🎙️In our latest episode, host Dr Ged Hall interviewed another of his #ResearchImpactHeroes Dr David Phipps, Assistant Vice President of Research Strategy and Impact at York University in Toronto and co-founder of Research Impact Canada! Discover how a 40-year journey from HIV research to knowledge mobilisation helped build one of the world's most influential impact networks.

🔹 Hear David's winding path from immunology research during the HIV/AIDS crisis to becoming a pioneer of "knowledge mobilisation" - years before the term even existed. 🔹 Learn why Canada thinks about impact as a "how", not a "what" - and why not having a REF has been a blessing, not a barrier.

🔹 Discover the origin story of Research Impact Canada, which began in 2006 with two universities and "no small amount of hubris."

🔹 Explore how a global community of impact networks - from the UK's UPEN to Chile's Vincula to New Zealand's IPEN - is learning from each other across borders.

🔹 Understand the toughest question David still grapples with: how do you build impact capacity in a resource-constrained system?

If you're passionate about making research matter, building professional communities, and creating real-world change, this episode is for you!

David shares his impact heroes too - shoutouts to Susan Renoe (ARIS, USA), Francisca Reyes (Vincula, Chile), and Wade Kelly (Deakin University) for the work they're doing to grow the global impact movement.

You can connect with David via LinkedIn and Bluesky.

Organisations, episodes, literature mentioned in the episode:

• York University Knowledge Mobilisation
• Research Impact Canada
• Advancing Research Impact in Society (ARIS)
• Universities Policy Engagement Network (UPEN)
• Vincula
• Impact Planning and Evaluation Network (IPEN)
• (Episode 117) Navigating the Academic and Professional staff boundary with Dr Wade Kelly
• The Co-produced Pathway to Impact Describes Knowledge Mobilization Processes journal article

All of our episodes can be accessed via the following playlists:

1. Research Impact with Ged Hall (follow Ged on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
2. Research Impact Heroes with Ged Hall
3. Open Research with Nick Sheppard (follow Nick on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
4. Research Careers with Ruth Winden (follow Ruth on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
5. Research talent management
6. Academic Failure with Taryn Bell (follow Taryn on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
7. Meet the Research Culturositists with Emma Spary (follow Emma on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
8. Research co-production
9. Research evaluation
10. Research leadership
11. Research professionals

Follow us on Bluesky: @researcherdevleeds.bsky.social (new episodes are announced here), @openresleeds.bsky.social, @researchcultureuol.bsky.social

Connect to us on LinkedIn: @ResearchUncoveredPodcast (new episodes are announced here)

Leeds Research Culture links:

1. Researcher Development and Culture Website
2. Our Concordat Implemention plans and progress
3. University of Leeds Research Culture Statement
4. University of Leeds Responsible Metrics Statement
5. University of Leeds Open Research Statement
6. University of Leeds Research Culture Strategy - launched September 2023
7. Public Engagement with Research

If you would like to contribute to a podcast episode get in touch: [email protected] [GH1]Note: this and the LinkedIn post are identical up to this point. If you make an edit in one I will copy it across to the other.

Ged Hall 00:00:23 Welcome. My name is Ged Hall, and I'm the Head of Researcher Development at the University of Leeds.

My researcher development specialism is research impact, covering the development of individuals, both researchers and research impact professionals, and organisational development related to research impact. So all of the episodes I contribute to the podcast focus on that And they're all available via a playlist which is in the show notes.

But today is the fourth in a series of special interviews with my research impact heroes. The first was Professor Mark Reed, um, the second with Dr. Julie Bayley, the third was with Dr. Tamika Heiden, and a playlist with all those interviews is also available in the show notes. Now the idea for the series is to highlight the amazing community that drives research impact around the world, and there is always that selfish aspect because, um, it gives me a, an excuse to get an hour on my own with these brilliant people to talk about my passion.

