Kevin Schaefer, Andy Walsh, and Evan Garcia dive into the latest buzz in geek culture, kicking things off with a spotlight on Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 and the first season of Star Wars: Maul - Shadow Lord. They dissect the thrilling plot twists and character developments that keep fans on the edge of their seats, especially the dynamic between Daredevil and Bullseye, which takes center stage this season. The trio can't help but gush over the stellar performances and striking visuals that elevate these series beyond the usual fare. With a mix of witty banter and insightful commentary, they explore how these new storylines reflect current events and the deeper themes of grace, redemption, and moral ambiguity. Grab your headphones and settle in, because this episode promises an engaging and entertaining ride through the freshest geeky content!

Takeaways:

• Daredevil: Born Again season 2 successfully builds on its predecessor, showcasing a clearer vision and more cohesive storytelling that resonates with fans.
• The animation quality in Star Wars: Maul - Shadow Lord is a standout feature, offering stunning visuals that surpass previous Star Wars animated series.
• In the latest What's New(s) episode, the hosts dive deep into the character dynamics, emphasizing the compelling relationship between Maul and his apprentice Devin.
• Kevin, Andy, and Evan share their thoughts on the heavy political undertones of Daredevil: Born Again, making relevant connections to real-world events while navigating the line between fiction and reality.
• The discussion highlights how both shows balance darker themes with character-driven narratives, making them engaging for a wide audience.
• Listeners are encouraged to explore the behind-the-scenes podcast that accompanies Daredevil: Born Again, offering insights into the creative process that shaped its unique storytelling.

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Systematic Geekology

Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.

The Marvel Cinematic Universe will next reveal themselves and their secret identity to the world. We just got another one added to that list and we are going to talk about that tonight along with Star wars, along with some other movies and shows.

This is systematic ecology. We are the priest of the geeks. And we are here with another what's News episode where we talk about all the latest things in geek culture.

I am Kevin Schaefer, and I'm here with two of my favorite geekologists to talk all things geek, all things pop culture. So, Andy Walsh, Evan Garcia, how are you guys doing tonight?

I'm doing pretty well, thank you. How about you?

Doing all right. Andy, I see you're not Daredevil, so good clarification there. But. But, Evan, what about you? You don't.

Evan, you don't have a headline on there, so what will like, are you secretly in disguise to someone?

I am, yes. I'm a secretly disguised as the kingpin. Mario goes when he says boo and then punches the guy.

I cannot wait to talk about that moment because, oh, my gosh, that was wild. Performances across the border in Daredevil Born Again are pretty stellar. I know, but I love that Vincent d' Onofrio got that moment.

We'll definitely talk about it. So awesome. But yeah, so we will be talking about Daredevil Born Again, which just wrapped up its second season.

We're going to be talking about Mall Shadowlord, which just completed its first season, and then several other movie shows and all the things we've been geeking out on. So if you're new here, welcome.

And before we get into the main topics, let's get into a lightning round where we talk about some of the other quick things we've been geeking out on lately. Evan, what. What are some things you've been geeking out on lately?

I've been. I've been kind of watching over. Over my son's shoulder the. The One Piece anime. He's.

He's.

He's really taken to it, and he watch like four or five episodes a day, and so it's like, cool. So. So, so I watch most of them and I'm like, whoa, this is pretty good. So I'm so. I'm so. I'm doing that. I saw Marty Supreme.

So, yeah, that was one that was on my list, like, since the Oscars, and I was not disappointed. It was just what I thought it was. And. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a wild ride.

It.

It. It was like a. A. A period piece. If. If it had A James Gunn soundtrack to it.

So that's. Oh, that's a. That's a. I like it.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, I saw it when it came out, and it was weird how much I like, I did really like it.

I'm like, it's weird to say I enjoyed this because it is one of those. Yes. Like, the protagonist is uncomfortable. Yeah, it's uncomfortable. The protagonist is a horrible character. Intentionally so.

Great performances, but, like, you're not meant to like the guy.

And it's sort of a, like, deconstruction of the sports, like, underdog story, but, you know, where you're not actually rooting for the main character. But it was fascinating. Also, Evan, are you ever going to look at a bathtub the same way again?

Yikes. That was insanity. I didn't know that was coming. Like, I didn't know that could happen. I guess in the 40s, they didn't build buildings.

I, I, that was the craziest thing I've ever seen in a film. I don't want to spoil it, but there's a bathtub scene. It's not like that, people. But there's a bath.

Yeah. No, no, it's not. It's a. There's literally no way to like anything. You would guess you're gonna be wrong.

Like, I had to pause and be like, what the heck am I watching?

I know, I know. That was. That was a theater moment of the year. Yeah. One I will remember forever. But, yeah, awesome. Well, great picks, Evan. Andy, what about you?

What are your lightning round picks tonight?

Yeah, if you did get enough action from Yaga Abdul Mateen II in Wonder Man. He's the action lead of man on Fire on Netflix.

Oh, really?

Series remake of the Denzel Washington movie. Thank you. Which I know that I watched, but I do not recall much about. So I'm not sure how faithful.

I can't tell you how faithful the miniseries is to the movie other than the lead actor busting people up and exposes corruption along the way. Yeah. So if you're looking for that kind of action, definitely dark at times and pretty violent at times.

