all over Jacob Elordi's body, and, yeah, he's the monster.

It's like no 10 to 12 hours of makeup to be encased in this character and how that made the creature come alive in. In his presentation, that that stuff matters. It really freaking matters. So, no, it is not the same. Like, people that, you know, oh, we can.

We can generate an image that will look just as good. No, you freaking can't, because there's no soul in it.

So when Jacob Elordi puts on all this makeup and they're creating this character out of him, his soul is going into that performance, and you feel it. There is a distinct human difference. And just like, you know, creation creator, I. I love.

I love that the story cannot help but bring up themes of creation. I love that in the creation of this movie, it created in these actors and these production people so many different emotions and feelings.

So eight, you know, eight and a half. Nine. I don't know, man. Like, yeah, I don't think this movie fails.

Yeah. Yeah.

I. I'm glad you explained for a minute, because I was like, I am a really big fan of AI but not necessarily for CG creation or making videos, just in general.

I think the technology is actually incredibly useful, and we got a lot of improvements and things we need to do differently with how we're using it, but that's. That's always the case with technology. I feel like, you know, we use it for dumb things anyway. Moving away from that. Yeah.

If I were to read and review. See, it's hard because when I give ratings, I try to do it like, comparison. Not like, 0 is a failure, 100 is perfect.

But more like comparing it to other things, like rating it amongst other things. Right. And it's almost like I don't know how to rate it. Like, if I'm just movies in general, like, yeah, nine.

It's absolutely one of the best movies I've seen in, like, period Netflix movies. It's a 10. It might be the best Netflix movie I've seen.

Netflix movie. It might be an 11.

Yeah. You're asking me to compare it to other Frankenstein films? I'm like, I don't know.

Because the thing is, it's a much more genuine depiction of Frankenstein. I love it. But, man, something about those old Frankenstein Universal films are just.

There's so much nostalgia and magic to them that it's Hard for me to let go of those and be like, oh, yeah, this was better than those.

I don't.

I don't think I want to compare them, actually.

No, no, because it's a. It's a completely different form of movie making. Yeah, it's. Yeah.

But like Karloff, similar to Jacob Elordi, Boris Karloff was encased in this character.

Oh, yeah.

You know, physically, it took a toll on him, but you still see the soul and the humanity come through in so many of his smaller moments. And I think that's where Elordi kind of like captures that spirit, is in the small moments.

He is doing something that is craftsmanlike with his motions, with his expressions, with the tiny. The ticks and the way he emotes through. His vocal range in this movie is actually really incredible too.

His voice doing those narrations over the top of his story. I thought it was perfect. Just as much as Oscar Isaac was perfect for Victor, I think Elordi was perfect for the creature.

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I just too.

Yeah.

The only reason I wouldn't give it just a 10 point blank is mostly. I don't know, it does feel like it's missing that kind of magic, you know, like, it's so. I think it just happens too quick for me.

I think that's what it is. And it's a really long movie and I feel like I still was like, man, we put it a lot in here and I feel like I would have liked it spaced out even.

Like I needed more breathing room. Also, even though I'm adhd, I am the guy who watches Lord of the Rings only extended edition.

So, like, take what I say with a very tiny grain of salt.

Okay. Huh?

Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, Ryan thinks I'm a freak.

No, no, no, no. I know you're a freak. No, but I'm just. I'm just curious to drill in on that. Like what.

When you say it was missing a little bit of that magic, what was? I don't know. Is there any other descriptor you can give to that?

Yeah, I don't. I connected with the characters. Yeah. Okay. I think this is. This is going to be a weird explanation, but I think that's a good way to.

I connected with all the characters.

I feel like, you know, each individual, I was like, I really felt the character, but the world as a whole, like the Universal monster movies, I could just hear the soundtrack. You could just have one scene on the screen and I'm like, I feel something here. Lord of the Rings. Right.

Like, I just see the Shire and you hear the music and I'm like, yeah, I feel it. I don't think I feel this world. I feel the characters. I connect with them. I feel the story like the world itself.

I'm like, I don't know, there's just some. Almost feels lifeless, which probably was intentional actually, but I don't know. I like having a world that I'm like, I want to just live here.

Well, notice like in the major set pieces, you know, like the. In the Arctic, it's supposed to feel barren. It's supposed to feel empty. We're supposed to feel lost and isolated.