I'm really looking forward to today's interview because the interviewee was the first person to make me laugh out loud with an answer about research impact. That person was Dr. David Phipps, who is Assistant Vice President of Research Strategy and Impact at York University in Toronto. David, I'm really looking forward to this, and welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast.

Ged Hall 00:01:58 That would be lovely. You've already, uh, you've already got me tittering, so. Good. So there should be... You should be able to hit that impact goal.

Ged Hall 00:02:07 Yes, indeed. Now David, in, in my standard interviews, I normally put together a bit of a biographical introduction, but really I think for these, listeners won't be downloading this episode to hear me tell them about you, um, the hero.

So could you tell us a little bit about how you got involved in research impact, the route, however winding and meandering it was, and what motivates you about it and, and drives you to publish about it so much?

I was doing my master's at Queen's University in Kingston. I was in immunology, and I joined the Kingston AIDS Project in 1986, so 40 years ago from t- from this year. It was the mid-'80s. Uh, we didn't call it knowledge mobilisation. I didn't know that I was doing knowledge mobilisation, but I was researching in immunology and trying to help my community, which at that time was being decimated by a disease that we were only beginning to understand.

And this is very important. In the mid-'90s, we, Canada was undergoing the Krever Commission, which is a commission looking at the tainted blood supply scandal. Mm-hmm. And, um, and we needed a rapid test to reduce the period of detection from infection to detection of, um, infection. And, um, we were, uh, I was at the Canadian Blood Services, so this was a very important topic at the time.

And, uh, the University of Toronto filed a patent on that. It was actually licensed to industry. It didn't work, which is why I have a job and not a private island somewhere, because that would've been a very lucrative patent portfolio. Nonetheless, it was the first time that I realised that, um, research can have a life beyond the lab, a life beyond the publication.

Uh, then I joined, um, a research funding organisation called the Canadian Arthritis Network I was, um... Oh, sorry, I should also say that I, then I, I left the lab and joined the Innovations Foundation, so became a tech transfer guy, a university industry guy, and then I was worked in the Canadian Arthritis Network.

Um, and day four on the job, I'm a university industry guy, and my job was about intellectual property and commercialisation. Day four on the job, I'm presenting to a group of community doctors and, um, arthritis specialists, and I was talking about bench to bedside, bench to bedside. And Elizabeth Badley, a, a wonderful...

She, she challenged me. She said, "David, most of our patients don't hit the bedside. We need to think chromosome c- to community, not bench to bedside. So you need to find a way for our research to be able to reach our, um, our, our patients in community." And so, um, and the other experience I had was we were a funding organisation.

We were, we funded according to the research proposal, the researcher's track record, and we called this IP, um, as another, uh, assessment criteria. We had this amazing proposal from a researcher who was looking at, uh, ways to keep people with arthritis in the workplace longer, and it scored a zero on IP.

And I said, "Hang on. This is the opportunity to benefit people. Sure, it won't be through a patent, but this has the, the opportunity. We should, we need to change IP to something else." Uh, then I, then I ended up working, um, at the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. Um, I was doing IP, but also partnerships.

And then again with, um, Health Canada and IDRC, we developed the Canadian Coalition for Global Health Research. And so I realised that through partnering and through partnerships, there was an ability to bring research without going through commercial pathways to benefit, um, uh, to benefit, uh, people. And so, um, they're all non-commercial pathways to impact.

And my key takeaways are, one, research can have a life beyond the lab or the studio or the office. Research needs to partner to make a difference and, and that from local to global impacts, both are important. Global impacts are not more important than local impacts. Anyway, that's what I learnt there. Two thousand and three, I was hired by my current u- university, York University, so I've been there twenty-three years almost.

We've, we've just launched a school of medicine, but you put a social justice guy, uh, so sorry, a liberal, um, a university industry guy in a social justice setting, and I said, "You know, we've, we've got a little bit of engineering, and we do tech transfer. We've got all of this bench strength that's relevant to public policy, to social services, and to professional practices.