But if you were looking for a story of corrupt government officials getting their comeuppance, if that's something you feel like you need in your life right now, then there's a dose of that for you. And then they also have the new Charlize Theron film, Apex, which is a take on the most dangerous game thing of humans hunting humans for sport.

But take some different turns from it, but it's mostly just an opportunity for Charlize to show off how awesome she can be as an action hero and, you know, nothing wrong with that either. Plenty of other people get those opportunities, so why not? Why not her and other.

Other folks in addition to your, your Liam Neesons and your Gerald Butlers and whatnot. But yeah, those are, those are my lightning picks for the moment.

Right? No, it was, it was definitely a cinematography style.

All right, cool.

Cool. Yeah, good. Good call.

I do want to check that out.

I did not remember that. But yes, you're.

Right, right. Because I watched the Denzel movie not that long ago and, and it's interesting too because I could see it as a series.

Like there's actually quite a bit of subplots in it and you know, I mean, obviously, you know, he's on multiple missions and everything, but. And I love Yaya Abdul Mateen, so I definitely want to check that out. And Charlie's Theron too.

I mean, like, I, I like, I, I love Furiosa, but I also really.

And I. Anya Taylor Joy did great in that, but after Fury Road, I was like, oh, I want to see Charlie's Throne again, play this role and do more action movies. The Old Guard, she's great too.

And Atomic Bond, if we're, if we're checking off the list of.

Yeah, yeah.

Who was, who was the. The flux. A young flux. Was that her too?

There you go.

Okay.

Okay. Yep. Done a lot. So, yeah, good picks. Awesome. Well, for me.

So I watched the Daredevil season finale yesterday morning because on Tuesday night I was watching a different devil in a movie, if that gives you a hint there. But, but I saw the Devil Wears Prada on Tuesday night and very entertaining though, I have to say.

Like, it needed a trigger warning for any journalist or anyone who works in media because it, like, it leans heavily into modern media culture and how so many publications are being eaten by billionaires and people are being laid off left and right. And I was like, oh, this is anxiety inducing because like, I, I work in media and you know, it's still very entertaining.

I, it's great to see the cast back and, and I, it was, I, I thought the movie is a good blend of nostalgia and also still an original story. Because, like, the original one is based on a novel.

This one was an original story that still credits, like, the author, like, as the, you know, creator of the characters. But. But it reunited the screenwriter and director of the original, got the whole cast back, and has some good new characters.

So it's very, you know, intricately plotted. Obviously. Anne Hathaway and Meryl Streep are great. Emily Blunt. And so, yeah, very entertaining.

But I also was like, this should have come with a little warning at the beginning. Say, like, if you work in media, if you're a journalist, like, just brace yourself because this is going to hit very close to home.

But so that was very entertaining. And then the only other thing I wanted to highlight, I'm still going through it, but I mentioned it, I think on the last what's news?

But I'm watching Monarch Legacy of Monsters, which is the Apple TV series that's set in the universe of the King Kong and Godzilla movies from the last, like 10 years. Not, I say that like, not all of the. There are a lot of Godzilla movies especially, but so it's not in the Godzilla minus one universe.

It's more like a long movie than a show. I mean, the budget is insane, but yeah, I highly recommend.

I mean, Kurt and Wyatt Russell play two versions of the same character, so one older, one younger. And the rest of the cast I really like as well. But yeah, and this season is more focused on Kong, and Kong is my guy.

So I, I really like it this season as a companion piece to Kong Skull Island. So highly recommend that one. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, for all of our.

Whether you're watching here on YouTube or you're listening to this later, we want to thank you all for joining us. If this is your first time, check it out. Systematic ecology. Hey, you know, like, rate, review the show. We really appreciate it.

You can also click on the link in the description to find ways to support us. If you want to be a Fourth Wall subscriber, you can learn how to do all that. And we want to thank one of our supporters tonight, Russell Gentry.

Thank you so much for supporting the show. We really appreciate it. And yeah, you can check out all the. You can get. Check out our Merc. You can connect with us on social media, all of that.

So come geek out with us. We love to have you? All right, well, let's get on to the main topics tonight.

So, Andy, I think you wanted to start with one of yours before we get into Mall and Daredevil. So take us away.

Yeah, I don't have a ton to say, but I just wanted to briefly shout out the miniature wife, Peacock. It's one of the things that they. It's a TV show that they dropped all at once.

And I haven't fully worked my way through it, but a good chunk of the way into it. The basic it's sort of a honey, I shrunk the kids, but with a spouse instead of the kids.

Matthew McFaddy plays a corporate scientist who's trying to develop shrinking technology to make food cheaper to ship or something like that and help feed the world, feed the growing population of the world better or something along those lines. And they've developed the shrink, but not the reverse shrink technology isn't quite perfected yet. And so they're working on that.

And then his wife accidentally gets shrunk and so now she has to navigate life as a 6 inch tall person living in a dollhouse version of their house, inside of their house, and all kinds of honey, I shrunk the kids type shenanigans ensue. And I enjoy because I've been enjoying it because I like when they put sci fi concepts into other genres of story.

So it's not just as much as I love a project Hail Mary or an arrival kind of real sci fi story.

I also like it when you get things like this or what was it about Time, the time travel romantic comedy with Rachel McAdams and Donald Gleason, you know, that kind of thing. You know, just taking different concepts and putting them in different kinds of stories.

But what I find most fascinating about this in a, like, I can't tell if I love it or hate it or I hate to love it or, you know, the cringe feels. Feels fun to experience while watching it.

