In this insightful episode, Dr. Emily Goodall speaks with Dr. James Greenwood-Reeves about how research can be radically reimagined when it’s creative, collaborative, and community-led. Together, they explore how working with drag artists through the “Laws a Drag” network is challenging traditional academic norms and reshaping what research culture can look like.

Key highlights:

1️⃣ Co-production is powerful: Collaboration goes beyond treating participants as research subjects, when drag artists guided the research, it became more ethical and impactful.

2️⃣ Creative methods matter: Arts-based approaches like forum theatre amplify marginalised voices and encourage researchers to reflect on their own roles.

3️⃣ Responsible research: Research that genuinely serves and empowers communities. "Laws a Drag" combines ethical rigor with practical support, producing outcomes that truly matter to the people involved.

4️⃣ Building trust & networks takes work: Lasting change requires time and care. Strong partnerships between academics and artists create enduring cultural and structural impact.

Contact/Resources:

Dr James Greenwood-Reeves university profile.

Laws a Drag Network: A creative, community-led research network focusing on drag artists and the law.

Social Legal Studies Association (SLSA): A UK charity supporting education and research in socio-legal studies through conferences, funding, and annual prizes.

Listen again: Episode 108: The art of being you: Research presentations as your authentic self.

All of our episodes can be accessed via the following playlists: 

• Research Impact with Ged Hall (follow Ged on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
• Research Impact Heroes with Ged Hall
• Open Research with Nick Sheppard (follow Nick on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
• Research Careers with Ruth Winden (follow Ruth on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
• Research talent management
• Meet the Research Culturositists with Emma Spary (follow Emma on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
• Research co-production
• Research evaluation
• Research leadership
• Research professionals
• Academic failure with Taryn Bell (follow Taryn on Bluesky and LinkedIn)

Follow us on Bluesky: @researcherdevleeds.bsky.social (new episodes are announced here), @openresleeds.bsky.social, @researchcultureuol.bsky.social

Connect to us on LinkedIn: @ResearchUncoveredPodcast (new episodes are announced here)

If you would like to contribute to a podcast episode get in touch: researcherdevelopment@leeds.ac.uk

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change Research culture into what you want it to be.

Hello and welcome to Research Culture Uncovered. I'm Emily Goodall, a researcher development consultant and my episodes tend to focus on research ethics, research integrity and responsible research practices. Joining me today is Dr. James Greenwood Reeves, a lecturer in law here at the University of Leeds and joint academic lead for the Laws a Drag Network. Together we will be exploring what creative community led research looks like in practice and why it matters for Research Culture. James, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you ever so much for having me, Emily. It's a joy to be here today.

So, to start with, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your research interests?

So I joined the University of Leeds in 2022. I'm a lecturer in law and in particular I teach on a number of modules like Constitutional Law and Law and Society. In terms of research, my research areas of particular interest are constitutionality and protest, in particular violent protest, but also have recently taken a, took it a turn towards looking at queerness and protest, pride and protest, also more recently, drag and the law. We had the great opportunity in the last couple of years to work with drag artists in creating this network called Laws of Drag, where we research more about how drag artists experience law and injustice in their professional lives and to make sure that research which we do collaborate on together can hopefully lead towards, as they say, pathways to impact, but to create genuine, meaningful change that the artists want to see in the world.

So can you tell us a little bit more about the Laws of Drag Network and how you've incorporated co production methods?

Well, like all great academic ideas, it started with talking with a friend over a bottle of wine. This was my friend and colleague, Dr. Rosie Fox, who is also a lecturer in law at the University of Leeds. We were watching RuPaul's Drag Race and realised, hold on, this is a legal system with RuPaul as judge, jury and executioner? Well, I doubt she would say Judge Judy and Executioner. And it's this kind of camp, queer legal system. And we thought, okay, well this is interesting. Is there much on drag and law? Did a little bit of research and we found that while there are odd bits about drag artists and intellectual property, particularly in the United States, there was really nothing at all about how drug artists experience law in their working lives and certainly nothing in the United Kingdom. And we thought this is Unconscionable, really.

These are by and large marginalized, precariously employed or underemployed individuals. They often work by a self employed. So they're not unionized. They don't have a central kind of basis on which to collectively bargain for, for their rights. They may not necessarily be aware of the legal elements of the injustices that they face if they, for example, aren't paid properly or on time for a contract, or if their image or particular performance is used by someone else, or if they face any form of harassment or discrimination. So we thought, okay, we want to do something about this, want to do research on this. And we started to talk about this in 2022. Friend and colleague previously from the University of Durham, but Now Manchester Metropolitan, Dr.