We do nothing to broker that." And so, um, that's where ... That’s, that was the or- the origin of our knowledge mobilisation unit and then Research Impact Canada, which I know we're gonna talk about later. So that's how I got to where I am. Now, your second part of your question was what, what motivates me. Yeah.

And I, I, I think it's three things. Innovation, I saw a gap. I saw a gap at our university. We were the first university in Canada to create a knowledge mobilisation unit under the vice president research, so I saw an opportunity. The second, helping others really motivates me. I've been doing this for 30 years, 40 if you include my master's work, and I'm now seeing amazing new talent enter the impact space.

And do you know what? It, it ... You know, 10 years ago, um, there weren't many of us doing this work, 10, 15 years ago. Now there's a lot of people doing this work, and, um, my motivation is to help them, um, in their careers. And the third is bringing Canada to the world. You know, Canada doesn't have a REF, and that's delightful.

We'll talk more about that, but, um, impact can thrive without a REF, and if I can bring this Canadian model to, to the world and, and, and help other countries, uh, realise that you don't need a REF to do impact, that, um, there's REF impact and there's impact non-REF- Mm-hmm ... and we'll talk a bit about those. I don't need the money from a REF-like exercise to motivate me to support impact.

in terms of peaking your interest. But, um, yeah, it's fascinating. You know, y- you, you've kind of taken me back. You're, you're only a little bit older than me. And it was just, like, fascinating. And when I f- when I first started in my job, you know, the, the amount of, um, draft presentations I used to see about AIDS research, you know, it really was, um, certainly from medicine and health faculty, um, faculty researchers, it really was the big challenge at the time, and it's fantastic that, uh, that all of that work has really...

You know, now you don't see as much of that research- Mm-hmm ... being talked about because there are now other things, other challenges have emerged. So yeah, great to hear your, um, your history in that.

Ged Hall 00:10:14 Yes. Absolutely. So I mentioned in my introduction that you were the first person to make me laugh out loud about research impact, and that occurred during an interview where, actually, Tamika was interviewing you for one of her early, uh, I think it might have even been the first of her- I, I-

research impact summits ...

Ged Hall 00:10:47 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, in, in my interview with her, we focused on that a lot and also, um, now with, um, with the Impact Ignite conference, actually bringing the community physically together as well as, uh, as well as sharing that, sharing those interviews- Mm

um, online, which, uh, which have been going for, for quite some time. Now, the thing that made me laugh was Tamika asked about, uh, your definition of research impact, and, uh, and you shot back with, uh, "I don't really wanna get into that definitional dystopia." Which at the time, you know, when we were, we were in that kind of like you mentioned, the REF, Research Excellence Framework, and, you know, there were loads of academics who were going, "What does that, what does that definition mean?"

And picking holes in it, and kind of, "Does my thing fit?" And it's kind of like- Essentially the definition is an effect on anything outside of academia. So if we can park a bus on that anything. That's

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's very ... It's a big definition, and you can, you need to, you can find your- anyone can find themselves in that.

David Phipps 00:12:10 Right.

You know, it probably isn't the definitional side of things, but what's the thing that kind of go, "Do you know what? I really need a better answer to this"?

Mathematicians are so creative, but they're so esoteric to non-specialists, right? And, um, but nonetheless, I use the same tools that I use for a social scientist or a policy relevant research, you know, and I, and I ask up front, you know, what are the potential uses? It might be 40 years out, but what might- Mm

what are the potential uses? Not only exploring end users, but next users. Who could be the next users? Because often when you're, when you're that far out, you don't know what the end user is, but you might know who is next user. Mm. And, um, who are the people? How do they want to be engaged? How will you know if you've made a difference?

So I will say that, um, I, I still, I can get anxious when thinking about mathematicians. The question though that I find, um, that I struggle with still is, how do we create a system that supports impact in resource constrained environments? And we were talking about this, Ged, that, um, you know, the Canadian system, the UK system are really struggling right now, um, with financial challenges and, um, we've got no money at, at, in the Canadian system, and so it's hard to travel, it's hard to do professional development.

