In our Research Culture Uncovered conversations we are asking what is Research Culture and why does it matter? In this episode we welcome new host, Dr Emily Ennis, to the team. We get to hear more about Emily before she hosts episodes on her specialist topics.

Emily shares her background in research culture and her role as the Research Culture Manager at the University of Leeds, which includes leading the research culture team and overseeing evaluation and strategy. She elaborates on her background, shares her interests outside of work, and talks about her plans for future podcast episodes.

Topics include:

1. Emily's role and responsibilities at the University of Leeds
2. Getting to know Emily with more on her hobbies and interests
3. Emily's passion for Research Culture
4. The challenges Emily identifies in research and academia
5. What Emily is working on and what she will be doing
6. How Emily views collaboration and competition in Research Culture

What will Emily be covering in her upcoming episodes:

1. Thought-provoking conversations on the evaluation of Research Culture
2. Measuring the impact of research culture improvements while emphasising the importance of collaboration within the higher education sector

Links for this episode:

1. Emily's previous episode
2. Research Excellence Framework
3. SPRE: Strategy, People and Research Environment

All of our episodes can be accessed via the following playlists:

1. Research Impact with Ged Hall (follow Ged on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
2. Research Impact Heroes with Ged Hall
3. Open Research with Nick Sheppard (follow Nick on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
4. Research Careers with Ruth Winden (follow Ruth on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
5. Research talent management
6. Meet the Research Culturositists with Emma Spary (follow Emma on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
7. Research co-production
8. Research evaluation
9. Research leadership
10. Research professionals
11. Academic failure with Taryn Bell (follow Taryn on Bluesky and LinkedIn)

Follow us on Bluesky: @researcherdevleeds.bsky.social (new episodes are announced here), @openresleeds.bsky.social, @researchcultureuol.bsky.social

Connect to us on LinkedIn: @ResearchUncoveredPodcast (new episodes are announced here)

If you would like to contribute to a podcast episode get in touch: researcherdevelopment@leeds.ac.uk

Intro: Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Emma: Hi, it's Emma and welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast.

For those of you that haven't listened to one of my episodes before, I lead the researcher development and research culture team at the University of Leeds. This episode is slightly different. For those of you that listened in to our Christmas episode, you'll have heard me share news that the podcast team was growing and we would be welcoming a new host.

And for those of you that haven't listened to it, why not? It's definitely worth listening in on. So, as I mentioned, we're introducing a new host today. Dr. Emily Ennis is joining the podcast team. So this is a chance to learn a little bit more about Emily, her role at the university, her interests, and what she will be bringing to the podcast.

So I'm gonna jump straight in with the first question and ask Emily to give us a quick introduction to herself, the role that she has at the University of Leeds, and a teaser for what we might have in store.

Emily: Oh, a teaser. A teaser. That, that's definitely, uh, maybe more than I can, I can manage. But, um, hi everyone.

Um, I'm Emily. I'm the research culture manager at the University of Leeds. I have oversight of all research culture activity at Leeds, essentially. I bring in sector wide best practice through external networks and and previous experience to ensure we build an equitable and supportive research culture at Leeds that is responsive to our unique research communities.

Um, research culture and research communities look different, not only different institutions, but also between different schools, divisions, disciplines, and things like that. So a lot of my job involves, um, kind of leading on research culture, operational decision making, so things like budgets, you gross, I know.

Um, and also on some of the evaluation of our activities. So we have a couple of work streams within the research culture team, one of which is around evaluation for research culture activities. Um, so I had that one up. And then another one, um, that I lead is around, um. Research culture for the REF So what used to be people, culture and environment, but what is now strategy people and research environment.

Um, I also manage the research culture team. Um, so this means making sure that they're able and empowered to deliver their domain specific support to stakeholders across the university and beyond. Um, this quite often involves building relationships with researchers and research enablers across the university to better understand the diverse research cultures that we have here, and also ensuring members of the research culture team can be deployed effectively to ensure wide reaching and profound impacts across the institution.

Emma: Thank you very much. And the little spoilers and and teasers were in there were the mention of the word evaluation measure and impact, but we'll come back to that. So we're gonna move slightly away from work now and in our research culture Uncovered podcast, meet the Host episodes. We do have a bit of a structure, so we would like to find out a little bit more about you as one of our hosts outside of work.

So is there an interesting fact about yourself that isn't work related?