Joy Twemlow tweeted at us saying, would you like to do a conference at some stage where we do a snatch game with academics, where we get legal academics to do drag and to experience academia through, through this queer lens? And we thought, fantastic, we need to get Joy on board. This is the kind of innovative, backed by queer phenomenology and backed by this research, but which brings joy and curiosity to the project. And then we started to ask around for artists in local area to see whether or not they'd be interested in running some workshops with us. So rather than us saying, well, this is what we want to research, could you please be a participant actually saying, well, what would good research or what would collaboration look like for you? How do we make sure that we're not the ones who are dictating terms? How do we avoid the extractivist, exploitative process of academia where it looks at a community, researches them, puts them back exactly where they found them and publishes accordingly. But how do we develop a network that actually makes sure that the artists are telling us what research they want to see? And so yeah, we've been building on that ever since.

Really, I think that's a really interesting approach. So really bringing them in as a co production and collaboration rather than the kind of participants of research, what do you think makes a kind of co production partnership like that successful?

It takes a lot of work is the first thing. And particularly, you know, the drag artists themselves have working lives. A lot of them have a day job full time or part time, plus the drag work that they do. And we as academics, even if we have research workloaded for us, we are also overworked by, you know, the neoliberal managerial institution. It is what it is. And so one of the things is trying to negotiate Time to gather. And it seems like such a simple thing to say, but it's one of the main obstacles is time and making sure that we can remunerate artists for their time. This means making sure that we can identify pots of funding, whether that's at the school level or the university level or externally, which will actually pay artists and as good hourly rate for their time with us.

Then we need to make sure that we're not telling the artists what we want to research. We need to make sure that the artists telling us that A what it is that they want researched, what specific areas of law or specific areas of injustice, B how they want that to be researched. Do they want this to be done with interviews, focus groups, ethnographies? Do they want this to be done using different methods? C what level of oversight do they want to have in that process? Some artists like the idea of helping to run so certain workshops and certain research methods. And I could probably talk more about how one of our artists in fact has led a forum theatre methodology for us, but other artists are busy or don't particularly want to take this hands on role and would rather have the just the opportunity to review documentation, have their say at relevant parts of the process and make sure that we are being, we're sticking to mission effectively and then finally making sure that the artists have the final say when it comes to outputs. It would be remiss, at least mad at worst if we decided that we as academics were the best place to figure out how to sell our research to the public. These are people who profess, they're the professors at art and creativity and selling an image and branding and, and having a name and a stake and colour and life and joy and queerness. And so making sure that the artists are able to dictate terms when it comes to what outputs we make. That's also tremendously important.

So many things I could follow up there with that answer. I'm going to ask about the forum theatre though. Could you tell us a little bit more about that as a methodology?

This was a methodology that I hadn't even heard of. One of the theatre things about being a classically trained lawyer, you know, law undergrad, then practiced probate law and then did law masters and PhD. You miss the opportunity to learn how other disciplines bring their own methods and ways of knowing and understanding. And I have to say one of the strengths of the University of Leeds, but in particular of a number of colleagues of mine, particularly Joy Twemlow, is the eye opening bravery and Curiosity to say, well, are there other ways of doing things? And we had the great joy of having a artist in one of our first, in fact our first workshop, I think Jean Evans. And Jean is an artist. Their artist name is AJ47. They're part of a drag king duo called Pack in Heat. And as well as being a, you know, a drag artist, Jean is also trained in the form theatre method.

That's that they did, they even did their, I think, university dissertation on Augusta Boal's foreign theatre method. And what form theatre is, is you ask people within an affected community for their experiences of injustice. You canvass them to find out how it is that they experience not necessarily just legal injustice, but social injustices or sections of those. And bowel in the 1970s did this for blind communities, disabled communities, farmers, tenants, people who live under some form of oppression. And after gathering some of those experiences, you write a script, maybe a 10 minute theatre script, which is effectively the worst case scenario. Every form of oppression that could happen happens. It's a, it's a farce and a tragedy. You play that in front of an audience that's predominantly comprised of the relevant stakeholders.