And, you know, when we're thinking about these non-commercial pathways to impact, there's money in governments, but governments, at least in Canada, are funding only commercialisation and industry partnerships. Mm. They're not, you know, we don't have policy engagement units. Um, we're, we're developing knowledge mobilisation units supported through Research Impact Canada.

But I would say that while we've got a large number of institutions in the membership, I feel that most of the jobs are still precarious.

David Phipps 00:14:35 Right? Um, and that is changing at a number of universities. But I think one thing that we need to be mindful of as we think about this, and it's the hardest to answer question, is how do we do this when we don't have any money?

How do we do this work when there's expectations, especially REF expectations, um, expectations by REF when, when there's not a lot of money in the system? And so I find that to be the most challenging question, is how do we res- how do we find the resources that we desperately need when there's so much competition for those resources?

but easier, and when it's harder, and this feels like the hardest time, um, in my career. I don't know if that-

Ged Hall 00:15:56 Yeah. Yeah. And what, um, I know you haven't got a, you know, you're challenged by that question, but what, what steps have you, you tried to take in terms of, you know, moving it along, moving the, moving the dial on it?

At the university, uh, we're fortunate that, uh, we've ... We established our knowledge

mobilisation

And so we've, um ... We haven't had to Well, we've had, uh, all positions have had to be justified of late, so, but fortunately, um, and we'll talk about some of these motivations for the university later in our conversation. But, uh, the university recognises the need for these functions. Um, in Canada, how do we move the needle along?

Um, what we're starting to see is not just more universities, um, and research organisations, but we're seeing funders, we're seeing, uh, health charities, we're seeing, um, we've got a couple of, uh, um, the Research Impact Canada members who are doing work with, um, veterans and families, right? So, and there w- so knowledge mobilisation jobs are, are becoming more, um...

We're seeing more of these jobs being posted, which I think, and I think that's a, um, that's, uh, the direct res- response to the advocacy that Research Impact Canada has been doing. Mm-hmm. And, um, in fact, we- there's just another job I saw posted this morning from Toronto Metropolitan University hiring a knowledge mobilisation and Research Impact Canada m- um, sorry, knowledge mobilisation and research impact manager is the, is the position.

So, um, I think the, uh, I think institutions especially, it's especially heartening in these resource-constrained environments that institutions nonetheless see the value of these positions.

the university story in the UK. Uh, and I think we'd be in a worse position now than we, uh, than we are. Yeah. We are in a bad position, but we'd be in an even worse one if we didn't have that data. Um-

Um, the, the RE- the RE- the, the REF has been really, it's created our sector. It has created our jobs- Mm-hmm ... um, essentially. REF has put impact int- on the, um, research ecosystem agenda, right? And so REF has also created those 7,000-ish case studies are incredible sources of, of scholarship and of research now.

Mm-hmm. Like, we're learning more about, um, research when, um, or and impact because of those case studies. Uh, there's a lot of things if I was to design a research impact assessment programme- Well, in fact, we do have a, um, in Canada, I would do it differently. And, and in Research Impact Canada, we have taken the REF impact case study, and we've made adjustments to it to make it more Canadian-like- Mm-hmm

and more democratising knowledge, putting the voice of the- Mm-hmm ... partners and, and users into the case study, uh, making it less university centric. So there's things like that. And I wouldn't tie money to the exercise. Um, money is a great motivator, but it- Mm-hmm ... also drives unintended consequences.

David Phipps 00:19:55 Right. So, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we're starting to go down a rabbit hole that I don't think you and I need to go down.

Lots of their eyes went to Canada, and I kind of went, "Why is that? What is, what is it about Canada? What is it that, uh, seems to be the secret sauce there that people are finding really valuable?" Um, so therefore I kind of, y- you know, that's the next question really. You know, what, what is it about Ca- the Canadian system?

What is it about the things you're involved with in Research Impact Canada? You've mentioned that organisation about. So te- tell me a little bit about, you know, what's the, what's the sector like? Why did it create this, um, this wonderful resource that people have come and learnt from?