Emily: So I've been thinking about this a little bit and, and I do think Fact is, is really pushing it. I think I just have lots of things that I do. Um, so I think what, how I'm going to define myself as a bit of a, a maker and a bit of a linguist, um, just to kind of a, a sense of what I do.

So I spend a lot of my time, um, knitting, embroidering. Uh, doing baking, things like that. I recently knitted a matching set of Fair Isle sweaters for my sister, her partner, and my baby nephew for Christmas. Um, my hands were completely destroyed at the end of it, but it was very cute and the pictures are very good.

Um, and my hearing is getting worse. So I'm kind of trying to jump the, jump the shark a little bit on that and just try and make sure I've got a backup plan if I suddenly can't hear, uh, other people. Um. But you may hear me talk a little bit in, in some of my podcasts, and indeed, if, if you've heard me, uh, talk at conferences or in blogs or on LinkedIn and things like that, you'll hear me talk a little bit about, um, kind of disability is one of the things that we look at as a, as a lens for research culture.

Um, and I do bring my own experiences of a disability, not only in terms of being hard of hearing, but other kind of chronic illness stuff into that. Maybe that's not necessarily a fun fact about me, but it, it's, it's something that will inform the work that I do and is, is kind of about me as a bigger picture.

Um, I guess the final thing to, to note, um, is around just my interest in absolute. Trash. Um, you know, research culture can seem quite, uh, cerebral subjects, but that doesn't mean, um, you know, that when I'm kind of reading and doing all of these kind of maker activities and, uh, or, or kind of doing my, my day-to-day job that I don't just also love talking about absolute garbage on the telly.

And, um, one of my big, kind of favorite topics of interest is just. Yeah, Seminole pop moments, pop culture moments from the, the, the nineties and the noughties. Um, and I've mentioned in the past, and I'll mention again here, always love to talk about Mr. Blobby. Um, really, really like Mr. Blobby, I think. Um, it's just one of these kind of weird British cultural icons that can't be replicated.

Um, so I just find it very fascinating. Maybe there's something in there about how culture is created and who hot. Holds culture and who, who kind of creates culture. Um, but yeah, please do talk to me about trashy TV shows. Always love to hear about that. And yeah, tell me about the most unhinged moments you remember from Big Brother.

I think that's also really valid and interesting. So yeah, just because I do, um, kind of strategic thinky kind of intellectual work doesn't mean that I don't also want to hear about just the absolute rubbish that people consume.

Emma: Brilliant. Thank you very much. And I'm pretty certain our listeners were not ex expecting to hear Mr.

Blobby when they tuned into this, uh, into this episode. Uh, so I am thinking when are we having Mr. Blobby episode in French at some point, um, keep listening listeners. It, it will be on its way. So we've already established that you are the research culture manager at the University of Leeds, and I know this is a role that you are.

Very passionate about. Um, but what is it that really interests you about this area of work? And remember, we've only got 20 minutes and I know that this is probably quite a long list.

Emily: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's an enormous list and I think if you ask me day to day, it would probably change in terms of like what I've found the, uh, kind of to be, uh, you know, empowering that day and what I found to be disempowering that day.

Um, but I will try and give a kind of broad brush strokes for, for what I most enjoy about this role. Um. So I came to this, uh, role, I guess in quite a circuitous way. So I, uh, I did a PhD in English literature, uh, a while ago now, and I did a couple of postdocs. So I, I was an academic, um, but then I went through a period of ill health, um, and I knew that my health wasn't necessarily gonna recover.

Um, and just basically. Found that academia as it was just felt fundamentally incompatible with, with the, you know, who I was at that particular moment. So I made a slight pivot into. Kind of research ops and research management, uh, particularly roles, um, that were based on, uh, based around the REF, um, and impact the impact component of the REF as well.

Um, so I was really interested in how research benefited the wider society and the way in which research called, uh, research. Was conducted and the research culture around that. Um, so, uh, I'd already really been interested in research culture before this role was advertised because I was working a lot with researchers, um, and trying to understand, yeah, what was the kind of bigger fabric of, of research that their research contributed to.

Um, so yeah, I was already interested in research culture before this role was advertised, and I even appeared as a guest on this podcast many, many years ago. Um, but when I saw this role, I basically realized two things. Firstly, that this role might enable me to, um, help fix or to address some of the things I'd found really challenging when I was AC in academia.

Um, and secondly, that I felt that I could maybe use my skills from. Impact evaluation and research ops to understand the impacts of research culture as well as to, um, kind of, um, enhance and improve research cultures that existed. So a lot of my day-to-day draws on my experiences as a research manager and there's a lot of operational detail.