You kind of show to the community the worst case scenario for 10 minutes and then you say, we're going to run this again. And when you see something that you don't like or think that you could do differently, clap your hands or say stop. And you step up and you substitute yourself for someone on stage. And this way you role play in a creative laboratory, effectively problem solving. You use the forum of theatre to develop and identify potential solutions to social problems. And forum theatre has been used in the past in order to be able to do this on a legislative basis and in fact has a kind of sibling methodology which we're also thinking of using in future called legislative theater. And we use this to look into how drag artists experience injustice as research participants. So we didn't jump straight to, okay, well what just injustices do you face in your life? We said, well, one of the first things we need to know is how do we work well together.

So we're going to use a method that's based in theatre, based in, you know, your, your strong house, your, your, your wheelhouse. And we will be in drag. I will be. I was in drag, Rosie was in drag, Joy was in drag. And the director was quite insistent that we should be in drag while we do this. We should experience what it is to be in drag and to perform live in front of people and to workshop a particular script which was based off of how awful universities can be. So Rosie Fox was dressed as a drag king institution who sat on a throne and demanded paperwork and asked endless questions about whether or not you filled in the relevant ethics forms of penny pinching and demanding of everyone's time. And I was the researcher, so somebody who meant well.

I pretended or claimed that I was helping the drag artist. I was replicating all of the evils of the institution, whether that was cutting people mid sentence or using jargon that the artists don't know and alienates them or breaking promises to them in terms of how we're going to do outputs. And we use that to develop some really good kind of counters and new ways of working so that for future research projects we can avoid some of those problems or at least identify and mitigate them and be more aware of the ways in which in academia we can replicate despite ourselves, the injustices that the artists face. Helping to build that trust, helping to maintain that dialogue and get a better understanding as well through being in theatre, what it is like to be a performer who is subject to these forms.

Of oppression, such a creative way of doing it. How did you build that trust and ensure that participants felt safe so they could contribute to that type of methodology in a really meaningful way, Especially for those who might feel a little bit wary. Theory of the justice system and academia.

It's a really good question because we had a good number of artists after the Forum Theatre performance while we were doing a separate process called the Research Principles Lab, which was a SLSA so Social Legal Studies association funded IMPACT Grant workshop. And we were to say, well, okay, well after this form theatre process, what issues are there in terms of oversight or choosing methods or what level of involvement do the artists want to have? And some of the feedback was that the artists have a distrust of even the word law. That law is something which is only really ever the weapon of the enemy, as it were. Law is something which never brings joy, you know, and particularly if you think about it as the law, that means the police. You know, even the most law abiding person within the queer community has got a good reason to be suspicious of police. You know, I'm, I'm a law lecturer, I'm white cis, never been arrested before. But I myself am very aware of good reasons to be distrustful of, of the police as an institution. So in order to get around that or to work with that, I think that's the thing is rather than to avoid these things is to confront them and to say, well, what would it mean for law to benefit.

How do we use these systems? How do we turn them to our advantage? And in part that involves working explicitly to change legal systems to explicitly to change the ways that we work and including as well distrust for academia. How do we work around that? Well, some of the ways are for example to work literally outside of the university. We've done a lot of workshops here because we can use the spaces and resources that we have quite cheaply and efficiently. But a lot of the artists have said that it's good to have the option to work kind of in in there again in their wheelhouse. We're going to be doing a cabaret performance in September in re in response to the For Women Scotland judgment based upon what the artists have have wanted and requested which we're going to do at a queer friendly venue in Leeds City Centre Walk Chambers. We listen and we respond to demand effectively is what we want to be able to do. We're using our expertise to make sure that we can find the the money to fund the projects, to make sure that we can write research that can be used persuasively to policymakers to effect change in future. But we can only do that well if the artists are telling us what it is that needs to be changed and how.

So you received a small grant from the Responsible Research and Innovation Funding here at the university. In your own words, what does Responsible Research and Innovation mean to you?

By and large, unlike quite a lot of university speak quite a lot of acronyms, RRI actually is one which fairly much says what it says on the tin. Responsible Research and Innovation. And I'll come to the innovation last because I think it's actually one of the bits that's overlooked sometimes when we talk about these things. But regarding what's responsible research, naturally that means a keen eye for ethical implications and of course that includes all of the stuff which we have to do properly but take for granted, like data protection, making sure that we have consent from human participants. It must go beyond that. It needs to say, well, are we actually going to help the community by doing this? We could have their consent to do a piece of research that simply hoovers up information from them and leaves them no better than where we found them. What's the point of that? Well, how could who does that actually help apart from us? And if it only helps us, that is exploitative trying to make sure that we're asking the artist, well, what is it that you would like to see that is a change, even if it's just attitudinally even if it's just, well, how we talk about these things, even if it's visibility or an understanding of things and what kind of outputs would be useful as a product of this. So how we do the research needs to be good and what the research achieves needs to be good to, to bring in the legal, philosophic, the legal philosophical aspect of it.