Uh, as we-- The motivations for impact in Canada are fundamentally different than in the UK because we don't have that assessment, right? And this is how Julie Bayley and I first, um, started collaborating because recognising that, um, because of the REF, that, um, the UK thinks about impact as something that you need to describe, right?

And, um, it's a, it's what has happened. In, um, Canada, we think of impact as something of how, something we want to make. So if the UK is a what country and Canada is a how country, you know, if you think of a Venn diagram, the third bubble of that is who are the people that do this work. So the intersection of knowing how to create impact, knowing what you must, um, uh, what you can, uh, assess, and who, what are the skills of the people you need to do this, that intersection is research impact literacy, and that's how Julie and I first started our collaboration.

Um, we care about assessment in Canada, but we do assessment not to... There's no money attached. It's not a REF. Um, so it-- and it's not so much about accountability, but it's more about what we call analysis, about learning. Mm-hmm. We, we assess impact to know if we've done a good job, and then to learn how to do that better, and that job is making impact.

So you can't-- assessing and, and making impact and assessing impact are intimately connected. But we assess for impact because we want to learn how to do it better.

David Phipps 00:22:34 Right? We're not doing impact for, um, for, um, to, to get more money out of, out of a system. Um- We're not trying to tell a better story to get more money.

It was just tech transfer. It started in 1995, and the f- uh, the fourth round was in 2005, and York University collaborated with the University of Victoria. Different parts of the country, both provincial capitals, neither had medical schools.

David Phipps 00:23:27 And so, uh, we collaborated to say, and we wrote to this tech transfer a- competition, "Nice you wanna fund tech transfer.

Uh, 2010 we invited four institutions to become members of our two university network. Geographical coverage is important for all of our countries, but also French language capacity is important in Canada. Mm. So we invited a Quebec institution. 2012 we held an open call, got four new members, and, um, and so that took us up to 10, and, um, we've just grown since then.

Um, and we've grown from there. Now we've got a college, a technical college, we've got four hospitals, we've got some funders and some research us- user organisations, and it's really ... r- Research Impact Canada now is really representative of the diversity of the research enterprise in Canada. And so, um, our job is to

We are a member-driven community of practice, so we are driven by the needs of members. Our job is to share, uh, create an environment where universities can share and learn about how better to do research impact and how to assess, um, the impacts of research. Uh, and in- interestingly, 'cause it's different than some of the other, um, networks like UPEN and ARIS, uh, UPEN (Universities Policy Engagement Network) in the UK, ARIS (Advancing Research Impact in Society) in the States, uh, we are exclusively professional staff-

David Phipps 00:25:37 active in the network. We, we, we do not have the researchers who are wanting to do impact in their research. We're professional staff who then go back to our institutions to help that researcher who wants to do impact in their research. So by, by building capacity of professional staff, we build the capacity of the institution.

So our members are, um, institutional. I, I think that, um, ARIS, Advancing Research Impact in Society, in the States has something like 1,200 members. Mm. We have 47, but they're all institutions. So 46. We have 46, and they're all institutions, um, who are paying a membership fee every year. That's unique amongst the networks.

We are not externally funded. We're funded by our members. Um, and so it's, um, it's unique in that we build capacity professional staff who then come back to our institutions, and then help our researchers and students and their partners.

David Phipps 00:26:33 We got three. Yeah. Three. We got Brighton, and, uh, Bristol, and LSBU, London South Bank.

David Phipps 00:26:40 Yeah.

David Phipps 00:26:50 Um, so it has absolutely... What we've, what we in Canada have learned from the UK is, um, learning about the REF stu- studying- Mm

the REF, adapting what we, what we wish to from the REF for our own purposes. That's been very valuable, and the UK members have been helpful putting in, uh, putting, um, uh, putting, um, some perspective on that. Uh, I'd say the motivation is twofold. Well, it's interesting. Uh, we did have a fourth university that I won't name, but that fourth university, when I said, "Okay, well, now we've got four universities, um, we could now have some, um, impact work on your time zone because-" Mm.