In my job. Uh, but for me, um, maybe because of where I am in my career stage or just by virtue of my experiences, um, operational detail is also what's really likely for me to transform research culture. So I feel like having that, that background is really, really essential, um, especially with the sector as it is, um, having a detailed understanding of how research is conducted, how finances work, how HR works, and then how to strategically deploy a team of specialists.

It's just really, really crucial. So, um, I am increasingly interested in bringing, um, in evaluation activities and, and bringing in that evaluation background to understand the, uh, mechanisms and measurement of change in universities. Um, uh, but I do see the majority of that change happening essentially through operational.

Rather than strategic input, because ultimately all strategies require operational delivery. Um, it change doesn't happen because someone at the top says, so change happens because people, um, put boots on the ground and, and really enact those kind of strategies and implementation plans. So for me, the most interesting thing about this role is understanding how the finer detail of research and university operations contributes to culture, um, and how cultured.

Defines that operational detail in a kind of symbiosis. Um, and then of course, I'm fascinated by how or if we can even really measure the interventions, um, into that delicate ecosystem, I guess.

Emma: Brilliant. Thank you very much. Um, and Emily mentioned there that she was on a previous episode, so I'll make sure that I put a link in the show notes and also for some of the acronyms I'll put a link in for REF the Research excellence framework and SPRE, the Strategy people and research environment as well.

So you've mentioned a couple of the challenges that you faced when you started your career, and this wouldn't be the research culture uncovered podcast if we didn't. Dig into some of those challenges in a bit more detail, but what do you think are the biggest challenges facing our researchers, our research community, or even the sector at the moment?

Emily: So I think, I mean, if you'd asked me this question two years ago, I think I'd have given you a slightly different answer because I think right now we're all just kind of fighting. To exist and, and fighting to survive not only as research culture change makers, but as research culture teams and, and institutions even.

So we, we are really kind of facing a big existential threat and it's really, really hard to not just see that as, as the biggest challenge. Um, but I will say there's kind of a nuance to that for me. So I think. Pre economic crisis, pre kind of concerns around the, the sustainability of the sector. I would've been really worried about a general kind of reluctance for genuine change.

Um, so one of the things I experienced as an academic was this idea that, um, you know, the hierarchy exists within academia for a reason that it's there as a kind of, uh, I guess a meritocracy that you, you know, you, you. The best rises to the top and you, you just kind of do, you just keep toiling away and keep trying to be the best and then, you know, you'll get to the top.

But I just didn't necessarily find that that was the case. And a lot of very, um, fantastic researchers were exiting, um, not only just at the kind of bottom of the, of the hierarchy, you know, the kind of early career stage level, but at mid and senior career stage level as well. And I do think that that kind of, um, well we, this is just how things have always been done, has.

Has always been a real challenge to kind of lasting cultural change within the sector. So I think pre economic crisis, that would've been the one thing that I was most worried about, which is how do we change the mindset? How do we make it clear that we're not necessarily saying that you can't still be good at your job, but we're just asking for people to kind of slightly rethink some of the structures that are quite uncomfortable and that can actually hold people, um, in uncomfortable places and keep them stuck, but also, um, force people out of them even when they are.

They are good. Like I don't think it has necessarily functioned as a meritocracy in the way that people think that it has. Um, so that would've been my answer, I guess pre kind of financial crisis. But I think now that we are facing kinda economic challenges as a sector, I think. My fear is that, um, we will lean into that, that that kind of previous way of working even more.

So I think the original point still stands. We, you know, my big fear is that we're not gonna be bold enough as part of our kind of navigation through a financial crisis to make sure that we're embedding lasting cultural change as part of that navigation through that financial situation. Um, so I kind of see this as a great opportunity where we are in terms of economic challenges to ensure that research leaders make really bold decisions about, um, kind of making that we sure that we embed inclusive research cultures as part of the changes that we might make to university structures or the changes that we might make to, to research priorities and things like that.

So, um. I think that that is the biggest challenge here is to kind of lead boldly and to make sure that research culture change happens as part of this kind of navigation through the, the financial crisis. But what I will say is that things like removing the phrasing research culture from the REF, from the research excellence framework, um, is going to pose a risk to making.

Making sure or enabling research leaders and university leaders to, to make those bold decisions. I think it will be easy for them to say, okay, well research culture doesn't exist in, in, in word only. I will say in the REF, and therefore I don't need to actually make decisions. That, that ensures that research culture can thrive, um, in the next kind of iteration of the sector.