We need both consequentially and deontologically to be doing it good and making good by doing this. And so that involves, for example, we've been asked, one of the things that we need is as a result of this is legal materials. We need legal resources, we need to be able to help ourselves. And so we've been cooperating with the fantastic student law clinic down at the University of Sussex in fact, and students there have been putting together resources based upon artists responses to, well, what questions, you know, what legal issues do you have to help create a couple of how to guide. But also we put artists in touch through the research process with other lawyers and legal academics to help them. We've helped some of our artists who've had problems with housing, we've helped some of our artists who've had problems with contracts, including some very predatory contracts. That stuff which we can do relatively straightforwardly in fact, even if it's just putting them in touch with the relevant citizens advice and contact or if it's something we can resolve ourselves. The final point in RRI and I said I'll come back to this is innovation because innovation needs to be done responsibly.

And you know. And what does that mean? Well, that means that we want to make things that are new and interesting and creative, but we want them to be done in a way which is still going to be helpful to the community, again is going to be done in a way that's helpful and create helpful outcomes in the sphere of law. Being able to do theatrical and creative work and using queer methodologies that understand and orient around the queer experience of individuals, allow us to innovate, but in a way that is artist authored, artist led. That allows us to think of these new methods and apply these new methods which the artists themselves are bringing to the table. Things like form theatre. When we're doing this new and interesting research, we're doing it in a way which hopefully won't just be a new method, but would also provide new solutions using new tools, interesting new creative tools to create interesting creative solutions.

I think that's probably the most creative description of responsible research and innovation. I've ever heard. So thank you for that. I think that really brings that concept to life in a lot more detail with the Responsible Research innovation funding. Can you tell us what you did with it and what you're most proud of?

From that work we were able to acquire a. A small but not insignificant amount of money from this award which allowed us to do a couple of things. One was it allowed us to build upon a. What was an informal connection, but now has become a more formal network with Jurist north, who are a network of academics, largely across the north of England, but across, certainly across the UK more broadly, who take critical approaches to law and want to be able to work with innovative approaches in sort of leadership for legal academia moving forward. In particular, they wanted to have more work done regarding what they refer to as queer theory, leadership and inclusion. And we said, well, this looks like this sounds like the kind of thing that we really want to be doing much more of with laws of drag. And so we ran a round table combining the representatives from the Juris north network artists amongst the laws of drag network academics within the School of Law, but also outside of the School of Law. We had external speakers speaking from, from outside of the UK as well, coming to us live from.

As part of a hybrid event talking about drag and queerness in other jurisdictions, including Thailand, we workshopped towards getting principles for future collaborative work with drag artists. It has been quite a process because it's not one of those things where if we were just doing things, doing legal research by reading books and saying what we reckon you could read something and publish within a few months, you could just churn that out. But because we're trying to create a network, build that network and figure out as we're doing so, how we're going to work together and what principles we want to use. That takes a lot of time, that takes a lot of thinking, and it takes a lot of inclusion and involvement. You know, we came away from that workshop with relatively few concrete principles, but we had identified the areas that we needed to address. So we realized that we needed to address what methods and methodologies we're going to use, what sort of ethical considerations there would be at each step of those research processes that we need to establish a way of understanding and monitoring drag artists, oversight of that process again, from start to finish, from conceiving of the research questions through to final dissemination of findings and outputs, and then also that we needed to continue to grow the network so that we could make it as broad and representative as possible. And with that in mind, we were able to then take those questions and apply them to the research Principles Lab that we did April 2024. This event involved the Forum Theatre piece on how to work sustainably with academics as drug artists and a series of activities which included things like a methods menu and an outputs manifesto for the artists to write and a series of posters and timelines, lots of visuals, creative methods to condense these principles down.

The Responsible Research and Innovation project last year was really useful because it laid the groundwork for us to be able to establish these are the conversations we need to now have. This is how we're going to have those conversations and has put us in a position now whereby we're getting ready to effectively apply for funding for our first big research project.

Looking ahead, what are your biggest hopes and you think are the biggest challenges for creating that positive change that you've talked about?

