In this episode Nick talks to Dr Louise Saul, Network+ coordinator for CaSDaR (Careers and Skills for Data Driven Research), a UKRI-funded initiative aiming to professionalise and build community around data stewardship in the UK.

They discuss shared work through the Open Research Competencies Coalition (ORCC) and Louise’s previous UKRN role as an ORCA (Open Research Coordinator and Administrator) at the University of Southampton, supporting open research training and implementation.

Louise discusses using stand-up comedy to communicate research and open research ideas, and outlines her career path from biotechnology and a PhD in protein crystallography through multiple postdocs, teaching, and into open research and data.

She explains meta-research as “research on research,” including a study on what authors include in methods sections and implications for reproducibility.

Louise shares some of her data-management "horror stories," and highlights sector-wide challenges: unclear career pathways and progression for research-enabling roles, which CaSDaR addresses via funding, events, and resources.

Links:

• CaSDaR (Careers and Skills for Data Driven Research)
• Ruby Carr Comedy
• UK Reproducibility Network
• (Episode 129) UKRN Train the Trainer: accelerating the uptake of open research practices across academic disciplines
• (Episode 123) Valuing Diverse Research Outputs: The Hidden REF and the 5% Manifesto with Simon Hettrick
• Sonrai - Irish Data Stewardship Network

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Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You’ll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Hello, it’s Nick, and I’m very pleased today to be joined by Dr. Louise Saul, who is based at the University of Southampton and describes herself as a jack of all trades, master of none, which is certainly a professional role that I relate to. Welcome to the podcast, Louise.

Hello. Lovely to be here.

So, as I say, you’re based at Southampton, where you’re currently Network+ coordinator for the CaSDaR network, um, so that’s perhaps our first acron- acronym of the conversation, possibly of many, which stands for?

I mean, would it even be a project in academia if you didn’t have an acronym? No, no. I mean, first of all, there’s that. Yeah. Um, Careers and Skills for Data Driven Research, and it’s a UKRI-funded Network+ to professionalise the role of data stewardship in the UK, in a nutshell.

Well, that’s perhaps the first clue to one of our shared interests.

I think we’ve got a few, but, uh, namely careers in sort of data management and open research. I think, uh, I was just trying to remember how and when I met you. It’s relatively recently, I think, um, through the Open Research Competencies Coalition, or ORCC, to give its acronym for short. Um, so that’s kind of…

How would you describe it? I guess it’s like a self-selecting group of open research enthusiasts?

Yes, it is. It’s kind of open research geeks get together and talk about what is going on in the world of open research in a very informal way.

Yeah, and, uh, so we’re collaborating, aren’t we, really, to improve open research skills across the sector.

I mean, that’s where perhaps some of the CaSDaR stuff comes in that we can talk about in a bit more detail. Career development in related roles ‘cause, you know, I’m open research advisor here in, at Leeds, based in the research services team, and that very much requires me to be a sort of jack of all trades.

We’ve got a range of different organisations on there. I’m trying to think who’s there. We’ve got the British Library represented, Jisc-

DCC … um,

More acronyms, RLUK.

Yep, exactly.

Um- That’s Research Libraries UK. Um-

UKRN, UK Reproducibility Network.

I, I think in a previous role you were open research coordinator and administrator, um, another… an ORCA.

I was an ORCA, as opposed to being… Yeah, for Southampton. As opposed to going around attempting to flush seals off bits of ice- not that type of ORCA … I used to…

I used to be the open research coordinator and administrator, or ORCA, for Southampton. That was a UKRN role for the open research program, ORP Yet more acronyms.

Um, and my role was broadly to support the implementation of the ORP in Southampton, but also support the national project, primarily in the training area, but also in the sharing and integrating area.

Yeah, and I think that’s the… In that context, that’s the only time I’ve actually met you in person. You were at Leeds, weren’t you, I think, for a for a meeting. Was that last year or even the year before? I can’t remember.

It was the year before. Was it? Which seems… It really does- Mm … doesn’t seem like that long ago.

We are in early ’26, I suppose, but yeah.

Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Yeah, it was about… It was December 2024, and I, I remember bounding up to you like an over-enthusiastic Labrador and introducing myself and then being like, “Oh, yes, you’ve only seen my face on a screen.

I’m very sorry.”

Yeah, and like most people, you’re a lot bigger in real life.

I am. I get that a lot. People often go, “You’re very tall.” Well,

People look small on the telly, don’t they?

Yeah. They’re like, “You, you look very…” Y- people often tell me that I’m a lot taller than they think I’d be.

Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s the role of, of ORCA. And, um, so, and you perhaps know my colleague Kikachukwu who’s got a similar role at Leeds.

Yeah, yeah. So- Um- … yeah. The, it’s Leeds ORCA, yes.

Yeah. So Kikachukwu’s, um, also been on the podcast. Um, we were talking about Train the Trainer, actually, the UKRN program, Train the Trainer. So perhaps I’ll- Yeah … I’ll post that in the show notes when, when I put this out.

Yeah, that would be lovely. I’d love to… I’d love to hear about Kika’s experience.

Yeah. And, um, today we’re looking forward to learning a bit more about your academic and professional background or your various trades, uh, of which you are a jack of.

Uh, but first I wanted to hear more about, um, your stand-up comedy. I believe you’re, uh, a budding stand-up comedian. Is that right?

Yes. We’ve taken, we’ve taken a, like a very swift left turn into a place that probably nobody expected. Um, yes. So, gosh, about a year ago now, um, I was happily living my life in the University of Southampton Library, and I was approached by Nikki Clarkson, who you know, you know as well.