I kept thinking about Pirates of the Caribbean. I don't know why, but I'm just like, oh, yeah, that's. That. That one part. Sorry.

I think. I think your.

Your critique is fair and I think that maybe that is a success of the movie that you're drawn more to the characters and the landscapes around and the setting around. It makes you feel the way the scene and the layout makes you feel the emotion that the scenery is trying to provide for you.

Yeah.

But hey, that totally fair criticism. I. I don't think it's a perfect movie. But I cannot say what I don't like about it yet.

I'll probably have to watch it again and eat some of my words, but I'm okay with that.

Yeah, I. I do want to say, personally, I could be wrong for you. For you. I do think probably both of us are like over correcting for recency bias or like, we don't want to say a 10 because we just watched it.

We're just hype about it. But then like in a couple of years we're like, no, maybe it was a 10. Like I could see that happening. Like, be like, ah, yeah.

Because I do that where like, I'm afraid of recency bias. And I'm like, I just feel this way right now because I just watched.

It as your friend. I'm gonna like people listening to this, people watching this. I just want you to hear this. If.

If you have a problem with Joshua liking stuff and being excited about it, I am at I Amryon Doze on Instagram. Come and fight me over it. Joshua gets to be excited for about whatever he wants to be excited about.

And this is when we're gonna start talking about Kingdom Hearts Will.

Oh, no, no. I actually draw the line.

That's it. Okay, well, let's talk about the movie then.

When I talk about the things like that I love so much, the Parts that I do love because, you know, I don't know about what I criticize. I feel like I need to talk about the stuff I love, too. It were all the little moments where, like, Frankenstein's creature.

I love that I don't like Frankenstein, but Frankenstein's creature, like, had all these moments where he was making these genuine connections with people. And then just to see how it was trashed or destroyed or ripped away from him. Like, I don't know, something about just the.

Their ability with these quick little scenes, like, with the. With the older man here, where it was like, how did you.

Like, it's like that annoying scene in Community, like, one of the first episodes, and the guy's like, see this pencil? I'm gonna name it Fred Snap. Oh, now we all feel something. And I'm like, that's how I feel about so many of these scenes.

Like, was like, okay, you see Frankenstein, he met this family, and now they're dead.

And now they're dead.

Okay.

Yeah, but is. That's like. That's the. The efficiency of his storytelling shows you you can get a connection with this older man. And I, like. I.

This scene, like, I. I will say I have more of an emotional connection with it in Bride, but I loved that they made me care about this scene. I love that they made.

They drew the strong disposition, you know, the strong dispositional comparison between how Victor becomes his father when his creation is not what he envisioned, or the circumstances of his creation. Growing up isn't happening as fast. He's not learning as fast, because Victor at the beginning, can't.

You know, he knows some things, but he can't tell, you know, what. What does this valve in the heart do? And it's like, okay, you get a whip on the face. That's what Victor ends up doing to the creature.

But nobody else in the movie does that. Only Victor does. So when.

When the old man in the shack meets the creature, he has nothing but friendship and camaraderie and understanding for him because he. He feels with him. He's not trying to have the creature become something else at an expedited rate.

Elizabeth, Mia Goth's character, does the same thing. She shows him the compassion that Victor just will not.

And so I love the scene, like, with the old man, and it made me feel like the scene in Bride makes me feel.

And I feel sadness because the creature has finally found someone that is willing to sit with him, understand him, speak with him, not speak at him, to teach him to be patient and, like, wow, as a Parent. Holy cow. Was that convicting? Yeah, I. I love that scene. I just. You'll never get me to shut up about that.

That scene in any adaptation, because I think it's one of the most beautiful pieces of writing and filmmaking. It's so simple, but yet so layered.

Yeah. I think to me, too, this is where I'm a little bit of a hypocrite, because part of when I'm like, I wanted it longer.

It's like, I kind of wanted to see the Frankenstein's creature just happy longer. I wanted him to get to spend more time at this house with this old man. But I think part of the point is that he doesn't get it that long.

It's just like a glimpse.

That is the tragedy of it.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, I want to see more of it before it gets rich ways.

Like, I know it'll hurt worse if I saw more, but I still want that because I get. I still know. I still. Maybe I'm that weirdo who's like, what's it better loved and lost than not loved at all? I'm like, I just.