You know? Mm. Uh, it's always dinner time for, for our UK members- Yeah ... whenever we do anything, um, at lunchtime in Canada. Um, and, uh, you know, I... And the comment I got back was, "Well, we're here to learn what you do. We can talk to the UK members anytime we want." Right? So it's, it's really the motivation for them is, is, uh, more on the international engagement.

Um, but, but that kind of made me realise that everything, everything I kinda know about has that contextual lens, you know, that, uh, UK contextual lens. So when they were ... When I was kind of like, "Can you do a session on impact?" It was kind of like, well, how is that conceived elsewhere? Mm-hmm. How is that, how is that, you know

What, what elements is it f- Is it, does it feed into assessment? Does it feed into grants? Does it f- Yeah How are the universities helping to achieve this? You know, what kind of structures do they have? You know, do they, do they have people like me? Do they have people like you? You know, tho- those sorts of questions kind of went, I actually don't know the answers- Yeah

to much of those.

Ged Hall 00:29:11 Mm.

where we're, we're content agnostic, right? We're, um... And so, um, it, I've, we've now got a global conversation amongst those networks. So there's, um, UPEN in the UK, ARIS in the States, Research Impact Canada. Um, Europe is, uh, represented by the ENLIGHT group of universities. Yes. I think there's 11, maybe 13 of those.

Vincula is a network of 22 Chilean universities.

David Phipps 00:29:42 No money, and they, but they've did this wonderful, created a wonderful, um, network, um, all at the policy interface. So all- Mm ... working to, um, do work with their Congress, their federal government. Uh, there's the Africa Research and Impact Network. Um, and, uh, there's a group, um, there's a number of networks in Australia, but one that we're working with is the, um, Australia Policy...

Oh God, forgive me, Anthony. I can't remember the whole Australian one. And then there's a network, um, IPEN is the Impact, uh, Policy and Evaluation Network of the seven Crown Research institutes in New Zealand.

David Phipps 00:30:19 Right? So, you know, there's, there's, um... And, and all of them very, n- uh, none of us except the UK have a, an impact, have a REF, right?

Mm-hmm. So the rest of us are coming together about how do we do this with our institutions, how do we do this with our researchers? But all the questions you raised, do you have an assessment system? What's your funding like? You know, um, and, uh, and, and what kind of sta- what does the staff makeup look like?

Those are all different, um, around the world. And, uh, it is inter- It's a, one of the ch- joys that I have is learning about- Yeah ... how the Americans do it, how the UK do it, you know? And, uh, so, um, this is what your podcast is also doing, is learning, um... You've had Tamika from Australia, you've got me from Canada, right?

Getting these different perspectives.

David Phipps 00:31:17 okay ...

So it was kind of like, "Tell me about that." You know? Yeah. "What's it like working there? What's research culture like?" Uh, you know, and interestingly you were saying because we don't have a historic system, everything is designed rather than organically-

Ged Hall 00:31:34 growing. Um- Mm-hmm ... so, but, but that feels quite, um, uh- I think, uh, don't think he'd be upset about this, but almost interventionist by the, by the government.

Yeah. Like, we want it to be like this.

Right, and so anywhere Jonathan goes, impact is gonna follow. Yes. Right? And so it'll be interesting to watch his trajectory at KAUST and see, see where his, um, in- his input can help, um, can, can do this work. Um, 'cause the, the Middle East is, uh, lots of tech transfer in the Middle East, for sure. Yeah. But, um, this more focus on non-commercial pathways to impact is it'll be interesting to see where that comes.

David Phipps 00:32:58 Uh, I think we rock, I'll tell you that. And it's, it's not just because, um, they pay my salary. I truly think that York University is, um, among the leaders of this in Canada, and I'll tell you why. It's not just because of the knowledge mobilisation unit. Uh, we do a great job, but, um, our current, uh, university academic plan, that is the top level plan for the university, it's got a section on research, as all of our plans do- Mm-hmm

but it's got... I, I wrote it down 'cause I wanna read it to you. "As change accelerates around us, we aim to be more responsive to our communities by generating critical knowledge in works of art, ideas, and innovations that engage multiple perspectives while propelling Ontario as a global knowledge economy leader."