Through UKCORR, yes, I know her through UKCORR, which is another acronym. That’s the UK Council of Open Research and Repositories. Hopefully that’s the last one of the, of the acronyms.

Oh, you know there’s gonna be more. You know there’s gonna be more. Mm-hmm. Um, so Nikki Clarkson came up to me, she said, “Would you be interested in doing some training in stand-up comedy?”

And I just… M- my response was, “Well, yeah, why, why not? Why, why not?” And it turns out that Les Carr, who is a, um, is an academic at the University of Southampton, has been running this training scheme for a few years now to support people in academia to develop skills in communicating their research. Through the medium of stand-up comedy.

And it’s honestly so much fun. He runs this training session with his daughter, Ruby, who is a professional stand-up. I’ll see if I can get her website, and I’ll send it to you so you can put it in the show notes. Ruby is fantastic. And it was honestly the most fun I have had in, you know, maybe about 10 years, and bear in mind, I only got married about five years ago.

So it was just honestly so much fun, and it was really funny when I was talking to Les about it afterwards. He said, “You know, most people I have to push on the stage. With you, it’s just an issue to get you off the stage.”

One of those hooks, a crook to pull you off?

And- Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it’s been really great, but it’s also

I mean, it’s helped my communication skills because I used to be one of these people who would tell a story, and you could see people’s eyes glaze over because they’d be thinking, “Okay, are we reaching a point at any point soon? Are we sailing in the direction of there being a point?” Um, and it’s really helped with that.

Uh, I would thoroughly recommend it. Um, and it’s been a really nice experience to actually talk about some of the things that I’ve been doing. I’ve talked about my experiences in academia, but also one of my, uh, sets is called Using Open Research Techniques to Validate Claims Made in Mumsnet Posts.

Right.

So this is … You actually talk about open research in your comedy set?

Yes.

Is it is the recording available, or is it, um-

There isn’t. I, um, I think I talk … ‘Cause I, I do sometimes go a little bit off-piste, and I think I’ve maybe traumatised Les a little bit too much to actually let him record my stuff because he’s like, “I, I don’t know if I want to share this. Is this the impression that I want people to get of Southampton Science Comedy?” ‘Cause that’s what it’s called, Southampton Science Comedy. Um, yeah. But it’s … There i- I really should start recording it because, and getting it out there because, um … And I really enjoy it, and, you know, it’s just, it’s just a nice way, and a way that people don’t expect, to communicate a subject that can be re- it can be difficult to get across. I mean, you work in open research. You know sometimes it’s a bit of an uphill battle to get people engaged.

Yeah.

So, you know, it’s, it’s a nice way to communicate the ideas around it in a very non-confrontational way.

Yeah. And I, I know of Les.

I’ve met him a couple of times as well cause he’s been mentioned, I think, on the… He’s, he… ’Cause he was one of the, uh, original people involved in the creation of the EPrints software, I think-

Yes …

Um, um, way, way back. And, uh, when I was talking to another colleague of yours, Simon Hetrtick, also on this podcast, he mentions Les in that context. Um, which perhaps e- enables us to segue seamlessly into open research, where you’ve already mentioned it in the context of your comedy. But, uh, and, you know, data more broadly. Uh, but yeah, just tell us a little bit about your academic and professional background and what brought you to where you are now.

Oh, gosh. So my… It’s, it’s a bit of a kind of winding path. I started my PhD in protein crystallography, but before that I’d worked in biotechnology for a few years. Um, so I worked in a small… Uh, it, I think by the time I got to it, it wasn’t technically a startup anymore. It was a kind of small, small business.

But I was working there on PCR technologies, and I was enjoying the lab work, but I thought, “Okay, cool. Let’s take this a bit further. Let’s do a PhD.” Um, I did a PhD in protein crystallography. I think… I, I mean, it’s fair to say I was just a very mediocre PhD student. I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t terrible. I managed to make my way through my PhD.

Um, but you know, I wasn’t the, like, shining light of academia coming through. Um, and then when I finished my PhD, I, I found myself in the situation that a lot of people, uh, find themselves in, where you just think, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got a mortgage. And you know what? Food is kind of nice. I would like to continue eating, so I need a job.”

And around about that time, um, I was contacted by somebody who had a technician role going. I was like, “Thank you. Thank you so much.” And ended up staying in that, on in that lab as a postdoc, and took a sideways turn into immunology, which was perfect for me. I, I enjoyed it so much. And I moved around different labs.

So I did a postdoc in King’s in London, I did a postdoc in Edinburgh, and I did a postdoc in Southampton. And I, I really do think it’s kind of what’s led me to this jack-of-all-trades thing, is I sort of realised that flexibility and ability to do lots of different things has, is almost a kind of strength of mine, that I, I’m relatively adaptable. Um, and yeah, after doing several postdocs, I kind of thought, “Well, I can become a lecturer, or I can go off into industry,” because I’d kind of priced myself out of the postdoc category. ‘Cause you do that after a while. You sort of, you reach the top of the postdoc scale, and then it’s a bit too difficult to employ you really anymore Um, and I was also, I was also kind of losing, losing a bit of interest in that research area.

So I thought, “Well, okay, the kids are at an age where I should really pay attention to them a little bit more than I am”. They’re sort of, they’re sort of being a bit selfish and annoying, and they keep expecting me to feed them and, like, be around during school holidays. Um, so I became a teacher for a few years because, um, I mean, it paid as much as doing a postdoc, but I could be around in the school holidays. Why, why wouldn’t you? Um, and then after being a teacher for f- four or five years, I… Something like that, um, I realized that I missed academia.