I might start with the challenges first and I'm going to start off with the big scary ones. A lot of the change that the artists want to see in the world will involve us destroying entirely the structures that cause oppression within our society. So the. The removal entirely of patriarchal thinking, the destabilization of gender, the removal of extractivist colonialist capital and neoliberalism, these are things which laws, a drag itself may struggle to achieve despite again, our very best and sincere efforts. What that means is that we need to work despite these forces. I think that when it comes to challenges, that happens on the sort of macro level of, well, what if a particular newspaper picks up that the university lecturer is doing a project like this? Or alternatively, this summer, Rosie and I were meant to be going to Chicago to present on the laws of drag work. We were warned off of going because of the potential risks to our safety at the border. We are living in a world whereby I have visibly seen a backsliding in terms of the not just the protections afforded to academics, but literally the quality of life of queer people globally.

Those are the, you know, again, the big challenges that we see fragments of in our work. We're quite lucky that we work for a university that does fight for equality, does provide opportunities for us to do this sort of work, and recognizes that it is important. That said, one of the other challenges is working despite the neoliberal institution. Again, we have got some fantastic colleagues at the school, the faculty across different organizations within the university who've helped us with this work. It would be very easy to take a lot of those benefits for granted. However, there are a lot of pots of money out there that would not pay artists for their time. And we need to be able to use our time as overworked academics tactically in order to be able to make sure that we're making this work. So there's other sort of bigger structural problems that we, that we need to deal with.

But in terms of hopes, opportunities for transformative change, there are some concrete things which could be improved in terms and already starting to see these in terms of things like how local government understands and handles drag artists, how local police forces understand and communicate with queer venues, even if it's, quite frankly just to leave them be, but how you have that dialogue in a way which is sustainable, safe and fair. There are all sorts of practical legal impact gains that can be made from this. But I think one of the biggest hopes I have for this is that it does create a network that empowers our artists. And that sounds very vague, that sounds very esoteric, but we have artists now who are speaking to each other that never met before. And artists can help artists through helping with where to find good cheap fabric or where to, you know, what gigs are available or oh, someone's dropped out of this show, maybe you can. So there's that self help amongst artists which develops there and a solidarity which is kind of lacking in an industry which, as I say, is full of self employed people who have to compete for gigs. But there's also academic and lawyer to artist relationships that build. And that includes, as I say, everything from helping some of our artists who've had difficulties with housing or exploitative contracts or harassment, and the development of legal resources, as I say, with the students at the University of Sussex and those as that practical support, through to the broader benefits of saying, well, we are a visible network, we are recognized as an industry, we're recognized as queer, empowered subjects of law.

And that doesn't just mean that we are subject to law, that means that we have rights, that means that we can work and organize together. And that actually is a better way, I think, of fighting against the neoliberal, hollowing out of not just the university sector, but of the state in general, providing solidarity and providing opportunities for us to actually work and learn from each other.

I love that an academic project has turned into something that's much, much more than it probably was put on paper. So the societal benefit, empowerment and building of relationships, I think that's really a fantastic set of outcomes that perhaps academics or academic institutions don't always recognise. Finally, what advice would you give to other researchers who want to embrace creative or responsible research activities so it can foster sort of a more inclusive research culture.

One of the first things to recognise is that you will not be the first person to have wanted to do something like this. And when it comes to how do I make. How do I include more artistic and creative methods within research, there are networks and groups out there that you can find who have done this work, who would be absolutely delighted to work with you or at least to share what they've done or to. To give you pointers towards their publications or better still, their creative output so that you can see what's happened and learn those methodologies. They are methods. They are therefore rigorous in their own way. And I feel like it would be a mistake to simply try to pick them up without doing the work. You know, in the way as academics, we.

If we're learning methods, we. And we want to be rigorous, then we should be rigorous. But that's where collaboration comes in. So I would never describe myself as a foreign theatre expert, but, you know, I. But thankfully, I've got. I know somebody who. Who is right. And none of us can be experts in everything.

You do not need to be an expert in theatre and dance and social media and law or medicine or whatever it is that you're doing. But if you network out and you ask, people are friendly and nice, you and you say, this is something that we want to do, it can have these positive benefits for the people that we want to work with, for people like you, for people like us. How do we form that. That bond? How do we. Then. Having those conversations is absolutely vital. And sometimes that is messaging out of the blue, sometimes that is dropping an Instagram message. I have spoken to so many artists for the first time by dropping into their DMS and being like, hey, love your work, you're really cool.