That's a statement in our university academic plan. This responsive to communities is making an impact in society. Global knowledge economy leader is an impact on the economy. So it's, we've got it in our university academic plan. We have... In Canada, we have a tenure and promotion system. Mm-hmm. And, uh, our policy on tenure promotion that describes, um, the professional contributions, it's enabling of artistic expressions, public scholarship, community-based research.

So we've got an enabling policy. Um, the... And it's also journal articles if you want to hang your hat on there- Mm-hmm ... as most of us do. So we have a policy, and I'll tell you what's just come up, and this is why it's a sustainable... I see impact as being sustained as a goal of the university, is we've got an integrated resource plan.

It's how we report annually, each division, on the successes that we're making, and a new metric for research is research value stories.

David Phipps 00:34:33 I can't tell you what that means because it was only, it was only three weeks ago that I first saw these, and we're actively talking, um, now what, what does a research value story look like.

Mm-hmm. Um, it's gonna be, um, not as, um, robust as an impact case study.

David Phipps 00:34:50 But, um, but w- so the, the university truly from the very top level planning documents down to the, the indicators of progress at the divisional levels, um, impact is there

all its branches and, uh, uh, and, and elements. And-

Ged Hall 00:35:23 Mm.

Mobilisation

Exchange Grants.

So they're small $6,000 grants. Um- Yeah ... and we make about 20, um, awards a year for- Mm ... um, seceding knowledge mobilisation activities, and we've got the President's Research Impact Award. It's an award, um, it's part of a comprehensive suite of research awards, but, um, the, the... We just had the awards ceremony a couple weeks ago.

Kerry Kawakami from the Faculty of Health, her work is around, um, identity and inequality, and her work's been cited in multiple cases by the US Supreme Court, right? So- That's ... um, and so she won. She was the... a winner of the President's Research Impact Award, um, just a couple weeks ago. So, uh, it's in our policies, and that's hugely important, so it's not just a marginal activity off someone's desk.

It's being resourced, and it's being recognised and rewarded, and I think those are the elements. That's what you need to make a robust impact culture at the university

um, called Impact Acceleration Awards that- Yeah ... enables those s- similar types of projects. But it's interesting that, um, you know, most of that is external money that is enabling that. I would wonder how much would be pulled together if they completely disappeared and it was- Yeah ... left to the institution.

'Cause I'm assuming, um, the money you were talking about there was institutional money being-

Mm. Um, and we have absolutely zero money supporting kn- knowledge mobilisation, external money. So it's work that we are doing, um, work that we're doing, um, uh, for, uh, by, by the institution for the institution.

'cause, uh,

Ged Hall 00:37:40 We- yeah. And, uh, it's ramping up with the emails I'm sure. I'm sure they all started flying in now that, uh- Yes ... now that the day's started in, in Canada and, uh, e- early afternoon for me. Mm-hmm. So we'll start, we'll start wrapping up. Now, this question is usually, um, the hardest one for, for most people.

Most people have gone, "Do I really have to just try and narrow it down?" So people have kind of, people have kind of bent the rules a little bit over time 'cause I used to ask for just one name here. But, um- Ah, that's tough, yeah ... yeah, yeah. But, uh, but, um, just, just to be kind to you, you know, and it- You're, you're on my list of impact heroes.

What, what I'd love to see, um, to see this happening with this, with this interview series is that I start interviewing people I don't know- Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah ... and people I haven't come across. So that was the reason for kind of having this question. So it's in terms of who are your impact heroes? Now, um, so because people have negotiated with me, I'll, I'll allow you to go with three.

Um, but because you've collaborated with, uh, with Julie so long, she cannot be one. Um, and she wasn't allowed to name you, although she did talk about you quite a little bit.