But their concept of how science is done, the only way that I can think to explain it, it is so, like heightened and stylized and a bit twee that it feels like if Wes Anderson was your lab director. It is not filmed in the style of Wes Anderson.

I don't want to give the impression that you're going to get to see a show that is like if Wes Anderson made a TV show for Peacock, it's filmed in a fairly conventional way. But the way that the laboratory is run in the show, it's just so bonkers. So little relationship to how Actual science labs work.

But yeah, it just feels like if you ask Wes Anderson to figure out how to operate a chemistry lab and you can kind of in the image there, you kind of get a little bit of a flavor of it. They've got people on those library sliding ladders drawing on a giant whiteboard and taking dictation. And there's just this very mannered.

Matthew McFadden's character will dictate an idea and then, then they say, you know, I forget what they say, but it's like, implement it. And they.

And they have to scribble it on the whiteboard and then there's some other command and then somebody else goes and actually mixes the chemicals and it's just quite so. So bizarre. So, yeah. So if you're looking for.

If you didn't know that you needed a Wes Anderson take on science, how science is done inside of a, you know, fairly standard sitcom type program, then here's the show for you. The miniature wife on Peacock. And that's all. That's all I've got. I'm guessing either one of you have.

I love the concept. That's.

I love that.

Yeah.

Love that a lot.

I did not know. Well, I don't have Peacock, so I've not done it. But yeah, this sounds like a really cool concept. And I love that you brought up About Time.

That's like one of my Valentine's Day movies every year.

There you go.

But yeah. Sweet. Evan, any thoughts here?

I wish I had. I wish I had Peacock to watch this.

Yeah. When the, the Olympics rolled around, they had a. They had a deal. It was very cheap for like a year if you paid up front.

So we're okay rolling out the. The residual benefits of that. Right on.

Very cool. I like. I also. Andy, I really appreciate on the PowerPoints you do the, the titles you came. The alternate titles you come up for shows and movies.

These are always very entertaining.

Thank you. You know, I got to keep myself engaged and amused and I'm glad that other people enjoy it as well.

Indeed. Awesome. Well, go check this one out. Great pick, Andy.

Without further ado, let's get into Mall Shadowlord on Disney, which just wrapped up its first season. And just a brief overview of what the series is.

So this takes place about a year after the Clone wars, and this follows Maul as he's building his kind of new criminal empire. Meanwhile, the Empire has taken control of the galaxy. He is no fan of them.

And he also comes into contact with a Jedi and his apprentice and the series is starting to build up to this apprentice named Devin, who will eventually. She was going to become Mal's apprentice, and we'll see how that relationship plays out.

So it's a, it's, what's really interesting is, like, with these 10 episodes, there's not in my mind a ton of, like, plot that happens. It's, I think it's a really great character study. I mean, I love this series.

I'll go ahead and say that, but I thought it was really interesting if I like, because there are a lot of Star wars shows that it's like plot, plot, plot. This one, it's, you know, I mean it. I like the slow build of the relationship between Mal and Devin the most.

Also, I need to go ahead and say just how spectacular the animation is in the series. It rises above, I think, really anything they've done in Star wars animation up until this point. It's so crisp and refined.

And the paintings here, each frame could be on a wall and it would be in an art museum in my mind. So, you know, it's hard to preemptively say if this is like my all time favorite Star wars animated show, but it's certainly up there. Yeah.

I absolutely love these 10 episodes. Really looking forward to see where it goes from here, but. Well, Evan, I know you've watched it, so what are your initial thoughts?

I, I, I can't say anything wrong.

It's, it is.

It exceeded my expectations for Star wars animation and then some. And I don't think there was a bad episode in it. It was great.

So good. And Andy, did you get to watch it? We haven't really talked Star wars animation as much before, so I'm curious.

Yeah, my, you know, I'm about halfway through the season of this one. My experience with Star wars animation has been hit or miss. I have seen all of Rebels, much of Clone Wars.

I've seen some of the bad Batch, so, you know, kind of I've seen some of the Star wars visions, but not all of it. So.

Yeah, there just hasn't quite been time to fit in all of the hours of all the Star wars animations, but I try to at least kind of be aware of different things. Yeah. You know, I think this is an interesting show.

I don't think I'm quite as high on it yet as you guys, but maybe that's just because I haven't seen the whole thing. The visuals are quite striking. To me, it looks like somebody decided to try to adapt the 2D style that we've seen.

In things like the Spider Verse movies and perhaps most closely, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Was it Mutant Mayhem was the name of that one. But that kind of sort of watercolor, fuzzy around the edges style of art.

Taking that 2D style and then mapping that, using that to create the textures for 3D animation, which is an interesting. I've not seen that used elsewhere. Maybe I'm just not watching the right kind of animation. But that seems to me like the step that's being taken here.

And I think it works better in some places than others. I think in some cases it's pretty obvious that it's just a 2D texture on a 3D model. And in other places it really works as an art style.

Like Kevin said. There are definitely some frames that I felt were quite artistic, others that didn't quite work for me as well.

But kudos to them for pushing the envelope, innovating and trying to keep Star wars fresh. So it's not a knock on what they're doing, but maybe some places where the technology hasn't quite caught up to the vision or something like that.