So I will say that it's a big challenge and I don't think that that challenge, that, that kind of enablement to, um, to make bold decisions in financial crisis, I don't think that's happening or being enabled by the, the sector generally. I think things like the ref are actually going to keep us stuck rather than enable us to move into a different space.

Emma: Thank you very much. Um, so our listeners will already know about the work that we do at leads or we're trying to do at le. We certainly haven't got it all sorted out yet, um, but we do have quite a lot going on. From your perspective, leading the team, what do you think is the most exciting thing that you're working on at the moment or that you haven't started yet but are excited to get started on?

Emily: Yes, I'll say definitely excited to get started on. So one of the things I really wanted to do when I first started this role was, um, develop a kind of way of evaluating activities that we'd done at Leeds, uh, research cultural activities that we've done at Leeds. Um, and then just the role has been incredibly busy.

And to kind of use their responses to, to build a stronger evaluation framework so we can evaluate research cultural activities that leads, and a lot of those activities will be stuff that we've initiated or that we've funded, but there'll also be other stuff that's, that's been going on. You know, we're not necessarily wedded to it just being interventions that, that we've played a role in.

So yeah, that will be something that we're, we're looking at. Um. Kind of over the next 12 months. Um, in order to do that work, we are getting, well, we're in the process of getting ethical approval and so when that also comes through, we'll also be able to do some really kind of deep dives into pre-existing data that we've got as well.

So we have a data analyst in the team, um, who, um, leads on a lot of quantitative data that we have at leads. Um, but he and I are gonna be working together to kind of, I guess, paint a picture of, of just our distance traveled, I guess, as an institution. Um, which I think will be really interesting though. Um, I guess I might have my own.

Suspicions about whether or not we can really measure it, um, and indeed what we're even looking for in the first place. So I think it will be just a really exciting process, not only of kind of being able to take a step back and be really reflective and think, oh wow, okay, look at what we've done in the past, you know, four or five years.

That's amazing. But then also go, oh, okay, not sure we're quite measuring what we think we're measuring and, um. I do think, you know, one of the things that has come out of the, the discourse around research culture for, for the REF is around how do we even measure this thing. Uh, this thing is just this big, uh, blob of stuff.

Um, and I think research culture is generally. A feeling for lots of people. Um, and certainly within my team there's different feelings around what research culture change looks like. So I think it's going to throw up lots of really interesting questions that, um, I don't think is necessarily our responsibility as an institution to answer, but is um, once we have a sense of what we can measure and a sense of some of the questions that are emerging from that, it's gonna be a really great opportunity to back that back to the, to the sector as well.

Um, and I do kind of work quite closely with other. Um, kind of my counterparts across the sector. Um, and we kind of go all kind of going through similar processes at the same time, at the moment, trying to work out, can we even measure this? We really need to for the REF So like, you know, what, what are we looking for?

Emma: So I've got two questions. One quick one, not so quick. Um, the first one, obviously, um, nearly everything we develop or create at leads we share openly with the sector. So see, do you see that framework being part of that offer as well? And the second part is, um, the mention of collaboration across the sector.

One of the things that I'm getting more and more worried about is that with REF and Spree, it's going to encourage institutions to fall back in on themselves, and that collaborative approach that I think we have now might actually stop at some point. Do you have a view on that?

Emily: I do, and I would say it's quite an emerging view or an evolving view, I guess I should say.

And even just being able to have a conversation with someone else and say, how are you like sending books in, like how are you even getting hold of the books? And everyone had a different process and so it was really, really useful for. You know, kind of operational detail to just keep sharing, right, right up until the day.

And ultimately from an operational perspective, I've got no skin in the game. Um, you know, I am not a subject area leader. I do not need to bring in a certain amount of, of income, which obviously the, that, that's what the REF defines. And so. There's this weird tension in terms of kind of the people who lead operationally really need to share because there's so much process here around REF, so much kind of protocol and, and kind of, yeah.

Um, operational detail that it's kind of unavoidable that we share, but REF is fundamentally. A competition when it comes to how, you know, government money is essentially split across institutions and across disciplines. So it's very, very hard then to have that kind of really keen need for operational sharing compared to a subject leader, you know, a a, a, a unit leader who is, you know, kind of ultimately responsible for bringing in income to their area.