Ged Hall 00:39:05 yes. Yes, you have already. So- So fire away ...

Yes. I am not going to choose a Canadian because it'd be like asking, um, someone to name their favourite child, you know? And, uh, so I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do, I'm not gonna do it in Canada. Um, three. First one, uh, Susan Renoe at the University of Missouri. She's my counterpart at the American Network Advancing Research Impacts in Society.

She's doing amazing work. She's secured, uh, lots of external funds for this. She is also researching this work as well. Mm-hmm. Um, and amazing work. She's creating training. She's building cultures of research impact in the r- in the very uncertain environment that the United States finds itself in today, right?

Uh, so she's doing amazing work, and she's doing amazing work in that environment. Mm-hmm. So, um, so kudos to you, Susan. Um, I've also already mentioned Vincula from Chile, so my second impact hero is Francisca Re- um, Francisca Reyes from, uh, Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile. I think I pronounced that right.

And my last one, um- Wade Kelly. He's at Deakin University in Australia. I'm gonna say he's a writer to watch. I'm-- We've been doing some writing together, and I am so impressed at how he says so much with so few words. I've just got a couple of things that, that I've read. He said he, he was doing a presentation to, um, in Europe to, to, um, EARMA, and I was watching it, and he said, "Impact isn't something researchers deliver.

It is something that systems produce when they're resourced appropriately." i.e. we should not be looking at just researchers to produce impact, but the systems need to support that impact. But he says it in so few words. The second one, I just read it the other day, it's, um, a question, "Is the institution accountable for the conditions of impact it generates, not only the impact that it claims?"

And this is talking about, you know, how institutions love to claim impact but not necessarily invest and support it.

David Phipps 00:41:43 And so Wade has got this wonderful way of writing, saying so much with so few words. So Wade Kelly is my third, um- Yeah ... impact hero.

David Phipps 00:41:59 There's too many, too, too many Canadians to choose from.

David Phipps 00:42:08 you're right ... I do- He is Canadian.

David Phipps 00:42:09 Canadian. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, you're right. He grew up in a small town outside of Edmonton.

David Phipps 00:42:14 right.

Yep.

He is amazing.

Ged Hall 00:42:40 David, thank you so much for your time today. Um, you delivered on your, uh, on your goal for making me laugh. Um- Yes ... the, uh, the thank God we don't have a ref, um, was- ... was, uh, yeah, you ... I think, I think that's kind of a therapy laugh, isn't it? Kind of like, you know.

Ged Hall 00:43:01 Yes. Absolutely. And I'd personally like to thank you actually for all the work that I've read of yours over the years. Um, it's, uh ... You know, sometimes it, uh, it feels like you're just reaching out and giving me the right answer, um, the answer I need right at that time. Um, you know, I, I think back to that, uh, when you did a lot more on Twitter when it was a nice place-

it, uh, it was part of your, um, it was part of your banner, that lovely diagram. That was one of the- Ah, yeah. Yeah. That was one of the, uh, amazing things. Oh, yeah. I'll put a link to that paper in the, um, in the show notes as well, so.

Ged Hall 00:43:42 Yes. That's the one.

Ged Hall 00:43:44 Yeah. Which, which a- absolutely wound up in quite a number of, um, of presentations at the, around that time- Ah

and training courses that I was doing. So- Amazing ... so thank you so much for that. Um, you know, uh, when, when I interviewed Vicky she said, "You've used my papers," and I was like, "Yes, of course." Of course. Of course, Vicky. Yes, we have. Yes.

So, um- So thank you for all of those. Thank you for your, um, for all that help, all those generous, uh, insights, uh, in guiding me on my journey in this, uh, complex and, and really intriguing landscape of research impact. It's fascinating. So can I ask you to say goodbye to our listeners and, uh, and offer them whatever thoughts you want to wrap up with?

Ged Hall 00:45:03 And it's a very generous network. If you're new to it, reach in. You will only find wonderful people.

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