But in terms of the story, the idea of a character in Devon, of somebody who has been let down by institutions and feels like she's not had the opportunity to live up to her full potential and then being tempted, therefore, by what. What Mall has to offer, you know, there's definitely some. Some interesting things there that it's. It's cool to see Star wars exploring.

What I really like too, in addition to Devin, is.

So this was the big fault with the Boba Fett series was, you know, that we were expecting this big crime show with Boba Fett and instead we got like Dances With Wolves, you know, which, like, that's fine with certain characters.

That was not the show, I don't think, to do a sort of like, softer depiction of a character who is literally the most famous bounty hunter in the galaxy. And with Maul, I was really glad that they didn't go that route and try.

Even though, like, he's front and center in the show, they didn't try to make him a hero or anything. Like, they could still make him sympathetic. And yes, he is, like I said, not a fan of the Empire.

He's still out for revenge because of what Sidious did to him. But that doesn't mean he's, you know, going to, you know, go the way of the Jedi or anything like that.

He's like, yeah, as the title implies, it's Shadow Lord. Like, he's the anti hero in the midst of this. And so I really like that they stuck to that.

And, you know, Andy, I know you haven't seen the last few episodes, but they do an excellent job with that in the finale in terms of how he starts to lure Devin over and is. Is very manipulative and cruel and does something with. You've. You've probably seen a major legacy character who appear.

You know, it comes in at the end of the season. But I. You know, I still don't want to spoil it completely for you, but. But yeah, I really like how they handled that in that relationship.

Really well. I mean, he is still mall. He's still evil.

And this also the series, I think, gives a nice, like, glimpse of what could have been with the George Lucas original plans for the sequel trilogy. Because this was the original plan of, like, in. Not in this time period, but in the. After the fall of the Empire, it.

Maul was going to be the central villain of the. Of George Lucas sequel trilogy. And he had an apprentice named Darth Talon.

So we get to see kind of a version of what that might have been with this series.

Yeah, yeah. To. To kind of go off of that.

Like.

Like, they fleshed out. I didn't know that we could flesh out Maul anymore. Then. He was fleshed out.

Like, he's got so many entries in into the saga, and he was a very much sympathetic, a bad guy. Like, when he was training Devon, some of his methods kind of made sense. And I was like. But then.

And then the next line, then he's obsessed, almost kind of like Sisyphus and trying to get revenge to Palpatine. So I'm like, oh, bro, come on, dude. Like. Like, I feel sorry for him almost. But yeah, there was. I think. I think even without the major character that.

That shows up at the end, I think this would have been a solid entry into Star wars animation and into the canon in general. And how they balanced the grittiness and the almost like the linypd blue, kind of pulpy, like, boots on the ground kind of police.

The police show with the allure and the Sith and a Jedi and the training. And I think that was a good balance. And I think if you like one or the other aspects of Star wars, you would like this show.

No, absolutely.

And actually, Andy, I was gonna ask what you think so far of the, like, detective kind of character who is tracking down Ball at the beginning, but not an Imperial officer and that, really? And, like, him and his son and all that. Like, what? Because I. I found that A really cool.

Like, Evan, like you said, a nice addition to the pulpy tone of the story.

Yeah, it's, you know, it's something we saw very differently in Andor the notion that, you know, there are these local security forces or law enforcement forces and how they relate to the Empire. So it was, you know, that it was an interesting kind of development or extension of that idea in a different direction. Yeah.

You know, so far, I think he, you know, Lawson is the character that I. Is the only one that I can kind of say you're rooting for.

Right.

You know, or making maybe a better way to put that is making similar choices to the ones that I think that I would make in the various situations that the characters are. Are confronted with. So that's cool. And then, you know, I think my. But my.

I think my favorite part of that side of the show is Richard Ayoade as Two Boots.

Fantastic.

He's a fun, fun voice actor.

And, you know, we've had a lot of memorable robot characters in the Star wars universe and it's a crowded field and I don't know that Chibuts is necessarily going to be right up there in the pantheon, but it's definitely a fun performance and definitely giving it his best shot to carve out a variation on the theme of that kind of, well meaning, a little bit wound tight kind of robot character.

Mm. And to give him the Cyril Karn kind of moment, like how the, like he changes his view on the Empire. That was surprising.

I was like, wow, I did not expect that from a droid.

And I love when it does that. I mean, like when you really. I was like, humanize the droids.

But yeah, you give them like their own personalities and, you know, and kind of moral conundrums there. But yeah, no, I mean. Hey, Andy. I think, though, you know, everyone loves R2 and Chopper and 3PO, but I think he's got two has got a chance of.

I think we'll definitely see him again. He's. He's easily one of those where, you know, that could be an animated character that, you know, carries over into live action at some point.

Of course. Yeah.

Wonder if, if, if A2 boots will meet the. The voice that he did in the Mandalorian. And I'm blanking on the name now, but he was, but he was a forlorn character and he voiced him too.

So it would be cool to have them both together.

There's. I mean. Yeah, well, I got. And I mean, Mandalorian Grogu comes out a Couple of weeks. So we've got, you know, potential for crossovers there. We'll see.

But yeah, true. But yeah, no, I mean, this series I absolutely loved. I, you know, I, I wish it was longer.

I, who I think I was talking about this with a friend earlier, is that, you know, it's 10 episodes and like I said, you know, plot wise. Yeah, I mean, it's still. There's an arc, but this feels like half a season. And they. I think they did make this in season two back to back.