Please. Would you consider coming to one of our workshops? Love your hair. Hope you win. But genuinely, sort of, these are. These are cool and interesting people. Why wouldn't I want to work with them? I think the other thing as well is that you're gonna need time and you're gonna need money. Neither of those things are to be taken for granted. Certainly not in higher education in the United Kingdom, certainly not at this current time.

So it is good to have a conversation with relatively senior people who know where the POTS are. We certainly did not come into laws of drag knowing even what impact was. We didn't. We barely knew what the Research Excellence framework, the ref was. We just want to do this cool project which will help people and is fun and camp and queer and great. And then we had other colleagues within the school who said, that's interesting. I thought that you'd think that this was just some kind of fluff piece or. And finally, news item, but they said, they said, no, you know, there's an impact angle here.

You need to speak to this person or you need to. Here are some hyperlinks to some rather unpleasant looking pages, but very, very useful information on those pages with regards to how you can fund these, these things. And again, you don't need to be an expert in everything, you don't need to be an expert in how everything is funded. But you'll have, you will have colleagues who will be able to point you in the direction of how to, how to do this. And this is again, thinking in terms of tactically, how do I work with the university and work with the institute, Sometimes it's, how do I work around the institution to make this work? There are times when it feels like, and this isn't the case, but at times it feels like I am Robin Hooding the university and like handing cash to drag artists. And of course, no, I'm paying them for their time while we do these things. You need to know how to work using the systems which otherwise again could become cogs in a machine of extraction and exploitation. Having a few friends and colleagues within your law school.

So within, as I keep saying, law school doesn't need to be law, within your department, within your faculty or within the wider university itself. Absolutely vital to that.

And I think impact can be just so diverse from academic projects. And I really support diverse outputs, not just publishing things. I know publication is really important, but there's so much else you can do when it comes to outputs from academic research, for sure.

And if you, if as an academic, as somebody who might describe themselves as like a public intellectual or whatever, your main outputs are read by maybe 15 people and largely have just been skimmed through or summarized by an AI that just steals and churns through your work and doesn't care. That may be very good for promotion purposes for certain, certain people are in certain positions, but is that really what we're here to do? Again, in terms of how we do things and what the outcome is, is this any good? How does this make the world better? And one of the ways that we make the world better is by informing, educating and entertaining. I often think that this is, you know, how do we include this stuff in our teaching? You know, one of the great conversations we've had time and again with our artists is Them saying, God, I remember my time at university or at school even. And there is so much educators can learn from drag artists. It is a performance. You are holding someone's attention for an hour, sometimes longer. It would be remiss of you not to consider, okay, well, how am I going to sell? How am I going to, how am I going to make sure that these students at 9 o' clock in the morning are going to buy in to what it is that I'm teaching? Particularly if you're teaching something like law, which is important and interesting, but can be very dry if you're not doing it right. And when in terms of research outputs, as again, the artists are right to insist that we don't ask to publish another article.

I think they understand that we have to publish for the ref so that we can keep our jobs and keep doing the work that we do. But it's not enough. Whether that's, you know, posting things on social media or writing a jargon free version of the publication or again, doing a cabaret about, about the issue, getting the artists themselves, who are experts in being performers, to help to convey that information to the public, whether that's local, regional or national. For sure, absolutely. And it's one of the absolute joys of, of, of working in, in, in the way that we do.

I think that's a really lovely note to end on and it, it actually really resonates with a previous episode that I recorded with Duncan Yellowlees, which was all about presenting as your authentic self. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to pop that link in the show notes so that once people listen to this episode, go back and listen to Duncan's episode because there's some really lovely parallels there. I'm afraid that's all we've got time for. It's been really lovely talking to you. Your approach, your ethos, it really embodies responsible research, practice, but also creativity and fun in academia. There's not enough fun in academia. And I wish you all the best with your research endeavours.

You're absolutely right. There needs to be more fun. Play, play is so important for learning, for teaching, for exchanging ideas and for us developing as humans and for building again community and solidarity and everything else that we do. But thank you ever so much once again for having me. I'll stop before I start another rant about solidarity and creativity. And yeah, thank you ever so much for having me. It's been an absolute joy to chat to you today.

Thank you and thank you to our listeners. I hope you've enjoyed this episode and it's brought some joy to your day. Please do keep listening to the podcast. Thank you very much everyone.

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