I knew I didn’t want to go back into the roles that I had been doing, but I wanted to go back in some capacity. So when the role for ORCA came up, I, I…

Steven actually, ‘cause I’d originally applied for jobs elsewhere in Southampton, and Steven approached me and said, “Just so as you know, I think this, I think this…” My old boss, Steven. “I think this job would be a nice one for you. Would you think of applying?” I did, and yeah, I really, really enjoyed it, the ORCA role for the UK Reproducibility Network. It was a fantastic role. Um, Steven, uh, Vidovic, my previous boss, he’s, he was absolutely fantastic. And yeah, it just felt like a really nice fit for me.

And then I got really into the data aspect of open research and, you know, I, I felt that it was something that I was quite passionate about, partially because my own research data practices have been terrible in the past.

They’ve been awful. I actually call some of my training sessions Mistakes I Have Made So That You Don’t Have To. And I just got really interested, and then, then we end up here.

Yeah. Well, just what I think, uh, and as a plug maybe for an event, I don’t know, y- another… Speaking of ORCAs, you may know Alice Howarth?

Yes.

Um, so did you see she did a talk for us earlier this week at Leeds, uh, virtually?

I did, yes. I shared it. I shared it around Southampton.

Right. Did you come? Uh, were you there or not?

I wasn’t, I wasn’t able to come, no.

It’s recorded anyway, but I’ll, I’ll put again. Perfect. I’ll put another one. Do you know, ‘cause it’s, it’s interesting all these connections ‘cause, you, you’ve mentioned to me Steven Vidovic as well because I was talking to him on UKCORR, and he mentioned Alice Howarth, and we were talking about plain language summaries in that context. So that’s another aspect of open research. But yeah, so data is, uh, where you… And I, and s- sort of reading around some of your biography and looking on LinkedIn, you’re particularly interested in, in res- research standards and meta research, I think?

Yeah.

Well, first of all, what actually is meta-research? What, what, what does it mean?

So it’s sort of research on research. Like, how do we make the decisions? How are we doing research? And I, I mean, I find it fascinating because researchers are so interesting. So interesting. Um, and it’s, it’s just brilliant because you end up doing all this research on how research is being conducted, and you sort of feel like a PhD student again because you’re like, “Am I doing this right?”

Because for me, I mean, my, my background is kind of very heavy chemistry-based techniques. Um, but you know, I’m kind of doing all these things that almost this sort of behavioral science. So it’s like, am I doing this right? So for instance, I’m doing one study at the moment which is looking at the information that people share in their method sections of their published manuscripts, and why they select specific pieces of information to put into their method section.

Like, why are you choosing this piece of information versus this piece of information? Why have you placed importance on this? So there’s all … But there’s other areas of meta-research. For instance, people that I’m working with actually related to CaSDaR and PSDI, another acronym, Physical Sciences Data Infrastructure.

We’re all in the one office, so I’m spending a lot of time talking to them. They’re doing some research into electronic lab notebooks, so how people do their process recording when they’re doing research. So I think it’s a really exciting and interesting and rapidly developing field, and I think one thing that I am really passionate about is that we use the opportunity to look forward.

Mm. So not look backwards, not think, “Oh, we’re doing things badly,” but really why are we doing the things that we are doing, and how can we possibly, not, not improve, but how can we raise the standards for people?

And that meta-research that you just made, well, the method stuff you mentioned, is that part CaSDaR, or is

That- Uh, sort of, sort of.

‘Cause it, it just, I’m, uh, ‘cause I struggle. I mean, it’s my full-time job, but I struggle to keep up with everything that’s going on. Yeah. ‘Cause there’s a couple of UKRN projects as well. Is it Meteor, or I can’t even remember what they’re called. Yes, Meteor and Comet. There’s, there’s some meta, meta-research-

Yeah,

Yeah, related stuff through that as well. But this is Is this CaSDaR stuff then, or is it, is it- Uh,

S- sort of. Um, so this is something, this is research that I started doing a f- I want to say about a year ago. Um, and it started up because I don’t know if you … I don’t suppose you … Do you know Anna Korzeniowska?

Know the name, I think vaguely.

Yes. So she used to be the ORCA for Surrey.

Yes.

Yeah.

No, I do know her, because, yes, we met at the Open Science Conference at Manchester last year. Yes. Kikachukwu and I were there. Yeah. ‘Cause she’s now with, um, she’s with a journal now, with, uh, eLife, I think.

Yes, and she’s, she left eLife a couple of months ago, and now she’s at Southampton.

Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

It’s, yeah.

So I m- when I met her, she was at eLife talking. Yeah.

Yeah. ’

Cause I was, ’cause I reached out to them about her ’cause I was interested in their open peer review models, and that kind of thing. Right. Okay.

Yeah. Which is, I mean, open peer review I could just go on, ’cause I, I love open peer review.

Um, I think it’s fantastic. Um, so, so yes, Anna, we started talking, ‘cause Anna’s PhD is in-

Dogs …

Cognition. Dogs. Dogs. Yes. Behavioral psychology.

Of dogs. ’Cause we talked about it, ’cause I, yeah, ’cause I, ’cause is that … Are you a dog person? Or is that another-

Um, no. No. I’m, I’m-

You, you referred to yourself as a Labrador.