You know, I wish he just had something for some time. Yeah. You know, other than just quick glimpse here and there. Anyway, I mean, that. Yeah, it is a tragedy that. That's the point. I do.

I want it ask you maybe a weird question here. So I don't. What is the story about, basically? Because, like, at some, like, I could see multiple answers of this making sense.

And maybe it's like, yes, all of the above, but, like, honoring death. You know, one of the first scenes we see with Dr. Frankenstein, they're doing an image of that.

I forget the Latin phrase for remember your death that Josh Patterson likes to talk about all the time.

Yeah.

They're doing one of those, like, art pieces, and it's like, okay, so. Okay, so this is what it's about. And he's, like, creating life, and he's trying to deny the fact that he will die.

And he's like, oh, look, humans can be immortal. But then also, you see him trying to play God.

And then, like, you even have, like, a very clear reference where Frankenstein's creature is like, it's not good for me to be alone. And it's like, oh, wait, is this, like, what happens when we try to be God and it's a warning to science? Or is it, like, you know, about parenting?

Or is it about, you know, where we find meaning, what it means to be a human, what makes us a monster? What is it about all of it. All of the above.

It's about all of it and more.

Well, Harlander even says he makes an explicit biblical reference when he says, now that we have created our Adam, I will be next and you will put my. You will put me inside this body. Victor rejects that because he's already completely diseased through.

It's why Harlander, Christoph Alston's character, it's why Harlander is at any expense, he is trying to thwart off death. He is willing to throw any amount of money, any amount of resource, any amount of power and control that he has.

He's throwing it at Victor so that Victor can save him from the death that he knows is coming. That is Harlander's motive.

And for some of us, we read into the story ourselves, maybe we are trying to thwart off the death that we know is inevitable.

Or maybe we're Mia Goth's character, Elizabeth, where we see the beauty in the small things and we're willing to interact with the world with empathy, with this wonder, wow, she's. She's studying insects and Victor is completely like, studying insects. Like, I could have swore you were just picking up romances in the market.

She's like, no, I'm intrigued by the finer things in life.

Which is why she encounters the creature with such empathy, because he is a large, hulking figure, but he is also small in a way where his understanding and his experience is small. So she interacts with that, with compassion. So you can look at it that way.

You can look at it through Victor's lens of trauma, losing the one person in his life that meant the world to him. He loses his mother in a situation of childbirth where his brother is born.

And he and his brother have strange relationship because of the circumstances of William's birth. So Victor loses a mother, William gets all the love of a father that Victor never had, and he loses his mother in the process.

So I, again, I'm going to refer to the behind the scenes Netflix documentary that everyone should go watch. It's called the. The Anatomy. The Anatomy of Frankenstein, something like that. Anatomy Lesson. It's called Anatomy Lesson.

Mia Goth's character, Mia Goth, in this interview says, the beauty of this movie is that it is about many different things and Del Toro allows you the freedom to come away with your own conclusions. That is, to me, that is the theme of the movie. It raises all of these topics.

Fatherhood, trauma, death, life, living through experience, having compassion on others.

It brings all those topics to the surface and allows you to sit with it and you get to walk away thinking and fixating on probably the one that stood out to you the most because it's the one that's most piercing, your heart piercing through all the other different layers. I think that's the beauty of a good movie is it brings up so many different feelings. We've referenced Lord of the Rings several times.

Joshua, Lord of the Rings does that. What is Lord of the Rings about? It's about many things.

Like what is second breakfast? That was the point. We should have two breakfasts.

It's about spreading your carbs out throughout the day.

Yeah. That's why Tolkien wrote the book.

Yeah, yeah. Other films and movies for me that I go back to, I watch Ridley Scott's Alien movie a lot because the themes are so multi layered.

I watch John Carpenter's the Thing a lot. I watch Star Wars a lot.

I watch Lord of the Rings a lot because the themes, it's not just about one thing, it's about this kaleidoscope of human experience. And that is the beauty of it, is that it's not just about one thing.

And I'm sorry, that's kind of a cop out answer, but I actually do believe it's the real answer.

Yeah, I mean, I just set you up for that sermon. It was like an alley oop sermon.

You know, I say this a lot, but I still got a little bit of that dog in me.

I like it, I like it.

I'm a little curious if the reason it's called the Anatomy Lesson is just because Frankenstein, you know, with body parts, or if it's a, you know, a nonchalant nod to that Swamp Thing story. Because that would be kind of cool. I mean it's kind of relevant, similar, similar themes.