And that income is a finite resource, so. It's really complicated. I guess, you know, from my perspective, I'm having conversations in kind of consortium meeting where we're saying, okay, well we're sharing now, but you know, when does the sharing stop? And I would like it to never stop. Um, but then like I say, I've, I've got relatively little skin in the game, so I would love to share the evaluation framework that we develop.

I think that that would be really useful because I think it's important not to duplicate effort, especially during. As I've talked about quite extensively, you know, a financial crisis, I don't want to be doing something and learning something, um, including, you know, learning when something goes wrong and then not sharing that with another institution, and then they spend a lot of time, money, and energy.

Doing the exactly same thing and getting the exact same, you know, results, IE it going wrong, and I could have just told them to not do it in the first place. So, um, I still, at the moment, I see lots and lots of sharing, particularly at that operational level. I've seen people share frameworks, um, between institutions and replicate them and amend them locally, you know, for their own community.

I would love that to happen, but like I say, you know, I'm here too. Support research culture and to support people going into the REF in terms of how they talk about research culture. Um, and I would like research culture activity generally, not just for REF to feel like a bit of a, I guess like a, an antidote to some of the competition of REF that we are here to provide, not extract information, but I also think that ultimately I, I, I'm not responsible for bringing in.

This income to the institution. Um, so I've just got a very different perspective on it. So I just, all I can think about is I just want to offer research, culture, activity, my expertise, my team as that kind of antidote to the extractive and quite competitive nature of the REF But I don't think we'll ever be able to change the fact that the REF is competitive and extractive.

Emma: Thank you very much. Um, we are almost up to time listeners, um, but we need to find out what Emily is going to be bringing to the podcast. So you've probably got some ideas already based on what she's introduced in this episode, but Emily, what can our listeners expect from the episodes that you will be posting?

Emily: Yeah, so there's probably not much of a surprise that, um, one of the big things I'll be focusing on is essentially evaluation. Um, but not just evaluation in terms of what are the metrics that we can use, but actually what does change look like? So, I know I've already said that, you know, a lot of people in my team have different thoughts on what change looks like.

We, um, we do have a research culture strategy and implementation plan leads, and when you look at that. We've actually accomplished quite a lot in there. A lot of metrics have been, you know, ticked off and that's wonderful. But in doing all of that work, we just uncovered a whole load of other stuff that that needs our attention.

Um, and so I guess for me, that that has really raised this question of what does culture change even look like? Are we doing it? Are we moving in that direction? Um, and so I've already started to have conversations with people across the sector who come to this work with lots of different backgrounds, a lot.

There's a lot of evaluators in my. Type of role as you might expect. But there's also lots of people who, who are doing research culture work, who've got like an activist background or a charity background, and I think they'll all have different ideas of what change looks like. And so I think that's gonna be really profitable.

In having those conversations, not only in terms of, like I said, throwing up, I, uh, new ways of, of doing measurement. And I'll put measurement in, in quotation marks. 'cause I do think measuring re research culture change is really, really difficult. But also kind of getting different perspective from what change even looks like.

So it's not just about having conversations about, um, you know. Can we use this proxy measure or you know, okay, well, you know, we were at 90% of people of research culture at leads. Now we're at 98%. That means a success. But actually kind of posing those questions of what about the 2% and is 98% even a reliable number and what are we even measuring?

So I can't say there's gonna be many answers, but I think there's gonna be lots and lots of questions. Um, and hopefully it will pose, um, quite a useful. Almost reflective, um, moment and culture for people, especially as we go into the REF to people, for people to think about, okay, well I've got quite a bit of flexibility here in terms of how I talk about my research culture, whether it's at unit level or institution level, and people getting people to think about, um.

Not only how they tell the story when it comes to REF, but also thinking about, well, actually what, what do I want my research culture to look like at at Leeds or elsewhere? And therefore, what do I, what do I want to do to change it? And I think that getting people to question what change in culture looks like is really, really important.

Emma: So there you go. Listeners, something for you to look forward to. So I want to take this opportunity to thank Emily, not only for recording this episode, but also for agreeing to join the podcast team and to bring something that we haven't had yet. Um, so we're really looking forward to hearing more about the topics that you're going to be bringing in.

And with that, Emily, I'm gonna hand back to you for the final goodbye.

Emily: Thanks Emma. And yeah, I guess it's both. Hello and goodbye from me and, um, I hope, um. I can bring something new and interesting to, to the podcast team. And yeah, hope that you all enjoy some of the content that I'm gonna be putting out.

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Thanks for listening, and here's to you on your research culture.