I think that’s why I’m getting confused. Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause I, I’ve got a Labrador, but, uh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I’m basically a Labrador in human form. It’s the hair and the fact we’ll eat anything. Um, but yeah, so we got chatting, ‘cause I, my … Years and years and years ago, and I hope this doesn’t … You feel free to cut this out if you think it will cause an issue with the podcast, but years ago, I used to do, um, animal research.

So I was doing animal research under ASPA, which is the, uh, legal, oh, the kind of legal structure under which anyone does any a- ex- animal experimentation. And it was something that I found quite frustrating that when people write up manuscripts, they often assume a lot of prior knowledge- Mm-hmm … when you’re coming to read the manuscript, and if you’re coming to reproduce or replicate the method or the experiment that you’re trying to do.

And I know that something about reproducibility is… reproducibility centers around the person who is attempting to replicate or reproduce the work has the relevant experience and background to be able to do so. Now, I cons- considered myself to be, you know, have quite a good, solid understanding of how a lot of these experiments should be done, but even reading some of these methods, I wasn’t able to understand how I would attempt to replicate these experiments.

And Anna and I were expressing some of this, um, frustration to each other, because obviously Anna was, had done some work that wasn’t covered under ASPA, so there was, it wasn’t experimentation, but she’d done a lot of cognition work with dogs.

Mm-hmm.

And reading papers, again, there wasn’t this, maybe this information in the method sections that meant that you could replicate an experiment.

So we decided, okay, we’re going to go out and we’re going to survey researchers, what do they include in the method section, and how do they prioritize what to include in their method section? Is replication and is reproducibility something that they actually consider when they’re thinking about writing their method sections?

So that has been going on for probably a, nearly a year now, actually, and it, I’ve kind of carried it on to CaSDaR with the understanding of my boss, Sammy, who I think … Have you met Sammy?

Sammy?

Pirmin Kanza.

No, I don’t think so no.

Sammy’s been really, really understanding and, you know, she’s been really supportive, and has kind of agreed to let me carry on this, this train of meta research.

But I, I find it fascinating because it tells you so much about what people are thinking about when they’re writing- Yeah … these parts of their research dissemination. Are they writing it with other people in mind, or are they writing it just to get it out there?

Well, I’ll … That sounds fascinating. I’ll have to look into, you know, if you’ve got any- anything to point out in that sort of area, because it’s a conversation I have quite a lot with colleagues, academic colleagues actually, because … And, and again, anecdotally, and, you know, I’m not, non-academic, and I don’t have an aca- academic background like, like you do, but in terms of the method sec- section, often people … You know, it’s, it’s, it’s word limited for starts, isn’t it, very often? Yes. So you can’t necessarily put all the information in there that might be required potentially to reproduce, uh, well, to, to, to undertake an experiment in the same way as it was done.

And a lot of emphasis as well I’ve heard on sort of telling a story, and people sort sort of say- Yes … “Oh, don’t worry too much about your methods. Just get onto the, you know, the meat of the thing.” Yeah. And that kind of thing. But- Yeah … but that’s just anecdotally.

Yeah, which is … I mean, because, I mean, you won’t- Because you’re

I mean, I’m sorry, I think librarians are just the best, the best people in the world. They know everything. So I’m assuming automatically that you know more than I do about this.

Well, I’m not even a proper librarian either, to be fair. I’m not, I don’t have a librarian qualification, so, uh, that’s another, another area that’s interesting to me.

I mean, that’s perhaps another conversation. But, you know, there’s … I do work in a library, um, and I’m with colleagues that are qualified librarians. But, you know, again, it’s another s- uh, and I suppose that’s the, the work that we’re trying to do with ORCA, uh, as well, isn’t it, the Open Research Competencies Coalition.

And what sort of skills do people have and, you know, how did they get to where they get? And I think one of the concerns for me, and perhaps for yourself as well, in this, the area that we work in, is there’s no real career path. I’ve just learnt it on the job. And then- Yeah … you’ve obviously had a very varied career doing different things.

No. But how do we actually … Because it is such an important area, how do we actually equip people with the skills to work in, in these sorts of areas when it is so varied?

Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think this is something that actually attracted me towards the CaSDaR role, was I was noticing that especially, especially within spheres such as professional services or libraries, the opportunities for career progression just weren’t as good.

Yeah.

Which was something that, you know, I found quite upsetting, because I’m seeing how hard people work in these areas, and I’m seeing how unbelievably skilled people have to be, yet the ability to be promoted isn’t necessarily there. And I don’t think it’s … I think it’s a, an issue across the sector. You know, anecdotally, I am speaking to people in institutions in primarily England and Scotland, and there’s people having the same problem of I’m either waiting for somebody to leave a role in the level above me at my institution, which, you know, that’s not nice, especially if you, if you like the people you don’t want them to leave.

Um, but or they’re looking at, okay, I’m gonna have to move to another institution in order to get promoted.

Yeah.

And often it’s not very clear what skills, like you’re completely right, it’s not clear what skills people need in order to move to that next level.

Yeah. There’s not a course you can do. You know?

There’s not a qualification- No … you can get. You know, even d- to say librarianship is a qualification, but that doesn’t necessarily- No … equip you these days for the variety of different roles that exist in, in the open research space, certainly. So yeah, it is- No … it is difficult.

Absolutely. And it’s, it’s a very- I think it’s something that’s very important for the sector, the higher education sector as a whole, to understand the skills and appreciate the skills, because I don’t, I don’t know if there is an appreciation for the skills that people need who work in these librarianship roles.