But what I do think is interesting, one of the things messaging wise, that stood out the most to me makes me go, I know they're not going to do it, but makes me go, man, if this version had a Bride of Frankenstein, it would actually be really compelling because it was. It's the opposite of Mia Goth's character, right.

Where like the doctor was starting to fall for her, but instead she's developing feelings and showing compassion to the creature. Right. And then you would have the opposite of that where the doctor or some doctor is creating something for the creature to have.

You know, it's not good for man to be alone kind of deal. And then instead the created woman creature would then fall in love with the doctors. You have that opposite thing happening there, right.

And I think it would be really poetic, really Interesting to see that in this world, but we won't.

Well, I know. Yeah. Probably not in this world. I know, though, Maggie Gyllenhaal, the actress, she is. She is directing a Bride adaptation.

Yeah. I think it comes out in February.

Yeah. So I'll be very interested to see that. And maybe we'll come back to talk about the Bride, directed by Mag.

I'm absolutely down.

I'm here.

I'm here for it. All right, so I think my last question.

So a lot of people in different theological circles, especially some of the theological circles that we kind of hang out in a little bit, right.

We do this thing of like, okay, so we have this inclination of love giving us meaning or, you know, whatever, and then we put that on God and we're like, okay, so this must tell us something about the Creator or the divine or insert your favorite phrase here to talk about this stuff.

Yes.

And what's interesting is, like, I guess you see some of that here, but really, no, I feel like the creature is just so much more compassionate, so much better than the Creator that I'm like, I feel like I can't think of the story and go, well, you know, if this is true on a human level with stuff that we create, I don't think it's fair to then assume everything about us must tell us something about the divine, because logically, apparently, it's not always the case.

I. So I'm looking in my book for a specific. For a specific line, but I don't think I'm gonna be able to find it. Oh, no, no, no. Hold on.

I did find it. I did find it sweet.

In the. So the character of the old man is named Delacy in the. In the book, and the creature in him are talking about Paradise Lost. And there's just a.

There's just a section. Joshua, I promise I will not. I will not bore people to tears.

But there is a reading from the Book of Frankenstein.

Starting reading from the. This is for those of you that maybe want to know. It's in the 15th chapter.

It's where Delacy and the old man and Frankenstein's creature are having a discussion about books, because now the monster can read. And this passage says, I endeavored to crush these fears and to fortify myself for the trial which in the few months I resolved to undergo.

And sometimes I allowed my thoughts, unchecked by reason, to ramble in the fields of paradise and dared to fancy amiable and lovable creatures sympathizing with my feelings, cheering my gloom. Their angelic countenances breathed smiles of consolation. But it was all a dream. No Eve soothed my sorrows, nor shared my thoughts. I was alone.

I remembered Adam's application to his creator, but where was mine? He had abandoned me. And in the bitterness of my heart, I cursed him. So, obviously the book goes on from there, but I do. I love.

I love that the preacher sees himself as an Adamic character in his own story. And I think sometimes that is really. It's really fitting that we can see ourselves as a creation that might be, at times, abandoned by their creator.

And so when we feel that distance, when we feel that loneliness, when we feel that separation, we can tend to curse our creation. There's a. A line in the movie. The rest of this podcast is not a reading. Everybody but the.

The line that the creature says, and Jacob Elordi just delivers so well that I wanted to read. I pulled it up here so I can get it done word for word. But he says, an idea, a feeling became clear to me that the hunter did not hate the wolf.

The wolf did not hate the sheep. But violence felt inevitable between them. Perhaps I thought this was the way of the world. It would hunt you and kill you just for being who you are.

And then a few minutes later, he said, after the hunters have tracked him down, he says, there was silence again, and then merciless life, because he cannot escape this. He is a created being that cannot escape his own destruction. Now, we are not like that. We are fallible, finite people.

But I think it does evoke that emotion from Shelley's novel, where as the created being, you see yourself, and sometimes you curse the one that created you. I think it's a very human thing. And usually that's an emotion that, you know, in the church world to be like, don't curse.

You know, it's a, you know, don't curse God. I think God is big enough. Like, I think God is big enough for your questions. I think God is. I actually think that.