So I don't think it'll be a long wait or anything. But I almost. I do wish, like. And this, this isn't really a symptom of just this show. This is like TV in general now.

Of the like 8 to 10 episode seasons. We're about to talk to about another one in just a sec.

But like, especially for animation like this, like, I really wish we had gotten a good full 20 episode season here because then we could really seen more here and more of the relationship between Mal and Devin. So it, it has me stoked for season two, but that was the only thing was like, it's already over, you know, right now I like the whole.

Two episodes per week.

That was nice. Yes, that was good.

That was pretty satisfying.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad it wasn't like, as. Oh, if it was only like 20 minutes. I was like, o, no, I need more hair. But yeah.

And especially though what they did drop on Star Wars Day on May 4th, like that. Yeah, that was Jeff's kiss. But. And yeah, these are easily some of the best lightsaber duels I've ever seen in Star wars, which is saying something.

The animation is a good mix between what Clone wars became.

Yeah.

And a Rebels.

So I agree.

It's a perfect mix.

Yeah. And I really like the, like, this planet too. Like, I mean, they like, it really did a good job of like.

Because sometimes like, I mean, the sequel trilogy did this a lot where like they introduced, you know, quote unquote. But. But Right. Yeah, exactly. It was just Tatooine with a different name and they did that a lot.

You know, this one felt, I mean, there were, you know, remnants of stuff we've seen in other kind of like underworld planets. But still this one had its own identity. I love the aesthetic.

I loved, you know, Andy, like you said, there were like, you know, ties to Andor and bad batch and stuff. But yeah, it still had its own unique lens here, so I really liked it. But. Awesome. Well, that is mall.

And now let's get on to the other Disney plus show with a red character, not Bullseye, but although he's got this black suit. This. And both orange. Yes. Yeah. Like, so it's a. It was really fun watching these, you know, every Tuesday and Wednesday for the past few weeks.

It's a lot of fun. But. But Daredevil Born Again also, you know, Andy has it as the title Bullseye Question mark. It is. I mean, I. Bullseye was amazing in the season.

Oh, it's so good. And I love that image there. You pull too of it's got Kingpin towering over and Daredevil kind of emanating in the center there. I love it. But.

Well, anyone who has listened to systematic ecology before, well, they know we're all big Daredevil fans, but Daredevil is my favorite Marvel character.

I've joked before that like, you know, you could have a show where Charlie Cox's Matt Murdock, Daredevil and Vincent d' Onofrio's fist Kingpin could be staring at a wall or playing chess together. And I'd watch it because I love these characters. But. But, you know, we talked about.

Evan, you and I, I think, did the what's News episodes last year when season one was going on. And we did talk a lot about Season one had, you know, a lot of flaws to it. I mean, there was still a lot to love.

But also it was a mixed bag, mainly because of behind the scenes factors that came into play with. There was an original creative team.

Andy has the credits here of Matt Corman and Chris Ord were the original showrunners for Born Again when Disney decided to bring Daredevil back. And it was originally conceived as a political and legal thriller separate entirely from the Netflix series.

And then the actors writer strikes happened and during that time, Feige and company decided to shift and let go of the original showrunners and do a creative overhaul. Brought in Dario Scarpane from the Punisher series to do a revamp of the series and make it actually connected to the Netflix series.

So being a direct continuation.

And so because of that, I mean, as a viewer, even if you didn't know all that, you could see that mixed bag of different creative visions culminating in season one.

What I really love about this season is it is able to really move forward and, you know, clear all that baggage and be more of, you know, a singular vision and connect to the Netflix series and start to bring back old characters like Jessica Jones.

And also we got another fun cameo at the end this one, I think we're going to do full spoilers because I know with Mall since Andy, you hadn't seen all of it. I didn't want to spoil all of it at the end.

But I think for Born Again Season two, if you haven't seen it, we are going to go into heavy spoilers here. So, you know, fair warning, if you want to come back, watch it and then come back later. But, yeah, let's go around.

You know, first, just general thoughts on this season and particularly the season finale that just dropped. Andy, we'll start with you. What were some of your thoughts?

Well, when you were talking about devil wears Prada 2 and the need for a trigger warning about.

For media employees, this one definitely needed a trigger warning for maybe everybody in America or, you know, certainly some groups of people, some communities in the US and elsewhere, because it was very much a thinly veiled take on current events. And that has its pluses and minuses. I think, for me, I think you need a little bit more distance.

I think it's hard to tell a fictional story that comments this directly and mirrors this directly, because you have the elements that just don't map.

Right.

You have this vigilante justice and the dichotomy of.

As an actual person in the real world, I'm not all that big on violence as a solution to things, but as somebody who understands that in visual media, physical interactions are the way that you represent things, because that's visually interesting and that can be a metaphor for conceptual or abstract conflicts of ideas.

But, yeah, so I think there are some tensions when you map the real world this directly in a genre where you still have the elements that don't line up directly. But there was certainly a lot that was good about the show. It's certainly, I think, more.

That's an ambition, and I'd rather see something, Something try something ambitious, then be completely generic or what have you. I think, you know, I missed the bank robbery episode from last season. You know, I would have liked it a little bit more, you know, at some point.

That kind of like pallet cleansing. Let's see Daredevil get a more straightforward win here. You know, that was a.

That was a nice feature of last season that I think we could have used in this season. And personally, I would have rather have seen White Tiger get to do more of the things that Bullseye got to do in the story.