And I’m saying librarianship roles as a very kind of open, to include anyone who works in a, um, I suppose research enabling role. Yeah. The, the skills that are required to ensure that institutions run. Mm-hmm. We’re kind of wandering into Hidden Ref territory.

Yeah. Well, quite, yeah. No, I was just thinking of the conversation I had with Simon Hettrick from the Hidden Ref team, and a, a lot of the stuff that they’re doing is focusing in this, in this kind of area as well, isn’t it? Um-

Yeah. So Simon is one of … He’s one of the co-Is for CaSDaR.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, we … He’s, I mean, again, it’s … I mean, CaSDaR has a fantastic team. We’ve got Simon Hettrick, Simon Coles, Isabelle Stark, who’s the research data manager here, um, and, um, James Baker, and Sammy, who’s the principal investigator.

So it’s a really, really amazing team. Um, and it’s, it’s just fantastic to work with them all. But yeah, I was really, really attracted because I just … to the role because I just saw how hard everyone works in these research enabling spheres, and how there’s no clear progression for how you can move forward in them.

Yeah. Well, perhaps then we can focus, but tell us a little bit more about CaSDaR. So just to repeat the, what it stands for, it’s Careers and Skills for Data-driven Research. Um, so what sort of things are you doing as part of that? ‘Cause th- there’s a funding call-out, I think, at the moment, isn’t it? Yes.

’Cause I volunteered to be a reviewer, um, for that.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. Um, is, is the call still open, or is it, is it closed now?

So we closed the call last week. We got … Oh gosh, we got, um … Oh God, can I even remember off the top of my head? That’s terrible. Um, we got 24 applications for 70K pot funding.

Mm-hmm.

And then five applications for a smaller pot of funding that was for 5K.

Um, and the idea was the 5K one was going to be a kind of like training as in somebody brings somebody in and trains them up in how to give, give them an experience of data stewardship. And I realised I should probably say something about what data stewardship is. So it’s really the, those people … And the moment I say this description, people are gonna know, are, are gonna automatically have somebody that they work with in their head, where they go, “Okay, yeah, they’re a data steward.”

So it’s the people who support the planning for collecting data, support- collecting data and then storing it in the in the right place. Who support archiving, preservation, sharing, making sure that you’re using the right terminology, making sure that you’re using the correct legal guidance when you’re attempting to collect and do all of these things with data.

Um, so it’s a kind of… And the role will look slightly different in each organisation that you’re in. But quite often, people who are data stewards aren’t necessarily given the right recognition for the role, and we’re also arguing that it’s a, it’s a massively important role in UK research because especially, especially with the rise of… we’ve made it half an hour before saying AI. I’m so proud of us. We’ve made it half an hour without mentioning it. Um, yeah, especially with the rise of AI and the, the thoughts that we need to make data AI-ready, I mean, that’s a huge, huge can of worms. But, um, you know, this is, this is going to become an increasingly important role.

Oh, well, I don’t know the date, but yeah, that, that certainly… Simon would know, wouldn’t he? Because he-

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so sort of like was done for research software engineer, we’re trying to formalise that role of data steward by creating a community, by creating some idea of the ways, the paths that people use to go into data stewardship, start collecting some resources, um, and have an idea of the training and skills gaps that are needed for it, um, and really kind of do that in a way that is very sustainable so the community has ownership of it.

And again, this was something that I was really passionate about, because I think for this to work, it has to come from the community. It has to come from a need that the community has identified. Yeah. Um, yeah, I’m so sorry. I’ve realized I’ve just kind of talked at you for-

No, well, that’s, that’s the point.

That’s what it’s

Well arguably I’ve talked at you for half an hour now.

No, no, it’s, uh, it’s, uh… That’s what, that’s what, you know, it’s all interesting stuff, and it’s, uh, you know, I’m learning a lot as… and listening to you. But I suppose I do have a, a question around… ’Cause, well, am I a data steward, for example?

My, my conception of a data steward, I think, is more discipline-specific. Would that be true, do you think, or, or not? Or-

So well, there’s, there’s multiple different definitions of data stewards. So for instance, Sonrai, who is the data stewardship network in Ireland, will say, “Well, if you have anything to do with data, effectively, if you touch data, you are a data steward.”

Um, and I think that is a really important way of viewing it, that data consist- will always need stewarding. No matter what point it is at in the research data life cycle, um, it will need stewarding. Um, but there’s also, I think, an argument that we need people who are really, really specialising-

Yeah.

In certain areas to understand the needs of data at different times. So I mean, do you support people to get their research and their research data ready for publication? Do you support people and train them to use various open research practices like pre-registration, where they plan to collect data?

Yeah, very much so. And, uh, I suppose, uh, you know, and I, in that looser sense of the term, I, you know… ’Cause I look after our data repositories here with colleagues. We have a, um, part of the team- Yeah … that we, we advise on data management planning, do all, you know, the various other associated open research practices you mentioned, such as pre-registration or preprints or, you know, whatever it may be.

But I suppose the challenge for me is I’m a lay person, you know, as, uh, as I’m fond of saying, as colleagues will recognise. Um, so I don’t have, um, expertise in physics or chemistry, um, or… What was your background, PC Pro-

Protein crystallography.

Crystallography. You see, I don’t- Yeah, yeah … remember, remember words.