I don't think that there's, like, this secret mystery question that God's not ready for, and he's, oh, I didn't study for that one. Like, I love. I love the humanity of this character.

So I read those things just to remind you that the creature is a very human character, and we are human characters in our own story. So allow yourself to be a human character. Feel doubt, feel desperation, feel loneliness. But know that the cursing out, that can be a cathartic thing.

It doesn't have to be something you have to Feel guilt for.

Yeah.

Sorry, Joshua. I apologize. I liked this movie.

I love this movie. Quick, couple things.

One, I like that he has all these references to Adam and Eve, especially when that ties right back into what does it mean to be human. Right? Because the name Adam is mankind. Like, that's what that name means. So it's like, oh, is he Adam? Am I Adam? Are you Adam?

Which I think also is what we're supposed to do when we read the Genesis story, but just gonna leave that there. But also, you talk about cursing God and you think God's big enough to take it. This is what I thought of just personally.

And then I'm ready to move on if you are, because I know we. We got places to be, things to do.

I am a manager at a restaurant, and for me, personally, when I have the workers who are nice to my face but don't actually do anything, and they're just, you know, sucking up, you know, whatever, so that they can get by with not doing crap. Here's a secret. I don't like those workers. I'm not a fan.

But the workers who complain and talk about, you know, me behind my back and say all the mean things because they're just disgruntled because they're working so hard and they're tired. I'm like, oh, they're tired. I get it. You need someone to blame. If it's me, that's cool. But guess what? That's the person who got the job done.

And at the end of the day, I like that person who talked, really said some really mean things about me. Way better than the person who sucked up to me. Wow.

Yeah.

And I have to feel like.

And I'm not trying to say, you know, God feels everything I feel because we just talked about that, but I have to think, you know, God's big enough that he's probably like, yeah. Cares more if you're doing the work of the spirit or however you want to word it, the work of love in the world.

More so than if you're saying nice things about him. I feel like he probably cares more about that.

I. Joshua, can I also.

Sorry that I said he. Leah, I think the divine cares more about that. I'm trying to. I am actually trying to do better about that. It's just.

I know Lee is the one that would absolutely say something, so you know how to make it funny, you misogynistic asshole. Yeah.

At some. At some point towards the end here, I do. I just want to fit in one more. One more thing. From the movie. One more. One more line.

Because I think it's a great. I think it's a great description of what you're talking about. That realness, that not. Not sucking up, maybe approaching people with genuineness.

But then I promise everybody I'll move on. But this was a powerful moment of the movie.

And it does come from the scene that I've already mentioned a thousand times where the creature says he goes away. He goes away and he investigates his beginnings. And he comes back to the cottage and he says, I'm going to try not to cry.

I found what I am, what I am made from. I am a child of a charnel house, a wreckage assembled from refuse and discarded dead. I am a monster. How many of us have felt that?

But then the old man replies, I know what you are. You are a good man, and you are my friend. Phew. I got through without crying.

Yeah, I'm impressed. Personally.

It's such a beautiful scene.

And if you can't see your fellow man in that way, especially at the depth of their despair, my goodness, has the humanity been diminished in you then? But to look at somebody who sees nothing in themselves but terribleness and mistakes and awfulness, and to reply, I know what you actually are.

You are my friend. Because that. It insists on closeness, it insists on compassion, it insists on empathy.

And I just think the world would be a better place if we replied to people like the old man replies to the creature.

Yeah, I fully agree. And I want to be the cheesiest kind of Christian who tells you about a Lecrae song.

Oh, my God. So.

So last year. Last year, Kendrick Lamar mentions Drops Lecrae's name in a song that's Let the party Die.

And, you know, and in it, he's like, I asked myself, what would Lecrae do? And Lecrae actually does eventually end up with a verse back at the song. And it's not like it's like the opposite of rap battle.

It's like rap compliment, back and forth, rap compliments. I don't know. But it's so funny because, like, he's talking about, like, what would Lecrae do? And he has this thing, he's like, the blood of Uriah is.

The blood of Uriah is on my hand because I'm that killer who had Bathsheba in his quarters. I'm that. And he doesn't say the word because, you know, Christians are cowards sometimes who let Eve taste the fruit of death. I'm that sinner.

I deserve death. With these Liars and the hypocrites fake tough rappers who fabricate their predicaments.

And he just goes on, he's like, I. I'm the real evil sometimes. And I think, you know, sometimes I think it is cathartic to confess to God, be like, you know what? I'm lowly.