I get where kind of closing the loop on everything that happened with Foggy makes a little bit more narrative sense.

But I didn't really need to see Quasi Redemption arc or whatever they were going for with Bullseye, and I felt like they underserved White Tiger, and I would have rather seen her get more to do as the season went on. She kind of just showed up in a few bits here and there, and I would have liked to have seen her be a more integrated part of the show the way that.

And I think there was a lot that Bullseye was up to that she could have done something similar instead, certainly like protecting the governor of New York and things like that. So, yeah, you know, it's doing what the show does well, what it had done well in the past.

It's, you know, it's doing that even better and continuing in the logical direction of where last season kind of started things out. So if that's what you're looking for, it succeeds. But, yeah, those were my kind of quibbles or things that I could have maybe tweaked a little bit.

No, very valid points. And I'm glad you brought up White Tiger, because I was thinking about this season.

I thought they did a really great job with all of the supporting characters, but I re.

Watched season one right before, and some of the characters were a little underbelt then, but I thought they did a great job with, like, who's now White Tiger, now the.

Like of both her performance and this idea of, you know, the niece of the original or the daughter of the original White Tiger, you know, taking up the mantle. And. Yeah, I. I agree. Like, I was. I like to see her show up in the finale here in the big fight scene.

But, yeah, there was an opportunity to do a little more there, but it did juggle a big ensemble and. Wait, so sorry, was. Was she Hector's niece or daughter? I can't remember.

No, I. I thought you were right when you said niece.

It was. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I would. Because, like, it was because. Yeah, that's right. They did both. Because it. Because BB Is also Ben Yurik's knee. So that.

That's why I was. I was like. Was it? Yeah, but. But yes. So she was great. And yeah, I mean, the Bullseye arc was really interesting.

I. I, like, I. I also kind of preferred, like, just leave him as kind of a psychopath. I think you don't really need a redemption there. I feel like it was more.

That was a great episode with the foggy flashbacks, and I think it was more in service of Matt's character than anything. And, you know, bringing back to, like, the themes of grace and mercy. And how that set up the finale really well. But I also.

Well, while we're talking about Bullseye too, as far as like, where he's gonna go after this, I think they're setting it up for like an actual Thunderbolts team because I, I love Thunderbolts last year, but they made it instead, you know, New Avengers and the Thunderbolts in the comics are typically more villains and anti heroes.

So I think, you know, with the Mr. Charles character, I think he's kind of starting his own team there and it could be, you know, whether they call it Thunderbolts, whether they call it Dark Avengers, something like that, you know, more government black ops. So yeah, there's like a. But. Evan, what were your thoughts on this season?

Overall thoughts? It was very similar to me with how I, how I process the, the Star wars acoly. At the beginning I was like, what is going on? I don't think I like this.

I really don't think I like this at all. It was heavy handed in like what you said in the, in the, in the portraying of the, of the current events. And I was like, I'm not here for this.

I mean, I kind of agree, but I'm not here for it.

But then I took your suggestion, Kevin, when we first, when we first started and I watched couple episodes of the, of the podcast that they do after the show.

Yeah, yeah.

On, on, on Disney plus. And then, then what helped me, what, what helped me click for this show and I figured out what, what was, what was bothering me about it.

I kept, I kept feeling that, that it was like it was a Christian movie, but it was trying to be a film, if you know what I mean. Like, didn't have any bite to it. It didn't have the rawness of, of the other, of these other seasons. And I was very disappointed.

But then when the directors, when they, when they elaborated on their camera styles for this season and their language and the whole setup that they had, it clicked for me and because what they did was they took very, very basic camera styles that like you learn in, in, in, in a film school. And they didn't put the edge on them like what other films do. They just like they did Dutch angles and quirky lighting. That's very obvious.

And, and they took one. They took the cynicism out of the visual language of what was happening. And to me, I felt that's what that was missing.

But then as the series went on, they put the cynicism kind of back in, but not, but not in the Language in the visual language. So that helped me really enjoy it. And that episode where she. Where we're not sure if. If Vanessa's dying. And there's so many parallels of.

Of the theme of grace going on. There's. There's like four different storylines going on, and it's. And it's all how we see grace and how we receive grace and if we let it.

And it was such a powerful episode. I thought. I thought they did fantastic with that. And from there, and I was able to enjoy the show, like I said, with. Like I said, like, Icali.

Once I saw what they were trying to do, and I set away kind of my bias. I was. I was all in for it. And there were some real cool moments.

Yeah, really good points. I mean, I like I. And I. In terms of. Yeah, it's.

It's not subtle, particularly in the first half with the, you know, comparisons to the modern political climate. And I mean, you know, like. Like, it was. Because, I mean, especially this season was being written and shot, you know, last year. So, you know, it. It.

There's no subtlety here. Yeah, yeah. I mean, because, like, I think, like, for instance, one battle after another, like, people were like, oh, this.

So that was a case of, you know, life imitating art, and it just coming at the right time, this one. Yes, it very much leaned into our current climate, current events, and. But, yeah, I think it got deeper as it went along.

And now the Vanessa episode was great. I also. I mean, in terms of visually going. Getting into the finale, so, you know, Matt Murdock reveals his secret identity in a courtroom.

Great scene, too, because I like that, you know, the. The final battle between him and Kingpin isn't fought, you know, with fists. It's. It's in the courtroom.