But so lacking that discipline expertise, I need to collaborate. I, I really, you know, the, the, the sense of collaboration I think is a really important one for me with colleagues that do have those disciplinary specific expertise, and then I can bring my knowledge and expertise- Mm … as a, I suppose, a more general data steward, if you like, to, to work with them in a disciplinary specific sense.

So that’s a challenge for me, I think. And we don’t, you know… Certainly at Leeds, we don’t have, um, a recognised role of data steward, um, and we’re quite a centralised team, uh, of, of, of library, library folk that don’t necessarily have those disciplinary specific insights, and that’s what we’re trying to develop, you know, by c- collaboration with, with colleagues in, in the faculties, et cetera. I don’t know if that’s typical or if you recognize that sort of-

Yeah. I think, I think I, from speaking to people… So this is, and this is something we’re actually trying to do. We’re trying to collect evidence to see what people’s role of data stewardship looks like across the sector.

Um- So I think that is pretty typ- typical, that the role of data steward is often distributed across- Yeah … many different roles. And so from the description that you’re giving, yes, I would absolutely describe you as being a data steward. And I, I think this is something that we’re recognising, that often it’s distributed, and such people maybe struggle to get recognition for quite how complex the role can be.

Yeah.

Um, but also when you say you’re a layperson, I think that’s actually… We were talking about this a little bit bef- I think before, before we kind of really started, we were talking a little bit about the importance of being a jack of all trades and master of none, and I think that’s actually a real, a real strength of being able to take skills and transfer them to different-

Yeah.

Different situations. And the… You’re, I mean, you’re a really lovely, very approachable person. In fact, I was… ‘Cause when I told Anna that I was going to be doing this with you, she was like, “Oh, Nick’s so lovely.” “He’s such, he’s such nice… He’s so kind.” Um, so you know, you’re such a lovely, approachable person, and you can’t understate how important that, that skill is actually in data stewardship.

Because for somebody to approach you for help with their work, you need to be a nice, kind, approachable person. And for- Yeah,

So those soft skills, I think. And that’s perhaps where- Yeah … I wonder if, you know, if, if you can call them soft skills. I mean, even soft skill, you know, that, that’s maybe, uh, doing the various skills that you need down, isn’t it?

I mean, it’s, it, there’s so many complexities to it in terms of how- Yeah … you talk about these things.

It’s a, I mean, the communication skill side of things, it’s, it’s definitely a skill. I mean, you can say it’s personality and it, it can’t be taught, but I think it’s absolutely a skill that you can work on.

Yeah. Well, and confidence as well. When you were talking about- Exactly … your comedy, I thought confidence. Because certainly as I’ve, you know, gained more experience, I do now have the confidence to, to know that… Because I don’t know what the heck people are talking about often, you know, in, in, in academics.

Because how can I- Mm … I don’t have a PhD in this, that, or the other. I don’t know what they’re talking about. But you need, I suppose, an aspect of confidence to say, “Well, that doesn’t really matter,” you know? We can sort of meet in the middle and sort of, um, collaborate in ways that supports their research and helps me to learn about it as well, so.

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I, I think it’s, it’s… I, I drive my husband nuts with this, right? So- My husband is, he’s, he’s quite proud of the fact that I’ve got a PhD, and my opinion of my PhD is it’s nothing special. So I just don’t, I, I, I feel like I got my PhD because I refused to give up. Like I said, I was a very mediocre PhD student.

I just refused to give up, and so I got a PhD at the end of it . And I drive my husband nuts because he’s framed my PhD certificate, and I hang it up in the toilet. Um, but you know, I just, I, I mean, I personally don’t feel like having a PhD means that you would necessarily be able to have this greater… you might have a greater disciplinary understanding, but how that fits into an organisation, you know, there’s- Yeah, yeah … you need to be able to see the whole picture, and I think that’s where data stewards such as yourself are so important. Researchers couldn’t just sit there and endlessly put out their research on their own.

That- Well, and- That can’t happen …

There’s so many various conversations around data governance and ethics and- Mm … how that relates in different disciplines, you know. There’s… And, and nobody can hold all that information or knowledge in and of themselves. You know, it needs a collaboration across a big institution, across a sector, and I think that’s what, you know, you and I and organisations and, like ORCC and CaSDaR are trying to do really.

Mm. And I mean, I have to be, I have to be very honest. I, I appreciate that I got my PhD. I was very privileged. I, um, worked in a, I did it in a STEM subject, um, which is very well-funded, and I, I started, I think I started my PhD when I was 27, something like that. Um, so I was very, very privileged when I did my PhD.

I know there are people in, you know- Mm … arts, humanities subjects who worked incredibly hard for their PhDs, or people who came along as, um, mature students who did their PhDs. So you know, um, obviously they, they should feel completely proud of their PhDs. Um, as just me, I personally viewed myself as being very mediocre and just kind of got it because I refused to give up.

So are you a better comedian than PhD student, would you say, or?

Oh, definitely . I was not a good PhD student.

And you’ve, uh, so just a little conscious of time, but you, you did promise me some, uh, data horror stories. Uh, but you’ve, you’ve alluded- Yes … to them already in terms of your own perhaps, uh, failed experiments in data management.

Yes. So if you could give us one or two horror stories that others might learn from?

So yeah, I, like I said, I ended up doing this because I became very conscious of data management because I was just, I was just so terrible at it. I would be there and, you know, instead of writing in my lab book, I would be, like, drawing cartoons of my experiments because that’s really, really helpful.