I also think it's important we have these moments with each other. That's why we are the body of Christ. We're not, you know, the body who looks up to Christ somewhere.

I think it is important that we are in communion community. I don't think necessarily has to be Christian community, personally, but I think it is help.

Religion is helpful sometimes in these cases, but you have to sometimes look at yourself. You know what? Actually, I get saying. And I'm happy that you complimented me. You said, what would. What will Craig do? But like, I like that he's like.

But also, I got to be honest with you, sometimes I feel like I'm. I am the monster, I'm that sinner. I'm the liar, I'm the murderer.

And maybe you're not literally all of those things, but, like, it's important a thing to acknowledge when we feel those things and again, yet genuine. I think maybe a large part of this film is just remembering that we should be genuinely human.

Yeah.

And that's okay. It's even a good thing. Better than trying to be Frankenstein. It's a great thing. Don't be Dr. Frankenstein. Just be human.

Because I think that was his problem. He was trying to be more than human. And. Well, we saw how that ended. Yeah. And we'll keep saying it as this story keeps getting told over and over.

Anything else before we wrap up, Ryan?

No, man. You have allowed me to speak on Frankenstein for almost an hour, so I owe you a favor. I owe you one Kingdom Hearts conversation at a later date.

But I get to choose when.

Listen, it's when Kingdom Hearts 4 drops and they have a Marvel world and Thor is there. Then I should be on across the Bifrost, the document.

Pencil me in for it. Just don't expect me to have a lot of punch back because I know.

Just know Kingdom Hearts 4 will probably drop in like a decade, so I probably don't have to worry about it.

I have time. I have time. Oh, man.

All right, so let's go ahead and. Sorry. We should have too much fun together, man. This is why we can't do this regularly. It's too much fun. I love it.

I love it.

Let's jump to this wrap up we'll do a bonus question people watching live will get. And then other people will have to go to become an official member if they want to hear.

The bonus is what might it be like for Guillermo del Toro to make the next Marvel's Thor film?

It would be insane. I did have this thought.

Wait. We got to wait so I can edit this later.

For now, we're going to give a recommendation other than you have to check out, because Ryan is prepared for a great answer to this. My recommendation right now is gonna be I'm literally just like the thing next to me. The Supernatural comic book is actually pretty good.

I think they changed some of the how the characters are depicted to not my favorite. But if I'm taking a story on its own and not being like, oh, that's not literally the exact same as Dean.

So I got over myself and enjoy the story for what it was. It was pretty great.

Sorry, Chad. Chad. Jared Padalecki's visage is hard to recreate. Yeah. So gosh darn handsome.

That's. That's the problem.

That is the problem.

But, Ryan, what about you? If you have a recommendation for those listening.

So earlier on I said that I've been reading. I've been rereading some at Ground Poe. I really am vibing with the Mask of the Red Death right now.

The idea of a elite class shutting themselves away from the sorrow and death of the world, who believe themselves inescapable, coming to a very inevitable end despite their best efforts, for some reason, that's just, like hitting me right now. But go read, like, online. Just go read or listen to a YouTube reading of the Mask of the Red Death.

It's a very quick read, but I do think there's some really powerful, cool imagery in there that is very current.

All right, I'm gonna take you up on that tonight.

Yeah.

Also, what you guys should take us upon tonight is to be like Nick and be weirdly supportive. View our show wherever you get your podcast again, give us that five star rating, and please give us the weirdest review you can think of.

I really want to read some of these. I'll read them on air if they're weird enough.

Yeah.

Also, again, thank you, all of our financial supporters today. We're especially shouting out James Barrett. James, you're amazing. Thank you so much for your support.

I want to remind listeners that you too can get your own shout out by supporting our show for $5 a month on our website. That's down below in the description. Again, same website. You can get some free extra content.

If you don't feel like signing up, you can buy some merch. You can leave a one time financial gift without becoming a member. If you don't want that, like, monthly thing looming over you, I get it.

James. James, you beautiful son of a gun. Thank you.

Yes, James. I don't know why James is making me think of Adventure Time.

There's.

There's someone in Adventure Time that's just James. Okay. Anyway, for now though, James, I hope I remember what I'm thinking of. And I hope you guys remember that we are all a chosen people temple.

A geekdom of priests.