And that's the first time that they actually come head to head in that atmosphere. And then, you know, they still have a sort of fight at the end, but. But it's more brief that. That's more the massacre of the resistance. And.

But I would. So at the very end, you know, Fist takes the deal, which we can get into, too. I. I was debating whether that was, like, too unrealistic.

After he kills people, like, with full witnesses, does the, like, you know, just bullseyes through pun intended a crowd and, um. Kills multiple people with witnesses. Um, and then, you know, he's. His stipulation is that he has to leave New York and never come back.

And then Matt goes to jail for crimes as Daredevil. But I really like the final visual motif with the juxtaposition between Matt in prison and he smiles, and then Fisk is on a beach and he's sad and.

Yeah, he hates it. And so, I mean, like, I think, because that was a punishment for him, because it's. It mirrors like, Napoleon being exiled.

Like, he's someone who can't live a normal life and can't find peace, especially now with Vanessa dead. And so that was his punishment.

And I think Matt is smiling because while he's imprisoned, he knows he did the right thing, and he did the right thing to save the city. And, you know, and also, it makes me very excited for what they're going to do next season.

And if you read the comics, like, the Ed Brubaker run where Matt's in prison is great. And so I'm really excited to see how that plays out.

I heard that there's an arc that the Lion Fist takes on the Daredevil is etiquette. Well, that would be pretty sick. I would love to see that. And that might kind of redeem the character a little bit.

And, I mean, I know Fen Jones is waiting for his.

Yeah.

Chance of redemption here because now they brought everyone back except him because we got the Luke Cage cameo at the end. We had Jessica Jones in the last couple episodes, but poor Finn is over there, not to be heard of yet.

And I know Iron Fist was not good, but I do hope they can redeem that character. We'll see. But. But, yeah, I, I agree. Hey, like, I'm glad you said that about. And I, I. With the podcast. Yeah.

If you want a really good intro insight into the creative process here. I thought they did a really good job with that show because it wasn't just, you know, PR for that. Like, they did it.

I liked how they had a variety of cast and crew members come on, talk about their creative processes. I mean, they had everyone from Dario Scarlet Plan is on several episodes.

And Brad Winderbaum, the head of television, Sanaa Ahmad, another one of executive producers and multiple cast members. They had the Newton brothers who did the score. It was. It's a really good. Where they talk about. And they.

And they talk about some of the original versions and what went through in the rewrites. That was all fascinating. I. I eat that stuff up. So it was a True.

Yeah, it was pretty much a weekly schedule for me the past, like, couple months where I'd watch their edible Tuesday nights and then watch the podcast the next morning. And yeah, I really like seeing all that. But I agree. I mean, these were great points for both of you.

I. I agree it definitely had its flaws, but I think I enjoyed it a lot more than season one. I think the best season of Daredevil remains season three. I think that's probably the best written in turn.

You know, it did great job with the characters, and I especially like the Karen Page episode in that one. That one just had me really riveted throughout. So I think that's still the gold standard for me.

And my main hope for next season is that as much as I love Fisk, I know I was just, you know, like, going on about. I also want them to have a different conflict and. And I want Matt to be in prison for a good part of the season, if not the whole season.

I think they could do really interesting things there. But yeah, I. I hope. I think this was a satisfying and to this story, at least for now.

I mean, you know, he's gonna come back eventually, but I want to see other rogues and other conflicts arise in the wake of the mayor fist. And also maybe we'll find out in Brand New Day where Spidey and Punisher were when New York was literally waiting for that.

Yes, the Punisher could have just showed up and kind of, you know, deus mucking on this thing, but that. That didn't happen.

And we're getting the Punisher special next week.

Next week, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm very excited for that. But yeah, awesome.

I love that, that, that scene in the. In the diner where. Where, where. Where Bullseye kills everybody. The. All the ICE agents, right? Uh huh.

Yes. With Task Force. What did those have to do with ice? What are you talking about?

Oh, sorry. Icy.

Sorry.

Yeah. Two milkshakes. Milkshakes. No, but that scene, I loved it because. Because.

And, And I wasn't the only one that picked up on this, but it was a very Mystery Man. The Blue Rajah from Mystery man is where my mind went. But with more lethal or just more lethal. And I thought that was fantastic.

And he's one of the good guys now, I guess.

Also, in terms of supporting characters, one of the one. One of my favorites. And it was like, you know, a heartbreaking but, you know, satisfying from a story angle, death.

But Michael Gandolfini as Daniel Blake, I really, I mean, I loved This. I mean, like, us. And actually, that was one where they talk about the podcast.

They originally weren't gonna kill him off, but then they realized, like, well, he makes a big sacrifice. Like, he's gonna have to. He's in the devil's lair here. He's gonna have to pay.

And so they didn't want to because they loved working with Michael Gandolfini. They loved the character. But as soon as he does, you know, risk himself to save Bibi, there was no way they could leave.

You know, like, Buck wasn't gonna let him live. And that was a heartbreaking scene. But I.

You know, that was a character where, like, I liked what they were doing in season one, but it was another one where it was like, you know, with all the other stuff going on season one, it just kind of felt like sort of in the background. I really like the agency they gave him. And you weren't sure he real.

I could have seen it going either way in terms of, like, I genuinely, up until that moment, you know, I'm like, he could do the right thing, but he could also totally betray BB I could see either happening. And I liked how it was handled.