That’s a very, very helpful thing to do. That’s a very, very helpful way to take notes. Um, no, all sorts of things. So for instance, once I was doing a meta-analysis of some, um, gene expression, and I produced this lovely volcano plot for a paper, and just before we about submit it, my boss came to me and said, you know, “Could you maybe think about redoing this figure?”

Because I just, I just want it to be reformatted. Like, want the axes changed. And I was like, “Sure.” And went to find the data, and I couldn’t. And I s- So I was like, you know what? I’ve been organized. I’ve written down the name of the person who wrote the paper and the author and the year. I’ve written all that down, so it’s fine.

I’ll go back to the paper, download the data, which I did. Redid the analysis, the exact same, with the exact same script, and the data looked, the result looks completely different. And my boss just, “I, I just hate you. I hate you so much.” Clearly they didn’t say that, um, but they were just like, “Well, what is wrong with you?”

It was like, “Do we have time to start with this right now? We need to get this paper out.” Um, and we figured out what happened, uh, after much head-scratching and much, you know, many, many, many tears. And this is, this is part of the reason why I care so much about it, because if you aren’t careful with data, it’s deeply stressful.

Yeah. Yeah.

It’s such a stressful, unpleasant experience for you. So I, I always feel like it’s always this kind of, you know, look after yourself by taking your time and writing things down.

Yeah.

Just be nice to yourself. Um, anyway, so after much, many, many tears, much head-scratching, I figured out what had happened, was the authors of the original paper had realized they’d done something incorrectly, and they had actually…

They’d gone back and they’d re, um, reentered the data in their dataset.

Right.

So the dataset changed.

So, so between, between when you downloaded the first time and the second time. Yeah. Right. Right, right, right.

But as opposed-

And was it a published article or published dataset with a DOI, et cetera, or?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. I hadn’t written down the DOI.

I’m just interested, because this comes up for us sometimes as well. So presumably there was, was there no sort of note that they’d changed the data, or no sort of w- w-

I didn’t notice it.

So it wasn’t your fault then necessarily. I mean, the, losing the data was- No, I mean, I

Should have written…

I mean, A, I should have saved the data.

Yeah. But maybe

This- I mean, that’s, that’s obvious.

Yeah.

Um, but also I should have written it, like

All these things- But, but having said that, had you saved the data, you would have had the wrong result before the data was changed, I suppose, wouldn’t you?

Oh, that’s…

Well, I hadn’t thought about that. I  hadn’t thought about that.

So I’m, I’m just wondering if they, if they… Because we get asked this occasionally, you know, so we might have a published data set with a DOI- Mm … that could, you know, have been used as was the case here. Um, and then they’ll say, “Oh, d- you know, I, d- I want to change this parameter or something.”

And then we will, we will do it, but we need to make a very clear note that that data set has been changed, um, such that ev- if anybody comes back to it, that’s, that’s part of the, the academic record. So I’m just wondering if that was- That’s

Really… I, I didn’t notice it. I didn’t notice it, but then it could have been, um, this is a second version of it.

Yeah.

The, it… Sometimes I’ll say, “This is the second version of X data set.” Um-

But it shows how easy it is, doesn’t it? You know- Yeah … whether it’s an error on your part or their part or just people being people, you know, and just how, how easy it is to make mistakes-

Yeah,

Absolutely … when you’re busy. You know, and n- none of this should be judged either, I think is an important- Well,

That’s, that’s the important point. So yeah, I think it’s, again, it’s this part of this kind of the communication skills of data stewardship, of, um, you can’t… You’ve got to have empathy. You have to have empathy. Because we’re all human, we all make mistakes, and data is a very human construct. Um, and I try to, I normally try to own my mistakes.

I normally try to put my hand up and say, “Look, this was, this was me. I’m very, very sorry about it.” Um, but- But

In this case, maybe it wasn’t all you then. You know, if you’ve been, uh, i- i-

Possibly. You’re being very nice about this. Mm. You’re being very nice. You’re making me feel better, ’cause I always feel terrible about this.

You know me, just sitting there trying to get, trying to get a paper ready, having all of these people waiting on me, and then like, “Guys, the figure looks completely different.” Another good one, and this goes on to, like, stretching the definition of data a little bit. But this is a conversation I’ve been having with a few technicians and, uh, RTPs at the moment, so research technical professionals.

Um, and they… It’s how do, do we define physical samples as data?

Yeah.

And do we plan to store them?

Mm.

Because that’s something that I’m, I’m not sure- If people are thinking about so much, I don’t know.

Well, we do talk about it actually, but only-

Yeah …

In the abstract. So we, you know, um, my colleague Rachel would speak more about this, but, you know, we certainly do advocate potentially, you know, we cover it in our training, et cetera, that a soil sample or whatever it is could and should have a DOI, for example. Um-

Exactly, yeah …

Um, but, um- Um- … I don’t think we’ve got any examples, um, you know, real-life examples. But, um, certainly it should be, you know- Yeah … treated in the same way as digital data.

Well, I can… I know we’ve got… so at the National Histographic Center, which is in Southampton, I know we’ve got, um, some ice cores from the Arctic and I think the Antarctic. Uh, anyway, they have DOIs.

Mm.

So people can trace which ice core they use for certain experiments. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so this was… I had… When I was doing my PhD, again, s- maybe I was just a terrible p- I really was actually, i’m reflecting on this. I was a terrible PhD student. Um, I had everything in one… You know where this is going. I had everything in one minus 20 freezer. Mm-hmm. Just the, the noise you made there. You know you precise. But it was just the way it happened was just so, oh. So the building flooded, and the, the generator was in the basement.