And the. And something else that I like was the. Of the origin story of the female muse.

Yeah, her.

Her turn, where she accepts and the external mask becomes what she really feels inside. I thought that was pretty well done,.

And I. I hope they do that. Right. I was a little. That was the only thing where, like, when Heather puts on the mask, I was like, oh, this could be.

I don't know, Like, I mean, what's gonna happen? Just only because, like, the crazy female character, particularly Marvel, has been, like, a trope that they've done, and I.

You know, I mean, I hope they do it well, and I don't. I wonder if it's gonna be like, she's gonna go after vigilantes, you know, Like, I mean, that's gonna be her thing stick, you know, so we'll see. But.

But I like that actor a lot, so I. I hope they. I mean, that's not a thing that happens in the comics, so I'm curious what they'll like, how they'll do that with an original story like that, but.

Yeah. Andy, any other thoughts here?

You know, I forget if I've actually talked about on the podcast or just with you guys off the podcast, but, man, I'm still struggling with believing that that is how Vanessa went down.

We did talk about this. Yeah.

Yeah.

That just really kind of undercut the drama of a Lot of what they were doing there in the middle of the season.

For me, you know, it also was a bit of perhaps a fridging of that character who I thought was a more interesting female villain than Heather's turn as a future muse or whatever's going on there.

I thought her compromises with her values, but also wanting to be in this relationship with Fisk and how that all developed, I thought was an interesting story and not one you see a lot of. And so I was disappointed that that came to an end the way that it did. But, yeah, you know, there's a lot of.

A lot of interesting things to pick up next season and look forward to seeing. Hopefully. Hopefully done well.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Now, we did talk about that, both on and off the air last time, about how, yeah, Bullseye gets thrown off a building, Punisher has endured every, like, potentially lethal wound known to man, and then Vanessa gets a piece of glass, like, not even wedged all the way in her head, but that kills her.

I'm not even convinced that would mean stitches, let alone brain surgery.

I was about to say. I. When I was a kid, I fell on bleachers and I mean, yeah, I needed stitches, but, like, you know, I mean, I was fine.

Yeah.

What helped me with that was, is, was that. That, that it was. That it was Fisk's fault. It was Wilson's fault.

Right, right.

That's what happened.

Yeah.

Because he didn't shatter it then.

Yeah, it was the. I mean, I get it from that reason. And I don't know, maybe we can excuse it if, like, it came from Bullseye. I don't know. But. Yeah, but still.

So all in all. Yeah, no, I mean, still very strong season for me. Like. Yeah. I mean, I love their double. The characters. I. I hoping for another good one next year.

And that's the other thing is, I'm really glad we don't have to wait forever in between seasons. Like, even though it's a big budget, I think they're committed to an annual release as, you know, as long as they can.

So I look forward to seeing more and then. And to see Punisher next week and then him again in Spider Man.

Was this the beginning of the next phase or.

That's a good question. Man, I've lost track of trying to keep.

I used to keep stuff with Phases in the early days, but now I don't even like, because, yeah, I think Fantastic Four, if I'm not mistaken, was the start of the newest one. Okay, yeah. Yeah. But it. I mean, the phases used to kind of mean something now they're just like every few movies and shows.

But yeah, so I, I don't really give them a whole lot of merit now. But yeah, so awesome. Why don't. We could talk about this all day. But guys, this was great.

And so yeah, just like check out Daredevil if you haven't already. And before we go, if we want to give just recommendations either about this topic or something completely unrelated, I'll get mine real quick.

So one of the movies I'm very excited about coming up is Disclosure Day, the new Spielberg alien movie.

Wild.

Oh, it looks so good.

And if you've never seen it, one of my all time favorite Spielberg movies that I just re watched last night in preparation for Disclosure Day is Close Encounters of the third Kind. That was sort of his like first big sci fi movie before E.T. Yeah, if you've ever seen that. It's a great alien contact film.

Of course, an amazing score by John Williams. But yeah, that one is just a really fascinating. Yeah, it's not a lot of dialogue. It's very character driven and you know, the spectacle is.

Is what you would expect from a Spielberg blockbuster. But especially before Disclosure Day comes out, I would highly recommend seeking that out if you've never seen it. So Andy, what about you?

Do you have a recommendation for tonight?

Since we're talking behind the scenes podcast. Once We Were Spacemen, the Nathan Fillion and Alan Tudyk podcast. Oh, cool.

I just started digging into that about six episodes in and it's a lot of fun and they have a lot of insightful things to share, both for people who are in those kind of creative industries, but also I think more generally. So not just, you know, two guys rambling, but some, some really helpful things to say.

Right on. Oh, I'll add that to my list. Cool. Evan, what about you?

So is that the one that's like in between Empire and Jedi?

No, this is the Rise of or the Battle of Jakku. So it's like.

Yeah, yeah.

I kind of compare it to like the crucifixion, like right after Jesus died and then like what happened in between, like what Paul did and what. What happened after the resurrection. So yeah, so yeah, good pick.

There have been some great Star wars comics, particularly in the last decade. So. Yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, for our listeners, viewers out there thank you so much for joining us.

And again, check out the links in the description to find out ways to support the show. You can like rate, subscribe, review. We really appreciate it and come geek out with us. Join us on social media.

Evan runs a lot of our social media pages and posts the memes all the time. So a lot of fun there. And remember, we are all a chosen people. A geekdom of priests. Take care everyone.