So the electricians had to come in and saw everything, and we were told… We s- we were sent an email, like, “This has happened. If you want to come in and check everything, then do. Otherwise, just be aware the the electricians have been.” And this was maybe the fifth time that it happened, and I thought, “You know what? They’ve got it. They’ve got it. I don’t need to go in. They know the drill by now.” So I came in, and my freezer was there, and I open it up, and this pile of water came out. And um, what, what less than they’d done they’d un- they’d unplugged the extension cord that my freezer was plugged into, and then plugged it into itself.

And, and what were the… These were samples of yours that had been… What, what sort of workload did that represent that was lost?

Um, so the DNA vectors were fine. DNA vectors were fine, um, because I mean, it’s not great for them to be consistently defrosted and refrozen, but, you know, ultimately this doesn’t happen too many times.

Um, but there were some protein samples which were lost so I’d spent a long, you know, a long time making them. They were lost. Um, some bacteria which, you know, normally, normally one or two bacteria will survive, and you can, you can resuscitate them. But, um, yeah, so, um, but it was… But the worst bit was I was thinking about it, and I was like, “I actually don’t know what was lost.”

Because when I started my PhD, I was all, uh, ‘cause I’d, I’d come from an industrial background, and industrial backgrounds are so careful. You log everything. You log when you open new, new reagents. You keep a timeline of everything, who’s accessing things. And when I started my PhD, I was so careful to do the same thing that I did when I was working in industry, and of course, that, that lasted about two weeks.

I don’t know wh- I, I probably discovered the pub, you know? Um, there was a pub, Handley, that was, like, 100 meters away. Um, and I think the worst bit was I, I genuinely wasn’t… It took me a really long time to figure out what had been lost. And I realised there’s one thing: A, physical, backup of physical samples is incredibly important.

I had been relatively good and been transferring things to the minus 80 on regular, at regular intervals and aliquoting. I had been relatively good. The ones that were in the minus 20 were kind of like my hot samples that I was accessing pretty frequently. Um, but yeah, I had no idea. It took me a long time to figure out what I’d actually lost.

That was the scary bit.

But in some ways, Louise, it just strikes me that you’re just a little bit unlucky maybe. I mean, you had this data set w- which was changed between you accessing it on a couple of occasions, and then the electricians plugged the, um, extension cable back into itself.

You can’t plan for that.

No, no, no. Well-

No one’s putting that in a data management plan.

Um, it’s been, it’s really enter- been entertaining speaking to you, Louise, but I’m gonna have to pull the… put that crook in, I’m afraid, and pull you out, ‘cause I’ve- … I’ve got elsewhere to be. I mean, just before we finish, um, so in ter- perhaps go b- back to CaSDaR.

Is, if people… is it a network as such? Can people get involved with CaSDaR beyond those- Yes … funding calls, et cetera?

Yeah. So we run events that people are welcome to come along to, um, which we, like, not w- just welcome, encourage them coming along, too. Um, so we run data steward stories, which is people talking about their careers, how they came to the positions that they, they did.

We had James St- James Steele for… He used to be part of the UK Reproducibility Network.

Mm-hmm. Was that… There was, there was an event recently- Yes … um, that I, I watched, uh, the recording of, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So we’re running one of those soon. And, um, we’ve got various webinars coming up. Um, there’s one, Trusted Research, it’s actually sold, sold out, which was brilliant. That was primarily organised by Lara Skelly at Loughborough. And then when I found out she was organising, I was like, “Hi, can I… Can I come along?”

Was that the one advertised quite re- quite recently?

Yes.

Yeah. And that’s gone already? ’Cause I think I was interested in coming along to that webinar.

Um, yeah, there might be a few tickets left. Let me qu- I can quickly check, but I think there’s a few… Oh, there’s a few tickets left, so get in quick.

Okay. Well, then I’ll, I’ll do that now. Uh, to, to- Um- … see if a colleague’s signed up to it.

Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, that was mostly organized by Lara, and, um, I just tagged along.

Um, but yeah, we’re starting to try and organise some community stuff as well. Mm-hmm. So we’re hoping to do some work on careers, so we’ve got a couple events coming up in April on, um, careers and data steward personas. But also we’ve got a big con- conference coming up in November hopefully. So yeah, there’s…

Just ch- check out our website. Yeah. Join the mailing list.

I’ll put some links. We’ll, uh- Yeah … I’ll put some links on this, um, um-

That’d be amazing. Thank you …

Yeah, yeah. No, that’s great. And, uh, I suppose absolutely finally, uh, what about… When’s your next gig? When’s your… Is, is there any gigs coming up, comedy gigs?

I don’t, I don’t know. I need to sort that one out, because I really miss it. I miss being given a platform just to talk, and nobody interrupts me. Because, you know, that’s normally my life. I’ve got a husband and small children where if they talk, the, the teenagers roll their eyes and walk away.

Well, let us know, and, uh, you know, uh, we’ll keep an eye out for any comedy, uh shows of yours as well. Brilliant. I’m a bit too far away to attend in person, but yeah, if you do ever record anything or on the… You know- That’d be lovely … maybe you’ll get on the telly. I don’t know. We’ll sort of see.

Go off to Edinburgh Festival. Um, no, and thank you, because this has been really, really enjoyable. It’s always lovely spending time with you.

No, that’s great. Thanks, uh, thanks very much, Louise, and, uh, yeah, speak to you again soon.

Speak to you soon. Thank you. Bye.

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